The North/West Pennsylvania Thread! HSV 3 October 27th!

[Kaiber Kop]

^ the grand prize in tourney is always going to be more than what someone is mm'ing for.. therefore the level of play is going to be higher, bc the amount won is greater.

i understand that it's hard to put a set % to it, but something needs to be figured out where you don't have to eliminate it completely. What happens if someone gets seeded poorly and loses to a pro round 1 and a top ranked player shortly after that in losers bc of an upset or something? That person doesn't have a great opportunity to show that he can place higher than other ppl in the bracket.

I'm just trying to stir ideas around, idk of any solutions. In the end though, you're right, Chibo. You can't put a % to it and it'll most likely have to be voted for either counting or not counting.

It's true that MM's usually will never be higher than the prize money for a tournament, but how many people consistenly take 1st and other top spots at events. It's a very select group.

With MM's, direct money is on the line and winnable for either player. This should promote more competitive play than anything(no, I'm not saying mm's>>tourny) but they should be equal.

The thought of someone going overboard with them means they should just have a set amount that has to be involved and up. I know $5 is quite popular, but if someone said thats too low I think 10 would be very fair.

 

[dextasmurf]

tusm although wut you put is correct you can't follow it 100percent...example: player a beats player B in bracket...player B challenges player A to a 20mm and winz, cab you still say the tourney win iz higher? Imo it's situational and depends....thats y we have a panel

 

[Inui]

Considering the vast majority of players win $0 in tournaments and know they will (just being honest), MMs are probably more significant to those people. At least they should be.

 

[The Phazon Assassin]

tusm although wut you put is correct you can't follow it 100percent...example: player a beats player B in bracket...player B challenges player A to a 20mm and winz, cab you still say the tourney win iz higher? Imo it's situational and depends....thats y we have a panel

Point taken, but when the panel is trying to say that MM's shouldn't count, I think people should start to rethink a few things.

But, yeah, obviously the higher the MM, the more it should count. Another thing to take into account is how far into the bracket this match took place. Yeah, I'm going much deeper than need be, but that's how I do things.

 

[mib004]

mm only should get u money and bragging rights thats itttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttt. people suck in tourney then do mm to get by on the rankings which is stupid. Its not fair to the people that don't got money lol

 

[CT Chia]

PR is normally seen as a list of tourney threats right?

That's the stuff MIB

 

[Keitaro]

I don't mind them counting but I'm currently questioning why people don't just mm their friend twice and just win one.

That way both players have a win on each other and lose no money.

What is stopping Squall and myself from doing 2 mms on each other and winning one each on purpose??

Nothing. That's the answer.

And if wins > losses then allowing mms for rankings will cause corruption unless something is made to fix this.

 

[The Phazon Assassin]

So basically, what you're saying is that anything short of tourney shouldn't count? Like pools, why do they count? Especially in a situation where there's absolutely no pressure to get out.

You can't completely ignore the validity of MM's. Even if it is just for 5 bucks, they mean something.

When it came to to people playing each other, I always thought and felt like the more recent result has a bit more priority. That would kinda settle the dispute......right?

 

[CT Chia]

Exactly, there's no stopping people from doing such things. In tourney people aren't going to sacrifice wins, and we have brackets from results to provide hard evidence on things that happened.

Also not to mention 90% of MMs here are within local players, half of which are probably inner crew MMs. If someone MMs Squall like 10 times, they are bound to get one set off of him lol.

 

[The Phazon Assassin]

Exactly, there's no stopping people from doing such things. In tourney people aren't going to sacrifice wins, and we have brackets from results to provide hard evidence on things that happened.

Also not to mention 90% of MMs here are within local players, half of which are probably inner crew MMs. If someone MMs Squall like 10 times, they are bound to get one set off of him lol.

1. Ally Vs. Nick Riddle.

2. I thought inner crew and inner region MM's didn't count?

 

[KayLo!]

@Chibo: But they lost a ****ton of money in the process. As long as somebody's there to spectate and make sure the mms are legit, it shouldn't matter..... obviously Squall is still better than that person -- that's why we're a panel of people, not robots. We can consider factors outside of straight wins/losses.

Not saying mms should be equal to tourney at all. In fact, I think they count too much as is. But they still mean something.... there's still money on the line.

 

[Keitaro]

By saying the more recent result is better then I can easily just let Squall get the 2nd mm win or him let me win the 2nd mm. Regardless its still a win for each player that has to be taken into account and can't be ignored if both players did the mms and said it was legit.

 

[KayLo!]

That's what honest spectators are for.

If you don't trust people to be honest, then.... well, ****.

 

[The Phazon Assassin]

By saying the more recent result is better than I can easily just let Squall get the 2nd mm win or him let me win the 2nd mm. Regardless its still a win for each player that has to be taken into account and can't be ignored if both players did the mms and said it was legit.

The same could be said about pool matches, it's even been done within bracket, letting someone in so they can get a favorable matchup, then destroying them in loser's. There's never going to be 100% honesty, and there's no way around this.

 

[CT Chia]

even with spectators, resuls can still be fudged

@ tusm: I dont even know what the guidelines are lol
what MMs do and dont count idk

edit: in regards to pools
pools are still tournament. they are part of the tournament regardless
iv also been working with the bbr to think of some ways to reward people further for pool play

 

[Keitaro]

What's funny is we had a discussion about a mm for the PA rankings last season where some panelists were skeptical on the truth behind it which led into over an hour of discussion.

I hate the idea of spectators. What if I'm at Eazy's place and we decide to $5 dollar mm? We can't do it cause no one else is watching?

I'm not trying to be a pain in the *** or anything but I do want stuff to get organized cause I see many holes in allowing mms for rankings and would at least like them to be fixed/answered before I'm in agreement with it.

 

[KayLo!]

And we figured out which ones were real and which weren't. That's one of the jobs of the panel..... dunno why it's suddenly too much of a burden.

Imo spectators should be necessary at least for mms within crews or between people known to be good friends. Possibly for all inner state mms. Because we've already seen that people do lie sometimes, lol.

But the possibility for dishonesty shouldn't be the entire reason for them not to count. -_- Or even a very significant one. Same type of **** happens in pools.

 

[Inui]

Nobody is going overboard.

Nobody is that blatantly corrupt over rankings.

Stop being paranoid and distrusting.

 

[CT Chia]

there have been multiple accounts of people not reporting losses and stufff, and even falsely reporting MMs in PA

 

[Inui]

there have been multiple accounts of people not reporting losses and stufff, and even falsely reporting MMs in PA

Then monitor everything better.

 

[Keitaro]

And we figured out which ones were real and which weren't. That's one of the jobs of the panel..... dunno why it's suddenly too much of a burden.

Imo spectators should be necessary at least for mms within crews or between people known to be good friends. Possibly for all inner state mms. Because we've already seen that people do lie sometimes, lol.

But the possibility for dishonesty shouldn't be the entire reason for them not to count. -_- Or even a very significant one. Same type of **** happens in pools.

That's another thing under question. Pools. I can understand pools counting at a tourney like Pound 4 where it wasn't easy to get out and most people played players that they didn't know personally.

But in a tourney where pools are used for seeding? Imo I see that as even worse than mms. I went Fox and Pokemon Trainer in pools at the tourney I won in Ohio. I think some of the sets are online too. I did win but I didn't care if I loss since it was only for seeding.

If its something like (top 3 players of a pool make it out) then its fine though.

Also when we figured out the mm situation it ended up being that Steph (I think it was him) mm Squall 10 times and won 1. What we originally heard was that Steph beat Squall in a mm. What if the losses weren't reported?? Then what? We would be like (**** Steph da besss).

You might say the trust factor but is there even a rule or standard that forces players to list all their lost mms? I'm very sure alot of players, maybe even half of the players, that report their mms don't even mention all the mms they lost.

Hell, if I mmed Dojo, Inui, and Spam and only won vs Spam you'll probably only hear about the one I won vs Spam from me and hear about the one I lost from Inui cause he'll gloat about it. The one I lost on Dojo will go unnoticed till I finally beat him during the 8th mm we have and have that one win count or rankings.

Then monitor everything better.

How?

 

[Inui]

Hell, if I mmed Dojo, Inui, and Spam and only won vs Spam you'll probably only hear about the one I won vs Spam from me and hear about the one I lost from Inui cause he'll gloat about it. The one I lost on Dojo will go unnoticed till I finally beat him during the 8th mm we have and have that one win count or rankings.

Tournament

Defeated:
MechWarrior
Fury
Xionix
Kimchi
Knightmare
Will
Kirin
Jash

Lost to:

Jband
Orion x 3


Money Matches

Defeated:
Delta-cod
Cross
Gunblade
BigM
Kai x 3
Fury

Lost to:
Delta-cod
Orion
Fury


Just keep track of losses like I am. It's that simple.

How?

Witnesses.

 

[dextasmurf]

there is nothing wrong with mmz the hardest thing is figuring out how much they are worth which is wut the panel is for.

@Chibo thats y we said a panalist has to be there to monitor the mmz and we sniffed out the liars.....and i agree that inner crew mmz shouldnt count even if a panalist is present

@keitaro a panalist would of had to see all of ur matches

 

[FuRyOf1000SuNs]

Tournament

Defeated:
MechWarrior
Fury
Xionix
Kimchi
Knightmare
Will
Kirin
Jash

Lost to:

Jband
Orion x 3


Money Matches

Defeated:
Delta-cod
Cross
Gunblade
BigM
Kai x 3

Lost to:
Delta-cod
Orion
Fury


Just keep track of losses like I am. It's that simple.



Witnesses.

Fixed for accuracy. That second MM win didn't count remember? I was in the middle of Brawl - and only played you cuz you were whining so much for a rematch so we made the agreement that because I wasn't going to be taking it seriously, it wasn't for rankings. Please let everyone who reads this know that that was the agreed upon disclaimer as to why we even did that second MM. Also, I have Kai as my witness. And we shook on it so please edit that win over me in the MM. Thanks buddy

 

[Inui]

I don't recall you saying you wouldn't take it seriously, but okay.

How about we up the stakes to $10 or more against my Snake? You know, since I can't win when you're serious and only twostock you and 2-0 you when you're joking around, like in tournament and the second MM.

 

[FuRyOf1000SuNs]

lol okkk, tourney I took seriously, that second MM, you know I didn't want to do but since I don't care about the money, I agreed to it under that disclaimer which I know you remember because I made it very clear lol,, but yea man I'll agree to that $10 MM

And come on man, I was in the middle of brawl -

 

[dextasmurf]

I don't recall you saying you wouldn't take it seriously, but okay.

How about we up the stakes to $10 or more against my Snake? You know, since I can't win when you're serious and only twostock you and 2-0 you when you're joking around, like in tournament and the second MM.

pleaseeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee lemmie mm ur snake pleaseeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee

 

[Keitaro]

there is nothing wrong with mmz the hardest thing is figuring out how much they are worth which is wut the panel is for.

@Chibo thats y we said a panalist has to be there to monitor the mmz and we sniffed out the liars.....and i agree that inner crew mmz shouldnt count even if a panalist is present

@keitaro a panalist would of had to see all of ur matches

Aight that's reasonable then.

Witnesses.

You can't just have any witnesses. If I said I said Seph and I were 1-1 in mms and Eazy and Xio are my witnesses that would be broken imo.

I could easily laugh and tell them to agree with me if someone asks since they are my crew members and all 3 of those people could easily agree for Seph and myself and tell them to keep it a secret.

I keep bringing up these types of situations cause there's a good chance it could happen. At least with a panelists watching it'll decrease the chances significantly.

And just to make it clear, I'm usually say I'm not for mms for rankings because of the way it can be abused because of its unlimitness and because of randomly trusting a player or players. Both these situations are solved in tournament sets easily.

And with these problems fixed I wouldn't mind them counting. But if they are not, I'm am against mms for rankings.

 

[FuRyOf1000SuNs]

even if everyone are against mms for rankings, that shouldn't mean that you can just eliminate them for this season since it already started.. fix this season's arguments and problems for next season.. This is the same reason why MLG won't change or ban anything midseason if some new tactic came out that broke the game, because it doesn't look good on the organization and ppl would have gotten so pissed at them

 

[KayLo!]

@Keitaro: So basically you think the Smash community is a bunch of liars, lol.

If mms aren't gonna count for very much (compared to tourney wins), combined with the low chance of people lying about mm wins and getting away with any signficant ones, I don't think there's a case for having them not count period.

You're banking on people cheating the system and getting away with it when I don't think anybody has yet (at least not that I've seen recently). The few people who've been dishonest got caught, and those wins were never counted.

 

[Inui]

lol okkk, tourney I took seriously, that second MM, you know I didn't want to do but since I don't care about the money, I agreed to it under that disclaimer which I know you remember because I made it very clear lol,, but yea man I'll agree to that $10 MM

And come on man, I was in the middle of brawl -

Okay.

pleaseeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee lemmie mm ur snake pleaseeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee

Okay.

@Keitaro: So basically you think the Smash community is a bunch of liars, lol.

If mms aren't gonna count for very much (compared to tourney wins), combined with the low chance of people lying about mm wins and getting away with any signficant ones, I don't think there's a case for having them not count period.

You're banking on people cheating the system and getting away with it when I don't think anybody has yet (at least not that I've seen recently). The few people who've been dishonest got caught, and those wins were never counted.

That's my take on it.

He and Doom keep talking about all these hypothetical situations in which players lie and cheat. No players do that.

 

[CT Chia]

Was a panelist present that saw the 2nd mm and heard that it wasn't for rankings?

@Keitaro - Pools are tournament. People should assume then that they count for rankings. They are a part of the tournament. I don't see what's so hard for people to realize about this. If people want more results, then there you go, pools give you 3-5 more sets for results. If you want to play people with Pokemon Trainer, do it in friendly or MM. The pools effect your tournament play as it changes your seeding. Also if we determine that some pools are legit and some arent, that introduces a whole new problem with which do count and which don't, and if people claim they didn't try in pools we determined were important, etc. Tournament is tournament, why can't people play to the best of their ability. If people want to claim that people don't try because they won't be out yet, then why don't people mess around in winners bracket in the same way? Also, if we get states to take pools seriously (is it so hard to ask?) then we can stop people forging pools results to keep em legit.

 

[KayLo!]

So we can try to force people to take pools seriously and not lie about them, but we're just gonna axe mms altogether because people may lie about them.

Lol. That logic seems a little funky to me.

 

[CT Chia]

If inner crew MMs shouldn't count, then inner state/area might as well not either. So I can't MM Smurf for rankings but I can MM Xzax? I've played Xzax even more than Smurf lol.

 

[CT Chia]

So we can try to force people to take pools seriously and not lie about them, but we're just gonna axe mms altogether because people lie about them.

Lol. That logic seems a little funky to me.

You know theres been tons of problems with people not reporting MMs (Kingtoon), people fudging MM results (not naming people), etc etc. Tournaments have solid proof results in results threads and brackets. This way also if we restrict everything to tournament, we don't have to worry about weighing certain things (which makes no sense because you can't put a numerical value on a non numerical value) as if it's all just tournament, then its all the same.

 

[Inui]

I don't see what's hard about making sets for money count. Both tournament and MM sets involve money.

If you're going to control the amount of an MM, then you should base tournament wins on the size of the pot by that same logic.

 

[KayLo!]

You know theres been tons of problems with people not reporting MMs (Kingtoon), people fudging MM results (not naming people), etc etc. Tournaments have solid proof results in results threads and brackets. This way also if we restrict everything to tournament, we don't have to worry about weighing certain things (which makes no sense because you can't put a numerical value on a non numerical value) as if it's all just tournament, then its all the same.

That's one of the reasons why mms should count less. You don't have to put a solid number on it, but if two people are close in tourney, mms can sway it one way or another. Like I said before: we're humans, not robots. We can understand the concept of something counting less than another without needing a concrete ratio.

But cutting them out altogether is really dumb imo. It's still for money.

& you know good and **** well people don't take pools at small tournies seriously. Especially when some people (*cough*) are guaranteed to make it out regardless. Saying "but it's for seeding!" doesn't change the fact that people sandbag and bull**** in pools all the time.

(I'm undecided on whether small tourney pools should count btw, but I think they can be less legit than mms sometimes tbqh. -_-)

 

[dextasmurf]

@CHIBO
ex..SQuall knows he's gonna be first in PA....Kingtoon ask for a win (not sayin this is wut happend just best for the example)...Squall gives it to him because he knows that it wont hurt him in anyway possible...Would squall do the same for a member in KC highly doubt it...thats y inner crews shouldnt count but inner state mmz should

@KEITARO if u and easy wanna mm without a panalist there no one is stoping you lol just wont count for rankingzzz just for bragging and money rights

@KAYLO small pools where everyone is gauranteed out shouldnt count that much compared to mmz since everyone gets out people dont care once they get top 3 no one fights for 1st

 

[Inui]

I could have Atomsk give me free MM wins, but I won't.

People just need to have honor and not manipulate rankings.

 

[FuRyOf1000SuNs]

Have HONOR people. The great Inui has spoken.







(I just read "Hero of our time" lol)