The New MaTcHuP ChArT

[ballin4life]

theory: if two players are of even skill than Fox is better than Pika against Samus. But if the Samus player is better than Pika will be better for the worse player because Fox has low margin for error so it is easier to get roflstomped. Whereas Pika has super high margin for error and your mistakes don't get punished as hard, so you do more overall damage by attrition.

 

[mixa]

all I could think when reading this was you correcting battlecow's use of commas

 

[rawrimamonster]

I can see fox falling a spot or even two honestly. his potential is undeniable but his recovery is gonna hold most players back. depends on how good people get at gimping.

 

[The Star King]

theory: if two players are of even skill than Fox is better than Pika against Samus. But if the Samus player is better than Pika will be better for the worse player because Fox has low margin for error so it is easier to get roflstomped. Whereas Pika has super high margin for error and your mistakes don't get punished as hard, so you do more overall damage by attrition.

sounds plausible

all I could think when reading this was you correcting battlecow's use of commas

jabs at Battlecow are always OK, no matter how hypocritical

 

[#HBC | ѕoup]

i can't bring it to myself to constantly spam lasers as i feel bad for my opponent and it makes me feel cheap therefore in my completely unbiased opinion

15:90

 

[M!nt]

15:90 huh

sounds good

 

[#HBC | ѕoup]

fox is still > falcon
c:

Digging this up because I might as well make an actual post instead of just thinly-veiled sarcasm. I don't understand how Fox > Falcon and I feel Falcon gets proportional boost considering Fox has less room to run away from falcon and the fact DL's platforms help falcon a lot more than fox, without implying that it doesn't help fox a little either. There's also the fact that Fox is easily gimpable considering his average recovery and Falcon can easily and edge guard him. I don't really understand why you feel he's greater than Falcon on DL without considering this.

Edit: I honestly hate MUs because they involve a great amount of bias when discussing characters considering there's a factor of determining how you're looking at match-up compared to high-level play and average play.

I also hate that MUs inevitably become worthless and only the biggest nerds actually consider MUs on the perspective of everything*

 

[clubbadubba]

matchups are everything what are you talking about

 

[#HBC | ѕoup]

maybe for a big nerd like you

 

[clubbadubba]

#DON'TBULLYMEBRO

 

[KoRoBeNiKi]

why are you in a matchup thread saying that you hate matchups?

 

[M!nt]

Digging this up because I might as well make an actual post instead of just thinly-veiled sarcasm. I don't understand how Fox > Falcon and I feel Falcon gets proportional boost considering Fox has less room to run away from falcon and the fact DL's platforms help falcon a lot more than fox, without implying that it doesn't help fox a little either. There's also the fact that Fox is easily gimpable considering his average recovery and Falcon can easily and edge guard him. I don't really understand why you feel he's greater than Falcon on DL without considering this.

I think that fox is still better than falcon because I think he is still a better character with more potential. Falcon and fox both get gimped on dreamland so i don't see why his recovery lowers his placement and falcon (debatably)equally bad recovery gets him higher placement. Yeah i agree falcon gets boosts, but I still don't think these boosts make him better than fox.

 

[Mr Bushido]

Yes, MUs are very subjective and thats why I ask for multiple inputs, to either come to a consensus or average a number.


After mucho reflection,

40:60
60:40
70:30
60:40
65:35

What do yall nigras think of these numbers?

 

[stylisland]

I think Is 65:35
It's hard to approach a campy kirby and he can just duck under your lasers and wait with Dtilt or Pivot Fsmash.Your best bet I feel is platform camping and trying to get above Kirby in the air and you still have to wait until you get him to 40% or so to get aerials to have some hitstun for combos. While a Kirby can just play super lame and just wait Utiltx3 to Bair chain, or Bair to spike. Fox can pull of a win but I feel like it's a lot of work for a Fox compared to how much a Kirby really has to work to get a win.

 

[Combo Blaze]

yeah samus vs fox is bad, one of the reasons I swapped out of samus was cus knite pwned me hard ez with that match up

jajajajajaja

 

[Mr Bushido]

^ Current MU chart. Comments/thoughts/concerns?

 

[asianaussie]

if it's DL only, i feel falcon and kirby **** link harder than merely 60:40, and it's possibly slight jiggs advantage in that matchup

luigi sux

 

[KoRoBeNiKi]

if it's DL only, i feel falcon and kirby **** link harder than merely 60:40, and it's possibly slight jiggs advantage in that matchup

luigi sux

How I would put it is:
This is the matchup chart for all stages (with Hyrule being the main stage)
Aka: we can now make a matchup chart for a DL only ruleset

 

[Mr Bushido]

How I would put it is:
This is the matchup chart for all stages (with Hyrule being the main stage)
Aka: we can now make a matchup chart for a DL only ruleset

Predominantly DL*

My thoughts:
Jiggs is underrated in many MUs e.g. V Fox (watch Boom vs Han Solo or Boom vs Sensei)
Mario is overrated in many MUs e.g. v Kirby
Samus is underrated in certain MUs e.g. v Jiggs is more than 50 and vs Ness more than 40
Yoshi's MUs are inexact for the most part (I think Link = or > Yoshi) + we just had a whole conversation about how he's better than Mario against high tiers
And a bunch of other fallacies scattered across the chart

 

[M!nt]

I think Link = or > Yoshi

lol what? i'm TERRIBLE vs link and even I don't think that.

agree with rest, maybe not the samus one tho idk

 

[asianaussie]

link > yoshi on hyrule

on DL you could make a case for it being even, but i wouldnt give him the advantage

 

[M!nt]

no

 

[Mr Bushido]

lol what? i'm TERRIBLE vs link and even I don't think that.

exactly you ****ing suck and thats why I'm not considering your opinion now **** off

 

[weedwack]

Those ness matchups are pretty inaccurate.

Most noticeably, ness has a much easier time against falcon and fox than he does against Kirby, especially on DL. Ness can gimp falcon and fox pretty hard with his throw, but struggles tremendously edge guarding Kirby. I would say 40:60 for ness fox and ness falcon, and 30:70 for ness Kirby.

 

[The Star King]

Yoshi is at worst 60:40 vs Link on DL dunno what you're talking about. He punishes so much harder, and Link has a hard time getting away from Yoshi chasing him with such little stage and high speed opponent. Why would it be even/Link advantage?

I'll agree with what you said about Samus though.

Mr Bushido being such a hypocrite about not backing up his opinion it's incredible

 

[Mr Bushido]

Yoshi is at worst 60:40 vs Link on DL dunno what you're talking about

Mr Bushido being such a hypocrite about not backing up his opinion it's incredible

I was quickly skimming through points you fgt


But if you want:

Link's primary disadvantage is his recovery. Yoshi isn't particularly good at gimping (outside low % combos) because of his below-average edgeguard game
Link's hookshot (or any tether grab for that matter) can easily edgeguard Yoshi
Yoshi's DJ armour completely dies at higher %s after getting hit by many of Link's attacks e.g. Fair, Uair, Dair, Fsmash, Dsmash, Ftilt

There's a reason Sheer never wants to play his Yoshi vs Link

I'll give Yoshi vs Link 45:55 on DL


What are YOUR arguments THE STAR KING???

 

[SheerMadness]

Link is just annoying that's why I dislike playing vs him (with any char). Not that it's a hard match up.

I'd have to say it's 60:40 Yoshi also.

SORRY Z.

 

[Mr Bushido]

Whatever Sheer.


Dear Dirk King :

I believe you are a slightly better player than I. You main Yoshi, while Link is one of my secondaries.

If we were to play a Bo5 set on Dreamland and my Link won, it would pretty much guarantee Link is better in that respective MU.

Therefore, I challenge you. Please contact me on Skype this week (I can play on Thursday night or Friday PM).

[collapse=PS]I'm gonna **** your **** up[/collapse]

 

[asianaussie]

sheer posted exactly what i expected him to, because link is a ******

nobody ever enjoys playing vs link

i approve of dirk king being used

 

[Cobrevolution]

I believe you are a slightly better player than I. You main Yoshi, while Link is one of my secondaries.

If we were to play a Bo5 set on Dreamland and my Link won, it would pretty much guarantee Link is better in that respective MU.

sorta like how jaime beat kefit's pika with samus, so samus is better in that respective mu?

 

[M!nt]

exactly you ****ing suck and thats why I'm not considering your opinion now **** off

:C

 

[Mr Bushido]

sorta like how jaime beat kefit's pika with samus, so samus is better in that respective mu?

I've never played Kefit but I'm pretty sure JaimeHR is the better player so that argument is invalid.

Also both of them used their mains. SK (the better player) is gonna use his main against one of my secondaries (the one that's also supposedly disadvantaged). You're comparing two completely different contexts.

 

[asianaussie]

i think he just doesnt want to play vs link a bunch of times

 

[The Star King]

I was quickly skimming through points you fgt


But if you want:

Link's primary disadvantage is his recovery. Yoshi isn't particularly good at gimping (outside low % combos) because of his below-average edgeguard game
Link's hookshot (or any tether grab for that matter) can easily edgeguard Yoshi
Yoshi's DJ armour completely dies at higher %s after getting hit by many of Link's attacks e.g. Fair, Uair, Dair, Fsmash, Dsmash, Ftilt

There's a reason Sheer never wants to play his Yoshi vs Link

I'll give Yoshi vs Link 45:55 on DL


What are YOUR arguments THE STAR KING???

read my edits

also I'll respond to your points

Yoshi has no problem edgeguarding Link. Weak reverse nair (or dair if low %) alone destroys it (might sound like a weird choice to people haven't played me, but uh, play me and you'll see what I mean). Or edgehog -> force landing -> get up and punish (utilt/grab/ledgehop fair).

Hookshot is pretty good yeah but I don't think that outweighs Yoshi's advantages. Even with this point I don't think Link has advantage in edgeguarding.

You could say that high % Yoshi armor thing about any Yoshi matchup.

What Sheer said. Anyway personal preference means little. I could just as easily say "there's a reason I enjoy playing against Link with Yoshi". Which I do.

Whatever Sheer.


Dear Dirk King :

I believe you are a slightly better player than I. You main Yoshi, while Link is one of my secondaries.

If we were to play a Bo5 set on Dreamland and my Link won, it would pretty much guarantee Link is better in that respective MU.

Therefore, I challenge you. Please contact me on Skype this week (I can play on Thursday night or Friday PM).

[collapse=PS]I'm gonna **** your **** up[/collapse]

Lol OK I can definitely respect a challenge over the MU chart. That's what I like to see. I accept.

Thanks for giving me some time to derust. Since I have literally not touched online Smash since August. I'm busy on Thursday but Friday is probably good.

BTW, last time someone challenged me over the MU chart was Battlecow about Luigi vs Puff (I was Puff), and he got 3 stocked, 3 stocked, 4 stocked (nearly JV 5, it was 4 stock 9%, I still have the .krecs). Prepare your body.

 

[Sedda]

A challenge over a MU dispute? How about if Keyboard King gets 3-0ed, he has to go to Apex

 

[The Star King]

Pretty sure people have made it clear I "have to go to Apex" regardless

 

[asianaussie]

how about we just hold the match at apex

no-show = forfeiting the argument

 

[Sedda]

so you're not going?

 

[M!nt]

how about star king just pwns zenyores link real quick

 

[The Star King]

this thread blowing up

I guess people like action more than theorycrafting

don't do this to me aa ;_;