The New MaTcHuP ChArT

[M!nt]

I agree with most of that except yoshi and mario
v 75:25
v 70:30

Mario is really easy for pikachu to juggle around, he's like the perfect weight for this. Mario also relies of going low and sweet spotting to make the most use of his up b recovery, which makes him an easy target for a pikachu gimp.

I think pikachu is yoshi's worst matchup. Pikachus throws are a nightmare for yoshi and he also has like the best attacks to gimp yoshi with. One failed djc approach and you can get combo'd off the ledge from pretty much anywhere.

Actually
v 50:50
now that I think about it, both can pwn each other pretty easily, I don't think pikachu has an advantage.

 

[clubbadubba]

Z change the topic to say pikachu MU's so people will focus on that.

Pikachu matchups:

57:43
65:35
50:50
60:40
65:35
55:45
60:40
65:35
60:40
70:30
75:25

 

[M!nt]

lol 57:43

why not 57.542:43.214

 

[ballin4life]

I think pikachu is yoshi's worst matchup. Pikachus throws are a nightmare for yoshi and he also has like the best attacks to gimp yoshi with. One failed djc approach and you can get combo'd off the ledge from pretty much anywhere.

how are pika's throws any more of a nightmare for yoshi than any other character's throws? also pika is not that good at comboing IMO.

 

[Mr Bushido]

57:43

I assume you did this because you are unsure if 60:40 or 55:45
And mint, 57.542 rounds up to 58. This is why I can only trust clubba with math on these boards.

65:35

I was just thinking about this. 60:40 makes more sense for Kirby v Fox. Pika does better vs Fox than Kirby because of its better grabs.

65:35

I still feel like this one is more like 60:40. I've had very good experience against Pika using Mario, he was my first character of choice when i vs'd sextc and won 2-0

55:45

nahhhhhhh

60:40

Oh hell no
Since when is DK good against non-heavies?

65:35

I agree with this, or even 60:40. If you watch Jaime vs. Kefit or Cobrevolution vs Greginator you'll find Samus has a pretty good shot at this (lolpun).

70:30
75:25

I think 70:30 for both of them. Link doesn't actually do that bad vs Pika because his UpB can intercept many of Pika's moves if it tries to gimp him. PK thunder takes two years to charge so I feel like they both do equally as bad against Pika.

 

[M!nt]

And mint, 57.542 rounds up to 58. This is why I can only trust clubba with math on these boards.

Who said I was rounding? it was a joke.

I think 70:30 for both of them. Link doesn't actually do that bad vs Pika because his UpB can intercept many of Pika's moves if it tries to gimp him. PK thunder takes two years to charge so I feel like they both do equally as bad against Pika.

wtf maybe i'm just overstating the numbers but i would put them at like 80:20 or something similar lol

55:45 is ridiculous, way easier than that for pikachu.

how are pika's throws any more of a nightmare for yoshi than any other character's throws? also pika is not that good at comboing IMO.

pikachu is not good at comboing? do you mean like in any matchup? well grabs in general are yoshi's nightmare, but pikachu's in particular just because of how good they are.

 

[Olikus]

is it DL only or DL, congo, peach? If its DL only I can buy 50/50 vs falcon but pika raaapes falcon on peach. So all stages pika>falcon

 

[clubbadubba]

mine is for DL only.

Yea kirby couldn't decide.

I think mario sucks, prolly why I rate him lower than the average in most matchups.

I like puff vs pika. Pika has a great neutral game vs puff but puffs punish's waaaaaay harder. Puff has a decent chances of recovery vs pika compared to the rest of the cast, and if played correctly puff shouldn't have to worry much about edgeguarding pika since it should be 0 to deaths, not 0 to edgeguards. I do think pika's neutral game outweighs puff's punishes, but not by much. Sue me.

I think dk is better vs pikachu than samus and fox, but worse than kirby or puff or falcon. 60:40 is where that lands for me. And I wouldn't call that good lol, just not horrendous. I could be swayed to 62:38, not a point more.

Those samuses did well against players that did not know how to play the matchup. At high level with players who know what they're doing its not as plausible.

Ness and link they both get roflstomped, I just think ness does a tad better.

Wait fox is better vs pikachu than dk. DK to 62:38, fox to 60:40

 

[Cobrevolution]

Those samuses did well against players that did not know how to play the matchup. At high level with players who know what they're doing its not as plausible.

true to an extent. we always seem to come back to jousuke, but it's much easier for a b tier pika to beat an a tier samus than vice versa. i'd give it 75-25, with fox/bby being 80-20.

 

[The Star King]

Yoshi is better vs Pikachu than Mario

how are pika's throws any more of a nightmare for yoshi than any other character's throws? also pika is not that good at comboing IMO.

Pika can fthrow-> fthrow -> fthrow yoshi. Also if you know how to edgeguard Yoshi but I don't feel like explaining that

but I wouldn't say it's worse for Yoshi than other chars becaue his recovery pre good

 

[Mr Bushido]

So is it generally acknowledged that Yoshi does better than Mario vs top tiers? I still feel like it's the other way around.

40:60
45:55
60:40
45:55

40:60
40:60
45:55
40:60

Someone tell me where i got it wrong

Who said I was rounding? it was a joke.

Haha you're right

 

[Fireblaster]

30:70
30:70
40:60
40:60

40:60
40:60
30:70
40:60

Yoshi does a bit better than mario against high tiers.

 

[M!nt]

I like the 45:55 for falcon and yoshi that makes me happy c: (I think it's pretty even too)

Mario and fox however I'm not sure sometimes i think it's even and then other times I think fox has a huge advantage O.o

WOW and then fireblaster has to ruin it 30:70? you're crazy.

 

[Fireblaster]

Falcon is faster than yoshi. In order for yoshi to play footsies against falcon, he has to DJC and risk getting gimped just because of random usmashes. If yoshi doesn't DJC, he cannot keep up in footsies at all and essentially has to guess a 50/50 mixup of grab vs usmash from falcon

 

[M!nt]

You can bait the up smashes pretty easily and counter. As long as you're not djcing like crazy(which sheer says I do, but I don't think i do it anymore) than it shouldn't be a problem.

 

[The Star King]

Yeah I agree with Fireblaster's Mario numbers but I would say Falcon is like 60:40 on Yoshi. I would also say Fox is easier than the others for Yoshi, like 55:45. IDK about Kirby, I have far less experience vs him than the others.

 

[M!nt]

yuck I hate fox-yoshi terrible matchup for yoshi at least imo.

I don't see why it's even 60:40, Yoshi and falcon can combo each other really hard and I don't see how it's that much different from pika-falcon. his upair chain can't happen that long when yoshi is at low percent and in general I think falcon has a hard time.

kirby-yoshi is pretty funny, kirby can't dair yoshi which makes him somewhat hard to kill. bair and uptilt still work prefect though i'd say 60:40. not really sure though cause like noone plays kirby except random people who arent that good and then like boom :/

 

[Mr Bushido]

30:70
30:70
40:60
40:60

40:60
40:60
30:70
40:60

Yoshi does a bit better than mario against high tiers.

I have a hard time taking some of these numbers seriously even though you main Mario and Yoshi.

30:70 is a hard counter, something reserved for the likes of Jiggs vs Luigi or Falcon vs Kirby lol

30 is just unreasonable, Mario is definitely one of the better characters vs Pika/Kirby.

 

[The Star King]

Luigi does not hard counter Puff fatty

 

[Mr Bushido]

**** off star ****

 

[KeroKeroppi]

You're crazy, Zenyore.

 

[mixa]

How about dittos? They never get discussed. We could have a how leveraged are the dittos list.
For example -- and this is a concept everyone is familiar with -- how risky is a Falcon ditto compared to a Link ditto? Clearly Falcon dittos are more messed up: the combos, set-ups, finishers, are all easier to do; punishing is easier; you'd probably beat a better player at a Falcon ditto than at a Link ditto; "anything can happen", etc.

I actually don't have an opinion on this besides the one I just stated. How do you feel about Pika dittos?

 

[Fireblaster]

Talking about mirror matchups is pointless in a matchup thread.

 

[Sangoku]

I thought everybody agreed to drop out the x:y notation and would use +/-n. Ironically this only shows how these matchup debates never progress.

 

[clubbadubba]

mario vs anybody is like 10:90 or -20 or whatever

 

[mixa]

Talking about dittos is pointless in a matchup thread

you got me there. good thing the rest of the thread is not.

 

[KoRoBeNiKi]

oh they can
and they will
until the end of time

Yes we will
forever
and ever

 

[Annex]

So who actually cares about tiers and why? I mean MU charts give you a good idea of who to use to counter an opponents char but tiers seem to be just for arguing.

 

[Mr Bushido]

So who actually cares about tiers and why? I mean MU charts give you a good idea of who to use to counter an opponents char but tiers seem to be just for arguing.

Tiers are the product of matchup data, meaning the placement of tiers is based on the average performance of characters in their overall match ups.

No matchup chart = no tier list and vice-versa

I speak for myself when I say that I don't care about tier lists but the other two Smash games have them (soon three with ssb4) and we are the only ones with such an outdated one.

 

[mixa]

So who actually cares about tiers and why?

same reason we care if online player X really belongs in the A tier, gotta rank stuff around you like there's no tomorrow.

I mean MU charts give you a good idea of who to use to counter an opponents char

no, because smash isn't pokémon and you can't pick one character vs the other because the chart says it's good for you.

say the stage is DL, and you'll pick your character vs falcon. if you don't know already that kirby is a ~good option, then the chart telling you it is won't do anything. because if you didn't know that already, that means you don't have that MU experience. if you don't have the MU experience, the chart doesn't represent you, it represents a better future you, at most.

on the other hand, if you have the same situation but are an experienced player, the chart telling you kirby is a good option is meaningless because you already know what that talk is about, but more importantly you already know how your kirby does against falcon, which is what really matters. and on a more advanced level, how your current kirby does against that falcon.

past a certain skill level, the charts are mostly useless because it's a collective reflexive exercise and you already have your own personal chart. in the best&rare-case scenario, you having a harder time in a match-up compared to what the chart says will open your eyes and fuel your humble spirit to try to understand and get better at the mu - but hey, if this happens, don't bother looking at the thread which generated that chart.

 

[ballin4life]

pikachu is not good at comboing? do you mean like in any matchup? well grabs in general are yoshi's nightmare, but pikachu's in particular just because of how good they are.

To be more specific: it is much more difficult to start a combo as pika compared to Kirby (utilt, aerial -> utilt), Falcon (usmash/grab/uair), Fox (aerial -> dtilt, uair), Yoshi (nair, fair, utilt), Ness (utilt, uair, dair), etc

Pika's main combo starters are utilt (not as good for this as some other utilts, can't really be done off an aerial so it's more difficult to hit with), maybe usmash (risky), and aerials into an aerial chain (situational).

Basically, if you watch a bunch of matches you will see fewer combos from Pika than you will from the above characters (especially Falcon of course ). It's not that Pika combos never happen, I'd just say Pika is more of a gimp character than a combo character.

Yoshi is better vs Pikachu than Mario



Pika can fthrow-> fthrow -> fthrow yoshi. Also if you know how to edgeguard Yoshi but I don't feel like explaining that

but I wouldn't say it's worse for Yoshi than other chars becaue his recovery pre good

can only get two fthrows on Yoshi on dreamland, right, as it is too small? anyway, Yoshi can actually get back somewhat against PIka and his grab. I'd fear the Pika grab way more as Falcon or Fox.

 

[Mr Bushido]

IMO:
For Pika, the hardest is , then , / (not sure), and for the high tiers
For Kirby, it's , then , , and

Yoshi's DJ Armour is a key factor as it will prevent him from being gimped by Pika as easily as Fox/Falcon (Mario is still kinda hard to edge guard)

Mario is better against Kirby because he isn't as heavy = doesn't get chained into utilt as easily
Though Yoshi's DJ Armour will allow his midair jump to completely evade the chain unlike the other heavies who'll just get their jump eaten

Comments/thoughts/concerns?

EDIT: New NoTaTioN

>>> Large Advantage (or 3+, etc)
>> Advantage
> Slight advantage
= Even / Mirror Match
< Slight disadvantage
<< Disadvantage
<<< Large disadvantage

Thank You.

 

[KoRoBeNiKi]

Pikachu's 2nd hardest matchup outside of Kirby is Yoshi?

What? I am also surprised that anyone would think that Falcon is a worse matchup than Pikachu/Kirby on any stage vs yoshi.

<<
<
>
<

<<
<<
<
<

The main difference imo between Mario and Yoshi is said Falcon matchup, I think both of them do pretty bad vs. Kirby/Pikachu but one of them does a whole lot better vs Falcon. Also, I kinda agree that Mario-Kirby is a whole lot more even than Yoshi-Kirby.

 

[The Star King]

ur rong Koro

I don't understand how people think Mario vs Kirby is anywhere near even. It's very bad for Mario.

 

[SheerMadness]

40:60
35:65
45:55
45:55

Dems my opinions.

 

[Mr Bushido]

ur rong Koro

I don't understand how people think Mario vs Kirby is anywhere near even. It's very bad for Mario.

Yes please do give your opinion without providing any arguments

You cocky prick

You know what

**** this ****

Here is the new indisputable tier list:
S:
A:
B:
C:

Thank you all and **** off

 

[Doomolish]

Yes please do give your opinion without providing any arguments

You cocky prick

You know what

**** this ****

Here is the new indisputable tier list:
S:
A:
B:
C:

Thank you all and **** off

I think we should vote like Melee did and make a tier list. Just a few of us write here nowadays.

 

[KoRoBeNiKi]

Yes please do give your opinion without providing any arguments

You cocky prick

You know what

**** this ****

Here is the new indisputable tier list:
S:
A:
B:
C:

Thank you all and **** off

the funny thing is, i agree with this, if ness and luigi are switched

 

[Mr Bushido]

I think we should vote like Melee did and make a tier list. Just a few of us write here nowadays.

http://smashboards.com/threads/official-bbrs-community-tier-list-voting.335206/


For this list, all that people have done are list their tier lists (KIND OF LIKE IN THIS THREAD), which is pretty unreliable.

Unless we can create some poll on a website for people to vote on MUs (I dun think the SWF polls can do for something this elaborate), then we could do this.

 

[The Star King]

Yes please do give your opinion without providing any arguments

You cocky prick

You know what

**** this ****

Here is the new indisputable tier list:
S:
A:
B:
C:

Thank you all and **** off

lol. You can ask me nicely to provide arguments and I will. Koro didn't, so I didn't in response. Funny that you only call me out on it. No tears.