GA Peach
Smash Lord
I could also point out that you didn't even understand my post...
-
Welcome to Smashboards, the world's largest Super Smash Brothers community! Over 250,000 Smash Bros. fans from around the world have come to discuss these great games in over 19 million posts!
You are currently viewing our boards as a visitor. Click here to sign up right now and start on your path in the Smash community!
The Official Alabama Brawl Power Rankings UPDATED December 19, 2009
- Thread starter theONEjanitor
- Start date
game set.........
theONEjanitor
Smash Champion
power rankings are a list of how good you think the people are, thats it. geezus.
its not just tourney results, its not individual resuls, its how good the individual panelist thinks the person is. stop over complicating/over simplifying
a couple months ago GA put out a list that was based purely on tourney results and they nearly got flamed off the board because thats a ******** way to make a list unless you have a 75 man tournament every month that everyone in the state attends, and as munkus pointed out thre would be no need for a panel.
and its not strictly whether or not you can beat the person individually thats also a ******** way to make a list. its just how skilled you think the person is at the game period.
its not just tourney results, its not individual resuls, its how good the individual panelist thinks the person is. stop over complicating/over simplifying
a couple months ago GA put out a list that was based purely on tourney results and they nearly got flamed off the board because thats a ******** way to make a list unless you have a 75 man tournament every month that everyone in the state attends, and as munkus pointed out thre would be no need for a panel.
and its not strictly whether or not you can beat the person individually thats also a ******** way to make a list. its just how skilled you think the person is at the game period.
munkus beaver
Smash Journeyman
- Joined
- May 23, 2007
- Messages
- 460
- 3DS FC
- 0619-4510-9772
Thank you, Janitor. You have a multitude of factors that go into making a decision on placement. I have a complete idea for some people on there, I have a very incomplete list for others. I went into detail on the placement of each person on the list and my reasoning for putting them there.
The irony of your last response, Marty, is that you have completed misrepresented my points, hence the terse responses. I don't care how Reflex does against me, specifically, I care about how Reflex plays. One of the best ways to do this is through first hand experience. But I haven't even seen Reflex play at all. I've seen maybe 3 or 4 youtubes and I've heard a lot of people talk hype, that's about it. You disagree with my list, and you attack it with flimsy reasoning on how I made it. You don't even attempt to address anyone else but Reflex on the list. It would be extremely narrow-minded to only take tourney results into account. If Moogle gets knocked out of the winners bracket and the losers bracket by the guy who ends up winning the tourney and finished 5th, how does that factor in? Any system that you develop will have its flaws, Marty, I happen to believe that the one you propose to have many more than the one I use.
The irony of your last response, Marty, is that you have completed misrepresented my points, hence the terse responses. I don't care how Reflex does against me, specifically, I care about how Reflex plays. One of the best ways to do this is through first hand experience. But I haven't even seen Reflex play at all. I've seen maybe 3 or 4 youtubes and I've heard a lot of people talk hype, that's about it. You disagree with my list, and you attack it with flimsy reasoning on how I made it. You don't even attempt to address anyone else but Reflex on the list. It would be extremely narrow-minded to only take tourney results into account. If Moogle gets knocked out of the winners bracket and the losers bracket by the guy who ends up winning the tourney and finished 5th, how does that factor in? Any system that you develop will have its flaws, Marty, I happen to believe that the one you propose to have many more than the one I use.
GA Peach
Smash Lord
...*facepalm*
@Janitor and Munkus- yes, it is based on the discretion of the panelist, but to a certain degree. this would be like me saying in Melee, i had never seen, say, KDJ play before. but, i tried to preach to the ATL North that someone else with less credentials was better than him just based off of my own experience with him. it's fine if i think that, but to put him on a ranking like that above someone who is proven himself in more ways is ridiculous, and it is heavily biased. obviously, i am not saying that the skill level between Reflex and Will is as KDJ is to a random unknown person, but merely expressing the principal in which you seemed to have selected your ranking list. you can have a list of reasons, whatever they are, but again, it doesn't make them just or right simply because they are your reasons. the person you are arguing for 1st, Will, even agrees that Luis deserves the top spot. that speaks volumes. plus, he doesn't have to play YOU, Munkus, for you to see how he plays. he does well against/beats the BEST in the nation, so why would playing against you or myself even matter? do YOU win national tournies? no. do I? no. it's true that PR isn't 100% tourney rankings, but when the evidence is that strong, what you are doing is simply ranking on your own bias, instead of who is actually the better overall player. i only address reflex because he is one that i know about, and the only one on the list to have proven himself in the fashion i have aforementioned. by your logic, i should think that you or anyone else i have played is better than PC Chris simply because i have never played him. that would be ridiculous, considering his credentials. i would argue this point for anyone i knew, not just Luis. we are friends, he and i, but not great friends. i don't know him terribly well, but we have fun when we hang out. i'm not doing this out of bias towards Luis. Janitor, you seemed to have jumped into this mostly based on you just knowing Munkus better than you know me, so you are jumping to his side. i'm doing this because i think what Munkus is doing is wrong, no matter how stubborn he may want to be about it. it almost sounds as if Munkus just deliberately doesn't WANT him at the top for some other reason. maybe that's just me, but i don't see the logic at all in your decision, so it seems it would have to be heavy bias.
i don't see what the flaw is of having a system of ranking based on players proving themselves. if, in your example, Moogle lost to someone that won the tournament, and he ended up getting 5th overall, then he would need to step up his performance. no matter how good he may be or you think that he is, if he is not winning tournaments, and consistently got 5th, then why in the world would you put him any higher? that would be ridiculous because he has not proven to anyone that he is better than 5th. basing things on what playing styles YOU think are best, Munkus, should be irrelevant when someone has already proven themselves against the best competition around.
see, that's the point of trying to appoint a non-biased panel. if it were just based on who panelists liked, there would be no need to evaluate skill. you could just watch vids and base it off of which one entertains you more. also, even if players have similar placings in tournaments, you have to take into account the size of the tourney, who is there, AND who the person played at the tourney. if player A beats player B at a 10 man tourney, but player B goes to huge, 75+ man tournies, and places near the top while beating some of the best the nation has to offer, i think that he has proven his skill over player A.
in short, just do the rankings in a fair fashion. if i knew any other player on Alabama's PR list was getting unfair treatment, i would speak up, as well. i've done it at times in my own state's rankings. and, the panelists would give their reasons, some i thought were fair enough, and some i thought were not so much. but, the methods you have given seem greatly unfair. oh, and last point, i addressed you, Munkus, when you said that Will beat Reflex at that one tournament. we had JUST talked about how playing against one individual didn't make a difference when addressing overall skill level, but when that example was convenient for you to use, you used it, so no, you didn't grasp the point of my other post.
@Janitor and Munkus- yes, it is based on the discretion of the panelist, but to a certain degree. this would be like me saying in Melee, i had never seen, say, KDJ play before. but, i tried to preach to the ATL North that someone else with less credentials was better than him just based off of my own experience with him. it's fine if i think that, but to put him on a ranking like that above someone who is proven himself in more ways is ridiculous, and it is heavily biased. obviously, i am not saying that the skill level between Reflex and Will is as KDJ is to a random unknown person, but merely expressing the principal in which you seemed to have selected your ranking list. you can have a list of reasons, whatever they are, but again, it doesn't make them just or right simply because they are your reasons. the person you are arguing for 1st, Will, even agrees that Luis deserves the top spot. that speaks volumes. plus, he doesn't have to play YOU, Munkus, for you to see how he plays. he does well against/beats the BEST in the nation, so why would playing against you or myself even matter? do YOU win national tournies? no. do I? no. it's true that PR isn't 100% tourney rankings, but when the evidence is that strong, what you are doing is simply ranking on your own bias, instead of who is actually the better overall player. i only address reflex because he is one that i know about, and the only one on the list to have proven himself in the fashion i have aforementioned. by your logic, i should think that you or anyone else i have played is better than PC Chris simply because i have never played him. that would be ridiculous, considering his credentials. i would argue this point for anyone i knew, not just Luis. we are friends, he and i, but not great friends. i don't know him terribly well, but we have fun when we hang out. i'm not doing this out of bias towards Luis. Janitor, you seemed to have jumped into this mostly based on you just knowing Munkus better than you know me, so you are jumping to his side. i'm doing this because i think what Munkus is doing is wrong, no matter how stubborn he may want to be about it. it almost sounds as if Munkus just deliberately doesn't WANT him at the top for some other reason. maybe that's just me, but i don't see the logic at all in your decision, so it seems it would have to be heavy bias.
i don't see what the flaw is of having a system of ranking based on players proving themselves. if, in your example, Moogle lost to someone that won the tournament, and he ended up getting 5th overall, then he would need to step up his performance. no matter how good he may be or you think that he is, if he is not winning tournaments, and consistently got 5th, then why in the world would you put him any higher? that would be ridiculous because he has not proven to anyone that he is better than 5th. basing things on what playing styles YOU think are best, Munkus, should be irrelevant when someone has already proven themselves against the best competition around.
see, that's the point of trying to appoint a non-biased panel. if it were just based on who panelists liked, there would be no need to evaluate skill. you could just watch vids and base it off of which one entertains you more. also, even if players have similar placings in tournaments, you have to take into account the size of the tourney, who is there, AND who the person played at the tourney. if player A beats player B at a 10 man tourney, but player B goes to huge, 75+ man tournies, and places near the top while beating some of the best the nation has to offer, i think that he has proven his skill over player A.
in short, just do the rankings in a fair fashion. if i knew any other player on Alabama's PR list was getting unfair treatment, i would speak up, as well. i've done it at times in my own state's rankings. and, the panelists would give their reasons, some i thought were fair enough, and some i thought were not so much. but, the methods you have given seem greatly unfair. oh, and last point, i addressed you, Munkus, when you said that Will beat Reflex at that one tournament. we had JUST talked about how playing against one individual didn't make a difference when addressing overall skill level, but when that example was convenient for you to use, you used it, so no, you didn't grasp the point of my other post.
munkus beaver
Smash Journeyman
- Joined
- May 23, 2007
- Messages
- 460
- 3DS FC
- 0619-4510-9772
Just to address one thing at a time, I would have put Reflex at the top of the list until I had heard about Will beating him in a tourney setting. That made me realize that I needed be more objective and re-evaluate it. Part of the issue is that Reflex hasn't been to a preponderance of tournies in Alabama. I don't make decisions simply based on what I hear, because then there is no point of the panel, it would be a straight democracy. The only fights I see on youtube are the ones linked in the bama thread, and I already said I watched those and was impressed but not such that I would unanimously think he's the best in bama. I would get a much more complete idea of how he is if I saw him play. And I should point out that I didn't rank Reflex low on the list at all. Despite any grief you may have with my system, the only thing I didn't do was put him at number one. Note that aside from all my reservations I still put him above people I have far more information on based on what information I have.
To tell the truth, I think that first and third have the places tied, but the list doesn't allow that. Reflex and Will both have the potential to be the best in bama, they have both shown it in various ways. But I give the tie to Will based on the reasons I have already said.
The biggest issue here is that not everyone in Alabama is going to the same tournies. They are not playing the same players and are not being tested in the same way. I'm trying to make the best decision I can based on the limited evidence I have before me. No matter how you slice it, it's extremely hard to make any decision about rankings when you don't play the same people. Just look at the BCS, for crying out loud.
To tell the truth, I think that first and third have the places tied, but the list doesn't allow that. Reflex and Will both have the potential to be the best in bama, they have both shown it in various ways. But I give the tie to Will based on the reasons I have already said.
The biggest issue here is that not everyone in Alabama is going to the same tournies. They are not playing the same players and are not being tested in the same way. I'm trying to make the best decision I can based on the limited evidence I have before me. No matter how you slice it, it's extremely hard to make any decision about rankings when you don't play the same people. Just look at the BCS, for crying out loud.
anomaly
Smash Apprentice
it begins. no thread can escape.
GA Peach
Smash Lord
Luis lost to Will in one tournament with a very small amount of people in it, according to Luis. also, even if you take your reasoning for it, they just played in the same tournament recently, Impact Clash 2, which was a large tournament, at least a lot larger than the other one, and had more good players at it. you're still grading the tournaments as if they were the same, and they are not. once again, YOU don't have to be impressed with the player to give them a ranking. if the player wins, they win. simple as that, and reflex has been doing that. again, even the person you arguing to have first agrees that Luis should have the spot, and there's no disputing that, according to him. i still don't understand you using an abstract, emotion-based grading system over what has been a proven fact. and, it's not like there are RUMORS of Luis winning, he HAS been winning. it wouldn't be based off of what you HEAR, it would be based off of reality.
it doesn't matter that you didn't put him at a low spot. that isn't the issue. the issue is that you put him in an undeserved spot through unfair and biased means. if you had reflex ranked at the top, you should not have even considered dropping him because he got 2nd in one tournament(a small one at that). ranking a player is not something you do off of one performance, man. you're saying that it's hard to rank players that don't play the same people, but it's really not in this case. maybe Will can beat Cort or M2K, i don't know. however, the POTENTIAL of a player does not go into the rankings. when a player is playing some of the best, and placing very well, and someone else is NOT playing the best, him placing well is over-shadowed because he is playing less skilled players. they may or may not be as skilled, but again, PROVING it is where the difference lies. Will has not done that, Luis has.
it doesn't matter that you didn't put him at a low spot. that isn't the issue. the issue is that you put him in an undeserved spot through unfair and biased means. if you had reflex ranked at the top, you should not have even considered dropping him because he got 2nd in one tournament(a small one at that). ranking a player is not something you do off of one performance, man. you're saying that it's hard to rank players that don't play the same people, but it's really not in this case. maybe Will can beat Cort or M2K, i don't know. however, the POTENTIAL of a player does not go into the rankings. when a player is playing some of the best, and placing very well, and someone else is NOT playing the best, him placing well is over-shadowed because he is playing less skilled players. they may or may not be as skilled, but again, PROVING it is where the difference lies. Will has not done that, Luis has.
Mahgnittoc
Smash Ace
I can't wait until gamebox!
Majist
Smash Journeyman
Marty, I understand what you're saying, and i agree. But Munkus has never been one to base his opinions and judgments off of bias or emotion. He's the most methodical, logical person i know. If he weren't, he would have at least given me an honorable mention because no one has played him more than myself, and I AM capable of beating him. It doesn't happen often (insert character johns here), but it's not like he 2-stocks me every match; most of them are darn close.
GA Peach
Smash Lord
that may or may not be true, shannon. but again, like i told Janitor, don't look at the fact that you KNOW him, look at what he is doing right now. i don't doubt that Will is normally logical, but the facts presented prove that this decision is made through other means. everything has already been stated about Luis proving himself to be a more dominant player at this time. even the person he said should be at the top agrees that Luis is a better player, and deserves the spot. there's not too much more to say, except that Will is making his list against what the most dominant evidence availiable would dictate based on his preference of playing styles.
Will_
Smash Journeyman
- Joined
- Jul 2, 2008
- Messages
- 236
That's enough. It's the ranking methods of one panelist on a non-consequential Power Rankings list. Not worth pages of arguing over.
Reflex and I are both respected players in our state(Luis moreso, for good reason) so I could give a flying **** about where our names are placed. Please stop arguing about it. I liked it better when it was playful hype, not srs business.
Reflex and I are both respected players in our state(Luis moreso, for good reason) so I could give a flying **** about where our names are placed. Please stop arguing about it. I liked it better when it was playful hype, not srs business.
munkus beaver
Smash Journeyman
- Joined
- May 23, 2007
- Messages
- 460
- 3DS FC
- 0619-4510-9772
Dammit Will, these are important issues that will determine the course of the smash community for years on end! Bar wenches and table hussies will sing songs about these lists while they pour the ale and honey for their smash-lords! The names on this list shall be valued at $100 a barrel and cause smashboards to replace Saudia Arabia as the central power in the middle east! The fact that you can not see this makes you a fool, ranked below even Warrance McGumbly on the rankings! I say to you sir, Good Day!
Daysoo
Smash Ace
Desu for #1 on your state's PR.
He doesn't afraid of anything.
Logic and reason included.
He doesn't afraid of anything.
Logic and reason included.
Majist
Smash Journeyman
Dat's becuz Ike and Marth brought you the PAIN last night, bwahahahahahaa!!!
well, maybe a little...
GA Peach
Smash Lord
i just like seeing things done in a fair fashion, but if you guys want it like that, whatev.
~^.NoiR.^~
Smash Ace
That's the way it should be. A panel makes it political. Biases COULD come into play or mere opinion. Neither should come into play when you want to rank somebody. I don't know the way you guys run panels or use to, but this doesn't seem like the best way to do it. Gamebattles ladders aren't based on opinion or experience playing them. Nor is MLG, Starcraft's Starleague, WCG, CPL or any other large ladder. It's based on results and a point system. My ladder is a good example, minus the extra stuff. That stuff was just included to get more participation and bring more people into the community(which obviously isn't working LOL).
That's how a ladder should be ran. Not by opinion or possible biases. In my opinion, I think I'm better than Desu and BigLou(no disrespect of course and don't take it the wrong way). I just don't know how to play DeDeDe or Luigis. The more I play either one of their mains(characters I'm not use to playing), the better I do and the more consistent I win. Am I #1 on our Power rankings? No. I haven't even been considered to be on the top yet lol...and that is just my opinion. I'm sure Desu thinks differently and I'm sure most of you do as well.
The point is that panels and the way you guys are judging skill, isn't the best way of ranking the players IMO.
If you want to be traditional and keep it politics, then that's you guys. I don't agree with it though.
You guys should really try to organize the smash scene and make it more professional. Right now the competitive part is really only good for money and hanging out with people. There's really no spots to earn
Halo 3- MLG
CS- CAL and a bunch of others
Starcraft- a lot...but I'll go with iccup
Smash- randomness
Maybe it's a fighter game thing? I don't know.
GA Peach
Smash Lord
dood, don't even try. believe me, they aren't listening. let them do it the way they want to do it. because that's what's important... <_<
I hope you aren't including me in this "they" stuff. I hate this game anyways. >:3
The Alpha Gundam
Smash Champion
wrong thread >.>
smh.................
moogle
Smash Ace
munkus is a professional arguer. He should come with a disclaimer: "The views and opinions of munkus beaver presented herein do not necessarily reflect those of the Alabama Brawl Power Rankings panel." Umm, bottom line... try to not get frustrated from arguing with him.
His methods may be a little different from the norm, but (theONEjanitor's words) "the criteria for the list was lax."Sensai
Smash Master
Did you guys know there is like...a wall of text on the page before this one?
True story. Now my eyes are bleeding.
True story. Now my eyes are bleeding.
munkus beaver
Smash Journeyman
- Joined
- May 23, 2007
- Messages
- 460
- 3DS FC
- 0619-4510-9772
You cut me deep, Andy.
You cut me real deep.
You cut me real deep.
And it isn't about Melee! So it probably isn't worth reading.
~^.NoiR.^~
Smash Ace
Well it's just my 2 cents from experience and a little common sense. My opinion goes to the GA PR as well. We need to develop a point system and make it more professional. If we make it more professional, then we may be able to attract more competitive gamers to the smash scene. The competitive smash scene is kind of a joke to be honest. Like I said it's good to make some cash(not even a lot) and to hang out with friends lol. We should change that.
theONEjanitor
Smash Champion
This is why i hate intarweb arguments, there always comes a time when ppl start pulling things out of their *** rather than actual rebuttals
btwizzle, if you read the post i was actually disagreeing with both of you
who cares about the size of the tournament. they PLAYED each other. what everyone else was doing is irrellevant
second the "evidence" isn't 'overwhelming'. will got like one millionth in fast1, and obviously he underperformed at that tournament, he wasnt play up to his potential. but you wouldn't know that because you dont know anything about will.
impact clash, will got 5th reflex got second. My god reflex is OBV ten times better than will with those results. the evidence is THAT STRONG
and the other tournament will beat reflex, in a tournament, for money. regardless of the size. I happen to think reflex was rusty then and is no longer rusty, which is why I put him at number 1...but theres this whole thing called an "opinion" which is really neat
you're saying that munkus is saying "since i've never played reflex, that means i dont know if he's good or not". which isn't what anyone is saying. so methinks you are the one who isn't listening.
and smash isn't and will never be serious business for any of us. we're all just bored on the internets, coming in her saying OMGZ GUYS STOP FIGHTING UR MAKEN ME SAD is kind of making it seems more serious than it is
Are these going to be more-or-less perpetually updated, or are you doing it after periods of time?
~^.NoiR.^~
Smash Ace
and you're on the panel for your state? This is why smash will always be a pathetic competitive game. If I could choose to be st8 rippin, SlayerS_BoxeR, Complexity LA, or M2K I would choose to be M2K last. M2K is the best in the world at what he does, but definitely doesn't have the recognition or the prize money he deserves.
Also, I think high school soccer players are all around better than professional players. I'm entitled to my opinion, so it must be correct.
munkus beaver
Smash Journeyman
- Joined
- May 23, 2007
- Messages
- 460
- 3DS FC
- 0619-4510-9772
AFAIK, it will be updated on an individual basis. I can only speak for myself, but I will change my rankings if I feel there has been enough evidence for a shift. So I'll update my list perpetually.
I'm sure we can arrange a 'panel reconvene' every X months or so.
And really, we all do so appreciate when the argument has continued long beyond the breaking point of anybody caring, far into the realm of tedium and annoyance. The cases have been made, anything said beyond this point serves no purpose but to shift the spotlight toward your area of the stage. Words expended to further this tiresome endeavor only further corrupt a whimsical and fun list into a bitter and distasteful doldrum.
Sensai
Smash Master
I should be #1 on the power rankings, as I don't play Brawl.
/thread
/thread
- Joined
- Apr 10, 2008
- Messages
- 6,860
I made it in paint. lol
Awesome. I'm going to become infamous in the Brawl community for this.
Majist
Smash Journeyman
dude, that's freaking amazing
GA Peach
Smash Lord
@Moogle - i'm not really frustrated, man. i was trying to get them see a more fair way of doing things through a simple debate. i believe i have the facts to back up what i am saying, so i want everyone to see that through results and placings at tournaments, it would be more fair towards all the players. that disclaimer line speaks volumes, though... <_<
@JWT2k6 - nah, i wasn't addressing you, dood. i don't think you were even in on the discussion, so no. "they" is only applying to Munkus and Janitor atm. also, my post isn't about Melee or Brawl, specifically. it's about a fair way to do rankings. so, if you care about that, then it is worth reading. if not, then i guess it isn't
@Sensai - ...how do your eyes bleed from reading text that would barely take up a page or two in a book...? were you traumatized by a book as a youngster? @_@
@Janitor - ...oh wow. so be it, rebuttal time. the only way someone would take Munkus's way of grading players over tournament rankings is by favortism, which is what you displayed. this wasn't about "my way vs munkus's way", it was "overall tournament performance vs munkus's way". even now in your post, you show bias. why should i have to know anything about Will_ to know that he is a good player? shouldn't his track record be able to speak for itself? i don't HAVE to know anything about Reflex. why? because of his track record. again, that would be like me having to know something about M2K to establish that he is good at smash bros., even though he has a track record like he does. also, munkus stated various times in this thread about players he wasn't considering for placings on the list, AND about only putting Reflex where he was because he hadn't played him. i shouldn't have to argue that because it is in this thread. also, the size of a tournament matters greatly. more players means more variety of styles to play against, and that means a better judge of how a player adapts, which in fighting games, is most of the skill involved in it. especially at FAST1, where there were a lot of good players there. when a player has to make it through a tough bracket, it shows their skill, as they have to fight many people they are not used to fighting that are good at the game. again, Will_ beat Reflex at that small, Alabama tourney, yes, but when they were fighting a lot of other skilled players, at FAST1 and IC2, Reflex proved he was the better all-around player, which is what the PR should be about. i want to say again that i don't want to take anything away from Will_, and nothing i am saying is a personal attack at anyone. i'm just stating factual results from tournaments. which brings me to another rebuttal point. potential has NOTHING to do with player rankings. i don't doubt Will_'s talents. i'm sure he is a very good player. he'd have to be for people to defend him as so. but, PR is results, and proving yourself. perhaps he will do that in the future, but as of right now, that advantage goes to Luis. it's just the way it is. i'll give you another example. i can beat the best Brawl players in my state with Peach. Even Desu, who mains Dedede. i don't even play Brawl very much. I'm not even being CONSIDERED for the PR, and i am content with it. want to know why? because i don't deserve it. i don't enter the tournaments, so i don't have the RESULTS to be on the list. same with melee. i compete with the top players in my state using Roy while they use MUCH better characters. but, i don't enter tournaments, so i'm not being considered for a spot in the PR. and that is fine, because i don't deserve the ranking due to a lack of results. also, no one even said that Reflex was "10 times better than Will_", as you so put it. i simply said he deserved the #1 spot because he proved himself considerably more than Will_ did. if Will_ out performs Luis considerably at a major tournament, then that will be him proving himself moreso than Luis, and by all means, take that into consideration when and if that happens. and, in closing, i do agree with Noir in saying that i think it's sad you don't take a game you try to play competitively seriously. attitudes like that really don't do anything for the community, much less a PR panelist that won't take it seriously.
@Munkus - i fail to see how discussing a PR list would "corrupt" it, as you described. if anything, it should help to strengthen the list by having you think more about it, which was my goal. also, why is your list whimsical? this has been my point all along. why are you making your list even remotely based off anything besides facts? also, i don't see how talking about the list has made you stop caring about it. it's not about pulling "spotlight" over to one's side. while you may or may not be arguing for attention, as i said before, i was arguing because i read how you did the PR, and i thought it was unfair. i continued to debating against it because you failed to give me a solid reason as to why the way you conducted your selection was a fair way to do, and you simply responded to me with things such as, "You can disagree with my opinion all you like" and various things of that nature. The opinion of the panelists is reserved for when players have been obtaining extremely similar results at extremely similar tournaments. even then, the personal opinion of the panelists should be kept at a minimum. this keeps things more objective.
@Will_ and the rest of the thread - correct me if i'm wrong, but i really don't see what is wrong with discussion about a rankings list. coming from other communities, the rankings lists were discussed a lot, and in great detail. people cared about who was ranked as the best, and they cared about being fair as well. if someone had a problem, they addressed it. i haven't been disrespectful to anyone in here, and i haven't been irate about anything. i just thought it was done poorly, and thought that, if anything, people would be open for a structure and ideas that would help improve upon what you guys had already done. but, from what i have gathered now, you all don't seem to care to much about maintaining a competitive structure, and that's really what is at the heart of it. why even play in tournaments? if anything, you could save money and time by just smashing at someone's house casually, if that's the attitude towards the PR. the PR is supposed to be about competition, to put on paper who is the best. or at least, who is performing the best at the time.
@JWT2k6 - nah, i wasn't addressing you, dood. i don't think you were even in on the discussion, so no. "they" is only applying to Munkus and Janitor atm. also, my post isn't about Melee or Brawl, specifically. it's about a fair way to do rankings. so, if you care about that, then it is worth reading. if not, then i guess it isn't
@Sensai - ...how do your eyes bleed from reading text that would barely take up a page or two in a book...? were you traumatized by a book as a youngster? @_@
@Janitor - ...oh wow. so be it, rebuttal time. the only way someone would take Munkus's way of grading players over tournament rankings is by favortism, which is what you displayed. this wasn't about "my way vs munkus's way", it was "overall tournament performance vs munkus's way". even now in your post, you show bias. why should i have to know anything about Will_ to know that he is a good player? shouldn't his track record be able to speak for itself? i don't HAVE to know anything about Reflex. why? because of his track record. again, that would be like me having to know something about M2K to establish that he is good at smash bros., even though he has a track record like he does. also, munkus stated various times in this thread about players he wasn't considering for placings on the list, AND about only putting Reflex where he was because he hadn't played him. i shouldn't have to argue that because it is in this thread. also, the size of a tournament matters greatly. more players means more variety of styles to play against, and that means a better judge of how a player adapts, which in fighting games, is most of the skill involved in it. especially at FAST1, where there were a lot of good players there. when a player has to make it through a tough bracket, it shows their skill, as they have to fight many people they are not used to fighting that are good at the game. again, Will_ beat Reflex at that small, Alabama tourney, yes, but when they were fighting a lot of other skilled players, at FAST1 and IC2, Reflex proved he was the better all-around player, which is what the PR should be about. i want to say again that i don't want to take anything away from Will_, and nothing i am saying is a personal attack at anyone. i'm just stating factual results from tournaments. which brings me to another rebuttal point. potential has NOTHING to do with player rankings. i don't doubt Will_'s talents. i'm sure he is a very good player. he'd have to be for people to defend him as so. but, PR is results, and proving yourself. perhaps he will do that in the future, but as of right now, that advantage goes to Luis. it's just the way it is. i'll give you another example. i can beat the best Brawl players in my state with Peach. Even Desu, who mains Dedede. i don't even play Brawl very much. I'm not even being CONSIDERED for the PR, and i am content with it. want to know why? because i don't deserve it. i don't enter the tournaments, so i don't have the RESULTS to be on the list. same with melee. i compete with the top players in my state using Roy while they use MUCH better characters. but, i don't enter tournaments, so i'm not being considered for a spot in the PR. and that is fine, because i don't deserve the ranking due to a lack of results. also, no one even said that Reflex was "10 times better than Will_", as you so put it. i simply said he deserved the #1 spot because he proved himself considerably more than Will_ did. if Will_ out performs Luis considerably at a major tournament, then that will be him proving himself moreso than Luis, and by all means, take that into consideration when and if that happens. and, in closing, i do agree with Noir in saying that i think it's sad you don't take a game you try to play competitively seriously. attitudes like that really don't do anything for the community, much less a PR panelist that won't take it seriously.
@Munkus - i fail to see how discussing a PR list would "corrupt" it, as you described. if anything, it should help to strengthen the list by having you think more about it, which was my goal. also, why is your list whimsical? this has been my point all along. why are you making your list even remotely based off anything besides facts? also, i don't see how talking about the list has made you stop caring about it. it's not about pulling "spotlight" over to one's side. while you may or may not be arguing for attention, as i said before, i was arguing because i read how you did the PR, and i thought it was unfair. i continued to debating against it because you failed to give me a solid reason as to why the way you conducted your selection was a fair way to do, and you simply responded to me with things such as, "You can disagree with my opinion all you like" and various things of that nature. The opinion of the panelists is reserved for when players have been obtaining extremely similar results at extremely similar tournaments. even then, the personal opinion of the panelists should be kept at a minimum. this keeps things more objective.
@Will_ and the rest of the thread - correct me if i'm wrong, but i really don't see what is wrong with discussion about a rankings list. coming from other communities, the rankings lists were discussed a lot, and in great detail. people cared about who was ranked as the best, and they cared about being fair as well. if someone had a problem, they addressed it. i haven't been disrespectful to anyone in here, and i haven't been irate about anything. i just thought it was done poorly, and thought that, if anything, people would be open for a structure and ideas that would help improve upon what you guys had already done. but, from what i have gathered now, you all don't seem to care to much about maintaining a competitive structure, and that's really what is at the heart of it. why even play in tournaments? if anything, you could save money and time by just smashing at someone's house casually, if that's the attitude towards the PR. the PR is supposed to be about competition, to put on paper who is the best. or at least, who is performing the best at the time.