The North/West Pennsylvania Thread! HSV 3 October 27th!

[mib004]

my thing is that MMs have tons of problems surrounding them. ppl potentially fudging results, panelists having to watch these things like a hawk, people telling us to monitor them like crazy, ppl being pissed when we dont monitor then when MMs happen without a panelist, possibility of some ppl forgeting things, ppl doing MMs with other characters, etc etc etc etc

tournaments we have a sanctioned event ran by TOs, and hard results in the tourney results section/AiB with brackets etc

cant beat that

All Hail Chibo.

 

[FuRyOf1000SuNs]

Then why don't you guys just have money matches count only while they're at tourney and we can write it down just like ppl do for bracket.. then have the opponent sign off on it and a witness, though that's really homosexual if it were to come to that..

Obviously, if someone lies one time then that person isn't going to be able to do any more money matches with the person they lied against and everyone else that he talked to and believe him.. It's in their best interest not to lie imo cuz they would just screw themselves over in the end and nobody would wanna mm them anyway

 

[dextasmurf]

@Chibo- squall beat atomsk in tourney y isn't that counted 100=ercent.....becuzz he went snake to sandbag, squall lost to inui in tourney cuzz he didn't care and knew he could beat him if he wanted to...pool match wit VEX vs fury vex went snake pool match wit boss ans squall boss went mario....

it's our job (panalist) to look over mmz if you don't want to do it don't b a a panalist imo. I don't see people sandbaggin in a 5mm unless it's m2: ally dehf etc.

 

[Inui]

Squall lost to me due to MLG rules and him thinking MK ***** Dedede for free when he doesn't.

 

[Vex Kasrani]

Squall lost to me due to MLG rules and him thinking MK ***** Dedede for free when he doesn't.

It's not free unless the MK knows the matchup ;[

 

[KayLo!]

I really think it's silly that y'all wanna make mms not count only because people might lie about them.

Of course people might. But that number is low, and the panel has always caught them. Whyyyyy are we suddenly so worried about it now? I really don't get it.

Up the amount to $10, make them only count at tournies, whatever..... but cutting out mms completely is so limiting. Some people get bracket *****, some people don't get to face the right people to prove themselves in one season (depending on which tournies they can make it to), and imo, it's punishing 95% of the state's players for the few people who've lied (and, I repeat, BEEN CAUGHT) in the past.

@Matt: I agree that people buying their way onto the PR via mms is stupid, but that's why they should count a lot less than tournament. But they should still count. You still played that person with money on the line in a legit set.

 

[CT Chia]

like i want them to count, but if ppl agree for said match to count for rankings with panelists watching, money shouldnt be an issue technically

 

[KayLo!]

Money makes people play more seriously, though, that's the whole point of a mm. -____- Come on, Chibo.

 

[CT Chia]

But if both people agree to say, we're playing our best, we want this to count for rankings, what's the difference?

If the limit for MMs were bumped up to $10, I don't want to risk $10 every single time I'm trying to get results.

 

[KayLo!]

So make it $5 like it's always been, let's figure out how much mms count in comparison to tourney, and we call it a day.

& the difference is money. I dunno where you're from where you can throw away $5 here and there without caring, but where I'm from, there's a difference between only saying you'll play your best and putting money on it. If there's no money at stake, people could do a billion "rankings matches" in a row with nothing to lose but rep.

With money matches, you could potentially lose a ****ton of money by trying so many times in a row.

 

[dextasmurf]

But if both people agree to say, we're playing our best, we want this to count for rankings, what's the difference?

If the limit for MMs were bumped up to $10, I don't want to risk $10 every single time I'm trying to get results.

are u tryna say people would play the same for 10 vs a serious PR match??? cuzz if so0o u need to put 10 on the line and see how much u care about it...

and thats the WHOLE POInt for the mm being 10bucks CHIBO u dont want to lose that money..if u wanna play someone but dont want them to sandbag then say 5 or 7...and the RISK factor is the reason y they count towards PRs cuzz wen u lose u are out of money, thus to MIB y mms should count towards rankings

 

[CT Chia]

if you tell the panelist that its for rankings, that's what you have on the line beyond the money that you could put down if you want

how do we decide how much it counts though? its putting a numerical value on a non numerical standard. if its a valid set its a valid set. i would be more willing to accept that it counts the same providing that both players are fully aware that it counts for rankings, etc etc. the only problems that it brings up that makes me hesitant to make it count the same, is stuff like the boss debate last season.
kingtoon and vex beats boss' luigi in tourney
boss beats smurf in tourney with luigi
smurf mm's boss, boss goes gaw and smurf wins
boss wants to run it back (maybe to go luigi?) and smurf refuses

 

[KayLo!]

Chibo, the concept of "rankings matches" is dumb (no offense), so let's cut that idea right now. With mms, once you're out of money, you're out of money. Basically what Smurf said.

- With "serious rankings matches," John could challenge Squall 50 times and lose 50 times, and at the end of it, the only thing proven is that Squall is better than John. Oh well.
- With mms, if John mms Squall even a few times and loses, he's out of a good bit of money and won't keep playing unless he's REALLY **** SURE he can beat Squall. He's gonna play his best, because there's increased risk for losing, and Squall's gonna wanna keep that money.

As for your problem with putting a value on mms compared to tourney, that's what the panel already does in a dozen situations. Wins vs. losses. Mains vs. secondaries. Earlier wins vs. more recent ones between two people who've played each other multiple times.

If it was a simple mathematical equation, we'd put it into a computer and get a nice little list to pop out..... but it's not. You're trying to skip out on doing what the panel is supposed to do: make objective decisions with subjective data, which is what any PR list is.

 

[CT Chia]

good points

what if we add a rule that you can not MM the same person more than once a week? it prevents the ppl MM each other 50 times, and makes ppl try more knowing that they cant "run it back"

 

[KayLo!]

My honest opinion is that you're overthinking this, lol.

I think we should keep everything the same ($5+ mms count, they all need witnesses) but lower how important mms are compared to tourney..... TUSM's list he posted a while back looks good to me.

(I'd cut out small tourney pools matches entirely since I personally think they're unnecessary/kinda silly, but I don't have a strong opinion on that yet.)

If people know mms don't count THAT much towards rankings, they'll be less inclined to lie (since there's little gain in it), but they'll still play seriously (because there's money on the line).

 

[CT Chia]

if theyr only gonna count a lil, then tbh whats the point at all?

like what if smurf beats boss, squall, inui, shadow, and lee martin in MMs

and i beat inui, smurf, logic, xzax, and will in tourney

smurf's list is obv better, but if it all counts less, wouldnt i be ranked above him?
seems kind of awkward if smurfs list straight up looks better, but are all MM wins

but if theyr all MM wins, wouldnt he be ranked mad low and losing to pretty much anyone with at least ok tourney wins?

 

[KayLo!]

When I said "not that much," I didn't mean virtually nothing, lol. But much less than tourney.

The relative amount is what the panel needs to decide together, but as for how I'd look at it.... it depends on who Smurf beat in tourney. If his hypothetical tourney wins are close to yours, he'd be ranked higher; if they're notably inferior to yours (like him vs. Kenny last season), he'd be ranked lower. This is assuming everyone used their mains and that neither of you have any bad losses.

The main point is that tournament should be first and foremost. MMs should count and be a boost in the case of a close call, but if someone completely outstrips you in tournament, that should mean a lot more than mm wins.

 

[CT Chia]

what about wins vs losses

im inclined to believe that wins count much more than losses

i would probably put MMs above in importance than the losses ppl get to an extent

 

[KayLo!]

Honestly, I think losses should be the last thing looked at. But that's just me..... dunno how differently other people might feel or if there's a case for them to be a big deal.

I used up all my logic for today..... goin to get some dinner. =X You should come to practice in a bit! Get Smurf to pick your *** up.

 

[dextasmurf]

u puttin too much thought into it chibz wen we are debating the issue thats wen we figure things out..everything u are saying is hypothetical.

 

[CT Chia]

if we dont figure it out ahead of time then ppl get angry :/

 

[chimpact]

Just use tournament results mainly and if there are players that are really close on the PR, compare their MMs. If smurf beats all those ppl in a MM, hes gonna be having really good tournament results. if he doesnt have good results, hed be ranked much lower than if MM weighed the same as tourney.

 

[Xzax Kasrani]

You never care about being this in-depth about anything unless your against it chibo.....

 

[FuRyOf1000SuNs]

Yo, just use Tusm's list and I'm sure you guys are smart enough to figure out what should weigh more depending on the skill of the opponent beat. For instance, if Smurf beat M2K in a $5MM, that would count a lot more than Chibo beating Candy in bracket, right?? So you can't just say that Tourney wins > MM wins.. People that say they sandbag in MMs are just as likely to say they sandbagged in tourney... they both count

 

[KT Kasrani]

if ur gonna be beating all these good people in mm u should be doin good in tourny also.

PR are about people in the state who are a tourny threat. so why cant we leave it at that? mm's should be for you. if u wanna play some1 for money then go for it. but thats all it should be for. mm's should only be brought into effect wen two people are close in tourny wins and u cant decide.

 

[FuRyOf1000SuNs]

Yea but ppl often get bracket ***** and if they want to prove themselves, they have to become amazing just to even make it through tourney..

You see, if I get better and everyone knows I got better, I'm not going to be seeded any better in bracket just bc they "know" it.. There has to be some legit reason for me to be seeded higher than I used to be.. How can I make it through tourney and prove myself if I'm terribly seeded and have to face nairo, atomsk, ksizzle, shadow, etc...? My increase in skill has to be god-like to beat these guys and prove myself so it leaves no room to show gradual improvement whereas MMs help ppl realize that I should be seeded better in tourney to have the chance to prove myself against players that are on the same skill level or close to it that I am instead of face off against players that dominate the nation at this game

 

[mib004]

if ur gonna be beating all these good people in mm u should be doin good in tourny also.

PR are about people in the state who are a tourny threat. so why cant we leave it at that? mm's should be for you. if u wanna play some1 for money then go for it. but thats all it should be for. mm's should only be brought into effect wen two people are close in tourny wins and u cant decide.

thank youuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu

 

[Inui]

Kaylo for head panelist.

It's not free unless the MK knows the matchup ;[

It's still not free. The MK must camp hard and deal a ton of damage to win.

 

[CT Chia]

@xzax - im doing all this to avoid it coming up later, and im debating more than just MMs counting or not. i wouldnt mind them counting, its just that i think they over complicate the process and logic like what kingtoon says here \/ seems legit. even if and when we decide MMs to count, we still need guidelines like how much they count, and which MMs count.

if ur gonna be beating all these good people in mm u should be doin good in tourny also.

PR are about people in the state who are a tourny threat. so why cant we leave it at that? mm's should be for you. if u wanna play some1 for money then go for it. but thats all it should be for. mm's should only be brought into effect wen two people are close in tourny wins and u cant decide.

this is what i feel more or less

if someone can get all these results why cant they get em in tourney? if they arent getting wins in tourney, something is goin wrong

Yea but ppl often get bracket ***** and if they want to prove themselves, they have to become amazing just to even make it through tourney..

You see, if I get better and everyone knows I got better, I'm not going to be seeded any better in bracket just bc they "know" it.. There has to be some legit reason for me to be seeded higher than I used to be.. How can I make it through tourney and prove myself if I'm terribly seeded and have to face nairo, atomsk, ksizzle, shadow, etc...? My increase in skill has to be god-like to beat these guys and prove myself so it leaves no room to show gradual improvement whereas MMs help ppl realize that I should be seeded better in tourney to have the chance to prove myself against players that are on the same skill level or close to it that I am instead of face off against players that dominate the nation at this game

being bracket ***** is a rare thing, and happens more in mlg than anything else b/c of random seeding. the better you do, the higher you are seeded. maybe wins in MMs and stuff can prove that you deserve higher seeding in tourneys.

Also, idk about the whole beating M2K in a MM thing, if that's like a random diamond in the rough win he has, don't you think he would have a lot more than that, or beat M2K in tourney, etc etc. Not saying something was falsified, but wouldn't it be kind of awkward?

---

We also want to reward activity to an extent, look at ksizzle in NJ. the more tourneys you go to = more results you get so with counting solely on tourneys helps in that sense.

 

[Vex Kasrani]

Kaylo for head panelist.



It's still not free. The MK must camp hard and deal a ton of damage to win.

Still pretty free when DDD can't really stop it ;[

 

[dextasmurf]

chibo thats where the panalist come in and decide how much weight to put on the mm -_-

 

[CT Chia]

So MMs are also of variable weight now (besides money)?

Man these things are ridiculous. People have such a hard on for getting results and rankings. Why shouldn't this just be for based on tourney threat and based on tournament results lol

Like when Xzax and Fury MM'd for $5 and wanted it to count for rankings earlier this season. And Xzax was Falco vs Fury's MK lol. Why? Like what does this do for both of them rankings wise? Does it hardly count for Xzax being a loss as his secondary? Does it hardly count for Fury being a MM win on Xzax's secondary? What's the point then?

What about Fury losing to Inui in tourney and beating him in MM. Does the MM even redeem him at all? If the tourney is a lot more important, then what's the point since the MM is pretty much invalidated in that he lost in whats more important.

 

[KayLo!]

Chibo, calm down before your robot brain explodes. x.o

Seriously, you're getting waaaaay too into the details and hypothetical what-ifs and OMGWHATIFWECAN'TCOMPUTE?!?!?! Tourney is basically what's gonna count for everything, and mms are gonna count a little on the side. It's not that difficult to handle..... x.x If things are borderline, we'll figure it out.

We don't gotta cut things out just to make it easier. All people need to know is that mms $5+ count but not nearly as much as tourney.

The only problem we've really had so far with mm value has been Smurf vs. Kenny, and imo we made the right decision in the end by putting Kenny over him for a stronger tourney performance. Otherwise...... why are we worrying so much about this? ;;

 

[Inui]

Kaylo: The Voice of Reason

 

[CT Chia]

Chibo: The Robot Conundrum

 

[FuRyOf1000SuNs]

Alright so have we decided that MMs are gonna count for this season at least?

 

[The Phazon Assassin]

You know, I've never seen this problem in any other fighting game. Or any other game period. I don't know who said it, but just go by tourney performance, and use MM's as a tie-breaker of sorts.

And, when was PR ever about who"s SOLELY a tourney threat? I thought it represented the top 10 players overall in the state.

 

[KT Kasrani]

^^^ it shows the top 10 players in the state who are a tourny threat. u have to get on the PR by goin to tournaments. so u have to be a threat and beat good people to get high on the PR.

 

[CT Chia]

If it's just a tie breaker what's the point

1. there shouldnt be any ties, no one is gonna have identical results
2. what if between two ppl in a tie, one person has some wins and losses in MMs while the other person has 0 or close to no MMs?

 

[Xzax Kasrani]

IDC anymore. This is too much for one thing, yes, I'm saying this was blown out of proportion.

We need more PA tournies then to decide PA vs PA