~Twitch~
Smash Master
the panel is three people? >_>
-
Welcome to Smashboards, the world's largest Super Smash Brothers community! Over 250,000 Smash Bros. fans from around the world have come to discuss these great games in over 19 million posts!
You are currently viewing our boards as a visitor. Click here to sign up right now and start on your path in the Smash community!
The North Carolina Melee Power Rankings - February 11th, 2010
- Thread starter Foxy
- Start date
- Status
null55
Smash Master
- Joined
- Apr 26, 2008
- Messages
- 3,500
Mike lol i never said i was in charge of anything. i'm just the only person who's willing to say something about it. cuz i think the panel ain't that great, again... no offense intended. i'm just being honest.
the unfortunate thing is, the people probably wouldn't vote for DJ.
who i think is more qualified than anyone who is currently on the panel tbh.
he's intelligent (not to say that you guys aren't), but he's also methodical and loves data (i.e. WILL ACTUALLY LOOK IT THE **** UP AND WON'T LIE or some ****)....
people always give him a bad rap and don't really want him to like succeed or anything, but i think the guy is more than worthy of the position.
and i'm not going to pretend like i don't want to be on them either. yeah, yeah, say what you gotta say about all this controversy and my intentions, but if i don't get voted, i'll be perfectly fine with that, no questions asked. but i have faith NC will make the right choice, and that means even if i'm not a part of the right choice.
i know a lot of you are probably going to disagree with this, and that's understandable, but understand that my intention in starting all of this is not to get on the panel. i want to be on it, but it's far more important to be that the panel be CHOSEN by the PEOPLE.
... but Twitch, honestly, here's my ideal panel i've had in my mind for a while now:
me, DJ, and you.
the unfortunate thing is, the people probably wouldn't vote for DJ.
who i think is more qualified than anyone who is currently on the panel tbh.
he's intelligent (not to say that you guys aren't), but he's also methodical and loves data (i.e. WILL ACTUALLY LOOK IT THE **** UP AND WON'T LIE or some ****)....
people always give him a bad rap and don't really want him to like succeed or anything, but i think the guy is more than worthy of the position.
and i'm not going to pretend like i don't want to be on them either. yeah, yeah, say what you gotta say about all this controversy and my intentions, but if i don't get voted, i'll be perfectly fine with that, no questions asked. but i have faith NC will make the right choice, and that means even if i'm not a part of the right choice.
i know a lot of you are probably going to disagree with this, and that's understandable, but understand that my intention in starting all of this is not to get on the panel. i want to be on it, but it's far more important to be that the panel be CHOSEN by the PEOPLE.
... but Twitch, honestly, here's my ideal panel i've had in my mind for a while now:
me, DJ, and you.
stingers
Smash Obsessed
why do you need more then 3 people?
ideally you should have TOs or Prominent players from west, central, and east nc represented in the panel, but the state as a whole is so focused in central NC it doesnt really matter.
ideally you should have TOs or Prominent players from west, central, and east nc represented in the panel, but the state as a whole is so focused in central NC it doesnt really matter.
$mike
Smash Ace
Cam, you never said anything to this:
and lol, nobody thinks we're great at anything. Do you know why? Because people are always going to disagree with power rankings, no matter what state you're in.
~Twitch~
Smash Master
me??? i have no right at all to be on the panel! i'm a almost 14 year old kid who happens to have a knack for melee. just because i'm related to kevin does not make me smart (if that was your reasoning). also...i don't talk much. there's a good chance i won't put much input as to who should be on the PRs. i'm flattered that you would recommend me though.
edit: oh yeah, and i also have a passion of hating brawl. which also goes into my immaturity thing.
mr.fizwidget
Smash Champion
i commend the maturity of this discussion so far...
vZakat
Half Genie
What we need is a mission statement. That would clear up the purpose of our PR and prevent a lot of this quarreling.
$mike
Smash Ace
btw
I'm not saying we (the panel) are perfect, because we're definitely not. But... there will always be "flaws" of power rankings, which I've been trying to say over and over again. I would make votes for who I think should be on the panel (because I also think the panel should be different), but this whole situation is kinda senseless and childish.
I'm not saying we (the panel) are perfect, because we're definitely not. But... there will always be "flaws" of power rankings, which I've been trying to say over and over again. I would make votes for who I think should be on the panel (because I also think the panel should be different), but this whole situation is kinda senseless and childish.
null55
Smash Master
- Joined
- Apr 26, 2008
- Messages
- 3,500
Mike- that previous post isn't a good argument. please read more for why, as i continue to repeat myself again. you're validation of PP is fine as the leader of the last panel, i'm cool with that. but as far as elevating his opinion so that it holds perennially even after he's gone? sir, that's where one says "Please.."
because that's just silly. read more for why:
lol as much as i love your scaturchio back talk, you can't really deny the incompetence shown with this last list... i don't have a problem with the panel for any other reason than that i just don't think you guys really give a ****, or you want to keep from disclosing information so you can keep your current position. read the past few pages...
like Dorsey said, when there's no system, there's going to be opinion problems, that's w/e. this list was so controversial because not even all the info for it was included, that's troubling.
but again, this isn't even my main point. i just think we should vote because PP left. because his opinion, imo, was wrong. i blame the republican party.
first and foremost, however, that's for NC to decide. at least... that's how it should be.
because that's just silly. read more for why:
lol as much as i love your scaturchio back talk, you can't really deny the incompetence shown with this last list... i don't have a problem with the panel for any other reason than that i just don't think you guys really give a ****, or you want to keep from disclosing information so you can keep your current position. read the past few pages...
like Dorsey said, when there's no system, there's going to be opinion problems, that's w/e. this list was so controversial because not even all the info for it was included, that's troubling.
but again, this isn't even my main point. i just think we should vote because PP left. because his opinion, imo, was wrong. i blame the republican party.
first and foremost, however, that's for NC to decide. at least... that's how it should be.
$mike
Smash Ace
the main thing I'm saying is realistic - how do you (or anyone else that agrees with you) intend on "overthrowing" the current prs if Foxy doesn't agree?
i don't even know what you're referring to when you say i'm elevating pp's opinion
and i do deny the incompetence of this last list. i know our work to compile this last list was legit. everyone has their own opinion and will ruthlessly throw sh*t at that for as long as prs exist.
and for the record here i do agree that the panel should be voted on, that is of course unless the votes are put on people who are clearly not able to do the panelist job well
i don't even know what you're referring to when you say i'm elevating pp's opinion
and i do deny the incompetence of this last list. i know our work to compile this last list was legit. everyone has their own opinion and will ruthlessly throw sh*t at that for as long as prs exist.
and for the record here i do agree that the panel should be voted on, that is of course unless the votes are put on people who are clearly not able to do the panelist job well
null55
Smash Master
- Joined
- Apr 26, 2008
- Messages
- 3,500
idk how you can, Mike. i've presented enough evidence to show that you guys do not do this thoroughly enough. you have plenty of ****in time. there shouldn't be 'mistakes' like that. and i'm not talking about mistakes in opinion (i.e. the order AFTER gathering all the data), i'm talking about mistakes in fact (the data itself).
and to the first part, if the majority of NCers vote on voting for a new panel, Foxy's opinion is meaningless. therefore, Foxy's opinion is meaningless anyway because it depends on everyone elses lol.
i can't respond to this stuff anymore cause i gotta go do **** instead of further gettin in to this SWF stuff.
i've made my points, but again, the PRIMARY one is that i believe the current panel should be wiped out of existence and NC should actually vote for its panel. even if the panel ends up being the same, that's fine, as long as it was based off of everyone's opinions for who they think will serve best. that's what matters.
please consider this.
EDIT: at Chris and whoever else didn't read right... THE MAIN THING IS THAT NC VOTES FOR ITS PANEL.
even if this list is ****ed up, not even everyone may agree with that (although they should if they read the previous pages in this thread), the idea is that PP is gone, so we all should have a say in who gets to be on the panel.
and to the first part, if the majority of NCers vote on voting for a new panel, Foxy's opinion is meaningless. therefore, Foxy's opinion is meaningless anyway because it depends on everyone elses lol.
i can't respond to this stuff anymore cause i gotta go do **** instead of further gettin in to this SWF stuff.
i've made my points, but again, the PRIMARY one is that i believe the current panel should be wiped out of existence and NC should actually vote for its panel. even if the panel ends up being the same, that's fine, as long as it was based off of everyone's opinions for who they think will serve best. that's what matters.
please consider this.
EDIT: at Chris and whoever else didn't read right... THE MAIN THING IS THAT NC VOTES FOR ITS PANEL.
even if this list is ****ed up, not even everyone may agree with that (although they should if they read the previous pages in this thread), the idea is that PP is gone, so we all should have a say in who gets to be on the panel.
Bl@ckChris
Smash Hero
well...after duke, there should be a new list, right? so can't we wait till after then to get a new panel if they mess this one up too?
and do we ever really use the PRs anymore? i know i'm not in charge of making brackets or anything, but does DJ really go by the PRs to help make those brackets, or does he just use common sense of "pp and L0zr/mike have a bye, other PR players play someone...not PRd".
since, at least at like all the ones i've been to, half the attendance is PR and the other half isn't, it doesn't seem like that big a deal. but i guess the NCSU's get better turnout...
idk. i was just thinking why change now, when we're like a week away from the next update...
edit: i think the people on the panel care enough...and are unbiased and stuff. some of their logic may be a little wonky, but to me, its just the difference between Crystalnite playing me first round, or Cam playing me first round. or at least thats how i see it anyway...
*is such a scrub*
and do we ever really use the PRs anymore? i know i'm not in charge of making brackets or anything, but does DJ really go by the PRs to help make those brackets, or does he just use common sense of "pp and L0zr/mike have a bye, other PR players play someone...not PRd".
since, at least at like all the ones i've been to, half the attendance is PR and the other half isn't, it doesn't seem like that big a deal. but i guess the NCSU's get better turnout...
idk. i was just thinking why change now, when we're like a week away from the next update...
edit: i think the people on the panel care enough...and are unbiased and stuff. some of their logic may be a little wonky, but to me, its just the difference between Crystalnite playing me first round, or Cam playing me first round. or at least thats how i see it anyway...
*is such a scrub*
~Twitch~
Smash Master
i try to not get contaminated by the worse people on the boards...i guess it payed off. i still don't go for the idea of me being on the panel. that leads to people arguing with me about where they are on the PRs and i have never really argued before in my life.
edit: oh yeah, and i type too slow. lol
edit: oh yeah, and i type too slow.
lol
$mike
Smash Ace
well i'm sorry foxy left a vital piece of information out. if karn was there, he should have raised an objection to the list when he looked over it. i trusted that foxy would know what happened since he was there, so sorry if i didn't do my ultimate job as a panelist to be sure of the entire bracket and results of a tourney i didn't go to (and that another panelist was at)
..... obviously. getting a little ahead of yourself here, when little have even agreed with you besides me and dj. this whole thing is just kind of iffy, but it deserves a chance
Diatenshi
Smash Lord
who not just assign points based on placement
1st place 10 points
2nd place 9 points
so on so forth
after 5 events average the points and they should be in some discerning order
throw out all tournaments with <16 players and <8 of the top players in NC ( top players being anyone thats in contention for a top 10 spot )
that should help clear it up a bit i suppose, with it mathmatically ranked, theres no arguing ( like reason would stop anyone... )
and by throwing out small tournys it'll help not skew the rankings for those who have been busy and missed tournaments
i have no clue how its done now but i guess by reading its by a general poll or something of that nature
1st place 10 points
2nd place 9 points
so on so forth
after 5 events average the points and they should be in some discerning order
throw out all tournaments with <16 players and <8 of the top players in NC ( top players being anyone thats in contention for a top 10 spot )
that should help clear it up a bit i suppose, with it mathmatically ranked, theres no arguing ( like reason would stop anyone... )
and by throwing out small tournys it'll help not skew the rankings for those who have been busy and missed tournaments
i have no clue how its done now but i guess by reading its by a general poll or something of that nature
~Twitch~
Smash Master
that wouldn't work because not everyone can make every tourney, in fact, that never happens.
Diatenshi
Smash Lord
thats why you average the results and throw out smaller tournamets
lets say PP attends 3 out of 5 tournamets
he wins all 3
average points for each tourny is 10
say L0ZR attends 5 out of 5
wins the 2 pp doesnt attend, 2nd in the other 3
10*2 + 9*3 / 5 = 9.4 points ( i did it in my head, close enough )
so by that system even though PP missed tournys, he's still 1st
of course it gets skewed farther down the list but if the numbers are within ~.25 just say they tie for position on the PR
lets say PP attends 3 out of 5 tournamets
he wins all 3
average points for each tourny is 10
say L0ZR attends 5 out of 5
wins the 2 pp doesnt attend, 2nd in the other 3
10*2 + 9*3 / 5 = 9.4 points ( i did it in my head, close enough )
so by that system even though PP missed tournys, he's still 1st
of course it gets skewed farther down the list but if the numbers are within ~.25 just say they tie for position on the PR
~Twitch~
Smash Master
i'm sure there's some reason this wouldn't work but i'm just not smart enough to see it. for some reason doing it mathematically is never the right way.
Diatenshi
Smash Lord
no its probably not, but its not a bad idea either, and this way all u need is the tournaments and players in a big excel sheet and they just get updated so easy peasy
the way this will get screwed if say for 8th place theres like 7 different people within .25 or whatever other arbitrary #
better yet... dont rank them by 1st, or 2nd or whatever just leave the # you calculated, so its more like an NC teir list (10 being best)
SK919
Deal with it
Best Panel, Karn, Mike, DJ, and Foxy.
Mike head of the panel... imo
Mike head of the panel... imo
Get the hell out of here.
No one wants to follow the regulations that's been here since '06 and have an expiration date of 11-29-2012. Why start now?
}:I
~Twitch~
Smash Master
why are there set rules to making a PR list? why can't we make them how we want to?
DtJ SmithZzz
Happy Birthday Kjell
There's just to many flaws in that system.
I do agree with a voting system, because I also think Dj should be on, because he cares, he buys his own set ups and Gamecubes for us. I'm not going to go on and on with this because I think Cam is right on most of the things he's saying.
EDIT: Isn't Foxy sick, too? He doesn't have time for this...
I do agree with a voting system, because I also think Dj should be on, because he cares, he buys his own set ups and Gamecubes for us. I'm not going to go on and on with this because I think Cam is right on most of the things he's saying.
EDIT: Isn't Foxy sick, too? He doesn't have time for this...
~Twitch~
Smash Master
DJ would try to put me below him. not even joking.
Diatenshi
Smash Lord
well, i tried
~Twitch~
Smash Master
well at this point, probably, because i literally haven't been to any tourneys in this period.
stingers
Smash Obsessed
brawl prs have a mission statement, zio
^.~
^.~
-ACE-
Gotem City Vigilante
Best Panelists imo would be Karn, DJ, and l0zR.
honorable mentions: Stongers, Cam
honorable mentions: Stongers, Cam
DJRome
Smash Hero
im just going to say that there are various reasons for the last prs being completely wack where any decision needed to be made.
mike: doesn't go to tournaments. and doesn't care enough to gather data
karn: doesn't care enough to gather data
foxy: presents partial data
in all honesty, im pretty much the least biased person i can think of for the panel. plus, i pretty much remember every relevant set for prs.
ive already been contemplating using my own prs in my head of what i think is right as seeding. so as a to, i think paneling would be a natural extension of that. but anyways, i would honestly rather just stick to myself for the prs if i pretty much don't get to make the prs as i see fit anyways.
im not big on compromise so if im not on the panel and the prs conflict with what i think, i will just use my own list.
mike: doesn't go to tournaments. and doesn't care enough to gather data
karn: doesn't care enough to gather data
foxy: presents partial data
in all honesty, im pretty much the least biased person i can think of for the panel. plus, i pretty much remember every relevant set for prs.
ive already been contemplating using my own prs in my head of what i think is right as seeding. so as a to, i think paneling would be a natural extension of that. but anyways, i would honestly rather just stick to myself for the prs if i pretty much don't get to make the prs as i see fit anyways.
im not big on compromise so if im not on the panel and the prs conflict with what i think, i will just use my own list.
stingers
Smash Obsessed
lozr? i see why you'd say him but he's hardly ever online these days =/
honest list:
dj, foxy, karn
honest list:
dj, foxy, karn
DJRome
Smash Hero
m@, i have spent a lot of hours trying to make a mathematical model. but it's pretty near impossible.
i ran about simulations using data from 8 tournaments using about 50 different combinations of parameters in matlab, and the number crunch just isn't consistent enough to account for things that are more easily approached logically. and defining rules would likely require more coding that i cared to try.
quite simply, a mathematical model can get close, but just looking at the data for 10 minutes would get you better results.
i ran about simulations using data from 8 tournaments using about 50 different combinations of parameters in matlab, and the number crunch just isn't consistent enough to account for things that are more easily approached logically. and defining rules would likely require more coding that i cared to try.
quite simply, a mathematical model can get close, but just looking at the data for 10 minutes would get you better results.
-ACE-
Gotem City Vigilante
I know he doesn't really care that much about pr's nowadays, but he'd be a good panelist imo. So would Yeroc if he was still active in the scene.
~Twitch~
Smash Master
why do you guys want foxy so much? from what i can tell: he doesn't go to much stuff/ get on boards anymore and he focuses more on brawl nowadays than melee.
Diatenshi
Smash Lord
yea its pretty hard to compensate for people getting bracket ****ed and all that
not to mention obvious **** that models couldnt give you, like 4 stocks against people vs. a 1 stock elsewhere
GofG
Smash Champion
I'd vote theo onto the panel too.
DJRome
Smash Hero
i think that's a very good point. having spoken to karn about this, i think foxy pretty much presented karn the data and agreed with karn. from what i gathered so correct me if im wrong.
having karn and pp i felt was more than sufficient for the old pr. im not sure what mike contributes to the panel since most of karn's conceptions about prs is very logical and accurate. not to knock mike, but i simply do not know what he does.
in any case, the prs should really:
1. be a list to reflect tournament results, not skill. the same applies to most power rankings in sports, etc.
2. be a list for players to view a ranking of top players in that state. emphasis on #1 prefacing the list should be obvious and would avoid any confusion on the viewer's part on for what the prs stand.
3. follow a logical sequence that has a consistent rule for treatment of data. doesn't need to be explicit since the prs should always reflect the data similarly and any glaring flaw would still need to be consistent until such rules are redefined.
4. use the 3-5 tournament data as i suggested. or some variation that updates more often than the data includes.
5. some other minor things i guess
m@, the prs should not include stocks or games. simply the set result.
also, theo pretty much has to agree with me so he'd be redundant. js
having karn and pp i felt was more than sufficient for the old pr. im not sure what mike contributes to the panel since most of karn's conceptions about prs is very logical and accurate. not to knock mike, but i simply do not know what he does.
in any case, the prs should really:
1. be a list to reflect tournament results, not skill. the same applies to most power rankings in sports, etc.
2. be a list for players to view a ranking of top players in that state. emphasis on #1 prefacing the list should be obvious and would avoid any confusion on the viewer's part on for what the prs stand.
3. follow a logical sequence that has a consistent rule for treatment of data. doesn't need to be explicit since the prs should always reflect the data similarly and any glaring flaw would still need to be consistent until such rules are redefined.
4. use the 3-5 tournament data as i suggested. or some variation that updates more often than the data includes.
5. some other minor things i guess
m@, the prs should not include stocks or games. simply the set result.
also, theo pretty much has to agree with me so he'd be redundant. js
null55
Smash Master
- Joined
- Apr 26, 2008
- Messages
- 3,500
sorry to continue with my own bs, but the reason i like me, DJ, and Twitch so much is that any bias can easily be recognized and dispersed with. for some reason (i.e. sources) i feel like the same sort of filtration doesn't necessarily occur with certain people on the panel.
and don't say bias won't potentially exist because there's always a slight tendency for it to, since there are times where your own ego can cloud your judgement. DJ, please don't tell me you don't have an ego. lol
i balance DJ, DJ balances me, Twitch is too small to fit an ego in his body (lol) but we both support and balance him. plus i feel like we would all have pretty even conceptions, i doubt there'd be much compromise beyond just keeping each other in check.
i think the end result would be something DJ would have originally suggested. me and Twitch i feel like represent two camps of opinions that would question it. and if there's enough reason behind it, and i believe there will be, there won't be problems.
i'm honestly not that big on the responsibility, i just think i'm good for the job. since i don't really care about seeding to begin with lol.
but yeah, i'm just throwing my thoughts out there, i don't expect my ideal to end up being the panel. i also like the idea of Theo on a panel, as well as David (lol, like that'll happen). Stingers is a good choice as well, but i doubt he'd want to either.
and don't say bias won't potentially exist because there's always a slight tendency for it to, since there are times where your own ego can cloud your judgement. DJ, please don't tell me you don't have an ego. lol
i balance DJ, DJ balances me, Twitch is too small to fit an ego in his body (lol) but we both support and balance him. plus i feel like we would all have pretty even conceptions, i doubt there'd be much compromise beyond just keeping each other in check.
i think the end result would be something DJ would have originally suggested. me and Twitch i feel like represent two camps of opinions that would question it. and if there's enough reason behind it, and i believe there will be, there won't be problems.
i'm honestly not that big on the responsibility, i just think i'm good for the job. since i don't really care about seeding to begin with lol.
but yeah, i'm just throwing my thoughts out there, i don't expect my ideal to end up being the panel. i also like the idea of Theo on a panel, as well as David (lol, like that'll happen). Stingers is a good choice as well, but i doubt he'd want to either.
- Status