The New Match-up Chart

[KoRoBeNiKi]

errr
pk thunder, pk fire, yoyo, bad range? yeah...

PK fire is only barely usesful

PK thunder is just asking for a hit

Yo-Yo is more of a killing/edgeguard move.....and doesn't combo at all except for up smash out of up tilt vs fast fallers.

So yea, Ness has bad range, for all of his good moves (as in DJC's and what not) have little range.
Of course ness would be beyond broken if ness had at least falcon range for his aerials. He just has broken priority and DJC shield breaks.

its why when we talk about pikachu being the best character, we don't talk about Pikachu's thunder jolt

 

[ballin4life]

If Ness' approach is bad, why? What about Yoshi's?

He has no range. Yoshi at least has bair which has decent range. Also I feel like Yoshi is faster in the air.

 

[KoRoBeNiKi]

He has no range. Yoshi at least has bair which has decent range. Also I feel like Yoshi is faster in the air.

Ness has quicker moves, Yoshi has more range.

 

[DMoogle]

I don't understand this no range thing.

I'm pretty sure Ness' DJCed b-air has more range than any other aerial in the game.

errr
pk thunder, pk fire, yoyo, bad range? yeah...

Sarcasm? Those are pretty much his worst moves except for when edgeguarding.

 

[firo]

Ness doesn't have much range on a lot of his moves, but doing DJCed bairs, fairs, uairs, and upsmash are good moves for approach and do have some range. (Along with his dash attack, which actually is fairly decent).

The only real advantage Yoshi has over Ness for approach is his super armor during his second jump which he can use to get moves in after an opponent tries to counter. Other than that, I would argue that Ness has quicker, higher priority, and more powerful moves that results in more combo ability. This can be seen in the Ness v Yoshi matchup, where Yoshi's approach gets severely mitigated by Ness's aerial game.

 

[DMoogle]

The only real advantage Yoshi has over Ness for approach is his super armor during his second jump which he can use to get moves in after an opponent tries to counter. Other than that, I would argue that Ness has quicker, higher priority, and more powerful moves that results in more combo ability. This can be seen in the Ness v Yoshi matchup, where Yoshi's approach gets severely mitigated by Ness's aerial game.

...and Yoshi's recovery is over 9000 times better.

I agree with Ness = Yoshi though.

 

[NixxxoN]

I was talking about range, not if the moves were good or bad. Pk thunder and pk fire can be decent moves in some situations, and the yoyo is good for comboing (usmash) and for edgeguarding (dsmash)

Also, Ness recovery sucks, but Yoshis recovery is not that much better

 

[DMoogle]

It doesn't matter what the range is if the move sucks. This does tend to apply in Melee a lot more than Smash 64. PK fire/thunder is only MARGINALLY useful if you can catch your opponent off guard (or when edgeguarding). Finding good TRUE combos with the yo-yo (where another move wouldn't be better) is generally pretty difficult, and usually when you do find one the range isn't all that important.

Yoshi's recovery is SO much better once you know how to use it optimally, which I learned for the first time the other day. The key is to not attack. I always wondered why I had problems recovering with Yoshi but had difficulty edgeguarding good Yoshi players like Sheer.

 

[NixxxoN]

IIRC if you still dont attack you can be knocked off, assuming that you reach the stage

 

[Deleted member]

Yoshi's recovery is about 3018 times better than nesses

 

[DMoogle]

IIRC if you still dont attack you can be knocked off, assuming that you reach the stage

Yes, but your flinch resistance is MUCH higher. When you attack, your flinch resistance goes way down.

 

[Deleted member]

and you can still smash DI stuff to barely get to the edge if you get hit sort of hard

 

[asianaussie]

Yoshi's safe against most things in recovering. The only real way to edgeguard a low-damage Yoshi that doesn't attack as it recovers is with grabs/super hits like Giant Punch/Charge Shot.

Ness, on the other hand, is very, very vulnerable, both off ledge and when he lands. The difference is pretty easy to see.

 

[t3h Icy]

So what are we going to go with in the Jigglypuff/Link and Samus/Ness match-ups? And is Yoshi/Ness going to change as well?

 

[KoRoBeNiKi]

So what are we going to go with in the Jigglypuff/Link and Samus/Ness match-ups? And is Yoshi/Ness going to change as well?

Ive said this before, Yoshi vs ness...is even.....lol.

Ness>Samus
Link = Jiggs....Lol Bombs and boomerang spam.

 

[Blackshadow]

Yes, but your flinch resistance is MUCH higher. When you attack, your flinch resistance goes way down.

Yoshi actually loses all of his super armour once he attacks during his second jump, so he has no protection from knockback if he's hit by a higher priority attack.

 

[KoRoBeNiKi]

Yoshi actually loses all of his super armour once he attacks during his second jump, so he has no protection from knockback if he's hit by a higher priority attack.

This is why Yoshi either:

1. Waits for the hit to hit and then attacks (DJCC or Double Jump Cancel Counter)
2. Or, just jumps through the hit (as in while Yoshi is recovering

As long as Yoshi's head is hit, there aren't almost any moves that cause significant comboable percentage, until much higher percent.

The main one i can think of is Fox's first hit up air.

 

[t3h Icy]

So are we staying with Jigglypuff = Link and Samus = Ness or what?

 

[Nintendude]

I think Jiggly = Link but I'm unsure about Samus vs. Ness. I personally find it one of Samus's easiest matchups but I also remember seeing a video on youtube where Isai's Samus loses to a Japanese Ness player (then again Japanese Ness is better). I'm leaning towards keeping it as Samus = Ness.

 

[DMoogle]

I'd like to come back to Luigi vs. DK. I think Luigi definitely has an advantage here. Luigi's fireballs are actually pretty useful against him as DK's moves are slow, he's huge, and he doesn't have any projectiles to help counter them. That's not a big point, but overall DK's size really works against him more with Luigi than many other characters. DK's b-air works OK, but Luigi can just shield, and, because of the shield physics, Luigi will often slide too far back for DK to follow up with a grab.

What does DK really have going for him in this matchup?

 

[Nintendude]

We've been through this many times already. Go back a few pages and specifically counter our arguments.

 

[DMoogle]

Luigi's fireballs suck.

Generally true but like I said they're way better vs. DK. DK's approach favors the air, Luigi's approach favors the ground. The fireballs can be used to help enforce/encourage DK to stay on or near the ground.

Why would DK just run into Luigi's dairs if he has stuff that way outranges it?

For a near-ground battle, what, specifically? Dash-dance grab is useful here, although I *think* this can be countered with following up a SH d-air with a f-air. DK's b-air is too slow near ground.

I fail to see how a character with better range, priority, and maneuverability will have an approach disadvantage against a character who is too immobile and slow to properly camp. Luigi can space all he wants but DK spaces better.

DK's range advantage is only emphasized with his grab (not to mention he can't chaingrab Luigi in the **** tent, but that's a smallish point) and b-air. His grab is obv. awesome, but b-air isn't that difficult to counter.

DK doesn't really have to combo either. Land like 3 up-Bs, a bair, and a grab and it's already edgeguarding time.

Luigi is somewhat difficult to edgeguard, since he should optimally be recovering from below. Also, for Luigi, it's edgeguarding time from the get-go. Throw DK off, drill to oblivion. DK's best shot is recovering from above, but that leaves him open as he lands.

 

[Daedatheus]

DK's range advantage is only emphasized with his grab (not to mention he can't chaingrab Luigi in the **** tent, but that's a smallish point) and b-air. His grab is obv. awesome, but b-air isn't that difficult to counter.

And his uair has massive range.
And down+b kills ground approaches with great range.
And G. Punch has massive range, a little more situational though...

 

[DMoogle]

And his uair has massive range.

Yes, but the cooldown is extremely long and the hit stun is short at low percents, allowing for an easy follow up at low percents or when Luigi is able to get out of the way.

And down+b kills ground approaches with great range.

Honestly I haven't implemented this into my DK game that much, so I can't really comment on it. DK is probably one of my worst characters if not my worst, so that may be introducing some general bias.

And G. Punch has massive range, a little more situational though...

The punch is usually used as a combo finisher, not as an approach tool. Maybe some people can effectively use it as an approach/counter tool, although I haven't seen much of this.

 

[Blue Yoshi]

I use Giant Punch as an approach/counter all the time. People always walk into it.

I think this has been discussed too much. There is not much cool-down to an up-air if used right (and Z/L-cancelled).

 

[Daedatheus]

Honestly I haven't implemented this into my DK game that much, so I can't really comment on it. DK is probably one of my worst characters if not my worst, so that may be introducing some general bias.

It's very useful if someone tries to space close but outside of DK's grab range, you can just down+b and watch them fly into the air, ready to be combo'd!

...just don't get baited into doing it

 

[Nintendude]

Luigi's fireballs suck regardless of who he's facing. Ok, so he jumps up and shoots one as he falls. Now it takes him a second just to finish landing and the fireball moves like molasses anyway.

DK's range advantage is in his bair and up-B. People are really underestimating how good his Bair is, and a weak Bair leads to a grab or up-B. Up-B is a great answer to any of Luigi's low approaches provide you space it properly vertically. It outranges Luigi's aerials and has really good priority with proper positioning.

Edgeguarding Luigi isn't that bad since he has a hard time avoiding up-B edgeguards.

Basically, up-B and bair wreck Luigi. End of story.

 

[t3h Icy]

Debating:

[Blank]

Are we all done then?

 

[Nintendude]

I think so. Good work team. So now let's figure out exactly how we want to make the new tier list.

 

[firo]

I think we can at least discuss Ness v Samus (As much as I'd like to argue Ness v Yoshi some more, it seems that I am in the minority).

Neither character can combo the other too well, but I think that Ness has the upper hand in this matchup. Uair, Dair, and Fair combos do work to some extent on a Samus. Ness's uair trades hits with Samus's Dair which limits her approach and combo (dair to bair) abilities.

 

[DMoogle]

Ness's uair trades hits with Samus's Dair

Kabal might've just been off the other day, but I felt like I was out-prioritizing his Samus' d-air with Ness' u-air most of the time.

 

[Superstar]

If you're done with the chart...lower the compression. It's hideous.

It's not useless spam, it's gotta be more appealing honestly.

 

[t3h Icy]

I'll pretty up the chart once we're solid with it.

But before we do that, we'll discuss Yoshi/Ness and Samus/Ness first. When that's done we'll move to the next step.

 

[firo]

Kabal might've just been off the other day, but I felt like I was out-prioritizing his Samus' d-air with Ness' u-air most of the time.

I may have to play some more matches to see, but I think that if both moves are timed well the hits will trade.

 

[Deleted member]

No

Ness should win every time

any trade that occurs is if samus attacked barely earlier

 

[Surri-Sama]

Ness' Uair and Utilt have a very high priority, Utilt can cancle basicly everything, and his Uair can get around 9/10 of the casts Dair (most common retaliation when being juggled upwards) so i cant see Samus Dair getting through...but her Down B might

 

[t3h Icy]

Ness = Samus to Ness > Samus?

Poor Samus.

 

[SilentSlayers]

IMO Ness > Samus because of the reasons said.

 

[Superstar]

You think Ness is bad? LOOK AT SAMUS!

Just because it's Samus' "best matchup" doesn't mean it's an advantage for Samus. She is terrible.

To be fair though, Ness can't do much but bash Samus with high priority aerials. Not like Samus can do much back either. It is advantage Ness, but by how much, I don't know.

 

[t3h Icy]

Actually, it seems Jigglypuff and another Samus are Samus' best match-ups.