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The *NEW* Snake Matchup Discussion Index

Neon!

Smash Lord
Joined
Nov 7, 2010
Messages
1,285
Location
Dallas, Texas
The only reason I say DK probably has an easier time against Snake than other characters like Yoshi or Sonic is because once you hit snake and get him in the air, it should be free damage. Recovering against DK is stupid.

I do not really see the times where DK might trade with Snake though?
Trading probably isnt the proper term here, what I meant was DK is one of the only characters who lives as long and kills as fast as snake meaning one mistake against snake isnt devastating like it is for most characters.

False is right, DK's get up attack and rolls are fast and hard to tech chase despite DK's size.

DK can reliably SDI out of snake's nair, half of the time I can avoid the last hit at least and in many situations I've been able to sdi behind and above snake and punish with bair/uair.

I'll wait until a thread is made for this before discussing this any further.
 

Jrugs

Smash Ace
Joined
Jul 24, 2010
Messages
624
Location
140.96
I think bizkit says its like slightly snakes favor if your camping game is really strong
That sounds like every :snake: Mu ever, but if it is +1 its certainly not a strong one. And certainly not a +2.
Im definitely interested in what Neon (aka the guy who beat Razer game 1 @ whobo) and the other Dk's have to say
 

~ Gheb ~

Life is just a party
Joined
Jun 27, 2008
Messages
16,916
Location
Europe
I play against Lp

Edit: But we're both from europe so my experience is null and void

:059:
 

Bonds

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Mar 4, 2012
Messages
253
Location
Beneath the stage, KS
Is this already dead? Someone please bring it back, there are so many matchups we still need to discuss. Imo Meta Knight, Diddy, and Pikachu in particular.
 

Ken Neth

Smash Champion
Joined
Aug 22, 2007
Messages
2,545
Location
BYU- Provo, Utah
Someone a little upset at losing to a pika recently? Lol. I think it's pika's favor, but it's definitely not unwinnable.

As for the matchup discussion, the snake boards have never been good at actually doing them. You may be in luck if someone decides to revamp the matchup discussions and then pika is the first discussed. Maybe the second or third. But other than that, I wouldn't count on it lol

Edit: if you have specific questions about the matchup though, I'm sure someone would be willing to help you out with them.
:phone:
 

~ Gheb ~

Life is just a party
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Messages
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Well, I think the Wario discussion was quite productive - there were a lot of disagreements and good conclusions drawn. I'm not sure why the discussions died in the first place.

:059:
 

Dekillsage

Smash Lord
Joined
Oct 28, 2008
Messages
1,224
Location
There's no peace to be found, anywhere.
Snake vs Dk is +1 in snakes flavor. +2ish on bf and fd, -1 on most of delphino and yoshi's. That's how I feel :l Also are we still discussing ics(its +1 snake btw) or are we moving on? I really need help with Marth guys =(
 

JTsm

Smash Master
Joined
Apr 19, 2010
Messages
3,230
Marth is a fun MU. It's not as hard as people say it is.
 

~ Gheb ~

Life is just a party
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Marth is a very even and skill based match-up. I like it and would like to see a discussion about it.

:059:
 

Ralph Cecil

Smash Champion
Joined
Mar 9, 2010
Messages
2,416
Location
Somewhere in KY QQQQQQQQQQ
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RalphCecil
3DS FC
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I hate the Marth mu, because I usually have to hope that my opponent is impatient or just flat out messes up in some manner when I get in the air or off stage. :I
 

BulletSquall

Smash Rookie
Joined
Mar 20, 2012
Messages
13
Location
Michigan
I agree completely with Ralph Cecil, it feels like you have to wait for them to get impatient, otherwise, they just perfectly space the fairs and whatnot and it's so annoying lol I just end up camping them rather than going aggro too much -___- and as for the Pikachu mu I was more just looking for the basic positives and negatives. Like, I know Pika has that CG on snake and his thunder is a ***** to face when recovering, but are there any special things that snake has over pika? (besides nade camping)
 

Dekillsage

Smash Lord
Joined
Oct 28, 2008
Messages
1,224
Location
There's no peace to be found, anywhere.
From my experience with Marth, Jabing can get you Up B'd, Nade walking to grab will get you faired for free and nair doesn't work and gets you up b'd Dx Those are my favorite moves and it takes me way too long to adapt =(

It does seem that beating Marth requires a bit more patience and reading. For example if I know Marth is going to fair, I should try to power shield it or walk backwards with my grenade and block fair so they can take damage. Pretty beginner basic stuff that I always screw up. I've also been told to dash attack Marths jumps but its so much harder than they say it is. It feels like I basically need to predict them doing jump.


Vs Pikachu... I have almost no experience fighting it. But if I were to play a Pikachu for the first time I would treat it like Wario with a better Falco Cg. Never jump, use grenades to try and control space and we outrange pikachu so as long as we don't try anything greedy we shouldn't take 0-100+ damage and potential death more than once in a set at most. If it becomes that much of a problem just c4 yourself at the start of the stock. I'll take 18% or w/e it is over potential stock loss any day. I should take the time to watch mvd play the match up. He has the most experience at the moment to my knowledge =P
 

JTsm

Smash Master
Joined
Apr 19, 2010
Messages
3,230
It does seem that beating Marth requires a bit more patience and reading. For example if I know Marth is going to fair, I should try to power shield it or walk backwards with my grenade and block fair so they can take damage. Pretty beginner basic stuff that I always screw up. I've also been told to dash attack Marths jumps but its so much harder than they say it is. It feels like I basically need to predict them doing jump.


Vs Pikachu... I have almost no experience fighting it. But if I were to play a Pikachu for the first time I would treat it like Wario with a better Falco Cg. Never jump, use grenades to try and control space and we outrange pikachu so as long as we don't try anything greedy we shouldn't take 0-100+ damage and potential death more than once in a set at most. If it becomes that much of a problem just c4 yourself at the start of the stock. I'll take 18% or w/e it is over potential stock loss any day. I should take the time to watch mvd play the match up. He has the most experience at the moment to my knowledge =P
For Marth, grenade counters are pretty nice at this MU. I always never try to approach because of the options Marth has to stop you. I only approach to know for sure I'm going to hit, and that's very rare. lol. You also want to pick big stages so that you have room to camp and space out.

Pikachu is annoying as hell, but there are things to stop Pika's approaches like power-shielding thunder-jolts and/or jabbing them. You pretty much got the MU in a nutshell, but I would just take in what MVD does against Esam. lol. If you are ever in a CG, you can buffer out a grenade. Pika's with experience will expect this and just wait and then re-grab to throw you off stage. This MU is just really dumb.
 

Ken Neth

Smash Champion
Joined
Aug 22, 2007
Messages
2,545
Location
BYU- Provo, Utah
When people told you to punish Martha's jumps with dash attack, I would assume they meant when he's landing. If he's faired or naired and there's not enough room for him to do another before hitting the ground you should be able to punish him with a dash attack if the situation is right. Keep track of his second jumps because you know he has to come down after that, and look to see if you can punish him.

A few things on the pikachu matchup. If the pika likes to QAC then just throw out attacks. The quick attack extends his hurt box so it's really easy to hit him out of it. Throw out a repetitive jab or an utilt (or even grab if you feel you can time it. That's more risky though), I normally wouldn't do an ftilt cause ftilt 1 just hits him away assuming he's airborn.

Also, when recovering, you Know he's going to thunder, don't be stupid and angle your cypher right to where he's going to thunder. Go straight up or even backwards depending on pika's spacing, then drop out of the cypher once thunder is almost done and get back on the stage- air dodging the second thunder if he does one.

If pikachu hits you up with an usmash, dsmash, utilt, whatever, do not immediately air dodge. You will die from thunder. Wait until you see him do it then airdodge right before it would hit you. Also, try to DI it even a little bit to one side so your horizontal movement during your airdodge will carry you out of range. If you're going straight up I'm pretty sure the thunder lasts enough to still hit you once your airdodge is over.

Power shielding thunderjolts is also really important in this matchup. Get the timing down and try to do it every time.

:phone:
 

False

Smash Lord
Joined
Oct 8, 2010
Messages
1,151
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Heaven's Arena, Republic of Padokea
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I heavily suggest picking up ICs or another counter for pikachu, the pinnacle of what this metagame (pika vs sna) can be played at is impossible for snake to win. MVD doesn't beat pikachu, MVD beats Esam. They practice all the time, they know each other inside out lol.
 

~ Gheb ~

Life is just a party
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Who cares about MVD? I thought we're talking about the pinnacle of brawl?

:059:
 

BulletSquall

Smash Rookie
Joined
Mar 20, 2012
Messages
13
Location
Michigan
Hell, the other pikas I saw MVD play at WHOBO 4 he beat them pretty easily. I would say he's definitely lucky to have Esam as a sparring partner. Even though they know each other inside and out, he still has picked up what works and what doesn't just from numerous trial and error matches with Esam.
 

~ Gheb ~

Life is just a party
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So that's what happens when a mediocre Snake gets to learn the Pikachu match-up. What happens when a *good* Snake player gets to learn the match-up like that?

:059:
 

JTsm

Smash Master
Joined
Apr 19, 2010
Messages
3,230
So that's what happens when a mediocre Snake gets to learn the Pikachu match-up. What happens when a *good* Snake player gets to learn the match-up like that?

:059:
Get better at the MU ^.^
 

~ Gheb ~

Life is just a party
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Maybe. Maybe not.

My point is that it remains unclear just where Pikachu stands as a difficult match-up.

:059:
 

BulletSquall

Smash Rookie
Joined
Mar 20, 2012
Messages
13
Location
Michigan
Maybe. Maybe not.

My point is that it remains unclear just where Pikachu stands as a difficult match-up.

:059:
I agree. There are other more stressful MUs for snake like the olimar MU. I think so long as the snake player knows the MU w/ pika, and he doesn't do anything reckless, he could do pretty solidly. Of course, Im just speculating, seeing as how I'm not too experienced with that MU ;p

:phone:
 

Attila_

The artist formerly known as 'shmot'
BRoomer
Joined
Jul 22, 2008
Messages
6,025
Location
Melbourne, Australia
Mvd bears esam?

I've watched plenty of his videos, but never considered him on esam's level. If he's winning a matchup that ally loses, he's gotta be doing something very different.

Videos please.

:phone:
 

~ Gheb ~

Life is just a party
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The problem is that it's all ES@M. I don't think we can learn specific tactics against Pikachu just by watching the videos.

:059:
 

BulletSquall

Smash Rookie
Joined
Mar 20, 2012
Messages
13
Location
Michigan
Olimar Snake is even. Snake can't choke once he's in, and if he doesn't then it's guaranteed heavy damage for oli.
Yeah I know it's even, and I completely agree, i'm just saying that the MU with Oli can be a lot more stressful than with pika because if you're playing a really good campy olimar, it's pretty difficult to get "in" :/ at least with pika you can power shield the thunder jolts and have a much easier time getting close rather than with olli keeping you away with his grabs and pikmin tossing.
 

Attila_

The artist formerly known as 'shmot'
BRoomer
Joined
Jul 22, 2008
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6,025
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Melbourne, Australia
I suppose I'm working under the assumption that, since es@m is one of the best players in the us, there shouldn't be any real flaws in his play. Espc in a matchup he would also know very well.

And from that, I'm assuming it's probably a case of mvd doing something right, as opposed to es@m doing something wrong.

:phone:
 

~ Gheb ~

Life is just a party
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Well, it's not like MVD won that match-up more than once. It's more likely that ES@M just did poorly that one time considering MVD didn't do too hot at that tourney himself.

:059:
 

Jrugs

Smash Ace
Joined
Jul 24, 2010
Messages
624
Location
140.96
So that's what happens when a mediocre Snake gets to learn the Pikachu match-up. What happens when a *good* Snake player gets to learn the match-up like that?

:059:
Medicocre? dafuc? I know hes not the best but, I know he's a lil better than tay or most of your snakes you have in europe?..........Oh and :snake: sucks! ;)
 
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