The New MaTcHuP ChArT

[Mr Bushido]

Well, with the evolution of the MeTaGaMe and the banning of Hyrule, a new tier list is long overdue.

I'm not a huge fan of tier lists, but can someone honestly look at the current one and not want to punch a West Black Rhino?

Here are some of my thoughts on the current MeTaGaMe
*Samus isn't that bad (good projectile, good recovery, floaty = hard to combo, heavy = hard to KO, but overall performance depends on getting good reads)
*Luigi isn't that bad and 80:20's Jiggs btw
*Link regains his rock bottom spot
*Ness is still garbage
*DK is not a viable char wtf is he doing in the midlows
*Flacno > Fox
*Yoshi is easier to gimp, edgeguard and combo than Mario but has all these secret techniques like parrying, double jump armour and Komo Combo. WHICH ONE IS BETTER???
*Jigglypuff is a weird char that really doesn't fit anywhere on the list

 

[¨°PÞ-§°¨ Bane]

in my weird opinion:

for OFFLINE:

pika
fox
kirby
falcon
mario
yoshi
jiggs
luigi
dk
samus
ness
link

 

[Mr Bushido]

Fox is a unique case, the same as Melee Fox. There is a wide plateau of technical skill that needs to be mastered in order for him to be on-par with the other three top tiers (Rat, Kirby and Flacno). That said, the MU chart takes in consideration all players are equally skilled. If the players are "average pros", then Fox doesn't truly match them. It's at top professional level where this can be seen (e.g. Isai's Fox v Gerson's Rat).

Making sure this doesn't turn into a slippery slope where "TAS Ness > any TAS character, therefore Ness is top tier" hopefully won't be an issue.

Overall, the placement of Fox is debatable. He could potentially be second (maybe even first), but IMO right now, he sits at the fourth spot behind the three EZ-to-master top tiers.

 

[Annex]

Playing those low tiers for that permanent john insurance.
It's now impossible for me to actually lose.

 

[Han Solo]

Negatives for Fox:
Fox gets gimped by everyone at any percent.
Fox's moves have small hitstun against opponents at 0% - 15%ish (he doesn't have a move that is a good approach, has a lot of hitstun, and leads into lots of things like Pika's dair, Kirby's dair, Falcon's upsmash, Yoshi's DJC fair, etc.)
In a game dominated by grabs/throws, he has one of the worst.
Abysmal recovery (why can't Fox sweetspot the ledge like in Melee? Pika and Ness do it).

Positives for Fox:
Tail is nice and long and sexy.
Laser spam is pretty good against everyone that isn't Pika, Kirby, Falcon.
Uair is pretty good. Racks up damage early. Kills at later percents.
Bair is good for poking at airborne opponents.

 

[Sensei]

Fox played perfectly > any other character played perfectly

Except maybe pikachu lol

 

[M!nt]

Fox's moves have small hitstun against opponents at 0% - 15%ish (he doesn't have a move that is a good approach, has a lot of hitstun, and leads into lots of things like Pika's dair, Kirby's dair, Falcon's upsmash, Yoshi's DJC fair, etc..

wtf? almost all of fox's moves chain together. Also imo fair and bair are like the best approaches in the game.

I disagree with almost every point in your post zenyore lol

 

[Cobrevolution]

he doesn't have a move that is a good approach

b

 

[¨°PÞ-§°¨ Bane]

i really don't think it requires that much technical skill to take out the other three top tiers with fox, it just takes matchup knowledge that most people don't have. there's plenty of technical foxes that aren't that good

 

[Han Solo]

wtf? almost all of fox's moves chain together. Also imo fair and bair are like the best approaches in the game.

His moves don't chain at 0-15% is what I was getting at. If you fair or bair someone at 0% (or even uair sometimes), you're going to get grabbed, uptilted, upsmashed, aerial'd, etc. You can dair, but that's probably the easiest move in the game to DI. You can do something like falling strong-nair to dtilt, and that's really solid against a lot of characters, but it's not run-up-and-falcon-upsmash easy or kirby-uptilt easy or pika-dair-grab easy.

Cobr, laser is a good spacing move (and good spacing helps an approach), but it's not a good approach against anyone except maybe DK. And I wouldn't do it against DK either.

Bane, you can have all the matchup knowledge in the world, but that won't matter when Fox gets grabbed. Compared to everyone not named Ness or Link, Fox doesn't have many second chances.

 

[¨°PÞ-§°¨ Bane]

well the whole point of having matchup knowledge is to use fox's many pros to avoid getting grabbed.. that's kinda ignoring his incredibly good offensive game. e.g. it's not exactly easy to grab isai's fox

 

[asianaussie]

i played some 64 today

fox is broken

 

[thegreginator]

Assuming no Hyrule:

Pika
Kirby

Falcon Fox
Mario
Yoshi

Jiggs
Samus
DK

Luigi
Link
Ness

Samus really isn't that bad guys. Ness sucks. Even if you know how to use him.

 

[clubbadubba]

I like how the new matchup chart is just a tier list thread. Way to go mr bushido you blew it

 

[The Star King]

Matchup charts rarely get done because people can never come to a consensus. If you want to see it finished, you're gonna have to take some authority and have the final say based on the overall community opinion. And try to remain unbiased whole doing so. Oh, and set the current topic, since as you can see, people might not know what to talk about and will just post tier lists and ****.

I guess you kinda did set the topic by posting about Fox, though.

My 2 cents.

I disagree with a lot Han Solo says. Play a bottom 7 char dude (no that does not include Fox). You don't know what it's like if you think things like "Fox has no good approach".

 

[KoRoBeNiKi]

at the thing regarding fox not being able to do much before 15 percent, well, 2 lasers and fox has combos

 

[The Star King]

*Luigi isn't that bad and 80:20's Jiggs btw

how did I miss this

you're wrong and you suck and I hate you and you're fat

 

[KoRoBeNiKi]

outside of vs jiggs and perhaps samus, luigi is worse than ness

 

[Olikus]

Matchup charts rarely get done because people can never come to a consensus. If you want to see it finished, you're gonna have to take some authority and have the final say based on the overall community opinion. And try to remain unbiased whole doing so. Oh, and set the current topic, since as you can see, people might not know what to talk about and will just post tier lists and ****.

I guess you kinda did set the topic by posting about Fox, though.

My 2 cents.

I disagree with a lot Han Solo says. Play a bottom 7 char dude (no that does not include Fox). You don't know what it's like if you think things like "Fox has no good approach".

Hey now discussing this can lead to many nice things. Remember clubba made an account just to back up my point years ago? Sadly he has forgotten his purpose on joining smashboards. I blame the australian clown he now worships.

 

[The Star King]

What? I'm never said discussion is bad. In fact I kinda don't like when we're all throwing out MU ratios/tier lists without any discussion behind it.

There are reasons aa makes fun of you.

 

[clubbadubba]

Hey now discussing this can lead to many nice things. Remember clubba made an account just to back up my point years ago? Sadly he has forgotten his purpose on joining smashboards. I blame the australian clown he now worships.

wait i don't remember this show me please. stupid new smashboards i can't search for my old old posts.

also, back then all of my opinions were even less valid than they are now. I've grown.

 

[Olikus]

wait i don't remember this show me please. stupid new smashboards i can't search for my old old posts.

also, back then all of my opinions were even less valid than they are now. I've grown.

hmm ill try to find it. But i remember you made and account to back me up that falcon pika was a pretty even MU on DL. Everybody else said that pika pwned falcon on DL. LOL SUCH NOOBS!

 

[clubbadubba]

LOL dude for real. I still agree with you on that at least

 

[The Star King]

Are you sure? I'm pretty sure most people think it's at least somewhat close to even.

 

[clubbadubba]

well NOW they do because me and olikus set everyone straight. If Olikus is saying that's what I made an account for then this was back in like 2010-2011 range.

 

[Han Solo]

I didn't say "Fox has no good approach." I said "he doesn't have a move that is a good approach, has a lot of hitstun, and leads into lots of things like Pika's dair, Kirby's dair, Falcon's upsmash, Yoshi's DJC fair, etc." All of that should be taken as one thing. You didn't correct me on "[doesn't have] a lot of hitstun". Upsmash has a lot of hitstun, but (sorry Tank) it's not a good approach and doesn't combo.

My main point here is that Fox has to work really hard to get his kills. On the Fox side of any matchup you can say, "Use your matchup experience. Use Fox's speed to maneuver around. Use lasers to space them out and figure an approach. Know when moves have enough hitstun so you can follow up with something and not get punished. Get really good at 0 to deaths. Don't get hit or grabbed."

In the matchup against Fox, it's just "Grab Fox. Don't get hit or grabbed." I think that since it's harder to play Fox and he's so easy to kill, that makes him worse than the other top tiers. I'm not saying he's the worst in the game. Fox still has pretty good moves and movement. It's really hard to get kills with Luigi too, but Luigi doesn't have the tools Fox has, and that's why Luigi is terrible.

SK, what am I saying that you disagree with?

 

[The Star King]

I am on mobile atm, on which quoting and replying to a bunch of specific parts is a pain. I'll promise I'll do it when I'm free and at a computer though. Which means, like tomorrow probably.

For now I'll just commend the jab at TANK.

 

[Mr Bushido]

You guys ****ing suck

 

[M!nt]

fox is still > falcon
jigglypuff is still > luigi
yoshi is still > mario
samus is still bad
DK is good

c:

 

[The Star King]

like 3 people even play DK right so that's why he gets underrated, real talk

he's a hard character, but not in an obvious flashy way like Yoshi or whatever

 

[Sedda]

Matchup charts rarely get done because people can never come to a consensus. If you want to see it finished, you're gonna have to take some authority and have the final say based on the overall community opinion.

Nintendude bro where u at?

 

[B Link]

Should Fox drop below Falcon with the new ruleset? Personally, I don't know -- it seems like a tough call. But I don't feel like arguing about such a trivial issue anyway.

Should Fox drop below Mario/Yoshi etc.? Now THAT'S a different story. I'm obviously leaning towards nahh.

 

[Olikus]

Fox is better than mario and yoshi. Both with the old, and with the nintendude ruleset. Remember hyrule is only banned at Apex. It might be used at other tourneys. But hyrule or not. Fox has still the best pressure game of all caracthers.

 

[SheerMadness]

Fox definitely still above Mario and Yoshi.

Probably pretty even with Falcon now. Maybe a very slight edge to Falcon.

 

[ballin4life]

falcon is really good on congo IMO

fox is hard to play and has low margin for error. similar to ness in that respect.

hard to play tier list:
S
fox
ness

A
yoshi

B
link
samus
mario (you know why he's this high )
jigglypuff
luigi
DK

C
pika

D
kirby
falcon

 

[Sangoku]

My matchup chart:
S
Kirby
Pika

A
Mario
Falcon
Samus

B
Yoshi
Jiggly
Ness

C
Dk
Fox

D
Luigi
Link


XD

 

[Mr Bushido]

I don't need your spam in here Sangoku.

Current Rat vs high tiers MU
v 60:40
v 60:40
v 55:45
v 60:40
v 65:35

Arguments: (why it is / isn't true)
- Kirby has many quick and deadly moves that leave little room for punishment. Particularly useful against Pika due to its low weight, these include FSmash or Fthrow with the aid of a platform. Kirby also has his Dair, which is deadly against Pika's recovery especially if the latter recovers from below. However, (in LD's words,) "Kirby is the perfect ball for Pikachu to toss around". Rat keeps the advantage but imo this matchup is more even than one sided.
- Nothing changes here. This is still Fox's worst MU, even if he can space fairly well with laser. One grab from Pika here can signify a stock and if Fox has to use his UpB and doesn't have a significant altitude advantage over Pika he will practically lose a stock all the time.
- Pika is very easy to combo for Falcon. Even if Pika has an easy time edgeguarding Flacno, the latter can easily take a stock with just the hit of an UpSmash or Fthrow at low %s.
- Plummer's projectile is much superior to Pika's, even if it can dodge them fairly easily. This still gives Mario a considerable approach advantage to other characters in the game that have no or less reliable projectile options like Fox's laser which Pika can duck beneath. Mario also has one of the hardest recoveries in the game to edgeguard for Pika. His UpB has a forgiving timing and can trick Pikachu to the point where he can UpB before Pika's Fsmash or even wait for the Fsmash to complete its hitboxes animation before UpBing. In both of these scenarios, Pika will also generally get hit if it stands too close to the ledge.
- Yoshi has a relatively easy time getting gimps on the map's edges thanks to its dash > Fair or just its Fair in general. Yoshi can also counter a lot of Pika's moves with his Doublejump armour, including its Fsmash up until Kill %s.

Debatable:
v 55:45
v 60:40
v 50:50
v 55:45
v 60:40

 

[KoRoBeNiKi]

id format this but well lolphones
for DL only

pikachu
kirby
falcon/fox (Ill decide later)
mario
yoshi
dk
ness
jiggs
samus
Luigi
link

 

[Mr Bushido]

ROFL you can't seriously post a tier list if you don't have MU data behind it

Stop doing it you goofy pricks

 

[mixa]

oh they can
and they will
until the end of time