The New Tier List

[Fireblaster]

but if you get only one chance to throw Ness off, hes dead.

I completely agree

 

[Dr_Strangelove]

but if you get only one change to throw link off, hes dead.

Not necessarily, link's up-b has stupidly good priority and range. If you're tricky with your recovery you can survive quite well by actually hitting the edgeguarder with it.

 

[KoRoBeNiKi]

but if you get only one change to throw link off, hes dead.

I find it much more difficult to grab a camping Link than to get a camping Ness.

But that might just be me :O

 

[firo]

Speaking of Ness, are him and Jigglypuff ever going to switch places? The matchups are now in Ness's favor.

 

[Blue Yoshi]

Haven't had time to read most of these threads (between work, grandfather's "surprise" birthday party, and many other things). But one thing I do want to warn people about is censor dodging. I've re-read the posts I missed, and two posts I had to edit. Since it's 3 days (or more) since you've made the post, I won't infract you... but just a warning for next time, don't try to avoid the censors on smashboards, or you will be infracted for it (there is a special infraction for this).

Don't want to be the mean guy, but some people have gotten away with it when they shouldn't...

 

[NixxxoN]

Not necessarily, link's up-b has stupidly good priority and range. If you're tricky with your recovery you can survive quite well by actually hitting the edgeguarder with it.

You have 2 kinda safe ways to edgeguard him, one by downsmash (has even more range) and another by spike coming from above. Both can edgeguard and if you are aware of his movements and boomerangs you wont get hit
a third way would be edgehogging but you need link's % a bit higher

 

[asianaussie]

Bombs > boomerangs when recovering

At least bombs can damage opponents when you die because you can't reach the ****ed stage. The boomerang is sauntering along just whistling 'hey look at me im easy to avoid'.

Also, if you throw a boomerang and it gets shielded back to you, the catching animation just might gay you. Badly.

 

[Mahie]

Plus you can throw bombs downwards, hit them, SDI, and go further, and when you succeed you feel really proud about it.

 

[Darth Rancorous]

Plus you can throw bombs downwards, hit them, SDI, and go further, and when you succeed you feel really proud about it.

but how many players can actually pull this off everytime?? from my experience, ive only seen it done a couple of times without success

 

[Mahie]

Well first you need to be in a situation where its actually useful, it doesn't happen and you don't notice it half the time. Then, the timing on the bair isn't too hard, but the SDI is hard. I did it like 2times maybe... and there was a lot of luck involved.

 

[dch111]

It's only useful when recovering from high (but far; otherwise you wouldn't need it), and even then, you end up facing backwards so you'll need mad ledge DI skills if your opponent plans on edgeguarding. Probably more useful in free for all (opponents distracted by other opponents), teams (teammate covering for you), or items battles (random bob-omb launches both players to opposite sides of the screen...who. Will. Recover???!!! looks like kirby has this...wait wait what is this link doing.. pulling out a bomb?!..backkicking it to upB recovery!?...OHH and he makes it back!!! the kirby dies from shock! and that's game, folks!)

 

[Mahie]

I'd rather have a chance at Ledge DI than nothing at all, especially considering DI is my strong point.

 

[SuPeRbOoM]

Bombs > boomerangs when recovering

At least bombs can damage opponents when you die because you can't reach the ****ed stage. The boomerang is sauntering along just whistling 'hey look at me im easy to avoid'.

Also, if you throw a boomerang and it gets shielded back to you, the catching animation just might gay you. Badly.

you can boomerang to the ledge and prevent the opponent from edgehogging you, much more useful than bomb

 

[asianaussie]

Do boomerangs cut through everything on the return?

Bomb recovery is easier on keyboard than controller.

 

[ballin4life]

It's only useful when recovering from high (but far; otherwise you wouldn't need it), and even then, you end up facing backwards so you'll need mad ledge DI skills if your opponent plans on edgeguarding. Probably more useful in free for all (opponents distracted by other opponents), teams (teammate covering for you), or items battles (random bob-omb launches both players to opposite sides of the screen...who. Will. Recover???!!! looks like kirby has this...wait wait what is this link doing.. pulling out a bomb?!..backkicking it to upB recovery!?...OHH and he makes it back!!! the kirby dies from shock! and that's game, folks!)

I read this in Jim Ross's voice (pro wrestling announcer) and started laughing

 

[Surri-Sama]

Haven't had time to read most of these threads (between work, grandfather's "surprise" birthday party, and many other things). But one thing I do want to warn people about is censor dodging. I've re-read the posts I missed, and two posts I had to edit. Since it's 3 days (or more) since you've made the post, I won't infract you... but just a warning for next time, don't try to avoid the censors on smashboards, or you will be infracted for it (there is a special infraction for this).

Don't want to be the mean guy, but some people have gotten away with it when they shouldn't...

This means you sux!

haha jk...

 

[Blue Yoshi]

I take after the best, Surri

 

[Mariofan12]

I think this is the only accurate tier lists out of the 3 games. With the NTSC Melee tier list, Mario has better Match-ups than DK. Also, they put Pichu last, however, Bowser has the worst match-ups average. With Brawl, as I have said before, Mario deserves to be in the middle area, not low area. Also, why did R.O.B. really drop from the first to the current SSBB tier list. On the first one he was in 6th, now he is 17th. Why did he really drop? He may not be my favorite character, but still, why did he really drop so much?

 

[dandan]

I think this is the only accurate tier lists out of the 3 games. With the NTSC Melee tier list, Mario has better Match-ups than DK. Also, they put Pichu last, however, Bowser has the worst match-ups average. With Brawl, as I have said before, Mario deserves to be in the middle area, not low area. Also, why did R.O.B. really drop from the first to the current SSBB tier list. On the first one he was in 6th, now he is 17th. Why did he really drop? He may not be my favorite character, but still, why did he really drop so much?

i think you are asking this questions at the wrong place, as some here, me included, have no idea about brawl.

 

[ballin4life]

It's important to note that it's not raw matchup average that matters, but weighted matchup average according to how important each matchup is.

 

[Blue Yoshi]

I think this is the only accurate tier lists out of the 3 games. With the NTSC Melee tier list, Mario has better Match-ups than DK. Also, they put Pichu last, however, Bowser has the worst match-ups average. With Brawl, as I have said before, Mario deserves to be in the middle area, not low area. Also, why did R.O.B. really drop from the first to the current SSBB tier list. On the first one he was in 6th, now he is 17th. Why did he really drop? He may not be my favorite character, but still, why did he really drop so much?

Well... there are many reasons why the 64 tier list is much more accurate than the other two. First, we only have to deal with 12 characters, meaning there's 12x11=132 matchups we have to consider. Melee has 26 characters, meaning 26x25= 650 matchups they have to consider (5 times as many as smash 64). Brawl has 37 characters, meaning 37x36=1332 matchups to consider (10 times as any as smash 64, 2 times as many as melee). Having to deal with more matchups makes making a tier list harder.

Another problem (also a result of having more characters in the game) is that some characters are rarely used in tournaments (e.g. bottom/low tiers). So people don't know how good that character can be, (and on the same note, how bad that character can be). I skimmed through some posts in the melee matchup chart thread, and... well, for Zelda, most people seem to think Zelda has Fair and Bair as legitimate moves that she can use (which is obviously not true). People think GaW's shield gets shield poked by anything (sure it's the worst in the game, but that is ridiculous. Has anyone heard of lightshielding?) Pichu and Kirby are the "lol, they suck, lets give them -3's all around" characters. And, as you can see, almost every bottom tier character has a -3 vs a top tier character (with some -2's), when obviously this isn't completely true. I main bottom tier characters (GaW, Pichu, for example), and some matchups there are just completely wrong.

But yeah... my point is that with 26 characters in the game, there are going to be some characters that very few people main... meaning incorrect results for those characters. Brawl with more characters will have a worse case of this.

One reason why the 64 tier list is very accurate is that almost everyone who plays at high level play can play every character decently, so everyone knows what every character can do (obviously the mains will know more... e.g. Sheer will know more about Yoshi than I do). But bottom line is everyone knows what every character can do, and testing matchups (especially bottom tiers) is much more easily done than it is in melee and brawl.

As for your examples, your melee examples, tier lists are determined by tournament placings of those characters more than matchups for that character (Gimpyfish reps Bowser very well, Taj reps Mewtwo very well... no one plays Kirby or Pichu). So Bowser and Mewtwo get good tourney placements, while Kirby and Pichu don't.

As for your brawl example, ROB was one of the better characters in the first tier list because not much was known about the characters at the time. Over time, there have been many flaws found for ROB (e.g. get him in the air and attack him from below... he can't do much to prevent it). Other characters have improved alot since the first tier list as well (IC's have 0-death chain grabs, Pikachu has many 0-high damage chaingrabs), so it's not just ROB going down, it's other characters going up as well.

 

[ballin4life]

Blue Yoshi I count 78 matchups to be debated in smash 64. There's 132 to know but only 78 to be debated.

 

[Fireblaster]

Well... there are many reasons why the 64 tier list is much more accurate than the other two. First, we only have to deal with 12 characters, meaning there's 12x11=132 matchups we have to consider. Melee has 26 characters, meaning 26x25= 650 matchups they have to consider (5 times as many as smash 64). Brawl has 37 characters, meaning 37x36=1332 matchups to consider (10 times as any as smash 64, 2 times as many as melee). Having to deal with more matchups makes making a tier list harder.

Blue Yoshi I count 78 matchups to be debated in smash 64. There's 132 to know but only 78 to be debated.

Both your maths are off.

Smash 64 matchups = ((12 !) / ((10 !) * 2)) = 66
Melee matchups = ((26 !) / ((24 !) * 2)) = 325
Brawl matchups = ((37 !) / ((35 !) * 2)) = 666 (lolwut)

But your point still stands. Melee has almost 6 times the matchups of 64. Brawl has a little more than twice the matchups of Melee and 10 times the matchups of 64.

 

[ballin4life]

12 matchups for luigi, 11 for mario (don't want to count luigi vs mario twice), 10 for dk, 9 for link etc is 12+11+10+...+1 = (12/2)*13 = 78

You should add the mirror matches back in not subtract. They aren't counted when you do 12 choose 2 (12 choose 2 counts combinations without replacement)

 

[Fireblaster]

Blue Yoshi I count 78 matchups to be debated in smash 64. There's 132 to know but only 78 to be debated.

12 matchups for luigi, 11 for mario (don't want to count luigi vs mario twice), 10 for dk, 9 for link etc is 12+11+10+...+1 = (12/2)*13 = 78

You should add the mirror matches back in not subtract. They aren't counted when you do 12 choose 2 (12 choose 2 counts combinations without replacement)

You're right, my calculations already took into account mirror matches and ignores it, so I should not have substracted anything. So it is actually 66 matches, not 78 or 54.

 

[The Star King]

I agree with the main point of your post, but

I skimmed through some posts in the melee matchup chart thread, and... well, for Zelda, most people seem to think Zelda has Fair and Bair as legitimate moves that she can use (which is obviously not true).

Lolwut, her Bair and Fair are the best thing about her (except her Down+B)

People think GaW's shield gets shield poked by anything (sure it's the worst in the game, but that is ridiculous. Has anyone heard of lightshielding?)

Yeah, but if GaW lightshields he slides too far to counter with anything. GaW's defense in general is just awful, his offensive capabalities are actually quite good for a low tier though.

Pichu and Kirby are the "lol, they suck, lets give them -3's all around" characters. And, as you can see, almost every bottom tier character has a -3 vs a top tier character (with some -2's), when obviously this isn't completely true.

The thing is, these characters are often actually THAT BAD that these horrible matchups are true. It's sad, I know. And, very few people have experience in these matchups, so people are forced to theorize about the matchups, which often seem worse in theory than they actually are.

But yeah I completely agree with the main point of your post.

 

[Blue Yoshi]

Oh haha my math was completely wrong. I didn't want to take into account mirror matches, so I did:

(# chars) X (# chars - 1)

to get all the squares in the matchup chart that are not mirror matches. However, I didn't think about Pikachu vs Kirby also appears as Kirby vs Pikachu (as in, I counted every matchup twice). Lol, my bad

And I know Pichu and Kirby are that bad... but it was to get the general idea across.

 

[t3h Icy]

So help out Blue. =) There's a lot of people that just yell whatever they want and won't accept anything else, but I know that you know what you're talking about.

Also I play two high tiers in each game, so I can only do so much myself effectively.

 

[Blue Yoshi]

I think your best bet is to go to each individual low tier boards, and get the people that play the characters to come up with a match-up chart.

And I already tried to help, but it resulted in people saying "here come the low tier mains asking for respect again". Not really worth trying to say what I think if it results in getting flamed in return.

 

[t3h Icy]

Yeah, that always bites and I've been flamed a lot, but there has been quite a bit of progress.

Like I said, you know what you're talking about so I consider your opinion a lot, unless someone can shutdown something your character can do.

(PM'd)

 

[MarioMariox2]

MATH

This talk about match and matchups is motivating me to work harder in math at school for these real life applications (Matchup and Frame data). No sarcasm here.

 

[Blue Yoshi]

This talk about match and matchups is motivating me to work harder in math at school for these real life applications (Matchup and Frame data). No sarcasm here.

If you do well in math at school, soon you'll be able to answer some 'mod'-related questions

 

[ballin4life]

You're right, my calculations already took into account mirror matches and ignores it, so I should not have substracted anything. So it is actually 66 matches, not 78 or 54.

12 choose 2 is 12! / (10!*2!) = 66 but this is without replacement.

It's the same as doing 12 choices for the first character and 11 choices for the second character (so no mirror matches), but then dividing by 2 to not count both sides of the same matchup.

But this does not count the mirror matches at all so you have to add them back in and you get 66+12 = 78, which also happens to be 12+11+10+...+1

Count the squares on a matchup chart and you'll see that the number of matchups is 12+11+10+...+1

Also Blue Yoshi I was just being a hater, there are 132 matchups to know since you have to know both sides of a matchup. But there are only 78 actual character combinations.

Math is awesome by the way

 

[Fireblaster]

I wasn't trying to count in the mirror matches since there's absolutely no point in discussing them. That's why the only important matchups are 66, not 78.

 

[NOKAUBURE]

I hate the tiers and I hate the tiers all my live

Because it depends to the players and his experiences. In my point, is more difficult to beat a luigi because his B-UP is overpowered. And mario doesnt look that good. But again, it depends to the players.

 

[Mahie]

No it doesn't.

 

[t3h Icy]

I hate the tiers and I hate the tiers all my live

Because it depends to the players and his experiences. In my point, is more difficult to beat a luigi because his B-UP is overpowered. And mario doesnt look that good. But again, it depends to the players.

You obviously have never played anyone semi-good then.

 

[ballin4life]

I wasn't trying to count in the mirror matches since there's absolutely no point in discussing them. That's why the only important matchups are 66, not 78.

My nitpicking loses to your super nitpicking.

 

[KoRoBeNiKi]

I hate the tiers and I hate the tiers all my live

Because it depends to the players and his experiences. In my point, is more difficult to beat a luigi because his B-UP is overpowered. And mario doesnt look that good. But again, it depends to the players.

if Pikachu, Kirby, and fox weren't broken, they wouldn't be winning the majority of tournaments

Likewise if Samus and DK weren't so bad, they wouldn't be losing.

Spoiler

inb4 darthrancourus or other Samus's

 

[Darth Rancorous]

haha, funny but true koro.

me and ballin4life are planning to record some matches this weekend. and hopefully we'll be able to put them up so u guys can provide feedback, and more importantly to add input for the tier list/matchup chart discussions.