The Official Dark Samus for Brawl thread!

[HiddenTiger]

^On the contrary. Dark Samus is the least plausible character Metroid has to offer. Even when Metroid is pretty low in its amount of actual characters, most of the other characters in the Metroid universe (read: Ridley or the Hunters) would prove far better for Smash. The fact of the matter, DS is undeniably a mere pallette swap away from being Samus. Keeping that in mind, why would the developers in Brawl spend all the valuable time it would take to create all of the animation and coding for a new and unique moveset for DS (which has already been proven possible enough times that you don't need to remind me of it, thank you very much) when they could so very easily take the existing animations from another character with a perfectly identical model, and just tweak the stats to differentiate the two? Now, please don't preach to me about how DS could have a completely separate moveset, because I know it's technically possible. That doesn't mean it's probable. The fact of the matter is that throughout the history of Smash, characters with similar physical builds have almost always been clones or semi-clones (the two exceptions two this being Kirby-Jiggs, and to a lesser extent Zelda-Peach). Like so:

Dr. Mario and Luigi. They are very similar to Mario. They are clones of Mario.

Falco. He has the same physical build as Fox. He is a clone of Fox.

Ganondorf. His wireframe is the same shape as Captain Falcon's. He is a clone of Captain Falcon.

Pichu. It is very physically similar to Pikachu. It is a clone of Pikachu.

Young Link. He is the same as Link, just shorter, with child-like proportions. He is a clone of Link.

Roy. He has built very close to the way Marth is. He is a clone of Marth.

Dark Samus. Aesthetically, it is Samus. Anybody wanna take a guess at what comes next?

For all of your movesets, speculations, arguments, and single-minded belief in the myth that Sakurai-san ever uttered the phrase "No Clones in Brawl", you cannot deny the facts. Physically similar characters have almost always been clones. As for a physically identical character, I think there can be no question. That being said, I would prefer to avoid clones in Brawl as much as possible.

If I unintentionally offended anybody with this post, I apologize. I just wanted to get my point across, and sometimes when I get going I can't stop myself. =P

 

[Numa Dude]

Just because Dark Samus and regular Samus look alike doesn't mean they will be clones. In fact the only reason clones where in in the first place was because of the deadline for melee. The Metroid series is pretty much guaranteed to get at least Ridely and with Samus alone for two games straight I think the series deserve at least three character (I count Samus and Zamus as one character).

 

[Chief Mendez]

I agree with Numa Dude in that you shouldn't count Zamus as an extra character if indeed she's just an ingame transformation triggered by some other factor.

HiddenTiger: "physically similar characters have almost always been clones," only applies to Melee. One game's quirks doesn't set rules. You can't apply terms like "usual" and "history" to a single instance. That's basic stuff.

Furthermore, I don't think Dark Samus would work as a clone. Sure, anatomically speaking, it looks like Samus, but it ends there. Dark Samus glides along the ground, flies in the air, drips toxic radiation, and generally behaves...well, not like Samus. A clone just wouldn't do justice.

 

[Dr_Twist]

wplain and simple dak samus needs to be in brawl and for all you who are skeptical, he will not be a copy because he has much more potentiel and so much more stuff that can be his moves.

anyway i made this for this thread!

 

[Wiseguy]

I agree with Numa Dude in that you shouldn't count Zamus as an extra character if indeed she's just an ingame transformation triggered by some other factor.

HiddenTiger: "physically similar characters have almost always been clones," only applies to Melee. One game's quirks doesn't set rules. You can't apply terms like "usual" and "history" to a single instance. That's basic stuff.

Furthermore, I don't think Dark Samus would work as a clone. Sure, anatomically speaking, it looks like Samus, but it ends there. Dark Samus glides along the ground, flies in the air, drips toxic radiation, and generally behaves...well, not like Samus. A clone just wouldn't do justice.

If anything, we can probably expect more clones in Brawl, since the Smash Bros. team are expected to create even more charcaters in the same development time. Clones are less time consuming to create, which means we could have a lot more characters to play as if Sakurai decides to include some clones in the game. Would you be willing to settle for only 35 original charcaters when we could have had 30 originals and 15 clones (assuming that a clone takes one third the development time)?

Edit: That sig is really awesome. I approve.

 

[Chief Mendez]

...Yeah, I'd be fine with that.

Also, keep in mind that for Brawl, they're reusing Melee's engine, so they have more time to dedicate to characters, stages (and what cool stages they are!), and items rather than to making a new system.

 

[Wiseguy]

...Yeah, I'd be fine with that.

Also, keep in mind that for Brawl, they're reusing Melee's engine, so they have more time to dedicate to characters, stages (and what cool stages they are!), and items rather than to making a new system.

Are you sure? Let's say that the 19 main charcaters from melee returned. Throw in the 5 new charcaters already announced for Brawl and add Sonic, Geno,Diddy, Krystal, King Dedede, Ridley, one new Pokemon and Ike.
That leaves only three spots for new characters. Do you really think Dark Samus has a chance with those kinds of odds?

 

[Chief Mendez]

Well hey, first of all: Geno? Krystal? Yeah, I'd rather that than clones. I always hate playing as a clone (or conversely, the guy they're cloned from), because this little voice in the back of my head keeps telling me, "hey...y'know, if you'd picked Falco, you'd be dealing actual damage with those blaster shots..."

Well, you know what I mean. It's personal preference, yeah, but you've gotta' remember it isn't all about characters. If they take the time they would've spent on clones and applied it to online modes, event matches, and items, we'd all be better off.

And yeah, Dark Samus's chances'd be less in that case, but I'm more concerned about the entire package than I am about all my wishlist guys making the cut.

 

[Wiseguy]

Well hey, first of all: Geno? Krystal? Yeah, I'd rather that than clones. I always hate playing as a clone (or conversely, the guy they're cloned from), because this little voice in the back of my head keeps telling me, "hey...y'know, if you'd picked Falco, you'd be dealing actual damage with those blaster shots..."

Well, you know what I mean. It's personal preference, yeah, but you've gotta' remember it isn't all about characters. If they take the time they would've spent on clones and applied it to online modes, event matches, and items, we'd all be better off.

And yeah, Dark Samus's chances'd be less in that case, but I'm more concerned about the entire package than I am about all my wishlist guys making the cut.

I think all the Luigi, Ganondorf, Dr. Mario, Young Link and Falco fans would beg to differ. When designed properly, a clone can be unique and just as fun as an original character. It also allows them to put in more minor characters that would otherwise never appear in Smash Bros.

I, for one, would rather have Dark Samus as a floatier, slower, more powerful Samus clone than no Dark Samus at all. Like it or not, those are the only two choices.

 

[HiddenTiger]

HiddenTiger: "physically similar characters have almost always been clones," only applies to Melee. One game's quirks doesn't set rules. You can't apply terms like "usual" and "history" to a single instance. That's basic stuff.

It happened in SSB64, too. There were less characters, so there were less isolated incidents, but it was there. Luigi was a complete clone of Mario, and even Jiggs and Kirby had similar A moves. There is a pattern there.

Furthermore, I don't think Dark Samus would work as a clone. Sure, anatomically speaking, it looks like Samus, but it ends there. Dark Samus glides along the ground, flies in the air, drips toxic radiation, and generally behaves...well, not like Samus. A clone just wouldn't do justice.

Yes, yes, I know that. I know that DS floats, and Samus doesn't. Big hoopla. Source material from original games isn't extremely important when it comes to Smash. Look at Dr. Mario. Look at the Ice Climbers. Look at Ganon. Look at Capt. Falcon, Ness, Zelda, Sheik, Peach, or Mr. Game & Watch. Even Mario had plenty of made up moves in Melee. It doesn't really matter what they can do in their own games, it's what Sakurai and his team at The Studio want them to do. And speaking from the perspective of a game developer, I would rather use a set of existing animations and programming again than make two completely different sets of animations and codes for the same model.

 

[Zarasai]

Are you sure? Let's say that the 19 main charcaters from melee returned. Throw in the 5 new charcaters already announced for Brawl and add Sonic, Geno,Diddy, Krystal, King Dedede, Ridley, one new Pokemon and Ike.
That leaves only three spots for new characters. Do you really think Dark Samus has a chance with those kinds of odds?

and now just remove geno, krystal, and the pokemon(remove the original pokemon too i say!), and you have atleast 6 new spots assuming you know, which you dont, the exact number of characters included. Dark samus looks alot better now dont she.

 

[Wiseguy]

and now just remove geno, krystal, and the pokemon(remove the original pokemon too i say!), and you have atleast 6 new spots assuming you know, which you dont, the exact number of characters included. Dark samus looks alot better now dont she.

Good point. Dark Samus is clearly a more well known character than Pikachu.

 

[El HP]

WTH how is Dark Samus going to be a clone? that is like saying Wario is a clone of Mario in Brawl hell how DS is going to use the screwattack?

 

[Wiseguy]

WTH how is Dark Samus going to be a clone? that is like saying Wario is a clone of Mario in Brawl hell how DS is going to use the screwattack?

Being a clone does not mean all their moves have to be identical. Luigi, for example, is based on Mario yet a few of his moves are completely original (Ex: green rocket). The same could be true for Dark Samus.

 

[Stryks]

Ok so lets say we should put dark samus as a color swap/alt. costume for samus, would this make sense? now its like we give metaknights mask to kirby, put his skin color dark blue and tada we got metaknight... jiggs being an alt. costume for kirby, or (like someone said a few days ago) paper mario being an alt. costume for GaW, this is all bad ideas cause all of them fight diferently...

Same with Dark samus and samus, i know theres a possibility, but do I have to say it again? clones were added in melee cause of the deadline, now they have had over a year now and all 07 to finich, they have enough time...

Dark samus is not known for its punches or kicks (neither is samus i nher games, but can u rellay c dark samus doing a sex kick in mid air??), solution, make her moveset purely phazon based, instead of moving his arms or legs (maybe just for jumping or hanging on the ledge), hell send blasts of energy or backwards depending o where u tilt the control, the attacks will only hurt on close range, just like any A move, smash atatcks will had a tad more range, as well as the aerial moves...

Yes I know, why would they waste time on a character if it can be a simple color swap and will probably be a clone? cause not only is dark samus unique on its moveset, but puting ones main enemy (in the prime series anyway) as a alt. costume just wuldnt fit, when the nemy would have totally diferent stats from samus and would have such a diferent way of attacking that would make him one of the most unique characters in the game...

and yes ridley deserves the shot mroe, I knwo this, but dark samus is a good contender, and a hunter wouldnt hurt as well XD

 

[Wiseguy]

Ok so lets say we should put dark samus as a color swap/alt. costume for samus, would this make sense? now its like we give metaknights mask to kirby, put his skin color dark blue and tada we got metaknight... jiggs being an alt. costume for kirby, or (like someone said a few days ago) paper mario being an alt. costume for GaW, this is all bad ideas cause all of them fight diferently...

Same with Dark samus and samus, i know theres a possibility, but do I have to say it again? clones were added in melee cause of the deadline, now they have had over a year now and all 07 to finich, they have enough time...

Dark samus is not known for its punches or kicks (neither is samus i nher games, but can u rellay c dark samus doing a sex kick in mid air??), solution, make her moveset purely phazon based, instead of moving his arms or legs (maybe just for jumping or hanging on the ledge), hell send blasts of energy or backwards depending o where u tilt the control, the attacks will only hurt on close range, just like any A move, smash atatcks will had a tad more range, as well as the aerial moves...

Yes I know, why would they waste time on a character if it can be a simple color swap and will probably be a clone? cause not only is dark samus unique on its moveset, but puting ones main enemy (in the prime series anyway) as a alt. costume just wuldnt fit, when the nemy would have totally diferent stats from samus and would have such a diferent way of attacking that would make him one of the most unique characters in the game...

and yes ridley deserves the shot mroe, I knwo this, but dark samus is a good contender, and a hunter wouldnt hurt as well XD

"You can't always get waht you want. You can't always get what you want. You can't always get what you want. But if you try sometimes, you just might find, you get what you need."

Oh, and Stryks I'm still waiting for you to provide me that quote where Sakurai alegedy said that he won't include clones in Brawl. Until I see it myself, I will remain skeptical.

 

[Stryks]

I said he doesnt like clones, never did I said he wont add clones, and it was a few weeks after the 1st trailer, unless I have a time machine I doubt Ill find it...

 

[Bobby Emerald]

Dark Samus is clearly a more well known character than Pikachu.

Wrong. Pikachu was and is known worldwide more than DS, considering that Pokemon was made as a game for the gameboy. Plus anime raised Pikachu's popularity by a lot. But DS really should be in Brawl.

 

[Wiseguy]

and now just remove geno, krystal, and the pokemon(remove the original pokemon too i say!), and you have atleast 6 new spots assuming you know, which you dont, the exact number of characters included. Dark samus looks alot better now dont she.

Wrong. Pikachu was and is known worldwide more than DS, considering that Pokemon was made as a game for the gameboy. Plus anime raised Pikachu's popularity by a lot. But DS really should be in Brawl.

Sarcasm. That was sarcasm. Zarasai said that all the orginal Pokemon charcaters in Melee should be removed to make way for Dark Samus with an original moveset (as opposed to my suggestion that the character be included as a Samus clone). I'm certainly not a fan of that yellow rat, but there is no contesting his popularity.

 

[Zarasai]

never said pikachu wasnt popular. said he shouldnt be in brawl. shouldntve been in melee or original smash if it coems to that, but then neither should jigglypuff

 

[Chief Mendez]

never said pikachu wasnt popular. said he shouldnt be in brawl. shouldntve been in melee or original smash if it coems to that, but then neither should jigglypuff

No Jiggs!? Wha?

 

[Zarasai]

No Jiggs!? Wha?

I thought i was pretty clear, i didnt spell it wrong or something did i? i WAS typing in english no?

 

[petre]

its a good thing youre NOT deciding whos in brawl.

 

[shadenexus18]

I said he doesnt like clones, never did I said he wont add clones, and it was a few weeks after the 1st trailer, unless I have a time machine I doubt Ill find it...

Hey Stryks, should Dark Samus hover in mid-air about lets say......6 inches off of the ground, and substitute that in for walking? Quote me and give me an answer whenever you get the time bro.

 

[El HP]

Being a clone does not mean all their moves have to be identical. Luigi, for example, is based on Mario yet a few of his moves are completely original (Ex: green rocket). The same could be true for Dark Samus.

I know but the thing is DS is vastly different compared to Samus DS can't even lay bombs the only move that could similar is the charge shot.

 

[Wiseguy]

I know but the thing is DS is vastly different compared to Samus DS can't even lay bombs the only move that could similar is the charge shot.

True, but you are forgetting one thing: Ganondorf. Anyone who played OoT knows that he bears no similarities at all to Captain Falcon. Yet Sakurai decided that including this awesome charcater was so important that they made him a slower and more powerful clone of Captain Falcon in Melee. The same could happen for Dark Samus.

 

[shadenexus18]

^^This better not happen to DS, or heads will role, namly Sakurai's cabeza.

 

[Wiseguy]

^^This better not happen to DS, or heads will role, namly Sakurai's cabeza.

Would you rather he not get in at all?

 

[shadenexus18]

Would you rather he not get in at all?

I'll only tolerate certain characters to be clones like Wolf. I will never forgive Sakurai if he makes DS virtually similar to Mrs. Aran.

 

[Wiseguy]

I'll only tolerate certain characters to be clones like Wolf. I will never forgive Sakurai if he makes DS virtually similar to Mrs. Aran.

Some clones control completely different from the charcaters they are based on. Luigi and Ganondorf are good examples of this. I, for one, would rather have Dark Samus appear as a clone than not at all.

And who is the lucky Mr. Aran?

 

[Stryks]

True, but you are forgetting one thing: Ganondorf. Anyone who played OoT knows that he bears no similarities at all to Captain Falcon. Yet Sakurai decided that including this awesome charcater was so important that they made him a slower and more powerful clone of Captain Falcon in Melee. The same could happen for Dark Samus.

How many times do I have to say this:
CLONES WERE ADDED IN MELEE CAUSE OF LACK OF TIME, THIS IS NOT THE CASE IN BRAWL HAVING OVER 2 YEARS TO FINISH THE GAME!

 

[Wiseguy]

How many times do I have to say this:
CLONES WERE ADDED IN MELEE CAUSE OF LACK OF TIME, THIS IS NOT THE CASE IN BRAWL HAVING OVER 2 YEARS TO FINISH THE GAME!

So what? Aren't they still bound by the laws of time and space? Don't they still have to prioritize which charcaters they do and do not have time to program into the game? Isn't it true that since clones require less time to create they would allow Sakurai to incorporate far more charcaters in the game than if every charcater had their own moveset?

 

[Stryks]

Every character should have the same amount of time programming, sakurai aint gonna give a load of programming time to stafy while he'll just wait to the last minute and make dark samus a clone...

Yes making clones = more characters, still sakurai is bound to know by now that many of us arent happy about the clones, and sakurai wants to plase (sp?) the fans, u relly think he'll add them? not to mantion that (how many times do I have to say this) clones were added in melee, sakurai stated in some after-melee-was-released interview thing if I recall, he couldnt work on the characters like he would have liked to, what does this mean, maybe he wanted to better balance the character or to make the clones unclones yet he couldnt, now having a over a year now and all 07, he has plenty of time, makin the characters unique, and not make some clones so more characters can be added...

 

[Wiseguy]

Every character should have the same amount of time programming, sakurai aint gonna give a load of programming time to stafy while he'll just wait to the last minute and make dark samus a clone...

Yes making clones = more characters, still sakurai is bound to know by now that many of us arent happy about the clones, and sakurai wants to plase (sp?) the fans, u relly think he'll add them? not to mantion that (how many times do I have to say this) clones were added in melee, sakurai stated in some after-melee-was-released interview thing if I recall, he couldnt work on the characters like he would have liked to, what does this mean, maybe he wanted to better balance the character or to make the clones unclones yet he couldnt, now having a over a year now and all 07, he has plenty of time, makin the characters unique, and not make some clones so more characters can be added...

I'm not sure that you are giving clones enough credit. As I've said before: Luigi, Ganondorf, Falco, Roy, Young Link and Dr. Mario are each have a loyal fan base. Personally, Dr. Mario was my favorite charcater in Melee (although I doubt he will return in Brawl.)

Its unrealistic to think that Sakurai's team will be able to create 40 or 45 characters, each with a completely original moveset, in only two years time and maintain the execeptional quality we have come to expect from the Smash Bros. series. The only way that relatively little known charcaters like Dark Samus have a shot at appearing in Brawl is as clones. Otherwise, the few spots available, after the essential Melee charcaters return, will be dominated by more deserving characters like Diddy Kong and Ridley.

 

[Tiamat]

We have no idea whether or not Brawl will be rushed no matter how much time Sakurai has to work on the game, but frankly, I have a feeling that things are going to get under the wire and Sakurai will have to start throwing clones in if he wants to include characters like Dark Samus after the more fore-running ones like Ridley (if you think DS should get in BEFORE Ridley, you just... nevermind). After all, you'd think if they were actually really far along with 40+ characters that they would have revealed more new characters than friggin' FOX by now. Grr......

 

[El HP]

True, but you are forgetting one thing: Ganondorf. Anyone who played OoT knows that he bears no similarities at all to Captain Falcon. Yet Sakurai decided that including this awesome charcater was so important that they made him a slower and more powerful clone of Captain Falcon in Melee. The same could happen for Dark Samus.

You got a point but keep in mind that Falcon moves were created from srcatch while Samus special moves are based on her games.

 

[Wiseguy]

You got a point but keep in mind that Falcon moves were created from srcatch while Samus special moves are based on her games.

I'm not sure that makes any difference. Most characters in Melee have moves madeup specifically for Melee. I don't recall Samus ever using punches and kicks against her enemies.

 

[Chief Mendez]

Wiseguy, you've convinced me. I read what you've been posting, and after thinking it over, I besically agree. If they just alter Dark Samus' A moves a bit from Samus, give her floatier physics, and change her down+B and up+B moves to something more fitting, I could live with it.

I still want a wholly original set, but yeah; I could live with it.

 

[Zarasai]

I say ridley is in over DS too, and yeah i could live with DS as a clone, but i would way rather have an original or atleast half original moveset. I mean if people here can make up movesets for characters in like five minutes, im sure sakurai's team knows the characters possible movesets better than we do. not hard to be original here folks. 5 mins to think up the set means decent amount of time can be used to develop it. (not saying i want something done in 5 mins, but it IS possible)

 

[Stryks]

Yeah Dark samus can be totally unique, like u said, we cna make movesets in 5 min. I bet sakurai can make something way better and add it to dark samus, anyway yeah I agree too Ridley must be in over dark samus, yet adding both would be just plain awesome...