The Official Fox Stage Guide - Discussion 5: Castle Siege

[soul ark]

i hate FD

1. too much work walking and running around trying to combo

2. up smash is not as efficient

3 to much space to cover (fox can only dominate in small areas0

4. no platforms

5. if your under the stage even a little bit against a half decent player you can kiss that stock goodbye (if the stage doesn't f' you over then your opponent will)

6. and screw all that air crap fox can barely gimp as it is

i ban this stage

 

[Zhamy]

I ban Lylat Cruise.

 

[Exceladon City]

i hate FD

1. too much work walking and running around trying to combo

2. up smash is not as efficient

3 to much space to cover (fox can only dominate in small areas0

4. no platforms

5. if your under the stage even a little bit against a half decent player you can kiss that stock goodbye (if the stage doesn't f' you over then your opponent will)

6. and screw all that air crap fox can barely gimp as it is

i ban this stage

1. Fox doesn't have many safe approaches and since FD is large your opponent is gonna intercept pretty much any approach that comes their way. So actively trying to combo will get Fox *****...hard.

2. Well that's why you learn K.O percents. Without DI a fresh Usmash with Fox can K.O Mario between 95 and 100% on FD. Since Mario is pretty much the most average in everything that's a good model to base K.O percents from.

3. Being in a small area is not always a good thing for Fox. Makes his lasers pretty much pointless if he doesn't have enough space to safely use them and SHDL isn't THAT useful so don't even throw that out.

4. Aside from like 2 of his aerials being able to hit from under the platform, platforms really aren't that important to Fox's game. They IMO are more of a hindrance than a help. Getting caught on a platform isn't exactly good when more than half of his match-ups (Pika, Meta Knight, DK, Diddy, Snake, etc.)make better use of them than he does.

5. One can expect to get gimped by FD at least once throughout a match regardless of how skilled a player is. I'm sure even the most skilled MK's botch a recovery on FD.

6. The only real glaring problem I see with FD is the lips on both ends ****** recovery and campy opponents like Falco and Olimar or the super **** himself, MK. But that is a given.

I ban Lylat Cruise.

I second that.

 

[MegaMan087]

OK, I will be writing up the summary for FD later tonight. Let's move on to Smashville now!

This is my favorite Fox stage, and favorite stage overall. There is plenty of room to move around, the edges don't gimp, and Fox has a relatively easy killing off the top and sides.

Once again, it's the platform that will probably be the focus here. I personally love it. It moves, so keeping that in mind can help when planning strategies. The added height can pull out some surprise kills at lower percents.

Ugh, I'm crazy busy right now. I'll write more when I have time later.

 

[GwJ]

I love this stage too. It gives plenty of flat space to camp and move around. The playform helps too. It helps with a lot of your aerial setups. Landing on the platform is just asking for Fox's Fair or Dair at low-mid percents and a Uair at higher percents.

Plus there's no armpit. However I think it hurts Fox more than others because Fox isn't affected much because of the curved Firefox. A downside is the smaller blastzones. An attack that would kill on Smashville might not kill on FD.

it's not my favorite, but it's my second choice if FD is banned.

 

[Sukai]

Samshville is Fox's best neutral stage.
He can go for some of the best shine gimps here, and his maneuverability is much better than on Final Destination, that moving platfrom can make for a huge strategic advantage.
At the same time, Fox is still just as vulnerable here to gay stuff as he is on Final Destination, so you'd be wise to watch out for that stuff here too.
He operates well under the stage, much better than most of the other characters (who only has two jumps).
He generally has more options here, more than he does in Final Destination, just because of that one moving platform.

Out of the three that's been shown here, this is Fox's best, hands down.

 

[NeverKnowsBest]

Samshville is Fox's best neutral stage.
He can go for some of the best shine gimps here, and his maneuverability is much better than on Final Destination, that moving platfrom can make for a huge strategic advantage.
At the same time, Fox is still just as vulnerable here to gay stuff as he is on Final Destination, so you'd be wise to watch out for that stuff here too.
He operates well under the stage, much better than most of the other characters (who only has two jumps).
He generally has more options here, more than he does in Final Destination, just because of that one moving platform.

Out of the three that's been shown here, this is Fox's best, hands down.

I honestly agree. What is one of the best thinks I like about this stage is it really incorporates Fox's back air. If you knock an opponent on the moving platform as it heads towards the end you can back air through the platform for an easy kill. Situational of course but very effective when the time comes.

 

[soul ark]

Now this stage i like you have all the benifits of final destination and battlefield (kinda)

1. as said earlier shine gimps can be used in this stage

2. the blast zone on the sides and bottom are close so you're given more options. e.g. side smash, d-air gimping, d-smash works wonders here

5. no getting lost under the platform and even if you are gimped further towards the middle of the stage you can actually still save yourself (if you dont believe me see rookie's first combo vid.)

4. the platform is a semi moderate safe haven against spamers (all except snake) and if your opponent falls onto the platform you can use that b-air to keep em moving

oh and one last thing

2. Well that's why you learn K.O percents. Without DI a fresh Usmash with Fox can K.O Mario between 95 and 100% on FD. Since Mario is pretty much the most average in everything that's a good model to base K.O percents from.

5. One can expect to get gimped by FD at least once throughout a match regardless of how skilled a player is. I'm sure even the most skilled MK's botch a recovery on FD.

6. The only real glaring problem I see with FD is the lips on both ends ****** recovery and campy opponents like Falco and Olimar or the super **** himself, MK. But that is a given.

You shouldn't go to a stage where you expect to lose one stock because of the stage itself valuable time can be wasted trying to get back the power of your up-smash. (I hate FD because DI can happen with the up-smash decayed) and because the area (not the stage) is so huge, side smashes and down smashes wont kill them. The process takes longer, killing fox's only highlight as a character who can ko efficiently.

 

[MegaMan087]

The overview of FD is up. If anyone thinks I left something out or something is glaringly wrong, feel free to let me know.

 

[KheldarVII]

The only difference in gimping for SV from BF or FD is just the platform extends the stage so either it helps the recoverer or gives you the extra arm for gimps. Either way, I don't think it helps Fox personally against anybody. To me, this stage is a "gimped" Battlefield.

Speaking as a player, the platform (the only thing that separates this from FD or BF) screws me up way too often. It follows Fox's aerial movement almost perfectly so that he can get hooked on it and take something like Snake's U-tilt. On the other hand it means Fox can chase under it. With that said what character does better on top of Fox on a platform then below it? Not many. Maybe someone with explosives or a killer D-air. Fox's U-air beats practically every D-air though.

In closing, my second least favorite out of the neutrals. Advantage to Fox... slightly better killing potential than FD and can recover better. The open air can beat out non-aerial characters as Fox has excellent burst speed. You're probably stuck on this stage if you're playing a Meta Knight and you can't pick FD.

You gain a better advantage with open air on FD and you gain better platform control on BF. I guess this is fine middle ground if that's your Fox playstyle. It's decent but I just like the other two better.

If anyone really cares on my list of preferred neutrals it's
Battlefield
Lylat Cruise
Final Destination
Smashville
Yoshi's Island

 

[Zhamy]

Lylat Cruise

I hate you so much.

Smashville is really preference. FD + platform, more or less. Kheldar covered most of the good reasons.

 

[KheldarVII]

In case I didn't point it out before, I saw a few posts saying Fox can gimp on SV. The only neutral where Fox has a slightly less chance at gimping is Yoshi's Island. So don't be finding that as a plus for Fox on any neutrals specifically. He has the same gimping potential on all 5.

 

[A6M Zero]

Smashville is my favourite stage in the game, but one of the poorer neutral for Fox as far as they go.

Smashville has a somewhat higher ceiling than most of the neutrals, making kills a bit harder.

Large stage size makes it harder to kill on the sides, platform aids in opponents recovery to avoid getting KO'd off side.

Platform is too large width wise to be of use for Fox, who takes advantage of opponents immobility on the BF platforms to land easy aerials. The movement of the platform and the amount of room your opponent can move nullifies this advantage. At the same time, it hinders Fox's aerial mobility and puts him closer to the ceiling for low percent kills against him, and all of his poor and equal matchups are better with the platform (save IC)

The only time I choose Smashville is against IC's with no better options, extra space does nothing for the IC's and helps you avoid CG's.

 

[MegaMan087]

Since discussion seems to be at a standstill for Smashville, I'll be writing up the summary later tonight so if anyone has some last minute things to say, feel free. Also, on the first post, I added the killing % for a U-Smash done on Mario for the stages done so far.

 

[Toronto Joe]

i ****ing hate yoshis island

 

[MegaMan087]

i ****ing hate yoshis island

QFT

The summary of Smashville is up, and as always if there is any flaw that you feel needs to be rectified or information you feel needs to be included, let me know. Now, onto Yoshi's Island.

This level blows. With the tilting platform messing up Fox's lasers and air game, it makes for a flat out not fun fight. The curved main stage only serves to mess up spacing and attacking in general. The only good things about this stage are the random side platforms that can come up to save you, and using the wall to wall jump off of, or use a Bair to maybe get off a gimp kill. However these are in no way redeeming factors.

 

[SnowballBob33]

The shy guys can sometimes help refresh moves by shooting with lasers. Also, the flat sides allow you to get an extra jump which comes in handy if u mess up a bair and need another jump. Quicker kills on the platform. The bad part is lasers can get stopped by a moving platform.

Guys, I really think in this thread we need to add on who to take where. It's nice to know where fox is strong but its just as important to know who to cp to these places. Info like "G&w is **** on Bf but sux on sv" (idk if thats really true) would be an important factor in choosing ur map. Yea, a map may be 5/5 but that doesn't mean its your best choice.

 

[Zhamy]

Guys, I really think in this thread we need to add on who to take where. It's nice to know where fox is strong but its just as important to know who to cp to these places. Info like "G&w is **** on Bf but sux on sv" (idk if thats really true) would be an important factor in choosing ur map. Yea, a map may be 5/5 but that doesn't mean its your best choice.

I disagree. Character CPs are different, and should be covered by character, not by stage. Not only is that an easier and more logical progression, but it reduces clutter. The idea of a stage guide is to figure out if a stage is good, why a stage is good, and what features of the stage you can use to improve your game.

 

[Uzima (Uzi)]

while I agree yoshi's island can truly mess up fox's laser game as well as the platform.

it has a few good points ti it, like the rotating platform is still a platform and can be used for lower % up-smash kills, as well as the little platforms of the edge can be used to help you go out and chase the opponent to the wall little easier if there not the one's capitalizing on them being there, plus the walls help with recoveries (better than getting the odd firefox stuck under the stage )

It's all how you capitalize on the good parts of the stage sand adapt to the bad things.

 

[MegaMan087]

Guys, I really think in this thread we need to add on who to take where. It's nice to know where fox is strong but its just as important to know who to cp to these places. Info like "G&w is **** on Bf but sux on sv" (idk if thats really true) would be an important factor in choosing ur map. Yea, a map may be 5/5 but that doesn't mean its your best choice.

Here is a thread I found that I think answers/covers what you're referring to. Anything beyond that I feel should be covered in the Fox Matchup Thread (mainly if character X ***** Fox on stage Y). I'll put the link to that thread on the main post.

 

[Sukai]

Yoshi's Island

This...depends on the player, if the player know his stuff--and we are naturally assuming he does--then Fox will rock on this stage, a bit better than he would on Final Destination or Battlefield, the main advantage is the curvy ground, if positioned right, he can tag crouch camping people, and nullify their effort to duck under laser--forcing them to approach, just what we want.
On top of that, a back air stage spike is easier to do here, and a bit harder to punish with the help of wall jump and our beloved Foxcopter. The platform is even friendlier in this stage, because it rotates alot, giving Fox the maneuverability he needs, makes for good strategic moves here.
I can say this is the "Battlefield" for Fox, he can do so many things better that he can do on Battlefield, and it easier to connect an up smash through the platform.
I say this is Fox's second best neutral stage.
It just curves to his groove.
Pun intended.

 

[MegaMan087]

Ok, so after a relatively lack-luster week it's time to move on. Hopefully we can get some more discussion going on this week. Later I'll upload the summary of Yoshi's Island and my thoughts on Castle Siege.

 

[Uzima (Uzi)]

castle siege is prett good,

cept for the walk off part, watch out for them chain throws

 

[KheldarVII]

When did we make an agreement on Yoshi's Island?

Castle Siege: Works nicely for Fox as he can kill in lots of ways and even standing shine gimp if you time it with the stage section transition. Fox just has to avoid something like MK's D-smash. However, most characters that Fox can handle on neutrals might hurt him more here like Snake or Dedede, although Snake is a monster anywhere.
Fox can also refresh his lasers easier with the statues and take advantage of early D-air -> D-smash kills.

Better counterpicks out there but this one is good in some cases, maybe against smaller characters.

 

[Zhamy]

although Snake is a monster anywhere.

I don't know. It's kind of mean to call a reptile a monster just because it looks scary.

 

[MegaMan087]

When did we make an agreement on Yoshi's Island?

We didn't. The amount of feedback that was received wasn't very much. If anyone still wants to discuss it, feel free!

 

[NeverKnowsBest]

^I think we should hold off on Castle Seige till we have substantial information on Yoshi's Island seeing as it is a neutral.

I am trying my hardest to like Yoshi's because Fox can shine infinite King Dedede. I still however am not too big of a fan of the level due to the sides.

 

[MegaMan087]

^I think we should hold off on Castle Seige till we have substantial information on Yoshi's Island seeing as it is a neutral.

Sounds good. I'll keep it going until we get a good discussion going. It was kinda stupid of me to jump the gun and move on.

*EDIT*

Ok, it's been almost 10 days and nothing else has been said about Yoshi's Island. I'm going to try to move onto Castle Siege, but if that doesn't work for whatever reason, then I will attempt to make a pretty comprehensive guide on the stages that I have listed so far.