The New Match-up Chart

[SuPeRbOoM]

I only disagreed with some arguments. Thinking it more, at least on the skill level Ness was judged by, it'd have to be Kirby > Jiggs.

Jiggs' advantages serve to punish Kirby's mistakes. Better Kirby's don't make so many mistakes.

matchups should always be steered toward what a character can do in a matchup, not half of what they can do -_-

 

[Blue Yoshi]

basic statistics used to describe matchups in smash... never thought of it.

Though I do have to point out one thing... a 7-3 matchup (for example) means that out of 10 full 5-stock games, character A will win 7 times, while charater B will win 3 times. if the stock ratio is 6-4, then the game ratio would likely end up being 7-3 or higher, since on average, the games would be two-stocks for character A.

Take brawl sheik vs Ganon (95-5 sheik advantage... or 19-1). Ganon will take more than one stock in a 19-stock match, but in many 3-stock matches, Sheik will more than likely take all three stocks before ganon does.

You had the right idea, but you were slightly off.

 

[Blackshadow]

Imagine an infinitely long stock match. Let's say that for a Mario vs. Fox match, on average, for every 6 stocks Fox takes, Mario takes 4 stocks.

Though how would we determine these values? This sounds like a good idea, I'm just not sure how we could come up with values for an infinite stock match.

 

[Blue Yoshi]

He means that lets say on average Pikachu takes 7 stocks from Ness for every 3 stocks Ness takes from Pikachu (so 7-3, 14-6, 7000-3000, etc.). We would then consider it to be a 7-3 matchup.

 

[Kefit]

Statistical and mathematical methods for considering matchups can't be done when we don't have any hard numbers to work with. Any numbers that we could use would be essentially pulled out of our collective *****.

There is a reason we are only working with basic >'s and ='s.

 

[Blue Yoshi]

Agreed. How are we to even say that Pikachu would have a 2-1 stock ratio against... say... Samus? It's just guessing.

 

[Nintendude]

For this chart it's just a suggestion to maybe figure out close matchups like Kirby vs. Jiggly. If we can't agree if it is > or =, maybe we can think of it as a stock ratio and calculate it. Obviously for other matchups we shouldn't even bother with it and leave it as is.

Blue Yoshi, the whole point is you don't actually take the length of matches into effect. The traditional way of interpreting the best of 10 matches interpretation seems ridiculously arbitrary and in particular, 9-1, 8-2, and 7-3 seem fundamentally flawed and not hard to justify. If a matchup is such that one character can win 3 out of 10 games, then that matchup really isn't all that bad imo. Whereas, if a character can win 1 out of 10 games, how the heck did that character win that 1 game? Again, it seems really arbitrary and it would make more sense intuitively that any matchup 8-2 or worse is simply 0-10.

Stock ratios are guessing but I think it's a more concrete guess than guessing how many matches out of 10 a character wins.

btw I'll probably just make a new thread on the Melee boards about this - since they actually use ratios on the Melee board. If I get lots of input I can iron out the kinks. Feel free to wait until then before replying.

 

[Blue Yoshi]

Well... either way, an advantage is still an advantage. For the sake of a matchup chart, I think leaving it at <, >, =, etc. is good enough for the 64 forums.

If people want in-depth discussion on the matchups, I'd agree to using matchup values, as they are more precise (note accurate and precise do not have the same meaning... O.o)

lol at how math (and math-related science fields) have partially taken over this thread

 

[Surri-Sama]

LOL that is funnier then you think


^_^

 

[KoRoBeNiKi]

Its like a 51-49 matchup, so dependent on stages.

 

[NixxxoN]

Thats why its probably better to put numbers instead of > = and >>

 

[Blue Yoshi]

If we did want an accurate chart, we would have to do a separate one for each stage (or at least a separate one for hyrule and dreamland).

 

[Nintendude]

For the record, I fully support stuff like > and = over numbers. It's a lot easier to agree on stuff that isn't numbers. The numbers thing was just an idea of a new way to interpret ratios, as a lot of the community still thinks ratios is the way to go.

 

[dch111]

It's probably not an issue in any event, of the rare possibility that one char has only a slight advantage over everyone else, so is all ='s, while another has an advantage (enough to qualify as a >) over just one char, and a slight disadvantage against everyone else (='s), and the latter would be ranked higher incorrectly.

 

[Superstar]

matchups should always be steered toward what a character can do in a matchup, not half of what they can do -_-

Where did I say half? I generalized the whole thing if that's what you meant, but I didn't mention half of anything. The advantages that people mentioned Jiggs had only serve to punish Kirby's mistakes, though if it was soley decided like that then the one with more range would win every matchup so =/

 

[Frogles]

ok uhh so now that you guys are done with that i wanna talk open up jiggs vs kirby again and ness vs kirby.

kirby > jiggs
kirby has priority, range, speed, power, and can outcamp jiggs. jiggs only chance is to grab at low percents. this doesn't translate to kirby = jiggs to me.

kirby >> ness
ness can't do ANYTHING in this matchup. kirby outranges on pretty much every attack and ness cannot approach or camp against a kirby. utilt pretty much ***** ness by itself.

 

[Mahie]

I would agree with Kirby > Jiggz.
Better approach for Kirby, air camp, **** edgeguards ( One hit from Kirby's Fair or Dair pretty much leads Jiggz to Death or to a very troublesome situation).
You may want to add the not-so-hard Shield Breaking combos Kirby has, aka instant KO.
Jiggz can't really air edgeguard Kirby as Kirby aerials would totally wreck her while he comes back.

Jiggz can **** Kirby if she manages to get the grab... which is hard due to Kirby's mobility. You can't hope for a shieldgrab either, shieldlag being huge and Shield Breaking being a constant threat. What's more, setting up the usual Dair / Utilt / Rest combo is hard , because of Kirby being able to stay above Jiggz most of the time.

Kirby > Jiggz.

 

[Blue Yoshi]

After having played this matchup more (online and offline), I agree with Kirby > Jiggs. Noob kirbys are fish bait, but kirbies that know what they are doing can really limit puff's options.

 

[Meccs]

tl;dr, and sorry for the noob post, but could somebody sum up how the hell Ness dropped 6 places? I haven't seen the tier list in a few months, so I was like "wtf is going on here!" when Ness dropped to 9th. 3rd place for 10 years, now he sucks? What Ness fault was found that suddenly makes him terrible? Is it pretty much just bad approaching?
Not complaining, or like "yOu GUys R aLl WrONg!", just curious.
Wish the SSB tier list hadn't been above the melee one on the wiki; it was at least nice to say Ness was good in one of the SSBs. He still has godly throws, though
*sigh* ignorance is bliss...
sorry for off-tracking.

 

[ballin4life]

Ness's recovery is terrible, he has bad range and thus bad approach, and he doesn't have good combo finishers besides his spike which is very situational. In many situations if ness makes one mistake he loses a stock either by combo or by edgeguard.

So he has bad matchups and thus a bad tier list ranking.

Also it's more like ness shouldn't have been that high in the first place.

 

[Nybb]

tl;dr, and sorry for the noob post, but could somebody sum up how the hell Ness dropped 6 places? I haven't seen the tier list in a few months, so I was like "wtf is going on here!" when Ness dropped to 9th. 3rd place for 10 years, now he sucks? What Ness fault was found that suddenly makes him terrible? Is it pretty much just bad approaching?
Not complaining, or like "yOu GUys R aLl WrONg!", just curious.
Wish the SSB tier list hadn't been above the melee one on the wiki; it was at least nice to say Ness was good in one of the SSBs. He still has godly throws, though
*sigh* ignorance is bliss...
sorry for off-tracking.

As ballin4life said, I think it's more of the fact that Ness was overrated in the old list. The GameFAQs noobs who made the old list probably just saw a guy do a Ness shield-breaker once and instantly put him third.

It's not so much that he is awful, it's just that characters like Fox, Falcon, and Mario are all clearly better. You might look at Ness and say that he has good combos (DJC), good edgeguarding moves (yo-yo), a good spike, and good throws; but really, so do most other characters. And those other characters that have those things also tend to have better recoveries and approaches than Ness. Within the Middle tier, it's pretty close, but Ness has disadvantaged matchups against others within the tier, so he gets pushed down to the bottom.

 

[Superstar]

While he was recently dropped, remember that most serious players have known the last tier list was garbage for a long time.

 

[blaze3927]

ok uhh so now that you guys are done with that i wanna talk open up jiggs vs kirby again and ness vs kirby.

kirby > jiggs
kirby has priority, range, speed, power, and can outcamp jiggs. jiggs only chance is to grab at low percents. this doesn't translate to kirby = jiggs to me.

kirby >> ness
ness can't do ANYTHING in this matchup. kirby outranges on pretty much every attack and ness cannot approach or camp against a kirby. utilt pretty much ***** ness by itself.

kirby on jiggs, and for kirby on ness:

spikes work great for ness on kirby, especially since kirby's uair kinda sucks and kirbys 3rd recovery goes straight up (into ness' foot on some occasions). and how would kirby beat an air camper/ platform camper, i mean get above kirby and he cant do much, happens when its on jiggs it leads into an easy death combo

 

[ballin4life]

i mean get above kirby and he cant do much

WAT

10utilts

 

[Meccs]

Alright, thanks for the answers guys.
Yeah he's a lot harder to use, his spike isn't really easy to pull off like it is in brawl (or easier, at least ). I can see why he wouldn't be top.
At least my other main, Pika, is still at the undisputed top :D

 

[t3h Icy]

Am I still updating this?

Some Agreement:

Kirby > Jigglypuff

 

[SilentSlayers]

Yoshi > Luigi

 

[KoRoBeNiKi]

to make it so that its easier for people to read this

consider adding what each color means

also, boom and i played a bunch of rounds, yoshi vs falcon

We both agreed its 55-45 falcon.

 

[Blue Yoshi]

I think we considered 55-45 to be even... so that would be a change if everyone agrees to it...

 

[t3h Icy]

Some Agreement:

Yoshi = Falcon
Kirby > Jigglypuff

Also, if you look at where the specific colours are, and how the ranks are, I'd imagine it's not hard to figure out what each colour means.

 

[asianaussie]

It'd still be pretty simple to just write:

Blue: >>
Green: >

and so on.

U-Air owns Falcon. Falcon's combos beat up Yoshi. Lots of things they can do to one another.

 

[KoRoBeNiKi]

It'd still be pretty simple to just write:

Blue: >>
Green: >

and so on.

U-Air owns Falcon. Falcon's combos beat up Yoshi. Lots of things they can do to one another.

The main thing which we played with was

Approach: Falcon has an overall better approach, mostly due to a better throw and aerial setup. However, if Falcon misses either an up smash, aerial, or a dash grab, Yoshi can up tilt to either a 0 to death or a quick and easy combo that gets falcon off the stage and easily edgeguards. Yoshi can use F-air, back air, DJC and n-air as solid combo starters as well. Eggs aren't too useful outside of edgeguarding due to Falcon easily being able to hit through them.

The other main thing to bring up is the difference between falcon comboing yoshi and yoshi comboing falcon. One up tilt by yoshi leads to death usually unless Yoshi either misses a DJC or misses an edgeguard or if Falcon crouch cancels. Falcon comboing yoshi is different. If Falcon mistimes an aerial, Yoshi can DJCC a falcon aerial into a down air, back air, and n-air and into a very big combo. Also, Falcon's up b restores Yoshi's double jump as it has the properties of a grab.

Also, there is a difference in recovery. Falcon is easily edgeguarded as Down tilt, Eggs, back air, and Egg Bomb Cancels work well. Yoshi overall has a better recovery in this matchup as long as yoshi recovers from the top down. If Yoshi recovers from the bottom up, Falcon can simply up b Yoshi out of the recovery and proceed to edgeguard again. If Yoshi recovers from the top down, Yoshi can use the properties of the double jump to prevent most falcon moves (outside of throws)

 

[ballin4life]

I think some of that is stage dependent. Yoshi combos falcon easily on hyrule but I feel like the platforms on dreamland mess up the yoshi combos since utilt sends falcon onto the platform.

 

[asianaussie]

I might be missing something here, but you could argue that forcing somebody onto a small, slightly higher platform as Yoshi isn't much of an obstacle, especially if they miss the tech.

 

[WOTG]

I think some of that is stage dependent. Yoshi combos falcon easily on hyrule but I feel like the platforms on dreamland mess up the yoshi combos since utilt sends falcon onto the platform.

If you utilt them on to a platform, you can dair them, or if they're at the right percentage, you can nair them, followed by something like a spike.

 

[KoRoBeNiKi]

If you utilt them on to a platform, you can dair them, or if they're at the right percentage, you can nair them, followed by something like a spike.

unless the opponent has good DI, this occurs very easily.

Up tilt, down air, f-tilt into f-air is a combo that actually works with the training mode

You can also do an up tilt at lower percents into back air, fall through the platform or shield, and just tech chase the falcon.

However, Boomfan also did better overall on Dreamland

Its probably 60-40 (Falcon) on DL, 55-45 (Falcon) on HC, simply because Yoshi can't abuse the platforms as well as Falcon. If anything, Yoshi's back air becomes better in this matchup due to range and n-air becomes worse.

Since Hyrule is played more often than DL, that is why it is still 55-45 matchup.

 

[SheerMadness]

I disagree. I think Yoshi is better vs Falcon on DL. Yoshi's main problem is approaching defensive Falcons imo. On DL they have less room to just wait around for you to approach and then punish you. It's also easier to 0-death combo Falcon on dreamland, for me atleast.

 

[KoRoBeNiKi]

I disagree. I think Yoshi is better vs Falcon on DL. Yoshi's main problem is approaching defensive Falcons imo. On DL they have less room to just wait around for you to approach and then punish you. It's also easier to 0-death combo Falcon on dreamland, for me atleast.

maybe i felt different since it was vs. Boomfan on boomland 64.

 

[SheerMadness]

I've played him on DL too. Doesn't change my opinion that Yoshi is better vs Falcon on dreamland. Easier to edgeguard, 0-death, and approach on DL.

 

[KoRoBeNiKi]

I've played him on DL too. Doesn't change my opinion that Yoshi is better vs Falcon on dreamland. Easier to edgeguard, 0-death, and approach on DL.

do you think as well that the matchup is 55-45 Falcon as well

I just want another good yoshi to give their opinion