The Nintendo "Off My Chest" thread (BE CIVIL)

[fogbadge]

CallingWhat the hell happened to Toadsworth? For being established as Peach's head retainer in the main series, he doesn't seem to show up anymore outside of remakes and rereleases.

I know right

 

[Aligo]

Reminder that toadsworth is like one of the easiest spirit battles in smash ultimate. He ain't in the Mario movie either.

 

[Dinoman96]

Funny thing with Toadsworth is that he hasn't actually been in a mainline Mario title since 2006, since the original NSMB. It was really only spinoff stuff that was keeping him alive, and outside of remakes/re-releases even that's stopped.

 

[LiveStudioAudience]

Toadsworth's lack of appearances isn't entirely surprising. Sports spin-offs weren't going to put him in, mainline 3D Mario titles went for locations outside the Mushroom Kingdom, 2D Mario titles barely had stories, and the RPG titles either went off the beaten path for settings (SPM, M&L) or greatly de-emphasized distinct toads (Paper Mario titles beginning with Sticker Star).

 

[chocolatejr9]

My headcanon is that Toadsworth died of old age...

 

[Quillion]

Sports spin-offs weren't going to put him in

The Mario Baseball duology did.

mainline 3D Mario titles went for locations outside the Mushroom Kingdom

Yet in his debut, Toadsworth was traveling with Peach.

2D Mario titles barely had stories

Which didn't stop Toadsworth from being the Toad House operator in the first NSMB.

and the RPG titles either went off the beaten path for settings (SPM, M&L) or greatly de-emphasized distinct toads (Paper Mario titles beginning with Sticker Star).

He traveled with Peach again in TTYD and Superstar Saga.

I get what you're saying, but there's so much precedent to Toadsworth just being Peach's helpful retainer to both her and Mario that I can't really say that Nintendo can claim that they don't know what to do with him.

It's like if Impa disappeared after, what, Skyward Sword?

 

[LiveStudioAudience]

Part of it comes down to Nintendo just having an odd record with being interested in formerly prominent Mario adjacent characters depending on the series. Donkey Kong inexplicably disappeared from Mario Party for a long while, the Koopalings were in complete hibernation for a decade, and Daisy popping up in any spin-off (as mainline appearances are a pipe dream) comes down to a coin toss.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

I don't think Toadsworth is that popular.

Probably why he isn't around anymore. I mean, people aren't chomping at the bits to have him playable.

 

[LiveStudioAudience]

I guess that means in the eyes of some fans he's Toadsworthless.

 

[Quillion]

Part of it comes down to Nintendo just having an odd record with being interested in formerly prominent Mario adjacent characters depending on the series. Donkey Kong inexplicably disappeared from Mario Party for a long while, the Koopalings were in complete hibernation for a decade, and Daisy popping up in any spin-off (as mainline appearances are a pipe dream) comes down to a coin toss.

I don't think Toadsworth is that popular.

Probably why he isn't around anymore. I mean, people aren't chomping at the bits to have him playable.

Now that you both mention this, I'm worried Captain Toad will suffer the same fate.

At least him being a 3D game almost-regular for almost a decade reflects good on him, but the strange case of him having no spin-off presence doesn't bode well.

Oh well, what can the next important Toad character do before they fall off?

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Now that you both mention this, I'm worried Captain Toad will suffer the same fate.

At least him being a 3D game almost-regular for almost a decade reflects good on him, but the strange case of him having no spin-off presence doesn't bode well.

Oh well, what can the next important Toad character do before they fall off?

Be Toadette.

No really Toadette is an outlier.

 

[Quillion]

Be Toadette.

No really Toadette is an outlier.

I would say that they promoted a spin-off character to main series and they chose one of the less interesting and unique ones.

...but as much as I have some fondness for Mr. Spin-off Waluigi, one could say the same things about him in the hypothetical where he is chosen.

 

[Lenidem]

Toadworth was also the one driving the winners' car in Double Dash.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

Why there's no DX edition of Tetris Attack is beyond me. It could've offered up the following...

Spoiler

• Lip and Cordelia would be added as guest characters whom can be unlocked by completing VS. mode on Hard difficulty. Lip would be usable in Endless, Time Trial, and 2P mode, while Cordelia is exclusive to 2P mode.
• VS. mode would be adjusted so that there are 11 stages on Easy, 12 on Normal, and 13 on Hard. This would make Kamek the last stage on Easy, while Bowser is the last stage on Normal. As for the Hard difficulty, Cordelia would appear after Bowser's defeat, and serve as the true final challenge who brings back the high difficulty she offered in Panel de Pon. And to make things more interesting, the player is only allowed to use Yoshi in that very stage.
• The changes to VS. mode would also alter the Hard difficulty ending, where instead of Little Yoshi appearing, Cordelia would reappear in her true form, and introduce Yoshi and his allies to Lip. The Little Yoshi ending would be relegated down to the Normal difficulty ending as a consequence.

 

[RealLuigisWearPink]

Toadsworth is a character I mostly associate with the Gamecube/DS/GBA era, sort of similar to how the Pink Bob-Ombs were mostly a thing during the N64 era

 

[Laniv]

People often say that Toad is "unimportant" because he's "not an individual character", but he's far more of an individual than Yoshi is.

 

[Quillion]

People often say that Toad is "unimportant" because he's "not an individual character", but he's far more of an individual than Yoshi is.

In the spin-offs, Toad is an individual by virtue of being an important part of the cast there.

Not so much in the main series where almost any one of Peach's retainers are interchangeable (almost because Toadsworth).

So it's really just a divide of some paying more attention to the main series and others paying more attention to the spin-offs.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Funny thing with Toadsworth is that he hasn't actually been in a mainline Mario title since 2006, since the original NSMB. It was really only spinoff stuff that was keeping him alive, and outside of remakes/releases even that's stopped.

It sucks honestly, I liked Toadsworth.

 

[Quillion]

Now this isn't necessarily unique to Nintendo, but given several of their best-known series are (in) famous for it, I'll put this here.

I'm tired of their franchises like Mario, Zelda, and Kirby using the same level setting tropes over and over again. You always get a grassland or forest first, then water, desert, mountain, clouds, and ice in the middle, then the villain's dark lair at the end.

...but at the same time, I can't help but see it as a "necessary evil". As seen with vocal detractors of Breath of the Wild, when that game severely downplays the role the dungeon setting tropes play in the dungeons, they complain that the dungeons feel the same. Even games like Mario Odyssey and Kirby and the Forgotten Land ultimately rely on the usual setting tropes while just having one "unique" setting each (city and amusement park respectively).

Is this a problem that can be completely avoided, or should it just be accepted as a "you can't please everyone" issue?

 

[fogbadge]

Now this isn't necessarily unique to Nintendo, but given several of their best-known series are (in) famous for it, I'll put this here.

I'm tired of their franchises like Mario, Zelda, and Kirby using the same level setting tropes over and over again. You always get a grassland or forest first, then water, desert, mountain, clouds, and ice in the middle, then the villain's dark lair at the end.

...but at the same time, I can't help but see it as a "necessary evil". As seen with vocal detractors of Breath of the Wild, when that game severely downplays the role the dungeon setting tropes play in the dungeons, they complain that the dungeons feel the same. Even games like Mario Odyssey and Kirby and the Forgotten Land ultimately rely on the usual setting tropes while just having one "unique" setting each (city and amusement park respectively).

Is this a problem that can be completely avoided, or should it just be accepted as a "you can't please everyone" issue?

i wouldn't call city or fun fair unique, certainly not within those series. but i'm not sure how many truly unique level themes are left

 

[Aligo]

Now this isn't necessarily unique to Nintendo, but given several of their best-known series are (in) famous for it, I'll put this here.

I'm tired of their franchises like Mario, Zelda, and Kirby using the same level setting tropes over and over again. You always get a grassland or forest first, then water, desert, mountain, clouds, and ice in the middle, then the villain's dark lair at the end.

...but at the same time, I can't help but see it as a "necessary evil". As seen with vocal detractors of Breath of the Wild, when that game severely downplays the role the dungeon setting tropes play in the dungeons, they complain that the dungeons feel the same. Even games like Mario Odyssey and Kirby and the Forgotten Land ultimately rely on the usual setting tropes while just having one "unique" setting each (city and amusement park respectively).

Is this a problem that can be completely avoided, or should it just be accepted as a "you can't please everyone" issue?

I feel like the issue can be avoided with sufficient effort. A level with secondary themes will always beat one without.

Compare a mario snow level to say winter horns or tantal and you can tell the difference in quality; the mario snow level will get at most an igloo if you are lucky. Meanwhile Kirby's winter horns utilizes a bunch of settings, such as a frozen subway or a grand bridge, to really add to the setting. Tantal takes this further by both having good theming and combining it multiple zones, vertical level design and weather patterns to really bring the most out the atmosphere. See also phendrana drifts from metroid prime.

Even grasslands can be pretty rad if put a little bit of secondary theming in. The problems is that attempting to re-use theming without effort or care can destroy world building and suspension of disbelief, as continuity becomes important (see xenoblade 3 as a good example of this). Generic theming doesn't have this issue, so it is safer to re-use.

Actually I think that may be another reason why corporate prefers multiplayer games. It is easier to re-use multiplayer assets compared to singplayer ones.

Gosh that was a long post.

 

[Wario Wario Wario]

Mario Odyssey's most memorable locales are the ones that go into full-on absurdity. In a new Mario game, be it collectathon; linear; or 2D, I'd hope to see less "Snow Kingdoms" and "Beach Kingdoms", and more polygonal pastel food worlds and 70s solarpunk movie tributes. (not literally, just the same kind of creativity) - IMO SMO is probably the closest Nintendo has gotten to the sheer creativity and technology-pushing of Yoshi's Island, if not exceeding it.

 

[Aligo]

Mario Odyssey's most memorable locales are the ones that go into full-on absurdity. In a new Mario game, be it collectathon; linear; or 2D, I'd hope to see less "Snow Kingdoms" and "Beach Kingdoms", and more polygonal pastel food worlds and 70s solarpunk movie tributes. (not literally, just the same kind of creativity) - IMO SMO is probably the closest Nintendo has gotten to the sheer creativity and technology-pushing of Yoshi's Island.

Compared to the other examples I talked about SMO does pretty well but suffers from the 'Island problem'

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=VzYpNuWX4OM

This video by zoomzike does a pretty good job of explaining it

 

[LiveStudioAudience]

I think with Mario, Zelda, and Kirby there are some contrasts in how each one handles it.

Mario is the worst offender with the NSMB series and some 2D oriented 3D titles (3D Land & World). Those are games guilty of leaning into the typical Mario tropes way too much and the final result not really being visually interesting. This is in spite of the level design itself being solid across the board. The best of the 3D titles (Galaxy 1 & 2, Odyssey) managed to avoid this for the most part, and even Sunshine has a distinct identity even if it feels one note. If anything its elements from the more out there Mario role playing games that the mainline titles should crib from. SMRPG, Thousand Year Door, & even Super Paper Mario all play with various different themes away from what one would expect from the IP. Something like Bean Valley stands out 25 years later because few Mario titles have had anything quite like it again.

Zelda is a case where its very hit and miss depending on the game. The (over?) reliance on Forest, Fire/Lava, Water themes areas has made certain things a bit stagnant, but stuff like Majora's Mask is where real creativity can shine. A poisoned Swamp, a frozen cliff area, a warmed over ocean, and the bizarre surreal/dead nature of Ikana Canyon. That's where the series effective turns things on their head and makes individual releases stand out. Very often the games have that one dungeon that bucks the usual settings and is all the better for it; Shadow Temple in OoT, City in the Sky in TP, Ancient Cistern in SS and so on. Honestly as far as BotW, its core issues for me were the sheer lack in color/aesthetic variety with the shrines as well as the naturalistic landscape being a little boring after a while. Its why Lost Woods was a bit more intriguing because at least there's something a bit unnatural about it at first.

Kirby is the trickiest one to classify, both because its experimental era circa 2001-2010 meant that mainline games were essentially doing their own thing, and because outside Green Greens and Dedede's Castle, its hard to really recall what stock settings Kirby is supposed to have. Locations were certainly reused, but they tended to be pretty general to begin with or (with stuff like Triple Deluxe and especially Planet Robobot) they were more or less remixed to be pretty contrasting. The latter is an especially good example of how a strong cohereent theme can really liven up typically settings while still not being one note. The mechanization concept is all throughout that game, but it never feels like dominates like the tropical setting does in something like Sunshine. The return of more stock areas in Forgotten Land feels like a concession to being the pink puff's first real 3D outing. Future titles will likely mix it up a bit more because the actual mechanics have been figured out.

 

[Aligo]

I think with Mario, Zelda, and Kirby there are some contrasts in how each one handles it.

Mario is the worst offender with the NSMB series and some 2D oriented 3D titles (3D Land & World). Those are games guilty of leaning into the typical Mario tropes way too much and the final result not really being visually interesting. This is in spite of the level design itself being solid across the board. The best of the 3D titles (Galaxy 1 & 2, Odyssey) managed to avoid this for the most part, and even Sunshine has a distinct identity even if it feels one note. If anything its something of the more out there Mario role playing games that it should crib from. SMRPG, Thousand Year Door, & even Super Paper Mario all play with various different themes away from what one would expect from the IP. Something like Bean Valley stands out 25 years later because few Mario titles have had anything quite like it again.

Zelda is a case where its very hit and miss depending on the game. The (over?) reliance on Forest, Fire/Lava, Water themes areas has made certain things a bit stagnant, but stuff like Majora's Mask is where real creativity can shine. A poisoned Swamp, a frozen cliff area, a warmed over ocean, and the bizarre surreal/dead nature of Ikana Canyon. That's where the series effective turns things on their head and makes individual games stand out. Very often the games have that one dungeon that bucks the usual settings and is all the better for it; Shadow Temple in OoT, City in the Sky in TP, Ancient Cistern in SS and so on. Honestly BotW's core issues for me were the sheer lack in color aesthetic variety with the shrines as well as the naturalistic landscape being a little boring after a while. Its why Lost Woods is a bit more interesting because at least there's something a bit unnatural about it at first.

Kirby is the trickiest one to classify, both because its experimental era circa 2001-2010 meant that mainline games were essentially doing their own thing, and because outside Green Greens and Dedede's Castle, its hard to really recall what stock settings Kirby is supposed to have. Locations were certainly reused, but they tended to be pretty general to begin with or (with stuff like Triple Deluxe and especially Planet Robobot) they were more or less remixed to be pretty contrasting. The latter is an especially good example of how a strong cohereent theme can really liven up typically settings while still not being one note. The mechanization concept is all throughout that game, but it never feels like dominates like the tropical setting does in something like Sunshine. The return of more stock areas in Forgotten Land feels like a concession to being the pink puff's first real 3D outing. Future titles will likely mix it up a bit more because the actual mechanics have been figured out.

I think Botw was dragged down by hyrule field being a very large square of grass, and the shrines/beasts using that ugly dark beige/brown colour.

 

[Quillion]

I think with Mario, Zelda, and Kirby there are some contrasts in how each one handles it.

Mario is the worst offender with the NSMB series and some 2D oriented 3D titles (3D Land & World). Those are games guilty of leaning into the typical Mario tropes way too much and the final result not really being visually interesting. This is in spite of the level design itself being solid across the board. The best of the 3D titles (Galaxy 1 & 2, Odyssey) managed to avoid this for the most part, and even Sunshine has a distinct identity even if it feels one note. If anything its elements from the more out there Mario role playing games that the mainline titles should crib from. SMRPG, Thousand Year Door, & even Super Paper Mario all play with various different themes away from what one would expect from the IP. Something like Bean Valley stands out 25 years later because few Mario titles have had anything quite like it again.

Zelda is a case where its very hit and miss depending on the game. The (over?) reliance on Forest, Fire/Lava, Water themes areas has made certain things a bit stagnant, but stuff like Majora's Mask is where real creativity can shine. A poisoned Swamp, a frozen cliff area, a warmed over ocean, and the bizarre surreal/dead nature of Ikana Canyon. That's where the series effective turns things on their head and makes individual releases stand out. Very often the games have that one dungeon that bucks the usual settings and is all the better for it; Shadow Temple in OoT, City in the Sky in TP, Ancient Cistern in SS and so on. Honestly as far as BotW, its core issues for me were the sheer lack in color/aesthetic variety with the shrines as well as the naturalistic landscape being a little boring after a while. Its why Lost Woods was a bit more intriguing because at least there's something a bit unnatural about it at first.

Kirby is the trickiest one to classify, both because its experimental era circa 2001-2010 meant that mainline games were essentially doing their own thing, and because outside Green Greens and Dedede's Castle, its hard to really recall what stock settings Kirby is supposed to have. Locations were certainly reused, but they tended to be pretty general to begin with or (with stuff like Triple Deluxe and especially Planet Robobot) they were more or less remixed to be pretty contrasting. The latter is an especially good example of how a strong cohereent theme can really liven up typically settings while still not being one note. The mechanization concept is all throughout that game, but it never feels like dominates like the tropical setting does in something like Sunshine. The return of more stock areas in Forgotten Land feels like a concession to being the pink puff's first real 3D outing. Future titles will likely mix it up a bit more because the actual mechanics have been figured out.

You know, sometimes I think the line between "creative level theme" and "boring stock level trope" can be arbitrary.

On one hand, no one's going to confuse Luncheon Kingdom for being a rehash of Lethal Lava Land. At least the former stands out from other volcanic areas for its pink lava and being more cheerful than others as well as food-themed.

But apparently a grassland with fossils (Mario Odyssey) is more creative than a grassland with mountains and acorn trees (NSMBU). Even outside of Nintendo, Sonic Heroes' Seaside Hill and Ocean Palace (Green Hill with ruins) are considered better than Forces' desertified Green Hill somehow.

 

[Lenidem]

I'm tired of their franchises like Mario, Zelda, and Kirby using the same level setting tropes over and over again. You always get a grassland or forest first

The first "world" in SMO is actually the weird ghost hats area. The fact that we start there was a good sign for me: it intrigued me and inted that the creativity in this game would have nothing to do with the "New" serie. Also, I must admit that I would have been disappointed if there had been no grass-area at all.

 

[LiveStudioAudience]

You know, sometimes I think the line between "creative level theme" and "boring stock level trope" can be arbitrary.

On one hand, no one's going to confuse Luncheon Kingdom for being a rehash of Lethal Lava Land. At least the former stands out from other volcanic areas for its pink lava and being more cheerful than others as well as food-themed.

But apparently a grassland with fossils (Mario Odyssey) is more creative than a grassland with mountains and acorn trees (NSMBU). Even outside of Nintendo, Sonic Heroes' Seaside Hill and Ocean Palace (Green Hill with ruins) are considered better than Forces' desertified Green Hill somehow.

A lot of it comes down to how the level effectively comes together with the details. That stage in Sonic Forces doesn't feel like it does anything with its concept besides apply sand to Green Hill. There's not a lot of fun quirks or little spins on old ideas that makes it pop. Sonic Colors is actually a good contrast with what it does; Tropical Resort is the former's themes applied to a theme park, Planet Wisp is a grassland being taken over by construction, Aquarium Park is an underwater setting mixed with Feudal Japan. The basic Sonic tropes are there but with genuinely different applications.

Heck even Forces could have salvaged Green Hill had it gone with something closer to the concept art:

Its not just applying a different kind of element and calling it a day, its atmosphere, tone, the overall make up of the stage would have conveyed what the core idea of Forces was trying to do (Eggman taking over major settings) far better.

 

[Quillion]

The first "world" in SMO is actually the weird ghost hats area. The fact that we start there was a good sign for me: it intrigued me and inted that the creativity in this game would have nothing to do with the "New" serie. Also, I must admit that I would have been disappointed if there had been no grass-area at all.

Yes, but Bonneton is little more than a tutorial area. There isn't much you can do until after you get enough moons from Fossil Falls.

A lot of it comes down to how the level effectively comes together with the details. That stage in Sonic Forces doesn't feel like it does anything with its concept besides apply sand to Green Hill. There's not a lot of fun quirks or little spins on old ideas that makes it pop.

Yeah, but even that idea can be arbitrarily ignored.

BotW's Divine Beasts makes sure to do a lot with their water, volcanic, desert, and sky themes, using the relevant elements and taking advantage of the new physics engine. They even have a coherent theme like you say Kirby does in several games. And yet all of that is side-eyed for bashing them for looking the same.

 

[LiveStudioAudience]

Yes, but Bonneton is little more than a tutorial area. There isn't much you can do until after you get enough moons from Fossil Falls.



Yeah, but even that idea can be arbitrarily ignored.

BotW's Divine Beasts makes sure to do a lot with their water, volcanic, desert, and sky themes, using the relevant elements and taking advantage of the new physics engine. They even have a coherent theme like you say Kirby does in several games. And yet all of that is side-eyed for bashing them for looking the same.

I think for the Divine Beast boss battles, most I've seen do see them as distinct; its just that the dungeons themselves get the criticism. Part of that is rooted in the thematic aesthetics are generally more subtle than most examples in previous Zelda releases, and the other is that departure from having dungeon specific items used in them means that for some they do tend to blend together. Yes you get abilities after completing them, but there's no immediate association like using the bow for puzzles in the Forest Temple and hammer for the same in the Fire Temple.

Its another case of BotW not existing in a vacuum to many fans; in and of itself the Divine Beasts do individually stand out. Its just that compared with previous LoZ games, the nuances are far less overt, thus meaning the four of them tend to feel the same for some players.

 

[Aligo]

To throw my hat in the ring with this I think a big part of the issue is that the dungeon both lack unique enemies, something that older games had, and the blight Ganons are all below average as far as bosses go.

 

[Quillion]

I think for the Divine Beast boss battles, most I've seen do see them as distinct; its just that the dungeons themselves get the criticism. Part of that is rooted in the thematic aesthetics are generally more subtle than most examples in previous Zelda releases, and the other is that departure from having dungeon specific items used in them means that for some they do tend to blend together. Yes you get abilities after completing them, but there's no immediate association like using the bow for puzzles in the Forest Temple and hammer for the same in the Fire Temple.

Its another case of BotW not existing in a vacuum to many fans; in and of itself the Divine Beasts do individually stand out. Its just that compared with previous LoZ games, the nuances are far less overt, thus meaning the four of them tend to feel the same for some players.

The point about BotW moving away from dungeon-specific items actually brings me to another thought I have about Zelda:

Zelda games work better when they have less "tools".

I know it's common knowledge now that Twilight Princess and Skyward Sword get little use out of their "unique" items, but honestly, that's only because those items are obtained in the second half of the game; the first half items are used pretty decently. In fact, this problem exists as far back as Link's Awakening, where there really isn't much room left to use the Powerful Bracelet, Mirror Shield, and Magic Rod.

It's just an inevitability of game design; the items you get later in the game aren't going to see as much use as the early abilities.

That said, it did give me an idea for how another two-act Zelda game can be handled: just relegate all the puzzle-solver "tools" to the first act of the game, then make the second-act items things that don't solve puzzles and merely just upgrade Link's combat capabilities. This frees up room to make the "tools" versatile and synergistic while letting the second-act items be largely optional in their use while making Link feel better in combat.

 

[Troykv]

The point about BotW moving away from dungeon-specific items actually brings me to another thought I have about Zelda:

Zelda games work better when they have less "tools".

I know it's common knowledge now that Twilight Princess and Skyward Sword get little use out of their "unique" items, but honestly, that's only because those items are obtained in the second half of the game; the first half items are used pretty decently. In fact, this problem exists as far back as Link's Awakening, where there really isn't much room left to use the Powerful Bracelet, Mirror Shield, and Magic Rod.

It's just an inevitability of game design; the items you get later in the game aren't going to see as much use as the early abilities.

That said, it did give me an idea for how another two-act Zelda game can be handled: just relegate all the puzzle-solver "tools" to the first act of the game, then make the second-act items things that don't solve puzzles and merely just upgrade Link's combat capabilities. This frees up room to make the "tools" versatile and synergistic while letting the second-act items be largely optional in their use while making Link feel better in combat.

This actually reminds me how in some games, the new tools you get in the second half of the game are basically upgrapes to tools from the first half, like in Zelda 1 the Rod getting and upgrape via the Tome, the Grab Tool in Oracle of Ages being replaced by the Level 2 version. Even Twilight Princess has something like that (the Clawshot gets replaced for the Double Clawshot).

It makes sense to mostly give updates in the second half of the game besides getting access to some tool that having early on could be a bit too broken.

 

[Aligo]

Other examples include the longshot and now in ocarina of time.

 

[Quillion]

Other examples include the longshot and now in ocarina of time.

To be fair, the bow comes off more as a stand-in for the slingshot rather than an upgrade, given that one replaces the other in the past or future.

 

[LiveStudioAudience]

Link Between Worlds pulled this concept off really well; with enough Rupees you can rent and eventually buy tools and weapons, which allows the dungeon rewards to be essentially upgrades; thus allowing a sense of progression and a way for items to be useful from the beginning.

 

[Diddy Kong]

The point about BotW moving away from dungeon-specific items actually brings me to another thought I have about Zelda:

Zelda games work better when they have less "tools".

I know it's common knowledge now that Twilight Princess and Skyward Sword get little use out of their "unique" items, but honestly, that's only because those items are obtained in the second half of the game; the first half items are used pretty decently. In fact, this problem exists as far back as Link's Awakening, where there really isn't much room left to use the Powerful Bracelet, Mirror Shield, and Magic Rod.

It's just an inevitability of game design; the items you get later in the game aren't going to see as much use as the early abilities.

That said, it did give me an idea for how another two-act Zelda game can be handled: just relegate all the puzzle-solver "tools" to the first act of the game, then make the second-act items things that don't solve puzzles and merely just upgrade Link's combat capabilities. This frees up room to make the "tools" versatile and synergistic while letting the second-act items be largely optional in their use while making Link feel better in combat.

Strong takes. I agree with the latter part about splitting up the items in Zelda with puzzle solving items first half of the game, combat increasing items for the latter half. But most Zelda games kinda follow this approach anyway.

I also think BotW took it a bit too far. There's no huge sense of progression outside of clearing Shrines for more health / stamina, the Champion abilities and well, the weapons you collect from enemies. If it wasn't for the fact you spend much of the game exploring, it would be boring I'd say, combat is also very underwhelming in BotW for this reason.

 

[Quillion]

Strong takes. I agree with the latter part about splitting up the items in Zelda with puzzle solving items first half of the game, combat increasing items for the latter half. But most Zelda games kinda follow this approach anyway.

Do most Zelda games really follow that? I know the earliest Zelda games mixed puzzle-solver tools and combat items for their dungeon rewards, but most of the series up to BotW went exclusively for puzzle-solver tools as dungeon rewards if I recall.

 

[Oracle Link]

I would say that they promoted a spin-off character to main series and they chose one of the less interesting and unique ones.

...but as much as I have some fondness for Mr. Spin-off Waluigi, one could say the same things about him in the hypothetical where he is chosen.

The Reason why they picked her is probably beacuse they lacked a Female Playable Character Peach has her Issues she works Perfect in Spin offs but wasnt designed as a playable Character while the toads werent aswell they work much better in that Role! And Toadette is a female Toad so that worked out!

That or they just wanted to replace one of the two NSBM Toads!

 

[Quillion]

The Reason why they picked her is probably beacuse they lacked a Female Playable Character Peach has her Issues she works Perfect in Spin offs but wasnt designed as a playable Character while the toads werent aswell they work much better in that Role! And Toadette is a female Toad so that worked out!

That or they just wanted to replace one of the two NSBM Toads!

That doesn't make sense considering Mario and Luigi are the only two regular playable characters in the main series.