The Nintendo "Off My Chest" thread (BE CIVIL)

[LiveStudioAudience]

Genuine question what's the big appeal of Star Fox? As far as I can tell there's been one good game in the last 30 some years

The thing with Star Fox is that its a series that is filled with so much potential... that it so rarely lives up to (SF64 and the original somewhat excepted). Well designed characters, a potentially rich universe to experiment in, and a fairly distinct identity as a famous space shooter (and Nintendo's only one) make it a strong IP at its base. The problem is a lot of questionable decisions have muted the success the series could have otherwise. In general it has an innate ability to have really interesting elements that they either don't utilize to their potential or arbitrarily decide not to bring back.

"64's on rails exploration leading to different paths and thus different levels works so well for replayability, that clearly the next couple of games shouldn't have them."

"Hey the maps in Assault aren't the best for all range single player, the on foot segments are bit rough, and its too linear, but the multiplayer is universally praised, so we won't bring that back."

"Command's story is laughable, the RTS elements unnecessary, and the stylus controls are awkward, but being able to select your own ship is such a great concept that it should just stay in this game."

That's what makes the series still alluring and so frustrating, because the elements are there for it to be more, but it gets cut off a the knees so much. Nintendo (and many would say Miyamoto) seem ashamed at actually making a space shooter without a funny hat on it, hence experiences that drive the audience away and/or don't bring new fans in. There's a fantastic hypothetical Star Fox game taking the best elements from the SNES games, 64, Assault, Command, Zero, & the SF elements from Starlink, and the promise of that is what keeps a lot of fans interested. That and the memorable cast have gone a long way of keeping the franchise on life support.

 

[Demon Dragon]

Generation 8 was by far the worst generation of Pokemon, barring Legends Arceus and New Pokemon Snap.

 

[Quillion]

Kirby Star Allies and Forgotten Land feel like two separated halves of a great Kirby game. Star Allies has the best ability mechanics in the series plus a great selection, but Forgotten Land has the bold new dimension and great level design.

I really hope the next original Kirby game doesn't make me have to choose between great combat or great level design.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Since Star Fox was mentioned: Star Fox Adventures was an amazing game.

 

[fogbadge]

Since Star Fox was mentioned: Star Fox Adventures was an amazing game.

seconded

 

[Aligo]

I never managed to finish the game, I kept getting lost. Had cool explosion effects at the time though. And dinosaurs. Can't forget the dinosaurs.

 

[Lenidem]

Since Star Fox was mentioned: Star Fox Adventures was an amazing game.

Meh. Its graphics were beautiful, but apart from that, it was only okay.

 

[chocolatejr9]

M

Meh. Its graphics were beautiful, but apart from that, it was only okay.

remembers this is the game that introduced Krystal

Right... graphics...

 

[Lenidem]

remembers this is the game that introduced Krystal

Right... graphics...

Krystal is cool, I totally agree. But she couldn't save the game from being boring.

 

[chocolatejr9]

Krystal is cool, I totally agree. But she couldn't save the game from being boring.

Actually, I was trying to make a joke about her design in that game. But I'm not funny...

 

[Troykv]

The thing with Star Fox is that its a series that is filled with so much potential... that it so rarely lives up to (SF64 and the original somewhat excepted). Well designed characters, a potentially rich universe to experiment in, and a fairly distinct identity as a famous space shooter (and Nintendo's only one) make it a strong IP at its base. The problem is a lot of questionable decisions have muted the success the series could have otherwise. In general it has an innate ability to have really interesting elements that they either don't utilize to their potential or arbitrarily decide not to bring back.

"64's on rails exploration leading to different paths and thus different levels works so well for replayability, that clearly the next couple of games shouldn't have them."

"Hey the maps in Assault aren't the best for all range single player, the on foot segments are bit rough, and its too linear, but the multiplayer is universally praised, so we won't bring that back."

"Command's story is laughable, the RTS elements unnecessary, and the stylus controls are awkward, but being able to select your own ship is such a great concept that it should just stay in this game."

That's what makes the series still alluring and so frustrating, because the elements are there for it to be more, but it gets cut off a the knees so much. Nintendo (and many would say Miyamoto) seem ashamed at actually making a space shooter without a funny hat on it, hence experiences that drive the audience away and/or don't bring new fans in. There's a fantastic hypothetical Star Fox game taking the best elements from the SNES games, 64, Assault, Command, Zero, & the SF elements from Starlink, and the promise of that is what keeps a lot of fans interested. That and the memorable cast have gone a long way of keeping the franchise on life support.

I guess that is a consequence of being a Shooter made by main Nintendo, they don't want to create the same again unless is explicitily a remake, they want to give each game an identity, but they fail so hard at creating great games for focusing too much in that gimmick to the detriment of everything else.

Kirby Star Allies and Forgotten Land feel like two separated halves of a great Kirby game. Star Allies has the best ability mechanics in the series plus a great selection, but Forgotten Land has the bold new dimension and great level design.

I really hope the next original Kirby game doesn't make me have to choose between great combat or great level design.

I imagine the simplicity of the ability design was something of a compromise in order to maintain the controls intuitive, considering the inputs needed to move take more space now, using down and up in a D-Pad/Stick aren't longer options to support skill sets.

Though, as we can see with the game's definite ability, HAL is actually experimenting with how giving the abilities more attacks in a 3D context.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Well, Star Fox Adventures just holds a sort of special place in my heart for being the last Rare console game on Nintendo, and it had a rough development cycle changing it's whole identity as a original game Dinosaur Planet and becoming Star Fox. Think part of the reason was Nintendo felt Rare neglected working on Nintendo IPs as Donkey Kong, and where just looking to establish their own brands ever since Banjo Kazooie. At least that's my take on it. The game was beautifully looking, had amazing music, but was shamefully rushed yeah. The gameplay was quite solid however, and enjoyed it more than the typical Star Fox game. Could just be my preference in gaming genre, or the typical Rare magic though.

 

[Quillion]

I imagine the simplicity of the ability design was something of a compromise in order to maintain the controls intuitive, considering the inputs needed to move take more space now, using down and up in a D-Pad/Stick aren't longer options to support skill sets.

Though, as we can see with the game's definite ability, HAL is actually experimenting with how giving the abilities more attacks in a 3D context

I think that's the most likely reason too, but I feel that Forgotten Land's final ability upgrade shows how much moves can be put in even with up and down sacrificed.

I feel that the solution is similar to how Sword is handled in Forgotten Land:

• Neutral attacks are still neutral attacks. Same with charge attacks.
• Former dash attacks replace slide.
• "Upper" attacks should be crouch+attack on ground.
• Plunging attacks should be crouch in midair.

 

[Lenidem]

Actually, I was trying to make a joke about her design in that game. But I'm not funny...

Oh, I see. Sorry for the misunderstanding.

Well, Star Fox Adventures just holds a sort of special place in my heart for being the last Rare console game on Nintendo, and it had a rough development cycle changing it's whole identity as a original game Dinosaur Planet and becoming Star Fox. Think part of the reason was Nintendo felt Rare neglected working on Nintendo IPs as Donkey Kong, and where just looking to establish their own brands ever since Banjo Kazooie. At least that's my take on it. The game was beautifully looking, had amazing music, but was shamefully rushed yeah. The gameplay was quite solid however, and enjoyed it more than the typical Star Fox game. Could just be my preference in gaming genre, or the typical Rare magic though.

Actually, I do have a soft spot for this game too. Unlike many people, I was genuinely excited to see the Starfox characters in a different setting and with a different gameplay. Krystal is cool. The graphics are amazing. But playing it is just not fun for me. It's like a poor imitation of a Zelda, and the endgame is especially disappointing.

Spoiler: End of Starfox Adventure

You don't even fight the general Scale, and while I don't mind facing Andross, the fact that the last battle is in your Arwing feels totally out of place.

So, yeah. Some good stuff in it, but as a whole, it kinda fails for me.

 

[Troykv]

I think that's the most likely reason too, but I feel that Forgotten Land's final ability upgrade shows how much moves can be put in even with up and down sacrificed.

I feel that the solution is similar to how Sword is handled in Forgotten Land:

• Neutral attacks are still neutral attacks. Same with charge attacks.
• Former dash attacks replace slide.
• "Upper" attacks should be crouch+attack on ground.
• Plunging attacks should be crouch in midair.

Yeah, that is precisely what I was thinking.

 

[Quillion]

As much hype as BotW gives it, the Master Sword just isn't fun to use in that game. Even in its dormant state, it just feels too good to the point of feeling disengaged from the main conceit of exploring. It's much more fun to fight with the weapons you search for rather than use it (bad as BotW's weapon power curve is).

Even on my first playthrough, I eventually stopped using the Master Sword since I found the resource management of found weapons better tailored for the larger game. Later playthroughs just treated it as as story obligation.

 

[LiveStudioAudience]

As a personal counter to that, I think the entire degradation system feels undercooked in BoTW. The rest of the game pulls off rewarding creativity with exploration and movement, but when it comes to weapons, its just resource management. It doesn't feel as interesting or as deep as the rest of the game, and is easily the thing I'd most want improved.

I'm not saying Tears of a Kingdom should have no weapons break, but surely there's a middle ground that could be managed. I think a nice compromise of sorts would be to have environments with even bigger effects on weapons as opposed to degradation across the board for all of them. Perhaps a sword that's breakable far quicker in hot areas than cold, or a bow that excels in the shade or nightfall but gets badly affected by the sun. Integrate pseudo magic elemental handicaps, with a shield that's very slow to degrade, but doubles damage by your enemies as a trade off when used. Just make the whole concept a bit more dynamic in its execution.

 

[Diddy Kong]

BotW's weapon mechanic would be fine, if there was like a blacksmith or something as a forging system that fixes weapon durability for Rupees or ores. It seems very logical, and gives you reason to collect these more. In general, more durability on weapons would be ideal, and makes fighting not feel like a chore.

Speaking of fighting, the feeling of combat being a chore at times is worse in BotW because, well, the combat isn't nearly as fun. It has great mechanics as the perfect dodge into Flurry Rush, but the basic attacks aren't nearly as coherent , satisfying or fluid as in say, Wind Waker, Twilight Princess or Skyward Sword. I feel that the Sword arts from Twilight Princess are missing and would improve this a lot, not even the stab down, overhead slash, or rolling back slash are there, and they where quite a staple since Wind Waker. Combat is basically spamming flurry rush and your strongest weapons, dodge and shoot at weak points with your best bows and arrows, and use the Champion abilities situationally, or the enemy has a specific weakness which doesn't happen all too often. You can be creative with runes and playing with the elements, but the basic combat feels quite lacking compared to most other 3D Zelda games.

 

[Quillion]

I'm not saying Tears of a Kingdom should have no weapons break, but surely there's a middle ground that could be managed. I think a nice compromise of sorts would be to have environments with even bigger effects on weapons as opposed to degradation across the board for all of them. Perhaps a sword that's breakable far quicker in hot areas than cold, or a bow that excels in the shade or nightfall but gets badly affected by the sun. Integrate pseudo magic elemental handicaps, with a sheild that's very slow to degrade, but doubles damage by your enemies as a trade off when used. Just make the whole concept a bit more dynamic in its execution.

Sounds like you want more varied weapon functionality, which I definitely agree with. When there's no difference between a Boko Club and a Royal Broadsword other than more damage and more time to use, there's something wrong.

The thing I want fixed the most about the weapon system is the weapon power curve (and enemy health curve in addition to that). I've been playing BotW ripped to PC and modded with Hyrule Rebalance, and I love that while some weapons are still stronger than others, there's still a niche for weaker weapons like Traveler weapons. I especially love how the Hylian weapons follow the "Fire Emblem" convention where weaker weapons are more durable than stronger ones. The fact that certain weapons function as weaknesses (more than just Goron weapons on Taluses) is also a nice touch.

BotW's weapon mechanic would be fine, if there was like a blacksmith or something as a forging system that fixes weapon durability for Rupees or ores. It seems very logical, and gives you reason to collect these more. In general, more durability on weapons would be ideal, and makes fighting not feel like a chore.

I think simply buying weapons from a smith a la Robbie but with every other weapon in the game was a major missed opportunity, especially since ores practically no good for anything but selling.

I feel that the Sword arts from Twilight Princess are missing and would improve this a lot, not even the stab down, overhead slash, or rolling back slash are there, and they where quite a staple since Wind Waker.

I want sword skills back too, but hopefully they don't make them as time-inefficient as TP made them. They're only really good for mildly styling on in that game.

 

[Aligo]

XC3 will probably get retconned.

Also provided they make melee combat more varied, I think tears of the kingdom will do fine.

 

[fogbadge]

XC3 will probably get retconned. That is all.

Also provided they make melee combat more varied, I think tears of the kingdom will do fine.

i love the way you say that is all before saying something else

 

[Aligo]

My bad I wanted to say my piece then got distracted by the rather juicy weapon durability discussion. In my opinion the durability is just a scapegoat for the real issue of BOTWs fighting issue - the lack of variety in melee combat. Most of the cool environmental stuff is relegated to the great plateau and shrine stuff, while the majority just has you pressing y until the monsters die. Bows are a bit better, as you actually have to aim.

 

[Quillion]

XC3 will probably get retconned. That is all.

As long as it's something like explaining more about what the Conduit does and how its disappearance triggered the collision of the Bionis remnants and Alrest, great.

Hopefully they won't unnecessarily continue the Klaus saga though.

 

[Aligo]

I am worried that since the DLC was built on a rotten foundation, it will only continue to make things worse. Even in the smaller aspects there are major inconsistencies. Also the fact that the important content is locked behind DLC is a bit of a rubbish practice too.

 

[fogbadge]

As long as it's something like explaining more about what the Conduit does and how its disappearance triggered the collision of the Bionis remnants and Alrest, great.

Hopefully they won't unnecessarily continue the Klaus saga though.

they were already colliding the conduit was the fail safe

 

[Quillion]

I am worried that since the DLC was built on a rotten foundation, it will only continue to make things worse. Even in the smaller aspects there are major inconsistencies. Also the fact that the important content is locked behind DLC is a bit of a rubbish practice too.

What do you mean by this?

 

[fogbadge]

What do you mean by this?

at a guess they didn’t like the story

 

[Aligo]

The combination releasing the game way too early, and removing the key characters so they could be used to advertise DLC resulted in a half baked mess of a plot that has problems with tonal consistently, lacks explaination for many many things, and doesn't contribute anything of note to the overall story of the series due to the nature of the ending. I believe they changed writer in the middle of development too, which contributes to the issue.

Will explain more in a bit as quite a lot of the issues were caused by outside factors. The other two xeno games that I played were great and I hope things there can get better again. Sorry If I sound rather angry, I just get rather emotional about these things.

 

[fogbadge]

The combination releasing the game way too early, and removing the key characters so they could be used to advertise DLC resulted in a half baked mess of a plot that has problems with tonal consistently, lacks explaination for many many things, and doesn't contribute anything of note to the overall story of the series due to the nature of the ending. I believe they changed writer in the middle of development too, which contributes to the issue.

Will explain more in a bit as quite a lot of the issues were caused by outside factors. The other two xeno games that I played were great and I hope things there can get better again. Sorry If I sound rather angry, I just get rather emotional about these things.

you call a game in development for 5 years too early? also how do you know key characters were removed to promote dlc?

 

[Aligo]

I will present a full account in a while, it may take a bit to write up and check my sources are correct, as well as collecting more info about the development of the game. I wouldn't want to spread misinformation.

Until then what would people's opinions be on a full Starfox game using the gameplay they had in starlink?

 

[Quillion]

Until then what would people's opinions be on a full Starfox game using the gameplay they had in starlink?

Is it at all similar to Lego Skywalker Saga where you can participate in little space skirmishes and get money rewards for it?

 

[Aligo]

That is one aspect, but the main thing I was thinking about was each ship being 'parts' with bodies wings and weapons being able to be mixed in order to create a custom ship.

Parts can also be rotated, so yes you can have your guns fire backwards. Different parts had different stats so you could create a generalist or specialist ship.

There is a lot more to the overall system, but that is the general gist of it.

 

[LiveStudioAudience]

Until then what would people's opinions be on a full Starfox game using the gameplay they had in starlink?

Starlink is a solid base for Star Fox title, but it needs expanded on and given a better gameplay loop than just doing the planetary scans and repeated hierarchy of enemy types. If the core of the game was open world, but there were select on rail sections (not unlike BotW's shrines) then at that point you can effectively balance out the sense of non-linear exploration and focused level design that good Star Fox titles excel at. One could even incorporate a rewards system with it via finding missions/jobs in the wild that get you money, which you use to improve your Arwings, which in turn gets you better results when doing the on-rails bits.

I think one could even pull off good depth with the choice in Arwing pilots to accompany you. Make it a big cast (at least seven selections of Fox, Falco, Slippy, Peppy, Miyu, Fay, & Krystal) and create a system of plus and minus elements with them. Certain ones will be better for particular missions, while others might be ideal for staying at the Great Fox and defending it from enemy attacks. Lots of potential if done right.

 

[Aligo]

I really like those ideas!

 

[Quillion]

Starlink is a solid base for Star Fox title, but it needs expanded on and given a better gameplay loop than just doing the planetary scans and repeated hierarchy of enemy types. If the core of the game was open world, but there were select on rail sections (not unlike BotW's shrines) then at that point you can effectively balance out the sense of non-linear exploration and focused level design that good Star Fox titles excel at. One could even incorporate a rewards system with it via finding missions/jobs in the wild that get you money, which you use to improve your Arwings, which in turn gets you better results when doing the on-rails bits.

I think one could even pull off good depth with the choice in Arwing pilots to accompany you. Make it a big cast (at least seven selections of Fox, Falco, Slippy, Peppy, Miyu, Fay, & Krystal) and create a system of plus and minus elements with them. Certain ones will be better for particular missions, while others might be ideal for staying at the Great Fox and defending it from enemy attacks. Lots of potential if done right.

I was just thinking that too. Big open space hub for just flying around, but moments with focused linear design.

I just hope the levels don't use the typical "out of bounds and fail" design. I'd take segmented levels instead.

 

[Quillion]

Unlikely as it may be, the time is right for Nintendo to release some of their games on PC.

 

[LiveStudioAudience]

Unlikely as it may be, the time is right for Nintendo to release some of their games on PC.

You know what would be a nice compromise? A 25 year rule, where Nintendo ports their games to PC 25 years after release to allow play/mods for that platform. Gives plenty of time for Nintendo to maximize profits from their preferred means, but allows old favorites from their library to get a new audience via stuff like Steam.

 

[Quillion]

You know what would be a nice compromise? A 25 year rule, where Nintendo ports their games to PC 25 years after release to allow play/mods for that platform. Gives plenty of time for Nintendo to maximize profits from their preferred means, but allows old favorites from their library to get a new audience via stuff like Steam.

I think 15 years is better considering the availability issues of GameCube games.

But yeah, a big win for Nintendo should they go that route. More sales, better PR, modding for the fans, better preservation... the only thing that would be hurt is Nintendo's pride in exclusivity, and that can be mitigated by only selling select games rather than all of them.

 

[Troykv]

I think 15 years is better considering the availability issues of GameCube games.

But yeah, a big win for Nintendo should they go that route. More sales, better PR, modding for the fans, better preservation... the only thing that would be hurt is Nintendo's pride in exclusivity, and that can be mitigated by only selling select games rather than all of them.

That could work very well for the old games that just don't make sense as system sellers, getting them in PC would be cool.

 

[Quillion]

Calling Fire Emblem "too anime" is disingenuous since anime is just as diverse as anything in the animation medium.

...but I still think Fates is way too waifu-pandery and Engage as it looks now is too moe (or blushy-crushy as translated in Xenoblade 2).
----
What the hell happened to Toadsworth? For being established as Peach's head retainer in the main series, he doesn't seem to show up anymore outside of remakes and rereleases.

Having him and Captain Toad coexist makes more sense than having a young retainer Toad being a main character. More specifically, Toadsworth can serve as Peach's right hand, and then the Captain can be the young Toad going on adventures.