D
Deleted member
Guest
All you have to do with Kirby is use his back-air facing the right way
Jiggly vs Link seems very even maybe slightly jiggly sided
Jiggly vs Link seems very even maybe slightly jiggly sided
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The New Match-up Chart
- Thread starter t3h Icy
- Start date
Nintendude
Smash Hero
Of course Jiggly's defensive options aren't good either but Jiggly has much better aerial maneuverability than Kirby so Jiggly is able to outspace and put Kirby on the defensive. Even if Kirby gets more hits on Jiggly, Jiggly needs way less hits to win.
I think Link vs. Jiggly is pretty even. It's also a matchup where small stages don't hurt Link as much as they would otherwise since Jiggly tends to get KOs with Rest rather than with gimps and also Link kills Jiggly really fast on small stages.
I think Link vs. Jiggly is pretty even. It's also a matchup where small stages don't hurt Link as much as they would otherwise since Jiggly tends to get KOs with Rest rather than with gimps and also Link kills Jiggly really fast on small stages.
thegreginator
Smash Journeyman
- Joined
- Oct 22, 2006
- Messages
- 372
Jiggly > Link
On small stages, Jiggs bthrow can can link pretty easily. And its pretty easy to throw link if you can get around the projectiles.
Ness = Yoshi
Ness' uptilt and upair are great for stopping/comboing yoshi. Sure yoshi can combo Ness too but thats why its =
Jiggs = kirby
Ok hirby has a good utilt, priority, etc. The bottom line is jiggs can easily 0-death kirby you just have to get in one good hit
A new one to debate: Luigi > Ness
Luigi can combo ness better. Also, on small stages throw off, edgeguard, repeat is too easy.
On small stages, Jiggs bthrow can can link pretty easily. And its pretty easy to throw link if you can get around the projectiles.
Ness = Yoshi
Ness' uptilt and upair are great for stopping/comboing yoshi. Sure yoshi can combo Ness too but thats why its =
Jiggs = kirby
Ok hirby has a good utilt, priority, etc. The bottom line is jiggs can easily 0-death kirby you just have to get in one good hit
A new one to debate: Luigi > Ness
Luigi can combo ness better. Also, on small stages throw off, edgeguard, repeat is too easy.
Nintendude
Smash Hero
So now we've gone from people thinking Kirby > Jiggly to Jiggly > Kirby? I definitely think it is even...
Luigi vs. Ness was already debated. We agreed that Luigi is the one character that Ness is actually good at approaching, which really makes a huge difference since Ness is pretty **** if he can get the hits in. Also, slow horizontal movement and bad fireballs reduces his ability to gimp Ness (though it still isn't that difficult).
Your argument also doesn't make any sense because any character can "throw off, edgeguard, repeat." If that's enough to give Luigi an edge on Ness then the rest of the cast should outright destroy him since Luigi is a relatively bad character.
Luigi vs. Ness was already debated. We agreed that Luigi is the one character that Ness is actually good at approaching, which really makes a huge difference since Ness is pretty **** if he can get the hits in. Also, slow horizontal movement and bad fireballs reduces his ability to gimp Ness (though it still isn't that difficult).
Your argument also doesn't make any sense because any character can "throw off, edgeguard, repeat." If that's enough to give Luigi an edge on Ness then the rest of the cast should outright destroy him since Luigi is a relatively bad character.
Zen Yore
Smash Ace
typical jiggly = jumping around with dair / standing still and uptilting/upsmashing
thegreginator
Smash Journeyman
- Joined
- Oct 22, 2006
- Messages
- 372
I meant kirby = jiggly. my bad.
Ness does have an approach advantage but luigi's floatiness makes him hard to combo. ness ***** the heavy characters when he gets a hit in much more than the floaties. he can really only dair techchase when luigi is at a high enough percent which shouldnt work if the luigi knows what hes doing. luigi can start combos on ness with an upsmash which out-prioritizes many of ness' approaches
Ness does have an approach advantage but luigi's floatiness makes him hard to combo. ness ***** the heavy characters when he gets a hit in much more than the floaties. he can really only dair techchase when luigi is at a high enough percent which shouldnt work if the luigi knows what hes doing. luigi can start combos on ness with an upsmash which out-prioritizes many of ness' approaches
asianaussie
Smash Hero
Link = Jiggs
If Link gets hit by Rest on any percent higher than about 35, chances are he isn't coming back. This is reduced to about 20 on smaller stages. On the other hand, Link can seriously annoy Jiggs. F-Air works well since Jiggs puffs up, D-Air and U-Air break most things easily, and I haven't even mentioned projectiles. Smashes kill easy. The problem Link has is guarding against Jiggs' recovery, because a smart Jiggs recovering high is very difficult to stop effectively. On the other hand, Jiggs (well, most characters) owns Link's recovery effectively with edgehogs/simple D-Air/stuff.
If Link gets hit by Rest on any percent higher than about 35, chances are he isn't coming back. This is reduced to about 20 on smaller stages. On the other hand, Link can seriously annoy Jiggs. F-Air works well since Jiggs puffs up, D-Air and U-Air break most things easily, and I haven't even mentioned projectiles. Smashes kill easy. The problem Link has is guarding against Jiggs' recovery, because a smart Jiggs recovering high is very difficult to stop effectively. On the other hand, Jiggs (well, most characters) owns Link's recovery effectively with edgehogs/simple D-Air/stuff.
DMoogle
A$
Overall, what solid approach options does Jiggly have vs. Link ? I don't think I have a very good Jiggly. Good Links should usually be difficult to approach for almost all characters (main exceptions being Fox, Captain Falcon, and Pikachu), but for Jigglypuff especially.
Jiggly's d-air should be close to useless vs. someone who can DI well, although it ***** those who don't.
Jiggly's d-air should be close to useless vs. someone who can DI well, although it ***** those who don't.
D
Deleted member
Guest
No it isn't
Good Jiggly's drill all the time
If you can drill completely standing still with a short hop, you can use Jiggly's aerial manuerability to follow them as they DI
Bad Jiggly's do not follow them
Good Jiggly's drill all the time
If you can drill completely standing still with a short hop, you can use Jiggly's aerial manuerability to follow them as they DI
Bad Jiggly's do not follow them
DMoogle
A$
Yeah I call that "DI chasing," and it works great against guys who are only OK at DI. Face someone who consistently DIs in the least-exploitable direction and with a good DI method, and the effectivity of DI chasing goes way down. It's more noticeable with Jigglypuff than anyone else with drills, IMO.
D
Deleted member
Guest
How come Isai can pull it off everytime I face him even with HAX keyboard DI
firo
Smash Ace
Ness can combo Yoshi much better than the other way around. Ness's floatiness makes many Yoshi combos extremely difficult if the Ness player DIs effectively (especially DI up). This can allow Ness to get out of moves like Yoshi's uptilt. Meanwhile, Yoshi is pretty much the perfect weight for Ness to pull off uair, dair, and fair combos without allowing Yoshi much room to escape. Yoshi also has limited options for getting out of a shield including a slow roll, which makes it easier for Ness to consistently pressure Yoshi or force a shield break.
I've always argued that Ness = Luigi,, as I feel both can kill, edgeguard, and approach each other evenly.
I've always argued that Ness = Luigi,, as I feel both can kill, edgeguard, and approach each other evenly.
D
Deleted member
Guest
Ness isn't that floaty
Nintendude
Smash Hero
icy, seeing as this chart is practically done, how would you feel about creating a Melee one in the same format?
Blue Yoshi
Smash Master
current melee matchup thread:
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=234220
I see way too many mistakes... especially with the lower tiered characters. Competitive melee is top 10 characters or you suck. There is no care for anyone mid or lower... unless you have someone like Taj with Mewtwo or Gimpy with Bowser.
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=234220
I see way too many mistakes... especially with the lower tiered characters. Competitive melee is top 10 characters or you suck. There is no care for anyone mid or lower... unless you have someone like Taj with Mewtwo or Gimpy with Bowser.
t3h Icy
Smash Master
- Joined
- Jun 12, 2009
- Messages
- 4,917
I've been considering that, but there's a few things. Firstly, with an already on-going one, I don't think people will take having two of them at the same time too nicely. Secondly, Melee is where all the "Smash Celebrities" are. I don't think they'll like having some random, unheard of n00b creating the chart.
But, I'll think about it once everything for this one is done. I want the last three (or more) match-ups discussed and finalized, go through the process of seeing if everyone agrees with the chart, then work on fixing the tier list, and perhaps then I'll move onto the Melee one. Hopefully I don't get hounded or have the topic locked, but we'll see.
Surri-Sama
Smash Hero
Welcome to smash64 boards?!
where "random noobs" are accepted as reputable and reliable!
:| why does that sound awful....
Blue Yoshi
Smash Master
I don't know if you can do a melee chart the same way we do it here. In 64, there are only 132 matchups to discuss, and most of them are played often and well agreed upon. In melee, there are 650 matchups, and a huge majority are never played, and too many people have a bias for the top tier... with a 'lets put a random number we think is good enough for the garbage tier' attitude. Believe me, I tried to suggest some of the lower tiered characters have better than 95-5 matchups (like 70-30), and I got flamed for being a low-tier 'TR4Q' noob. The elitism is huge in the melee competitive scene.
t3h Icy
Smash Master
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- Jun 12, 2009
- Messages
- 4,917
Hahahaha. Well I've only been playing Smash Bros 64 competitively for a few months now, and I'm already somewhat known of (mostly due to the char though), and I'm about on par with Daedatheus (albeit with just one character). The thing is because it's online.
For Melee to get well-known, you usually have to travel to all the major tournaments, place high, etc. So again, they probably wouldn't like me leading the new chart.
Also, all of Blue Yoshi's points.
Oh and also, there are 66 match-ups. You're counting both sides of the diagonal, instead of just once (IE: Jigglypuff vs DK and DK vs Jigglypuff is just one match-up =P)
Blue Yoshi
Smash Master
Well, in one way you are right. In another...
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=226315
Look at some of the matchups on both sides. Not all of them add up to 100. If anything, look at Yoshi vs Samus. It's both a 60/40 advantage for Yoshi and a 65/35 advantage for Samus. lol @ brawl.
If we were to go by that chart, it would include both sides of the diagonal.
But yeah, you're right. But still, 66 matchups vs 325 is a huge difference... especially considering how most of them are never played.
Nintendude
Smash Hero
Well you have to remember that with the current Melee chart is also being run by a no-name. At the very least, I think it would be interesting to convert the current Melee chart into the SSB64 format and see how it looks. The guy running it is extremely opposed to anything besides ratios.
earthadept
Smash Lord
The melee chart is dying for an update... But you'll definitely get flamed/locked. I don't think anyone will accept a new chart unless it's personally written by mango. haha
Blue Yoshi
Smash Master
look at his puff guide. it's what all puff players seem to go by. what he says is what they say. At least for the few that I've spoken to lol.
D
Deleted member
Guest
in the grand scheme of things a lot of things seem correct
unless you mean a matchup of 90-10 should be 75-15
in the end those little things don't really matter
earthadept
Smash Lord
The arbitrary nature of the ratios makes the whole system dumb imo. They should just do advantage and disadvantage like this chart has
t3h Icy
Smash Master
- Joined
- Jun 12, 2009
- Messages
- 4,917
What I dislike about ratios is how you can accurately determine 90-10 and 85-15. And unlike Smash64, Melee only has about a dozen characters 95% of the players use, while every character is used quite a bit in Smash64, even Samus. How many well-known Yoshi players have there been? Fumi, Bloshi? I don't see how people can determine match-ups to the % when you never play those characters.
Oh and Blue Yoshi, the reason why there are two times as many match-ups is because (for example) the Kirby boards and the Mario boards have different opinions, but as you said, there are several spots where the boards say their character has the advantage over the other.
And the Mango Stuff About Puff is a good example that most players don't completely think for themselves, they just follow along with what they say, and when you're flying all over the country, having a blast and beating all the pros without fail, it's easy to influence other players.
But moving along now.
Some Agreement:
Jigglypuff = Link to Jigglypuff > Link
Debating:
Samus = Ness to Samus ? Ness
To start summing up I would like everyone to post all match-ups they disagree with, whether they've been discussed before or not, so we can get one final consensus on any leftover match-ups, and finally conclude the chart.
Oh and Blue Yoshi, the reason why there are two times as many match-ups is because (for example) the Kirby boards and the Mario boards have different opinions, but as you said, there are several spots where the boards say their character has the advantage over the other.
And the Mango Stuff About Puff is a good example that most players don't completely think for themselves, they just follow along with what they say, and when you're flying all over the country, having a blast and beating all the pros without fail, it's easy to influence other players.
But moving along now.
Some Agreement:
Jigglypuff = Link to Jigglypuff > Link
Debating:
Samus = Ness to Samus ? Ness
To start summing up I would like everyone to post all match-ups they disagree with, whether they've been discussed before or not, so we can get one final consensus on any leftover match-ups, and finally conclude the chart.
PKNintendo
Smash Master
- Joined
- Aug 9, 2008
- Messages
- 3,679
Okay people I am SO joining this metagame here. It's the bottom ninth and Ness is at lower mid.
LET'S GOGOGO PEOPLE.
But seriously what is the smash 64 metagame about? I thought it was about hitting the opponent as FAST and as HARD as you could... 0 death combo's and the like. What are Ness's strength and weaknesses?
LET'S GOGOGO PEOPLE.
But seriously what is the smash 64 metagame about? I thought it was about hitting the opponent as FAST and as HARD as you could... 0 death combo's and the like. What are Ness's strength and weaknesses?
Blue Yoshi
Smash Master
I know. Every matchup in the grid is to the opinion of the boards for the character on the left side. That's why I said Yoshi thinks it's 60-40 for them and Samus thinks it's 65-35 for them. Actually, reading my post, I forgot to mension the boards themselves, but that's what I meant. both think it's a significant advantage for themselves.
I was bringing up that chart as a joke.
I was bringing up that chart as a joke.
asianaussie
Smash Hero
When was Jiggs > Link agreed? Sure, she has a slight advantage with her low-percent kills/edgeguarding, but is it really enough to be a >? I still think it's Link = Jiggs, since Jiggs has issues approaching if the Link is decent at spacing and projectile use. Link gets the low-percent kills to a degree as well, but so do everyone else. Perhaps Jiggs > Link on Dreamland/Peach's Castle, but definitely not on Hyrule/Saffron.
Nintendude
Smash Hero
I say Jiggs = Link. In fact, I pretty much agree with the entire chart the way it is.
ballin4life
Smash Hero
Strengths: Good priority, decent combos, very useful djc.
Weaknesses: Bad approach, horrible recovery, and lack of finishers.
DMoogle
A$
If Ness' approach is bad, why? What about Yoshi's?
asianaussie
Smash Hero
Ness doesn't really have a bad approach, he just has slow aerial speed. While these two generally go hand in hand, Ness's DJC can move him around pretty quickly...
As for finishers...I would have assumed throws (two of the most powerful in the game, iirc) would work pretty okay. U-Air also KOs from the ground at about 125%, and getting a DJC U-Air in isn't really THAT difficult.
As for finishers...I would have assumed throws (two of the most powerful in the game, iirc) would work pretty okay. U-Air also KOs from the ground at about 125%, and getting a DJC U-Air in isn't really THAT difficult.
D
Deleted member
Guest
No
any smart dude knows when Ness is doing DJC speed up aerial and will counter attack super easily
If Ness tries to bait by making it shorter, he can't punish them anyways
any smart dude knows when Ness is doing DJC speed up aerial and will counter attack super easily
If Ness tries to bait by making it shorter, he can't punish them anyways
Superstar
Smash Champion
They work, but Ness really can't combo into those finishers too well, or lead from a combo to them either. Once Ness exits combo range, the only thing that may kill is a throw. Uairs will require a few hits before one will finally kill.
Yoshi has all that DJC invincibility going for him.
No blaring holes, at least, I don't see any.
Yoshi has all that DJC invincibility going for him.
No blaring holes, at least, I don't see any.
Frogles
Smash Ace
ness has slow run speed and bad grab range. yah not really good for a finisher huh.
ness has bad range on everything pretty much. bad range + slow run = bad approach.
ness has bad range on everything pretty much. bad range + slow run = bad approach.
Superstar
Smash Champion
PK Thunder LOL, PK Fire LOL, Yoyo is decent but leaves you open, and it's not really a finisher except DSmash as an edgeguard [and you have to get them there in the first place]. And you can just GO to someone and Yoyo them, while you can sort of say the same thing about almost any attack, that's asking to get destroyed.
t3h Icy
Smash Master
- Joined
- Jun 12, 2009
- Messages
- 4,917
PK Fire and the Yo-yo are decent if you know when to use them, but PK Thunder is a pretty terrible move to use for offensive purposes (except maybe against recovering characters), but if you just stand there and fire it, you're incredibly open. If you miss it to, you're left completely open. Falcon Punch, Giant Punch, Charged Shot anyone?
Ehh, I don't know the match-ups, but I would think Link = Jigglypuff and Samus = Ness.