The New MaTcHuP ChArT

[M!nt]

yeah and he liked sheers list only post right before that

down with mr.bushido! new thread owner!!!

 

[Mr Bushido]

Because sheer didnt post any unpopular opinion, Mint

lol. You can ask me nicely to provide arguments and I will. Koro didn't, so I didn't in response. Funny that you only call me out on it. No tears.

Because Koro's opinion paralleled what I already said on those MUs

You seriously need to **** off if you think you can just say X > Y after someone provided arguments as to why they believe Y > X, which is exactly what you did on this thread's last page.

Edit: lol I sound like Fireblaster when he's angry. Real talk doe, yes give arguments to back your opinion. Shouldn't it be obvious x.x

 

[Pooncahontas]

Here is the new indisputable tier list:
S:
A:
B:
C:

Thank you all and **** off

I actually really like this tier list.

10/10

 

[The Star King]

Because sheer didnt post any unpopular opinion, Mint



Because Koro's opinion paralleled what I already said on those MUs

You seriously need to **** off if you think you can just say X > Y after someone provided arguments as to why they believe Y > X, which is exactly what you did on this thread's last page.

Edit: lol I sound like Fireblaster when he's angry. Real talk doe, yes give arguments to back your opinion. Shouldn't it be obvious x.x

You barely gave any arguments dude. Just one weaksauce line pointing out that Yoshi is heavier (as well as one line acknowledging Yoshi's double jump armor). Wow, incredible.

I didn't even notice it. So I thought I was responding to no arguments with no arguments.

Yes I will bother providing arguments when I'm disagreeing with someone, if they provide arguments in the first place. Which I thought nobody did. But fair enough, you provided one line in support of your side, so I will provide one line in support of mine:

Mario really struggles to approach Kirby's wall of bairs and utilts

There you go. Happy?

EDIT: To be clear, you gave one line supporting Mario is better vs Kirby. The Yoshi double jump line doesn't do that.

EDIT2: Also pretty sure Kirby pwning Mario isn't an unpopular opinion.

can only get two fthrows on Yoshi on dreamland, right, as it is too small?

Forgot to respond to this. If Pikachu gets a grab on Yoshi with his back against the Dreamland edge, most people will BThrow because that's the intuitive thing to do. But he can get 3 Fthrows from that position which is probably better. Dreamland has enough room in that case.

Battlecow has actually done the counter-intuitive thing and done triple FThrow to me. I bet he thinks he's cool.

 

[Cobrevolution]

:
40 : 60 - on dreamland, this is much closer than it would be on hyrule. as it stands, it's extremely difficult to approach link with samus - link suffers from fast grabs or quick combos that chain into edgeguard opportunities. samus has neither. she is also comboed extremely easily by link and he can edgeguard her fantastically well.

:
45 : 55 - this is not as terrible as some other mu's. you can really prevent a lot of ness's approaches with bairs and fsmashes, and with good di, you can escape the z2d's. not to mention how awesome upb is against ness's combos. of course, dair trap is a pain in the ass, and ness's controllable upb can be a bit of a hazard to a recovering samus. but samus has a very easy time edgeguarding ness with her shots. just shoot early and shoot often and try to snipe the ball as it comes out of ness's head. also fun fact that we discussed: if a ness psi-cancels the ledge and there is a charge shot behind him as the psi hitbox comes out, ness will absorb the ball but turn around, leaving him to fall very far, leading to an easy edgeguard.

:
35 : 65 - basically, whoever said samus is hard to combo is dumb. she dies off the top so damn early, and luigi can effortlessly kill her. i find it hard to space against luigi because she doesn't really have much to hit him with. he's also wonderful at edgeguarding her because he floats out there for the same amount of time as she does.it is now almost 5 am and these arguments are going to get progressively worse, bear with me.

:
40 : 60 - i really don't know this matchup that well, but i know it's DK favor because his grab can beat a ******** amount of samus's approaches. she can edgeguard him quite easily, though.

:
45 : 55 - i'd probably put ness as more even but whatever. samus can sorta combo puff with multiple bairs or fairs, but she gets dominated on the other end by jpuff's great combo game.

:
40 : 60 - you have to be so tricky when playing against yoshi because of the bull**** djc armor and the goddamn invincible head. again, z2d's aren't necessarily the issue here if you have good di; it's those other one or two hit combos that do the most damage (not literally). it's not exactly hard to edgeguard yoshi, it just requires patience. nair is better than bair i believe, and grab works as well, but charge shot seems to be pretty good too. the main goal for samus is to learn exactly how far yoshi's djc will bring him and punish accordingly.

:
35 : 65 - i put this on equal ground with luigi because mario's uair can lead to ample edgeguarding instead of a ko, but i'd wager mario's better at it than luigi vs samus. fireballs can really **** her up.

:
20 : 80 - uair and utilt are literally the only two moves a pikachu needs to beat a samus. it's embarrassing and the character should be banned. it's nigh impossible to edgeguard pikachu with samus, and spacing is immensely difficult because of the lack of options. the tail covers everything. what is she left with? sadness.

:
30 : 70 - alright. after watching jousuke/kikoushi, we've all reached the conclusion that platform camping is the way to beat a kirby. stay on top of him at all times, get his head vulnerable, trap him on plats, couple dairs. edgeguarding kirby face to face is a pain, but fair is better than people think in this situation (it's usually awful). with good di, you can get out of utilt within 1 or 2, but a good kirby will just follow you up in the air and set up an edgeguard. also not necessarily difficult to edgeguard samus with kirby. her best bet is to try and time the upb to parry whatever kirby is doing and hope the kirby doesn't di out and punish. a terrible mu, yes, but not really as awful as what's up next.

:
10 : 90 - i'm not exaggerating. fox's speed makes it entirely impossible for samus to approach. he can just run away and laser. if you try to approach with bair, the laser will turn you around, and you're stuck trying to fair, and fox is usually just below you, so you have to start fair early, and it has such ******** ending lag you'll always get uaired or jab usmashed. if you can actually manage to catch fox on a platform, you should be able to get him off the stage and go for a nair trade or something and try to edgeguard with bombs. but i am convinced this is her worst mu by far. there is simply no way to get in close enough to hit fox; he's always just barely out of reach.

:
25 : 75 - another character she can't catch, but at least she has an easier time doing damage and edgeguarding him. regardless, falcon can combo her easily, as long as you're smart about it. again, i don't understand who these maniacs are who think she's the most difficult to combo. more like she's the most difficult to combo in the conventional way (rising uair chains with falcon or 6 utilts with kirby or etc; you have to switch up the combo and style to **** her up).

hey, if anyone can give me advice on how to deal with these characters, i'd love to hear it.

 

[VVilde]

maybe u should try putting on ur big boy pants

 

[clubbadubba]

@MR BUSHIDO:

As far as mario vs kirby is concerned, I would look at Isai vs Kikoushi to show that pika/fox/kirby are all better vs kirby than mario is at the very least, even on dreamland.


@Cobr:
Falcon can easily uair chain samus what are you talking about lol? But yea cobr based on those matchups samus would be worst in the game by far, which doesn't seem to be the prevailing opinion anymore thanks to some japanese player playing a different game (a fact we forget all too often). I would say samus beats both ness and puff, and puff by a large margin.

Vs puff bair's are pretty beast. I think puff's best bet to win this matchup is to stay above samus to the point where only uair or up-b could connect. So as samus, stay horizontally even with or above jiggs and you get what you want. Jiggs combo game is not that strong vs samus, because off of grabs at mid percent she has nothing off of fthrow. I suppose if samus gets eager and tries to bair but jiggs waits and comes in from underneath after you might get in trouble, but I feel like that can be properly spaced so jiggs has no counterattack option.

Vs ness, idk get him off of the stage. Bair outranges his approaches, its just a matter of reaction if you can tell when he's gonna djc. And that's really his only legit approach option. You can also just stand behind a defensive down-b and now he just... can't get to you lol. Down-b and charge behind it, if you have a charge shot ness gotta be scared of it. But yea djc is pretty much all ness has, with ****ty horizontal range to go along with it. Bair, pivot fsmash, pivot grab, charge shot can all destroy that if zoned correctly.

Cobr specifically for you I think you always go in super duper hard and then pay for it if the approach doesn't connect. More mixups would help you in a lot of matchups. I can see if you go in hard on ness and puff like you do that would produce a lot more issues in the matchups. I'm not saying camp like a *****, but take advantage of things like ness not being able to approach safely.

 

[Olikus]

@MR BUSHIDO:

As far as mario vs kirby is concerned, I would look at Isai vs Kikoushi to show that pika/fox/kirby are all better vs kirby than mario is at the very least, even on dreamland.

Its a bad MU, but remember Isai played waaaaaaay to aggro. Only reason he did get sort of away with it was because he is a much better player than kikoushi. If he had been less aggressive and used more fireballs, he could have won. Im very positiv about that. Kirby is very vunreable to camping with projectiles.

 

[clubbadubba]

Its a bad MU, but remember Isai played waaaaaaay to aggro. Only reason he did get sort of away with it was because he is a much better player than kikoushi. If he had been less aggressive and used more fireballs, he could have won. Im very positiv about that. Kirby is very vunreable to camping with projectiles.

Sorry, I'll take high level results vs theorizing any day. He was also "aggro" with fox but performed better. If we going to look at results at the highest level and then just explain them away as incorrect, then everyone can just claim anything they want regardless of how true it is. Something equivalent to what you said would be "If falcon players would just space better vs kirby they would have the matchup advantage." And yet despite this theorizing, results do not agree with the claim. Gotta use the evidence we have or this discussion goes nowhere.

Fact:

Isai, perhaps the best mario in the world (maybe red or jousuke have something to say about that, but it'd be close) lost to kikoushi, japan's 2nd best kirby.

Isai, the world's best fox, beat kikoushi more than he lost, albeit they were friendlies and not very many games (on tape).


Any EVIDENCE elsewhere that suggests mario is somehow better vs kirby than fox?

 

[mixa]

not sure if evidence is allowed in these threads, though.

 

[clubbadubba]

Yo mixa I know these lists end up being very subjective and we all know they are meaningless in an isolated 1v1 match, but having a visibly active community helps attract and retain new players. Like or not , tier lists is one of those ways to maintain activity in a gaming community. No reason to try to put down this effort.

 

[Olikus]

its not theorizing to say that falcons uair is better than his uptilt and its not rtheorizing to say that a mario with fireballs has a greater chance vs a kirby than a mario without fireballs.

 

[Fireblaster]

its not theorizing to say that a mario with fireballs has a greater chance vs a kirby than a mario without fireballs.

Yes it is, it is absolutely still very much theorizing. Go and play a lot of street fighter before you make another comment like that

 

[clubbadubba]

I dunno what street fighter has to do with this but fireblaster is right.

Theorizing: Isai WOULD have done better with more fireballs.

Evidence: Isai DID better with more fireballs.

 

[Fireblaster]

I dunno what street fighter has to do with this but fireblaster is right.

Olikus is under the illusion that throwing out fireballs has no weaknesses and that it is therefore obejctively better to throw out fireballs instead of not throwing them out. Street fighter quickly teaches you that there is a lot more to projectiles than simply "spam them from a safe distance and you'll be alright"

 

[The Star King]

I hate how every time anybody loses there's always that one guy who says he was playing "too aggressively"

but no I'm sure Isai doesn't know what he's doing and should take lessons from the great Olikus

 

[clubbadubba]

Olikus is under the illusion that throwing out fireballs has no weaknesses and that it is therefore obejctively better to throw out fireballs instead of not throwing them out. Street fighter quickly teaches you that there is a lot more to projectiles than simply "spam them from a safe distance and you'll be alright"

yo one time i played this guy in street fighter who was pretty good apparently, and I had only played like, 2 matches. And this was before I even played smash. I was just the super stretchy guy and I kicked his butt. That range is super ridiculous. Can you guys imagine that guy in smash? The disjointedness is out of control

 

[mixa]

Yo mixa I know these lists end up being very subjective and we all know they are meaningless in an isolated 1v1 match, but having a visibly active community helps attract and retain new players. Like or not , tier lists is one of those ways to maintain activity in a gaming community. No reason to try to put down this effort.

**** man, here's an MU for you:

mixa vs the helping-the-community-grow card

0:100

I'm leaving now, ok.

 

[Fireblaster]

yo one time i played this guy in street fighter who was pretty good apparently, and I had only played like, 2 matches. And this was before I even played smash. I was just the super stretchy guy and I kicked his butt. That range is super ridiculous. Can you guys imagine that guy in smash? The disjointedness is out of control

That's the beauty of it, dhalsim's limbs are actually not disjointed:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P7fMRER4_Jo&t=105

And yeah, just like in smash, people often say they're good in whatever other fighting game but they're not at all haha

 

[Cobrevolution]

clubdawg i was just giving my opinion on her specific matchups. i'd like to see some ness or link players give their own explanations.

as for specifics, i know falcon can uair her, but not in the same way he can do it to another falcon or dk or w/e. different timing, easier for her to escape/di, so you gotta be aware of it, and many people treat her like one of the aforementioned characters. jpuff can still get her with an utilt -> rest, and at mid percents i think her air combos against samus work very well. and yeah ness sucks.

i know my approach/spacing is a little wack but i was trying to look at it as unskewed as i could - that is, i know that approaching fox dead on is extremely difficult because of the lasers and his speed. weaving your way through them only to be caught by a pivot jab or utilt or fair or something. irrespective of anyone's skill level, getting in is a problem.

 

[stylisland]

:
10 : 90 - i'm not exaggerating. fox's speed makes it entirely impossible for samus to approach. he can just run away and laser. if you try to approach with bair, the laser will turn you around, and you're stuck trying to fair, and fox is usually just below you, so you have to start fair early, and it has such ******** ending lag you'll always get uaired or jab usmashed. if you can actually manage to catch fox on a platform, you should be able to get him off the stage and go for a nair trade or something and try to edgeguard with bombs. but i am convinced this is her worst mu by far. there is simply no way to get in close enough to hit fox; he's always just barely out of reach.

I think the match up is closer than that. Samus' can use bombs to dodge lasers, which also can get you out of an Uair chain if you can't really DI. Fair's are pretty effective against Fox's if spaced well, and once you get Fox off the edge Samus has no problem edgeguarding him. Samus' short hitstun also helps not getting z2d combo'd and fox's high hitstun can lead to him getting punished for mistakes.

I'd say the match up is 30:70 in Fox's favor

 

[Cobrevolution]

mm bombs to dodge lasers? i don't know about that. the lag you have after dropping one and she has to unroll from her ball is too much, more than enough time for an attentive fox to run up and do something. fox's great mobility in the air means he can get around those slow bombs too.

here's the problem with the spacing though - bair is superior, and she is forced to rely on lasers because of how often she's going to get hit by the lasers. a laser will also stop her fair. and the move has basically no priority - the hitbox is basically there for a split second and disappears long before the flames do. which is ****ing idiotic on the behalf of the developers, but whatever.

fox is easily edgeguarded by most of the cast, yes, and samus doesn't have a lot of trouble with it (except for those times of invincibility in fox's upb that really piss me off), but fox's counter attacks before using the upb are the bigger issue. fox off the edge at low percents or higher up is much more problematic for her than people realize.

further, merely because she can break out of combos with upb and avoid z2d with di and rely on her shorter hitstun, does not mean she doesn't eat fox combos. i have some pretty good di, and if you di behind fox dair, utilt will still catch you. in front, ftilt will reach. all of fox's moves can and will chain into other things on samus, no matter what direction she's being sent. even if you upb out, what if the fox has good enough di that he escapes a bit early? then you're a sitting duck. further, samus's punishes on fox aren't that great because of how slow she is. it comes down to being in the right place at the right time. there are many times a fox will whiff and usmash and the only option she has is dash attack. which is lolable.

i see solo is reading this and i want him to give input on this matchup

 

[Han Solo]

Samus sucks against Fox lol. Probably top 5 worst matchups in the game.

Samus is slow. It's hard to rack up damage. She can't combo. A Fox could laser all day if he wanted to, and he wouldn't have to worry about being punished. I can't give a meaningful ratio though. Probably slightly worse than 70:30, better than 90:10. When numbers are that skewed, it's hard to give them meaning. It's just really bad for Samus.

 

[clubbadubba]

90:10 seems about right to me, but that might be because I have little experience as samus since I avoid this matchup at all costs. Its pretty bad. It seems the only way to have a chance is to camp SUPER hard on either the top platform or maaaaaaybe the ledges. Even jousuke has to be a little ***** to beat a good fox.

vs jiggs getting caught by an utilt randomly shouldn't happen all that often. No reason to be that close to jiggs really. Bair/fsmash outrange it (pretty sure right?), and you don't have a close range grab you might try to land that could get you caught like say, falcon does. Jiggs can certainly combo samus, but only in situations which samus can look to avoid. Don't fall/dash into utilts, don't get close enough to get grabbed (out of which bthrow is usually the bigger threat tbh), and you eliminate a lot of jiggs instakill potential. If the matchup turns into lots of trades like samus bair for jiggs nair samus will win because he'll stay alive longer. Its really up to jiggs to force the issue and make something happen. Idk it feels like samus's matchup to lose to me. Whenever I lose as samus in that matchup I feel like I've been outplayed by the opponent. ^^btw this is just some ****ty matchup advice for cobr, not really matchup chart material discussion.

 

[Olikus]

Olikus is under the illusion that throwing out fireballs has no weaknesses and that it is therefore obejctively better to throw out fireballs instead of not throwing them out. Street fighter quickly teaches you that there is a lot more to projectiles than simply "spam them from a safe distance and you'll be alright"

How the hell did you come to the conclusion that i think spamming fireballs is the only worthy thing and that it has no weaknesses? Stop making things up.

I hate how every time anybody loses there's always that one guy who says he was playing "too aggressively"

but no I'm sure Isai doesn't know what he's doing and should take lessons from the great Olikus

Even if the was a spesific match my main point was towards the MU chart. My point was that MU can be played very different, and clubba shoudnt just base the MU on Apex GF. But yeah too bad you fell lots of hate.

 

[Han Solo]

All Olikus does is provide unending, unconditional love, and you guys just spit in his face.

 

[Mr Bushido]

:
10 : 90 - i'm not exaggerating. fox's speed makes it entirely impossible for samus to approach. he can just run away and laser. if you try to approach with bair, the laser will turn you around, and you're stuck trying to fair, and fox is usually just below you, so you have to start fair early, and it has such ******** ending lag you'll always get uaired or jab usmashed. if you can actually manage to catch fox on a platform, you should be able to get him off the stage and go for a nair trade or something and try to edgeguard with bombs. but i am convinced this is her worst mu by far. there is simply no way to get in close enough to hit fox; he's always just barely out of reach.

My Fox got 4 stocked by Bane's Samus the first time I played him.

I was probably too AgGrO

 

[Cobrevolution]

i've beaten foxes and pikachus in tournament. so what?

 

[KoRoBeNiKi]

iI guess you can use greg vs you as a good example of how to play the matchup as samus

 

[Cobrevolution]

i've also lost to foxes and pikachus, like shade and shears. nothing against shears, but i don't think he's quite as good of a player as greg is; he may just be better at the matchup. or i may be worse vs his pika.

in any case, objectively, samus gets juggled around with ease by pika, and is edgeguarded perfectly. she has an extremely difficult time landing hits and edgeguarding him.

 

[Olikus]

All Olikus does is provide unending, unconditional love, and you guys just spit in his face.

Its okay solo. Rememeber Im not necesseraly what everyone want. Im just what everyone need.
#thoughlove<3

 

[mixa]

a pikachu 2 stocked jousuke last month, thus breaking his 1st place streak
that mu is now hopeless

 

[asianaussie]

All Olikus does is provide unending, unconditional love, and you guys just spit in his face.

olikus is love, olikus is life

confirmed shrek

 

[B Link]

Ive played BOOM, Jaime's, and malva's samuses. I do much better as Pika than Fox. Just some empirical evidence for you guys to consider.

 

[Olikus]

Ive played BOOM, Jaime's, and malva's samuses. I do much better as Pika than Fox. Just some empirical evidence for you guys to consider.

Maybe add that your a pika main that througout a longer period of time played pika only? >=)

 

[mixa]

loooool pika project
snarky olikus
I knew there was something wrong with that post.

 

[Doomolish]

http://smashboards.com/threads/official-bbrs-community-tier-list-voting.335206/


For this list, all that people have done are list their tier lists (KIND OF LIKE IN THIS THREAD), which is pretty unreliable.

Unless we can create some poll on a website for people to vote on MUs (I dun think the SWF polls can do for something this elaborate), then we could do this.

Just watch this: http://smashboards.com/threads/melee-tier-list-voting-results-posted.336113/

 

[¨°PÞ-§°¨ Bane]

i think samus has an easier time on the stage against pikachu than against fox, but fox is more likely to actually get beaten than pikachu in the samus MU. pikachu's nickel and diming against samus is usually more subtle than fox's so it feels like you're able to move against him but you're still getting pwned because he outprioritizes/outranges everything with uair/etc. fox can at least get gimped at low %'s and pika really can't

 

[thegreginator]

Pika vs. Samus is definitely not 90:10. If Samus keeps her distance, stays low, and has as good wall of bairs, dairs, jab and fsmash, it can be hard for Pika to approach. I have an easier time vs. Samus with either Falcon or Fox.

 

[KoRoBeNiKi]

QUOte="thegreginator, post: 16016273, member: 48654"]Pika vs. Samus is definitely not 90:10. If Samus keeps her distance, stays low, and has as good wall of bairs, dairs, jab and fsmash, it can be hard for Pika to approach. I have an easier time vs. Samus with either Falcon or Fox.[/quote]
Nah its 80-20 hillarious arbitrary numbers are always useful

dumb phone messing up