The New Tier List

[NixxxoN]

Oh please, stop being stuck up and pretending to be on the moral high ground while applying double standards. If someone in real life was really trying to express their wrong "opnion" about the game, I would try to correct them and show them the light in the most peaceful way possible. However, since this newb comes in with stupid claims that our collection of data and experience is somehow wrong because his experience from his extremely small sample size of friends says otherwise, he knows he is protected because of internet anonymity as well. You wouldn't have respect for somebody that goes to a gun owners' club meeting and then tries to tell them that they're evil for supporting such violent tools. Yet for some reason you defend ignorant newbs that try to claim an entire community is wrong without any real evidence or support?

tl;dr - Stop using double standards. Stop defending ignorant newbs. No mercy for people that are incapable of reading or using logic.

Theres a difference between defending him and asking for non rude responses to newbies. You know, not everyone likes to spend a lot of time getting informed by reading the hundreds of thread pages.
Did your teacher bash the hell out of you everytime you said/did something wrong in elementary school?

 

[asianaussie]

In elementary school you're expected to learn. If you want to follow that example, then ellimist is the guy who barges in and says that the maths they're teaching the kids is wrong, and that we should all listen to his theory on basic arithmetic.

 

[ballin4life]

I like the fact that one condescending post sparked a flame war over exactly how rude it was.

 

[Fireblaster]

Theres a difference between defending him and asking for non rude responses to newbies. You know, not everyone likes to spend a lot of time getting informed by reading the hundreds of thread pages.
Did your teacher bash the hell out of you everytime you said/did something wrong in elementary school?

You want non-rude responses? How about you try looking and realizing there were already 8 of them made?

You're being close minded once again and making up scenarios to defend this ignorant newb. I'm looking at the front page of topics and right away I see one that says "COME HERE FIRST". I click on it, and what do I see near the top?

The New Tier List
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=250563

*IMPORTANT* The tier list is for HIGH LEVEL PLAY and was based off theorycrafting matchups. It is important to note that, unlike many other competitive tier lists, this list did not have significant tournament results to work with, and thus the community collectively discussed matchups and used MATH to come up with this list. It is not intended to let you to go and complain to your Pikachu using friends, nor is it there for you to say 'haha you suck because you use Samus'. Once again, it is for HIGH LEVEL PLAY.

I have no idea why you keep defending this newb. Go ahead, make another stupid post ignoring all logic ("but... but... THE NON-RUDENESS ")

And no, my teachers were not harsh at all, in fact quite the opposite. I'd be often annoyed at how often the class was slowed down because there was always one guy that kept asking a question after every lesson and still barely understood it. But at least he tried to understand, learn more, and not pretend he knew what he was doing.

 

[Mahie]

The question is why is this still going on ?

 

[NixxxoN]

Lol whatever angryman. Keep on spreading your anger all over the forum then
and go murder that feking noob!

 

[Ellimist1221]

My bad

I apologize, I kind of just overreacted. I'm not some alternate profile or anything. I've just never known about these tiers, I've always played as Samus and when I found out that Samus is pretty much just a joke to the entire smash community. I got kind of pissed when I saw that she was last on the list. The only reason I created this profile was to express that. I've never actually been on any blogs or forums or anything. I didn't think that my comment would be that big a deal. Honestly I might be new to this whole posting thing, but I am really good at Smash Bros., at least on the 64. Like I said I've been playing since it first came out and not just against a small group of friends. And thanks to those who wern't rude, I appreciate the constructive info.

 

[Darth Rancorous]

i still think samus should be above link

 

[StealthECartman]

I apologize, I kind of just overreacted. I'm not some alternate profile or anything. I've just never known about these tiers, I've always played as Samus and when I found out that Samus is pretty much just a joke to the entire smash community. I got kind of pissed when I saw that she was last on the list. The only reason I created this profile was to express that. I've never actually been on any blogs or forums or anything. I didn't think that my comment would be that big a deal. Honestly I might be new to this whole posting thing, but I am really good at Smash Bros., at least on the 64. Like I said I've been playing since it first came out and not just against a small group of friends. And thanks to those who wern't rude, I appreciate the constructive info.

The only thing you failed to realize is that tier list simply basically means the list of chars on the game organized by general strengths and weakness and positive/negative matcups. This doesn't at all mean that samus is unplayable, or even can't win. Smash64 is extremely balanced and you can win with any char, at any level of play (generally speaking).

Had you realized that, or read a little bit into it, you wouldn't have gotten flamed that way.

I agree with fireblaster, just not neccessarily the way he went about it...everyone has their own methods.

 

[ballin4life]

Samus isn't a joke she's just at the bottom of the tier list. You can definitely still be good with Samus. The tiers aren't that big in this game.

Dan from street fighter and Roll from Marvel vs Capcom 2 are jokes

 

[Darth Rancorous]

Samus isn't a joke she's just at the bottom of the tier list. You can definitely still be good with Samus. The tiers aren't that big in this game.

Dan from street fighter and Roll from Marvel vs Capcom 2 are jokes

or even pichu in melee

 

[ballin4life]

Actually ness is probably more of a joke than samus. You can't say anything about ness in the tier list without 5 people coming in and saying ness sucks

 

[blaze3927]

i reckon ness is a joke on dreamland or hyrule, but on peachs castle i generally get withing 1/2 stocks (sometimes even win) against pikachus/fox's that 4/5stock me evrytime on dreamland /hyrule

 

[NixxxoN]

ness isnt a joke, you just have to be extremely careful not to end up getting kicked out of the stage and using the recovery because you are ****** up. Also, people say "ness sucks" because it was formerly placed 3rd on the tier list.

 

[blaze3927]

ness is a joke because
*he has no good matchups,
*his recovery is so slow that if your off the stage on dreamland or hyrule your stuffed,
*most of his approaches require double jump cancel and unfortunately that requires you to use your ****ty third recovery if your knocked off the stage
*his range is terrible except for utilt , uair is only good if there above you and every bair in the game has better range
*he has little options for lateral movement in a combo therefore it is difficult to combo in a finisher

 

[NixxxoN]

From I exp I realised that you gotta play defensive with ness and he can do well. He isnt one of those to go and flat-out attacking the opponent.

 

[DMoogle]

From I exp I realised that you gotta play defensive with ness and he can do well. He isnt one of those to go and flat-out attacking the opponent.

I think I'm one of the most aggressive players at my general skill level, but I've still experienced good success with Ness.

Also, as far as his b-air's range goes, yes, the move itself doesn't have THAT much range compared to other b-airs, but when you couple it with Ness' extreme horizontal DJC speed, it makes it have better range and versatility than any other character's b-air.

 

[KoRoBeNiKi]

I think I'm one of the most aggressive players at my general skill level, but I've still experienced good success with Ness.

Also, as far as his b-air's range goes, yes, the move itself doesn't have THAT much range compared to other b-airs, but when you couple it with Ness' extreme horizontal DJC speed, it makes it have better range and versatility than any other character's b-air.

Pikachu's back air is probably better
Yoshi's DJC back air may be better (more range, I think more priority)

And does it matter if ness play's defensive, then projectile camp.

Its not like other character's can't camp or camp better.

 

[Fireblaster]

Pikachu's might not be better seeing as its size of hitbox only rivals ness's but it's far stronger
Kirby's Bair is better
Mario's Bair is better
Luigi's Bair is better
Falcon's bair is better (no weak hit)
DK's bair is better
Jigglypuff... no
Link, bigger range and longer duration
Fox's bair, possibly one of the best in the game
Samus's Bair? no contest
Yoshi's Bair? It comes out kind of slow, so ness's might be slightly better

 

[Stormcrow2]

ness is a joke because
*he has no good matchups,
*his recovery is so slow that if your off the stage on dreamland or hyrule your stuffed,
*most of his approaches require double jump cancel and unfortunately that requires you to use your ****ty third recovery if your knocked off the stage
*his range is terrible except for utilt , uair is only good if there above you and every bair in the game has better range
*he has little options for lateral movement in a combo therefore it is difficult to combo in a finisher

No good matchups... well, I personally think I have the least trouble and have a pretty even matchup with luigi, jiggs, yoshi, and dk when i play as ness, but that may be just because those characters are floaty and/or large.

The only terrible downside of playing as ness is recovery. It's true, if you're thrown off the stage, you're dead if you're playing against a very skilled player. Even if you can get really close to back on with second jump, you'll just get owned by being thrown again, smashed, whatever and you can die after trying to recover up B like 5 times in a row without touching the main stage.

Ness's range is not terrible. Uair has very good priority and can be chained pretty nicely for platform combos.

Ness's grab is good, and dair is boss for nice combo starting, spike kills, shield breaks, etc.

"Little options for lateral movement"... well, moogle epxlained this one spot on. Ness has great speed with the extended horizontal djc, which makes it an extremely useful tool for tech chasing and good for approaching with bair, dair, and even uair if your opponent is in the air.

Ness's fair may be slightly underestimated by some. I have actually found it very useful lately, and have been implementing the little fair "pop" that ness does if you do it at the right point of his djc. It's kinda like timing the extended horizontal djc, but it's done from being in place to popping forward pretty quickly. It's hard to explain without showing you, but I'm sure some of the advanced players get what I mean.

Overall, ness is not a joke. His recovery is a joke, which is a shame, but it's part of the game. He is otherwise a decent very fun character to use IMO.

 

[asianaussie]

Range =/= priority. Ness's range on U-Air/D-Air/F-Air/N-Air is not good at all.

Ness's F-Air isn't very good. It's almost as bad as Kirby's U-Air in terms of priority and hitbox. I think Kirby's U-Air might actually win because it's so unexpected and is a funny edgeguard.

That said, it has its uses, but I don't see what you could really do with it that B-Air can't (except DJC F-Air chains, which are awesome but ridiculously hard to pull off).

 

[DMoogle]

I'm pretty sure that, for the most part, priority doesn't exist in this game.

 

[blaze3927]

ness has poor matchups on jigglypuff unless you air camp to the max
jiggs dair ***** ness's uair
the only advantage for ness is the shield breaker factor which kills jiggs instantly
donkey kongs huge grab means its very hard to avoid being off the stage, and its very hard to get back on the stage with even an average dk edge guarding you.

but on average i find ness does do better on dk's and yoshis

and he is very fun to play with on peachs castle

lateral movement in combos was what i was reffering to. not general lateral attacks as his bair is fast and works great on poorly rimed fairs/bairs from other characters

 

[dch111]

priority only exists for ground vs ground attacks, and even there I'm not 100% sure of the details. In air vs air, certainly the only factors of hitting are hitbox position (i.e. range) and timing. So if both players predict each other, and they launch similarly ranged aerials at the same time, they both get hit. Air vs ground is the same deal I think...I used to think ground attacks were able to override air attacks, but I learned it's just that usmash and utilt attacks tend to have uncanny range.

and he is very fun to play with on peachs castle

This. If I ever played a 12 character battle, that's where I'd take my Ness to.

 

[Stormcrow2]

Meh, I make good use of ness's f-air in games, and it can also be used to djc/fair cancel/ftilt, unlike the bair. I'd take ness's fair over kirby's uair any day.

Although kirby's uair is fun to try team saves with :D

Hitbox range for f-air actually isn't bad.

 

[asianaussie]

What's a f-air cancel, and how does f-air lend itself to performing f-tilt? (Unless you mean buffering)

Its hitbox actually is bad. Pretty much everybody else in the game has a better F-Air (sometimes even N-Air) hitbox.

Quick question, is Fox's forward hitbox on B-Air as good as Ness's F-Air?

 

[blaze3927]

as in fair straight to utilt
and i think ness' very own nair has a better hitbox than his fair

 

[Fireblaster]

When we talk about priority in this game, we obviously mean length of disjointed hitbox vs. the character's hurtbox.

 

[NixxxoN]

Ness has bad range with some moves but what about his uair and his utilt? his upsmash and downsmash yoyo? Range isnt THAT important IMO if you know how to hit and the exact moment to do an attack

 

[Stormcrow2]

Yeah, fair while keeping forward held, cancel and go straight into the ftilit like blaze said.

While the hitbox may not be the best, I agree with what Nixxxon said... it's all about timing, and depending on what character you use, it's usually best to implement all their different attacks.

While it's true other character f-airs have really nice range (yoshi, link, kirby, samus to name just a few of them), ness's f-air has to be taken with a different approach. While not as strong, it's a pretty quick attack in comparison to other character f-airs, and should be used as such.

I also use f-air to edge guard sometimes; other players may be expecting a jump to dair for the kill from ness, in which you can perform the second jump and swing back a little, then perform the f-air.

 

[KoRoBeNiKi]

I'm pretty sure that, for the most part, priority doesn't exist in this game.

I know you said for the first part..but Kirby's up tilt says hi

The best chars in this game have incredible speed/priority/approach/defense/range

Ness has 1 of these (priority) and possibly speed

 

[asianaussie]

Ness also has gay defence. It's very difficult to approach a Ness DJCing rapidly, unless you're Yoshi or have a giant grab.

 

[blaze3927]

only difficult to apprach if you are....hmm
ummm...
maybe weegi?

IMO its only difficult to approach if your above them which only regularly occurs in...peachs castle

and to dsmash and usmash
dsmash is ok but it either has bad ending lag or bad starting lag depending whether your trying to hit from the front or back. either way if you stuff it up its punishable

usmash is good but utilt is better for defence/approaches, usmash can combo straight to spikes/fsmashes/grabs however

 

[SSBPete]

approaching ness is really hard with yoshi cause ness' utilt outprioritises yoshi's arial attacks.

 

[blaze3927]

dash attack, grab, fair and from the side bair
once again unless you are directly overhead

 

[KoRoBeNiKi]

approaching ness is really hard with yoshi cause ness' utilt outprioritises yoshi's arial attacks.

if the opponent is DJC spamming, down tilt works

so does djc back air if properly spaced.

 

[SSBPete]

i know how to approach ness now, but he was one of the hardest for me to learn to approach.

 

[SuPeRbOoM]

as yoshi just use b against ness lol

 

[asianaussie]

I can beat Ness by spamming projectiles and pivot grabbing him as Link.

 

[NixxxoN]

I can beat Ness by spamming projectiles and pivot grabbing him as Link.

but if you get only one change to throw link off, hes dead.