The new Roy Strategem discussion

[exarch]

The biggest problem with Roy mains is that none of us are very good overall players. Unfortunately/Fortunately being bad/good at one character means you're bad/good with everyone because you're bad/good at smash.

 

[Veggiez]

The biggest problem with Roy mains is that none of us are very good overall players. Unfortunately/Fortunately being bad/good at one character means you're bad/good with everyone because you're bad/good at smash.

Wow, you used so many slashes I could swear you were playing Marth.

 

[odinNJ]

Yeah I agree that no amazing players (besides Sethlon) play Roy, because their talent is better used on Marth, that being said, f*** Marth, I had a fun break, back to OUR BOY (and Zelda)

 

[ChivalRuse]

Marth IS just a better version of Roy sadly. It's hard to justify a reason for trying to play him competitively. Some people have already tried and failed.

 

[Veggiez]

Yep. Moves have more ending lag (Utilt, Ftilt, Uair, and Fair especially), Dair spike is highly unreliable/risky, less room to space, lower jump, worst recovery...ever.

Damn, why am I even playing Roy?

 

[Pitzer]

His recovery isn't bad his falling speed is what makes it **** lol

 

[camerino1]

Roy's only moves that have more ending lag are the smashes... all aerials are fast because Roy's SHFFL is generally better. Roy isn't a slow character, his problem really is that he has no hitstun on his attacks and he has possibly the worst hitstun in the game. If Roy's attacks had as much hitstun as Marth's, he'd probably be good.

Edit: His recovery is quite nice, I find. It covers more horizontal than Marth's, and vertical isn't that bad. It really is just that he was designed with an awful weight/fall speed/size thing. Sakurai wanted Roy to be bad, I swear.

 

[Bing]

His recovery isn't bad his falling speed is what makes it **** lol

Therefore his recovery is bad XD

You know whats always nice? When you're play against a Fox that loves to di down. I was doing d-tilt to fair/uair combos all day. I kept telling them to stop, but noooooooooooooo they wouldnt listen.

 

[Veggiez]

Roy's only moves that have more ending lag are the smashes... all aerials are fast because Roy's SHFFL is generally better. Roy isn't a slow character, his problem really is that he has no hitstun on his attacks and he has possibly the worst hitstun in the game. If Roy's attacks had as much hitstun as Marth's, he'd probably be good.

I'm not quite sure about the aerials, but his tilts (except for Dtilt), at least, have significantly more endlag than Marth's, that much I know for sure. And it really sucks for trying to juggle with Utilt.

EDIT: clarity

 

[camerino1]

Not really. This exists.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nqtL5L7SdA4

I think the only non-smash that Roy takes longer on might be dash attack (because that move was already amazing)

 

[Veggiez]

Not really. This exists.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nqtL5L7SdA4

I think the only non-smash that Roy takes longer on might be dash attack (because that move was already amazing)

The video doesn't demonstrate 2-3 Utilts or 2-3 Ftilts in a row...that's where the lag is noticeable.

 

[darkoblivion12]

Roy

Marth​

Jab:
Total: 31

Total: 27​

Hit: 4-7

Hit: 4-7​

IASA: 26

IASA: 26​

F Tilt:
Total: 40

Total: 35​

Hit: 9-13

Hit: 7-10​

IASA: 40

IASA: ?​

D Tilt:
Total: 57

Total: 49​

Hit: 8-10

Hit: 7-9​

IASA: 20

IASA: 20​

U Tilt:
Total: 45

Total: 39​

Hit: 7-13

Hit: 6-12​

IASA: 40

IASA: 32​

Dash attack:
Total: 57

Total: 49​

Hit: 12-15

Hit: 12-15​

IASA: 40

IASA: 40​

F Smash:
Total: 57

Total: 49​

Hit: 12-14

Hit: 10-13​

Charge Frame: 3

Charge frame: 3​

IASA: 54

IASA: 48​

U Smash:
Total: 62

Total: 54​

Hit: 15-24

Hit: 13-16​

Charge Frame: 8

Charge frame: 7​

IASA: 46

IASA: 46​

D Smash:
Total: 74

Total: 64​

Hit: 6-8, 23-25

Hit: 5-7, 20-22​

Charge Frame: 3

Charge frame: 3​

IASA: 72

IASA: 62​

N-Air:
Total: 57

Total: 49​

Hit: 7-8, 17-20

Hit: 6-7, 15-21​

IASA: 50

IASA: ???​

Auto cancel: <6 32>

Auto cancel: <5 25>​

Landlag: 20

Landlag: 15​

Lcanceled: 10

Lcanceled: 7​

U-Air:
Total: 52

Total: 45​

Hit: 5-10

Hit: 5-8​

IASA: 49

IASA: ???​

Auto cancel: <4 30>

Auto cancel: <4 27>​

Landlag: 18

Landlag: 15​

Lcanceled: 9

Lcanceled: 7​

B-Air:
Total: 45

Total: 39​

Hit: 8-10

Hit: 7-11​

IASA: 43

IASA: 35​

Auto cancel: 34>

Auto cancel: 32>​

Landlag: 24

Landlag: 24​

Lcaceled: 12

Lcanceled: 12​

D-Air:
Total: 68

Total: 59​

Hit: 7-10

Hit: 6-9​

IASA: 64

IASA: ???​

Auto cancel: <6 55>

Auto cancel: <5 48>​

Landlag: 32

Landlag: 32​

Lcanceled: 16

Lcanceled: 16​

Hope this gives you an idea of the difference between all the moves. Some are significantly worse(nair) but some are a much closer match.

 

[Veggiez]

<snip>

Thanks so much for putting that together.

Not only does it settle our dispute, but it comes in handy to just say that "Roy is slower than Marth" even in terms of raw frame data.

 

[camerino1]

I didn't feel that much slower D:

I suppose that that's because of his SHFFL, but he is statistically more laggy. That's interesting. Why is Roy programmed so horribly?

Edit: After really looking at this I have a few points:
Where's F-air?
Our U-air might actually be better when talking frame-data (debatable though).
F-tilt is pretty well the same.
Jab is the same in terms of IASA.
D-tilt is the same idea.
U-tilt is just bad.
U-smash is actually really good in terms of frames for Roy.

 

[Veggiez]

I didn't feel that much slower D:

I suppose that that's because of his SHFFL, but he is statistically more laggy. That's interesting. Why is Roy programmed so horribly?

Edit: After really looking at this I have a few points:
Where's F-air?
Our U-air might actually be better when talking frame-data (debatable though).
F-tilt is pretty well the same.
Jab is the same in terms of IASA.
D-tilt is the same idea.
U-tilt is just bad.
U-smash is actually really good in terms of frames for Roy.

IMO, Utilt being bad is one of the reasons why I hate playing as Roy lol. The fact that he can't juggle without sweetspotted SHFFL or FH Uairs is pretty sad, and makes his ground game much less useful, because all he can do on the ground is Dtilt, Ftilt, DED, and Fsmash. Maybe Jab. His under-the-platform game is quite terrible because of it.

Basically, WHY UTILT, WHY DO YOU SUCK?

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

The biggest problem with Roy mains is that none of us are very good overall players. Unfortunately/Fortunately being bad/good at one character means you're bad/good with everyone because you're bad/good at smash.

Which is why I think its rare to find any one player who is amazing among the low tier players. Many might be good for their character, but it might not necessarily be because they are great players. They are just the best of anyone who plays them. Taj is really the only person I think who qualifies as a great player playing a low tier. Once he switched to marth, he saw even greater tournament success.

Yeah I agree that no amazing players (besides Sethlon) play Roy, because their talent is better used on Marth, that being said, f*** Marth, I had a fun break, back to OUR BOY (and Zelda)

Perhaps because everyone else tries to use Roy's bad moves. CC dtilt strategy only!

Yep. Moves have more ending lag (Utilt, Ftilt, Uair, and Fair especially), Dair spike is highly unreliable/risky, less room to space, lower jump, worst recovery...ever.

Damn, why am I even playing Roy?

Fire.

His recovery isn't bad his falling speed is what makes it **** lol

Its good and bad. Bad in the sense that its easier to attack him to higher percents longer. Good with longer crouch canceling. Worse recovery too. Less air time.

Edit: His recovery is quite nice, I find. It covers more horizontal than Marth's, and vertical isn't that bad. It really is just that he was designed with an awful weight/fall speed/size thing. Sakurai wanted Roy to be bad, I swear

He cannot stall as much as Marth can which is usually benefical from what I have found. Also, I think Roy was a late addition who didn't see much checking in late production.

Frame-ie stuff
Hope this gives you an idea of the difference between all the moves. Some are significantly worse(nair) but some are a much closer match.

Some moves are just down right WTF. Like his counter and dash attack are atrocious and look like mistakes. Marth's counters a full 24 frames while Roy's is only 12 frames. And his dash attack hitbox ends before the sword is full extended while Marth's fixes this.

 

[camerino1]

I know, it was more of a statement than anything. He was the last added character, Pichu being second last. It's clear that they weren't tested much

 

[odinNJ]

Nah, they added roy and marth last, didnt test either of them very much.
Marth ended up super broken,
Roy ended up super bad.

This is the only explanation I can think of, kind of like Oni in ssf4ae.

 

[darkoblivion12]

So I've been thinking about how good our ftilt is. It stays out longer than marth's and is a good edge guarding tool for spacies' illusion. It also has a huge arc in front of Roy that seems fairly safe. I've been using it more recently and been having greater success.

 

[Veggiez]

So I've been thinking about how good our ftilt is. It stays out longer than marth's and is a good edge guarding tool for spacies' illusion. It also has a huge arc in front of Roy that seems fairly safe. I've been using it more recently and been having greater success.

Yeah, it has a very nice hitbox range, and even a tipper is somewhat safe to get out of. It also has good knockback that can be used a a quicker, dumbed-down Fsmash. I still prefer Flareblade to it most of the time for edgeguarding, though, even for illusion.

 

[darkoblivion12]

The other thing about ftilt is that it starts low and ends high, as compared to flare blade which start high and ends low.

 

[camerino1]

I'm pretty sure it's Roy's only attack that does that. Besides U-smash, but who's using that for edge-guarding? (I suppose you could, technically. The spike is possible...)

 

[darkoblivion12]

Usmash combos into other things, and it makes people do stupid **** when you charge it at the edge. Also ftilt hits on 9 while usmash hits on 15

 

[camerino1]

U-smash combos into f-smash if they DI out of it. It's pretty fun getting the off on people, especially when they're near the ledge.

 

[darkoblivion12]

Actually, you gave me a good idea. Gunna test it out next time I play.

On a cpu fox, usmash if DI'd forward or back <~50% will combo into fsmash.
~60% utilt combos into things.

 

[Roysourboy666]

Let's keep this @LIVE !!!! Never give up !!! Time to predict some Tech.Rolls ! HAyPE!!!!

 

[camerino1]

I've been trying to incorporate tech chasing a lot more into my game lately, because it's really Roy's best hope at getting that damage in.

 

[ElloEddy]

Hey there Roy mains. I'm a brawler coming to melee because my local scene is very melee heavy and I think it's just a more intense game. My question is I love Roy more than anything, but he's not that great. Is it possible to make him tourny viable or should I just pick up someone like marth, shiek, etc? Anything you could tell me or discuss with me to help me get better with Roy would be greatly appreciated.

learn marth..then learn roy ....its pretty much the same except you cant really do air combos but once you learn to tech chase roy is pretty good idk why ppl say he's bad =/

 

[I R MarF]

Roy is bad because he has a laundry list of weaknesses which compound each other. He has weak moves made worse by terrible cooldown made worse by a vulnerability to punishes/combos made worse, still, by undoubtedly the worst recovery in the game.

However, he has got a good DD, WD, SHFFL, grab range, and disjointed hitboxes. You just have to accept the fact that a solid portion of his moveset is useless and you'll have to abuse dtilt and side-b.

He isn't as bad as the tier list makes him out to be though. I'd say he is actually around DK level

 

[Ripple]

Roy is not even close to around DK. he should be in the bottom 6.

 

[Roysourboy666]

Nevermind those facts, TRY WITH ALL YOUR MIGHT!!! WRECK THE SH*T OUT OF THEIR DOWN-AIRZ WITH OUR COUNTER !! USE HAYPE AS A MINDSET !

 

[camerino1]

I think it's because Marth is just that much better. Roy would be played more, if Marth wasn't around, doing pretty much the same thing but better.

Edit: I think that Roy doesn't have the worst recovery in the game. Doc and Ness probably have worse. Luigi's is pretty bad too. So something like Luigi = Roy > Ness > Doc.

 

[I R MarF]

Now that you mention it, Ness is easily the worst. Can't defend himself (even during his own 2nd jump to prevent DJCing) and PKT2 can't ride walls

However, I would still say Roy is 2nd worse with Doc being 3rd. Roy's up-b and DED are definitely more flexible than Doc's counterparts, but Doc has a better ledge grab range, double jump, and he can defend himself with pills. Doc is also floatier which allows him to cover more distance naturally. The overall superiority isn't great, but i'd argue that it's there.

I also agree that Marth is easily the greatest set back to Roy's development. Roy has a better Shffl, Side-b, and his dtilt is more ideal for combos, but Marth is superior to him in pretty much every other way. Which kind of sucks because Roy is a cool character

 

[ChivalRuse]

Roy's shffl is better in terms of being faster, but it's inferior to Marth's because he has no good aerials to use for it. LOL

 

[camerino1]

I've always kinda thought that if Roy had Marth's aerials, Roy would be top-tier. Why was he programmed so horribly? ;-;

 

[Roysourboy666]

For us to accept the challenge , the challenge TO PICK ROY !!!! (btw I really dont play any other characters beside Roy, no cheating !!! LOL)
I've always thought that Roy , was like a Goku with the heavy training vest, without the ability to transform in SSJ , but STILL ROCKS IN KAIOKEN MODE!!!!!!!!!

 

[camerino1]

I play YLink when I play against Peach and Samus. It's a much fairer match. Other than that, I'll stay Roy pretty much all the time, unless someone askes for my YLink to come out. I think that if I only play these two, I can actually get around most MU's without a whole lot of difficulty. The only one I can see being a problem is a grabby Sheik/Ganon. Does YLink have the edge against Ganon though? I could see it being the case that it's not a horrible match, because YLink has good projectiles to keep that t-rex grab away.

 

[I R MarF]

I can only speculate, but I'd say the Ganon/YLink Match Up is 45-55 (Ganon). Ganon's got the advantage due to having a MUCH easier time in terms of killing, but Ylink could definitely outmanuever him and use projectiles to punish whiffs. For defense, I'd abuse YLink's zoning game and try as hard as I can to not let Ganon control too much stage. And for offense, I would try to get under Ganon and use uairs since that should outprioritize anything Ganon could think to do. Dsmash edgeguards would also work well since Ganon can't sweetspot with up-b.

On a side note, I heard somewhere that Link/Ganon is actually 50-50 lol. Since you play Young Link, learning adult Link wouldn't take long at all. I imagine the match up would be played quite similiarly to Ganon/Young Link, but Link would have an easier time killing and Up-B OoS could be used to punish Ganon's attacks.

 

[darkoblivion12]

I 4 stocked a samus yesterday.
On a completely unrelated note: my penis is quite large.

 

[camerino1]

I'm being beaten by Marth's f-smash. Help. My pride is dying. I played against my friend a couple of days ago, and he hardly ever plays. For some reason though, I had a hard time with him in a few matches. I 4-stocked him twice, but he beat me twice as well, and it's reeeeeeally bothering me. I guess most of it is just me having to adapt to situations I'm thrown into. I know I'm better than him, but I just... couldn't beat him those 2 games. Everything I tried backfired. But then those other games, I was getting 0-death's on him. I'm just so lost as to how this happens...