The Official Geno Thread

[Tiamat]

Tiamat, Mario Hoops is a sports game. It's obscure and if you're going to argue halfa** characters, it shows that you're not taking this seriously. Waluigi=Moogle which is sad.

I've stated the moogle as an example. It still represents SQUARESOFT a lot more than Geno does. Squaresoft isn't going to want some guy they never plan on using again that isn't even associated with them (Geno is associated with Mario, not Squaresoft. Geno being in Smash Bros. gives Squaresoft only limited exposure at best) over a character that gives exposure to both them as a company and to their flagship series. So they're going to press for a Final Fantasy character instead. And when it comes to the bargaining table in that situation, they're the ones in the most advantageous position.

They have practically nothing to lose if Nintendo leaves with no deal.

Assuming Square is looking for maximizing profit or exposure (a business maximizing profit and exposure? Unheard of!), only three results can come out of that room. Squaresoft can either charge Nintendo a crapload of money for Geno, have Nintendo have a Final Fantasy character instead (and maybe charge a crapload of money for that), or have Nintendo leave the room.

The first result gives Square tons of money.

The second result gives Square representation of them as a company instead of some character who's more associated with Mario than with Squaresoft.

The third result, Square loses pretty much nothing either because Nintendo was only wiling to pay pennies for Geno or because Geno wouldn't have given them much exposure anyways.

In all three results, only the first results in Geno being in the game. And I doubt Nintendo will be willing to pay that much money for him for reasons already stated.

it shows that you're not taking this seriously.

At least I'm serious enough to actually read the posts (such as the part where I've stated 'any Final Fantasy character" and thus was obviously only using the moogle as an example. That you've failed to notice that shows you aren't reading everything, which shows I'm actually more serious than YOU.)

 

[#HBC | marshy]

They DO have a lot to lose, and that's tons of money. They WILL want to put in Geno if they're not going to use him again.

Think of it like this, Square will be thinking "Well, we can use Geno(a character we may possibly never use again) and make a lot of money. Or we can use (put random FF hero/character here) and make Sony bitter towards us, but we still make a lot of money....well since Sony is our main company, it'd be better if we went with the first one so we please Nintendo AND Sony AND make a lot of money!"

Sorry, but saying "Toad/Moogle/random FF hero deserves to be in over Geno" is usually taken as an insult.

 

[bbb]

Tiamat, are you suggesting they DO plan on using some random FF hero again, because it isn't going to be from VII or anything, it'll probably end up obscure at best.

 

[Tiamat]

They DO have a lot to lose, and that's tons of money. They WILL want to put in Geno if they're not going to use him again.

Think of it like this, Square will be thinking "Well, we can use Geno(a character we may possibly never use again) and make a lot of money. Or we can use (put random FF hero/character here) and make Sony bitter towards us, but we still make a lot of money....well since Sony is our main company, it'd be better if we went with the first one so we please Nintendo AND Sony AND make a lot of money!"

Assuming Square is looking for maximizing profit or exposure (a business maximizing profit and exposure? Unheard of!), only three results can come out of that room. ***Squaresoft can either charge Nintendo a crapload of money for Geno***, have Nintendo have a Final Fantasy character instead (and maybe charge a crapload of money for that), or have Nintendo leave the room.

***The first result gives Square tons of money.***

The second result gives Square representation of them as a company instead of some character who's more associated with Mario than with Squaresoft.

The third result, Square loses pretty much nothing either because Nintendo was only wiling to pay pennies for Geno or because Geno wouldn't have given them much exposure anyways.

In all three results, only the first results in Geno being in the game. And I doubt ***Nintendo will be willing to pay that much money for him for reasons already stated.***

it shows that you're not taking this seriously.

At least I'm serious enough to actually read the posts ( hat I've been able to respond to you simply by repeating the post I just made shows you aren't reading everything, which shows I'm actually more serious than YOU.)

 

[#HBC | marshy]

To answer your question Tiamat, a lot would. Geno hasn't played a major role for 10(11?) years, and the SNES era was one the greatest in the video game market. SMRPG was one of the greatest games in the greatest eras, and Geno was one of the greatest characters in one of the greatest games in one of the greatest eras.

Some older videogame players still play games from the SNES. Fire Emblem, Mario side-scrollers, and Mario RPG are just some examples of the highpoints in some of Nintendo's key franchises. Those games were best on the SNES, and some people were dissapointed by the N64 and dissapointed by Nintendo. Therefore, bringing back one of their most memorable characters makes them want to try the game.

Trust me, Nintendo has lost a LOT of fans over the years.

I already answered that question, and you have to stop repeating your points when they were already shot down. Thinking that an FF character would cost less than Geno is just plain silly.

 

[Tiamat]

I already answered that question, and you have to stop repeating your points when they were already shot down. Thinking that an FF character would cost less than Geno is just plain silly.

I've repeated my post because I've already addressed that but you still fail to see it. If Square wants a Final Fantasy character in the game instead (almost 100% certain given what an FF char represents and what Geno represents)), then Square will charge a lot for Geno because they don't want Geno in the game. In this case, the end result is Nintendo pays Square lots of money, Square gets an FF character in the game, or Nintendo ends up not paying pennies for Geno, of which Squaresoft loses very little.

Tiamat, are you suggesting they DO plan on using some random FF hero again, because it isn't going to be from VII or anything, it'll probably end up obscure at best.

Nintendo Final Fantasy Hero = From one game
Geno = From one game


Nintendo Final Fantasy Hero = From old days of the Super NES
Geno = From old days of the Super NES


Nintendo Final Fantasy Hero = Obscure but still popular, because it's Final Fantasy and Final Fantasy still sold well even back then
Geno = Obscure but still popular, because it's Mario and Mario still sold well even back then


Final Fantasy Hero = Star of his game
Geno = Not Star of his game


Nintendo Final Fantasy Hero = Probably appeared on a GBA remake by now
Geno = Did not appear on a GBA remake by now


I'd say a Final Fantasy hero is no less obscure than Geno. Anyone who says otherwise truly is allowing their love of Geno to make them underestimate the popularity of even old-school Final Fantasy



Now here's another factor along with all of the above that Squaresoft will likely consider.

Nintendo Final Fantasy Hero = Commonly associated with Squaresoft
Geno = Commonly associated with Mario

 

[GenG]

Friends or not, Squaresoft is a business. They will want a character in the game who suits their business needs the best. And for that, a character that adds exposure to their flagship franchise does that a lot more than a character they likely will never use again.

Furthermore, from a business perspective, Nintendo currently needs Square more than Square needs Nintendo. As I've stated before and must constantly reiterate, Square is in the most powerful best business negotiating position you can possibly be in when it comes to this situation.

(that and Nintendo will probably benefit more from a Final Fantasy character being in the game than Geno as well. Will you NOT buy this game if Geno isn't in it? I find that doubtful. You and most other Geno fans will be buying this game whether Geno is in it or not. But sheer basic logic makes me know for sure that there are many Final Fantasy fans out there who don't plan on getting Smash Bros. Brawl. They're two completely separate fanbases!. But will at least some huge Final Fantasy fans buy this game if a Final Fantasy character is in it? Well, to give you a hint, my brother plans on buying Mario Hoops after seeing that moogle in it...)

If a company have bought a part from another company, the first copmany has some rights and decision over that company, and Nintendo does by having a part of Square in their pocket with the Games Developer Studio. Nintendo needs Squaresoft? Not at all. Nintendo has Pokémon, the best selling franchise in the entire world. Has Mario and Zelda.

First, Square contacted Nintendo in 2002, because they got bankrupted by the Spirits Within movie. Hironobu Sakaguchi (former Square president) was fired (or left out). Nintendo said: "Hmmm, this could get good if these guys want to make games for us...". So Square started to develop games for GBA. But Nintendo, being the clever one, "suggested" Square to make games for GC if they wanted to keep making games for GBA... so the Games Developer Studio was born. I'll stress again the "Square contacted Nintendo" thing.

Games developed for Nintendo consoles since 2002:

- Final Fantasy Crystal Chronicles (GC)
- Final Fantasy Crystal Bearers (Wii~Next release)
- Final Fantasy Ring of Fate (DS~Next release)
- Final Fantasy I+II (GBA)
- Final Fantasy IV (GBA)
- Final Fantasy V (GBA~Next release)
- Final Fantasy VI (GBA~Next release)
- Final Fantasy III (DS~Next release)
- Sword of Mana (GBA)
- Children of Mana (DS)
- Kingdom Hearts Chain of Memories (GBA)
- Mario Hoops 3 on 3 (DS~Next release)
- Hanjuku Hero (DS)

And Enix games, since they merged:

- Slime Quest (GBA)
- Slime Quest 2 Rocket Slime (DS)
- Dragon Quest Monsters Caravan Hearts (GBA)
- Dragon Quest Monsters Joker (DS~Next release)
- Dragon Quest Swords (Wii~Next release)

None of these games have beat the the top notch franchises, being Mario & Luigi Superstar Saga the best selling Nintendo RPG game (apart from Pokémon) with 1.85 million worlwide. No Square game released on Nintendo consoles POST Gamecube era have sold that. You can stick, however, with past Final Fantays sales from SNES, who were pretty good but nothing impressive, being FF6 the best one with 2.5 million.

Does Nintendo need Square THAT BAD? I think that's the reverse. Nintendo is the best seller company worldwide, while Square is not.

Not including Geno in Brawl won't break the relationship. Nintendo isn't going to break the relationshiop just because Squaresoft refused Geno. Nintendo *NEEDS* Squaresoft more than Squaresoft needs Nintendo.

Nintendo top franchises beat FF as I said in terms of sales, even in N64. Nintendo has other RPG makers working for him apart from Square.

No they don't. First, although we can only SPECULATE on the PS3 now, it's not too hard to figure out where Squaresoft is throwing their speculation. Last I checked, Square isn't planning THEIR HUGE RIDICULOUSLY POPULAR UBER FLAGSHIP FINAL FANTASY SERIES to be on the Wii.

You ckecked wrong: Final Fantasy Crystal Bearers for Wii, along with the Ring of Fates for DS. Conectivity between them.

Nintendo isn't going to break the relationship just because Square refused to allow them to have one character in a game. That's not how you run a business.

I think Nintendo has the upper hand in this one...

Square is not including FF characters "as a thanks" to Nintendo. It's THEIR game. Including FF characters raises THEIR sales. If anything, including FF characters is "as a thanks" to themselves,.

Nintendo could lend the franchise to another company, like Namco (Mario Baseball), Hudson (Mario Party) and others. Square included these characters because Nintendo accepted.

Look at what you just said! Your First Paragraph + Your Second Paragraph = Square deciding on someone else for Brawl besides Geno.

A moogle is not random (Moogles are iconic, recurring, and popular. To the point where Square is having one in Mario Hoops). TONS of insanely popular FF characters are not random. And ALL of them dont' fall into the trap of your second paragraph like Geno does.

My second paragraph was about Square deciding other character for Brawl apart from generic ones like moogles, cactuars, chocobos or onion knights. And since it's A NINTENDO GAME, and since no one of these characters have known combat abilities, they should stick to main ones, being Cloud the most recognizable, but again, he, as most FF main characters, are Sony only. But again (omg redundance), Snake isn't the most Nintendo friendly character
ever.
But of course, Geno has more chances that them. He has met a lot of requeriments: The last one wether Sakurai being capable of get the rights or not.

 

[bbb]

Commonly associated with Mario = Better chance of being in a formerly Nintendo exclusive title

Yessss... my 69th post

 

[#HBC | marshy]

Whoever said they wanted a FF hero to represent them?

You basically said Square doesn't care about anything but money, this way they could have what you call an "obscure" character AND make money. You've basically given reasons on why they're equal(which isn't even true) not why they're greater.

You should just give up now, you've repeated your points(and have them shot down) over and over again.

 

[Tiamat]

*yawn* Fine, whatever you think. I'm just going to wait until Mario Hoops 3 on 3, and if Geno is not in that game, I'll come back here, mention it, get "shot down" again, and shrug. Perhaps a year or so from then, Brawl will be out, and if Geno is not in it, by then so much time has passed that it wouldn't even be worth the rubbing of it in.

Or maybe Geno will be in that game and everyone will cheer that I was wrong and eagerly anticipate him in Brawl (I too from then on will decide he has a good chance). But if I had to bet on one or the other, I'd bet on the former.

Either way, until then, feel free to think you've shot me down and declare victory. In your mind and in the mind of all the Geno lovers, you'd be right after all. Not that it'll matter in the end for any of us.

 

[bbb]

I don't get why Mario Hoops has such weight to it

 

[#HBC | marshy]

Actually, if Geno wasn't in Brawl, chances are Square weren't repped in Brawl, therefore it wouldn't make any sense of you to come back here. Then again, even if you're right it's not exactly mature to come back and say to everybody that you were right.

Whatever, but I guess this debate is over for now?

 

[Tiamat]

Actually, if Geno wasn't in Brawl, chances are Square weren't repped in Brawl, therefore it wouldn't make any sense of you to come back here. Then again, even if you're right it's not exactly mature to come back and say to everybody that you were right.

I'm of the firm belief that it's never mature to specifcally say you're right as a way to try to close a debate before final results are in. This includes but is not limited to saying "You were proven wrong. This debate is over", "Everyone disagrees with you", and "you were shot down".

And Square not being repped in Brawl could potentially be Result Number 3 that I mentioned.

 

[Haruno Kotetsu]

Guess so, it's been dragging on forever and I'm just watching because my attention span equals up to 4 seconds. o-o

 

[smashman90]

It really wouldn't bother me if Geno is in or not as long as he's good in the game if he's in it. Besides, if there is going to be more smash bros. games then Geno will have another chance at making it as well as other characters that got shot down.

 

[#HBC | marshy]

I wasn't trying to close this debate, you made it seem like it was over.

You may or may not be wrong, but you were indeed shot down with your ideas.

Did you notice that barely anyone liked your ideas?

 

[bbb]

Mannnnnnnnnnnnnn.... Page 35 here we come!

Oh, and, BUMP

 

[Tiamat]

GenG: Dude, just because Nintendo outsells Square on Nintendo systems doesnt mean that Square needs Nintendo more. In fact, none of what you said makes any actual business policy sense or uses any actual BUSINESS reasoning. What's with you talking about nintendo owning a part of Square when Square owns 49% of the stock in Game Designers Studio and a single Square developer owns the other 51%? Do you even know what ownership IS in the business world? What part of *regular* Final Fantasy did you not understand when you brought up Crystal Chronicles for the Wii?

Bah, nevermind. There's a reason why business is business and not everyone can do it.

Did you notice that barely anyone liked your ideas?

I didn't just notice. I was absolutely 100% in complete shock and awe that a bunch of Geno fans didn't like the idea that Geno's chances for Brawl might be low.

Blew my mind, it did.

 

[#HBC | marshy]

Actually we proved that his chances were good, it's just that you feel a need to act like you know everything about business which is why this has been going on for 4 pages.

 

[magar]

Magar, STFU.

My case against Geno is based on Sakura's statement that only 1-2 more 3rd party characters will be in brawl.

Sonic, of course, is the obvious choice, due to a 15 year (16, by the time Brawl is releaced) rivalry with Nintendo. It is possible that he could be the ONLY third party character, aside from snake.

For that last, optional 3rd party slot, there is a competition between Megaman, Geno, and Simon Belmount, with Sora a distant 4th. (he's on the list on a technicality, due to KH:CoM, but he does bring Squaresoft associations to Brawl)

Megaman is an icon. He's been everywhere, for longer than Sonic has been around. 90% of the gaming crowd has played at least one megaman game, and EVERY gamer knows who he is.

Simon Belmount is as old as Megaman, and reps a franchise as well known and even more loved than Megaman. However, with the passage of time, Simon himself has become increcingly obscure, as Alucard and now Soma Cruz steal his limelight.

Geno is a cult classic. Everyone who played SMRPG seems to have fallen in love with the character, but relativly few people who HAVN'T played even know who he is.

Sora is a borderline choice, only on one Nintendo game, with several games on a competing company's machine. However, his high profile would make his inclusion draw in the Square-Enix crowd. (I mean, let's face it, the PS2 had MANY more supporters than the Cube, and this would be a way to co-op some of them for the Wii)

Based on personal fame, Series fame, and Nintendo associations, Megaman wins the pot, followed by Simon, who lacks the same Personal fame. Sora has Personal AND Series fame, but lacks any major Nintendo association. Geno, however, has little fame outside his cult, but is dearly loved within his circles.

If there was enough 3rd party character slots for all of them, I'd love to see them all. But since Sakura has put limits in place, I only see Sonic and possibly Megaman getting into brawl.

Please Dont Flaim Me

As I Did Some Research, Geno Is A Verry Unique Character That Needs Some Respect,
In His 2 GAMES, He Had Big Parts & I Think "Started" The Legendary History Of RPG
Its Been Sad Since The RPG Section Has Been Down
Geno Is A Cheracter In History That A lot Of People Can Relate To
If You've Ever Playes SMRPG All The Way Through, You Would Know!
& I Was An *** To Dought Him
I Never Played The ****ing Game because I was do ***** To Try It
& People Who Are At A Dislike Of Me, Shark X, Marshigio, McFox exc.
McFox I Deserved Those Two Spam Points because I was Trying To Be A Badass, But Really Im Just A Average Man Living In A Low Life, Its Like Sometimes I Dont Have A Life, And I Know It Will Be Hard To Believe Me, But Im Going To Stop Being an ******* And Such A ********., So To Prevent Anymore Spam, Please PM Me & We Can Disscuss The Post On Topic

Truly Sorry,

Magar

 

[Tiamat]

Actually we proved that his chances were good, it's just that you feel a need to act like you know everything about business which is why this has been going on for 4 pages.

Gasp! You are totally right! You've proven his chances (you said so, yourself!) and a lot of other Geno fans agree with you!

This is totally enlightening for me!

 

[Haruno Kotetsu]

I didn't just notice. I was absolutely 100% in complete shock and awe that a bunch of Geno fans didn't like the idea that Geno's chances for Brawl might be low.

Blew my mind, it did.

Hey, whatever happens, happens right?
If he's in, I hope they remember the SMRPG days and give him a cool movelist.

 

[#HBC | marshy]

Way to make this thread suck Tiamat, it was actually intelligent in here for a while.

 

[GenG]

You are trying to put the Geno issue as another Godfather movie. It's not like that.

Geno appeared as a cameo in Mario & Luigi, so wow, that was a bunch of $$$$$ there! I'm sure Square blackmailed Nintendo for that.

 

[magar]

Well, If You Hate Geno, Don't Post Endless post About it please

 

[Haruno Kotetsu]

I thought they gave Squaresoft credit in the end of that game.

 

[Tiamat]

Geno appeared as a cameo in Mario & Luigi, so wow, that was a bunch of $$$$$ there! I'm sure Square blackmailed Nintendo for that.

Mario & Luigi =/= Super Smash Bros. Brawl. It's a cmpletely different set of circumstances and connotations.

Well, If You Hate Geno, Don't Post Endless post About it please

I imagine the title of "Official Geno Thread" implies this is a thread where you're supposed to go to talk about Geno, including when you don't think he has good chances for the game (by the way, I never said I hated him). As of currently, I can't find a significant number of "The Official Hate [insert random character here]" threads in existance at Smash Boards to prove things otherwise.

 

[GenG]

I thought they gave Squaresoft credit in the end of that game.

They did, but that wasn't enough. The money Nintendo gave to Square wasn't enough and so they gave Square the Mario Basketball licence. They still owe money to Square.

If they want Geno in Brawl... omg, maybe Nintendo will be sold to Square and Smash Bros will be part of Square franchises. Who knows.

Mario & Luigi =/= Super Smash Bros. Brawl. It's a cmpletely different set of circumstances and connotations.

Obviously, if you are asking for Geno, you are asking for a voice, music, stages and several relatives to Mario RPG. It's a pack.
And Brawl is a more ambicious project than Mario & Luigi. But you can't ask a lot of $$$ for a copyright, there should be a limit.

 

[bbb]

Mario & Luigi =/= Super Smash Bros. Brawl. It's a cmpletely different set of circumstances and connotations.

Oh wait a second

Mario Hoops =/= Super Smash Bro.s Brawl

I just felt I should bring that back up

 

[GenG]

Double posting. Sorry.

 

[Tiamat]

Oh wait a second

Mario Hoops =/= Super Smash Bro.s Brawl

I just felt I should bring that back up

Although Mario Hoops =/= Super Smash Bros. Brawl, Mario Hoops =/= Mario & Luigi as well. Mario Hoops is a better representation of Square's perspection and what Square wants because it's made by them. Mario & Luigi is not. Furthermore, Mario Hoops is a sports game while Mario & Luigi is an RPG, which leads to another different set of circumstances and connotations (such as more openness to guest characters. In this case, two points combine and Square making a sports game makes it more open to third-party guest characters). And thus Hoop's relevance to that particular point I was trying to make is different from any relevance M&L could have tried to make.

 

[Haruno Kotetsu]

Oh, Thats messed up o.o
Geno only appeared for a mameo or whatever too so Squaresoft probably isnt very fond of Nintendo. xD

 

[#HBC | marshy]

No, after that huge list of games they made for them posted by GenG. They didn't want a sequel to SMRPG, they wanted something different and new which is why they didn't buy the rights. They also didn't want to spend money on something they could do without.

 

[sonic&shadow]

MCFOX YOU JERK! There's a topic for this! READ THE RULES MORON! >: I

chu dat

 

[bbb]

Although Mario Hoops =/= Super Smash Bros. Brawl, Mario Hoops =/= Mario & Luigi as well. Mario Hoops is a better representation of Square's perspection and what Square wants because it's made by them. Mario & Luigi is not. Furthermore, Mario Hoops is a sports game while Mario & Luigi is an RPG, which leads to another different set of circumstances and connotations (such as more openness to guest characters. In this case, two points combine and Square making a sports game makes it more open to third-party guest characters). And thus Hoop's relevance to that particular point I was trying to make is different from any relevance M&L could have tried to make.

This is never going to work, we'll never agree.

So I'll do what I did in the Waluigi forum and say, 'oh well, I'll wait and see.'

 

[kaid]

As I said before, I find Geno unlikely purely by the nature of Sakura's 3rd party limit.

As Sakura has said, We willonly be having Snake and 1-2 other third party characters.

The odds of Sonic NOT being one of those characters is astronomical. This leaves us wil 0-1 slots available. This means Sonic COULD be the ONLY 3rd party character besides Snake.

If there IS a second character, I consider the running between Megaman, Simon Belmount, Geno and Sora.

Sora is on that list, despite his lack of any nintendo connection worth mentioning, for two reasons. First off, he's the main character of a Square game that actually has sequals starring the same character, and therefore promotes KH3. Second, the massive PS2 fanbase for Sora will be waiting for the price to come down on a PS3, and this represents a solid buisness opportunity for Nintendo to convince them to buy a Wii while they wait.

Megaman has been around since the NES, and has remained in the public eye by making sequal after sequal after sequal. If you have a game system, you've at least heard of Megaman. He even was a reccuring character in some Nintendo show, "Captian N the Gamemaster," along with Pit and Simon Belmount. He is a gaming icon who is friends with every console.

Simon Belmount has also been around since the NES, and also starred the the "Captian N" show. While he reps a franchise at least as loved (if not more so) than Megaman, he himself hasn't had a game in years, having been upstaged by the likes of Alucard and now Soma Cruz. Many do remember him fondly, but he himself has faded to near-obscurity.

And then we have Geno. With a small but rabid fanbase, he is comparable to Ness. If he was a first party character, his inclusion would be just as obvios as Sonic. However, as a 3rd party character, there become other conditions that start to apply. He is not well known outside his fanbase, he had a major supporting role in exactly 1 game, and poor Nintendo/Square relations over THAT GAME caused the rift between the two companies that is still in the process of healing to this day.

Now can anyone refute this wothout using the words suck, deserve, awesome, or any similar term? Let's keep this strictly by the facts

 

[Resting_Fox]

Actually Tiamat, I find your options rather limited. So much so that I regret not being here at the time of their occurence.

If I rmember correctly, you said all the potential outcomes of Square negotiating with Nintendo would be either.

--Nintendo pays a load of money of Geno, whom Square would dangle like a tormenting bully from their reach.

--Or Square suggests they get a better representative of their own games.

The third option is that Nintendo gets nothing but dissatisfaction and frustration with Square.

But you're leaving out a very important potentiality. Say Sakurai goes to Square and asks to use Geno. Square thinks it's a good idea for Nintendo to please their fans, but they recognize that he's not going to draw a lot of Profit for Square.

So they give Nintendo a few options, Buy Geno at a high price, Allow another Square character for mere royalties as it would draw profit for both Square and Nintendo, OR do both, Nintendo agrees to let Square include [and thus advertise] one of their more important cahracters [such as Crono or a Black Mage] in exchange for using Geno. Since Geno's more affiliated with Mario I doubt he'd be hogging up one of the coveted 1-2 3rd party slots. The executives shake hands on a deal well made and nobody ends up dissatisfied [except maybe the Sonic fans].

And your point about Square showing what type of characters they think fit into Mario's place is irrelevant, because this is not just a Mario Game. This is Smash Brothers, and when you've already got the Likes of Solid Snake, it really sets the bar for other third party characters. Square choosing a moogle to represent them would look pathetic in the face of Snake. The only people they'd be insulting would be themselves. Cloud can't make it, and FF6 has too many characters to choose from, so the only other logical option is someone like Crono.

And besides, Super Mario RPG's old enough now that a remake wouldn't be all that far-fetched, so Square could actually get double the ad-space.

----------
And Kaid, you're almost right, but you're repeating yourself, unecessarily.

Considering Geno's prominence on the Japanese Tuukouken it's likely Sakurai considers Geno to be apart from the other third party characters because he's actually a member of a the Mario franchise.

 

[Tiamat]

poor Nintendo/Square relations over THAT GAME caused the rift between the two companies that is still in the process of healing to this day.

I wish it was easier to find information on this. I needed to do a LOT of googling to finally get stuff on it, although at least I can say that it's probably at least somewhat true. Here's what I was able to find if anyone needs some evidence (doesn't prove it 100%, but Super Mario RPG was the last game Squaresoft made for Nintendo before the big screw...)

http://xenon.stanford.edu/~geksiong/papers/sts145/Squaresoft and FF7.htm

http://www.planetgamecube.com/specialArt.cfm?artid=1831

http://www.squareuniverse.net/som2.html

http://everything2.com/index.pl?node=Seiken Densetsu 3


Just run a search for "Mario RPG" in each of those pages

 

[McFox]

Oh joy, Tiamat's back with five more pages pointless debate since the last time I was here.

Since you elected to skip over my points before, I'll repost them. Keep in mind that I haven't read anything you've written since the one preceding what I'm responding to below. If I felt like reading a novel, I'd pick up The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy.

So here you go:

Actually, I didn't say that. I say that Sheik was the main character addition, and Zelda was added later. They showed off Sheik during the trailer (and I have the trailer if you really care that much), while Zelda wasn't even mentioned.

As for your other "points," allow me to try and shorten and simplify this increasingly long and complicated conversation:

You say Geno can't be in the game because:

1) He wasn't the star of his game.
2) He doesn't represent future investments from Nintendo (although you don't actually know that).
3) He doesn't ambiguously represent some kind of era.
4) The timeline of his story was changed.

Then I said:

1) He was one of the main characters in his game.
2) Possibly true.
3) He represents the SNES and one of the greatest games of all time.
4) Mario timelines are arbitrary.
5) He is one of the most popular characters in the history of Nintendo, representing a large portion of requests.

Then you responded with:

1) He wasn't the star of his game. (He was a major player)
2) He doesn't represent future investments from Nintendo (although you don't actually know that). (He might.)
3) He doesn't ambiguously represent some kind of era. (He represents one of the greatest games ever made, according to a large majority of people who have played it.)
4) The timeline of his story was changed. (Who cares?)
5) Sigurd wasn't in the game. (What?)
6) People wouldn't buy the game just to play as Geno. (An assumption you couldn't even begin to prove.)

I really don't see how your points disqualify Geno at all. So here we go with some new points!:

1) Sakurai does not pick characters simply to advertise. Sigurd was picked for Melee earlier, but due to time constraints, he was cut. Then, near the end of development and with the addition of the clones, Nintendo recommended Roy to advertise their new game. He is the only character like this, and he was a clone.

2) Sakurai has a history of picking random, obscure characters for the roster. Characters that have a cult-like following with many people, but aren't necessarily recognized by all gamers. Characters like these include Captain Falcon, the Ice Climbers, Marth, Mewtwo, and Ness.

3) Sakurai has been known to pick characters whose resume only includes a single game. He's even picked characters that were never playable at all. Case-in-point: Sheik AND Ocarina of Time's Ganondorf. Others characters who were only in one game include the Ice Climbers, Roy, Ness, and Dr. Mario.

4) Sakurai is also known for listening to fans' requests. That's the entire reason the poll was created. I doubt he would have made the poll for Japanese gamers if he was just going to just whimsically toss all of the suggestions aside. Because the poll was created at all, we can assume that he at least plans to considers fans' requests. Next, we can see that, of all of the characters on the list, Geno was almost definitely one of the most recommended, considering his huge popularity and probable even higher popularity in Japan, where RPGs rule.

 

[Tiamat]

Given that I've given up on that debate a couple hours ago, I think I'll elect to skip over your points a second time as well!