The New Match-up Chart

[SSBPete]

it doesn't matter as much for 64 since its more balanced, the top tier characters are set in stone, and the non top tiers are all fairly similar in **** levels (except samus)

even then theres some good samus' who can outplay good pika's.
and wasnt link bottom tier only a few months ago?

 

[t3h Icy]

Updated:
Kirby = Jigglypuff to Kirby > Jigglypuff

Some Agreement:
Ness > Link to Ness = Link
Ness > Samus to Ness = Samus

Debating:
Ness > Luigi to Ness = Luigi

Ness and Jigglypuff swapped ranks. Also the first update since late September. Ehh.

 

[t3h Icy]

10*coughs*

 

[rpotts]

should the wiki's tierlist be updated to show the ness/jiggles swap?

 

[dch111]

Probably not until the other Ness match-ups are cleared up.

I'd say Ness > Link but I'm not strongly opinioned on it.

I don't know about the other ones. These are some of the harder ones to really be certain on.

 

[t3h Icy]

should the wiki's tierlist be updated to show the ness/jiggles swap?

Considering that all of Ness' good match-ups are up for debate and the difference is minuscule, it'd be dumb to. Remember that while this chart gives some insight, it's not extremely specific so small differences can flip-flop.

 

[otg]

Can someone explain two of Luigi's matchups for me?

Luigi vs. Ness/Link. I really do not see how these are both disadvantaged matchups for him, but I'm curious to hear someone's rationale behind it.

 

[NixxxoN]

Can someone explain two of Luigi's matchups for me?

Luigi vs. Ness/Link. I really do not see how these are both disadvantaged matchups for him, but I'm curious to hear someone's rationale behind it.

I'd say both are really close and theres no need to care about those matchups. I mean the best player will probably win no matter who's using

 

[DMoogle]

theres no need to care about those matchups. I mean the best player will probably win no matter who's using

If you're saying that, then there's really no point to even being in this thread.

Link is difficult to approach in general, but Luigi already has a poor approach. A particularly defensive Link can make life hell for Luigi.

Not too sure about him vs. Ness though. Most Ness matches are very high variance (comparably so with Falcon's matches), and I don't really have the experience in that match-up to make a call one way or the other, as there aren't many Luigi or Ness players that are similar in skill to me. I do think it's fairly close though.

 

[t3h Icy]

Some Agreement:
Ness > Link to Ness = Link
Ness > Samus to Ness = Samus

Debating:
Ness > Luigi to Ness = Luigi

Anyone care enough to get this finished? I don't really mind if not.

 

[Blue Yoshi]

theres no need to care about those matchups. I mean the best player will probably win no matter who's using

Using that logic, who cares about puff vs Fox. It's probably one of the most lopsided matchups in the game, but if the puff player is better than the fox player, then the puff player will win most of the time.

The entire point of a matchup chart is to compare two characters when used by people with the same high skill level. I'll go back to my pikachu vs polygon pikachu. Sure, if the polygon pikachu player is much better than the pikachu player, the polygon pikachu player will win most of the time, but due to the pikachu player having more options than the polygon pikachu player (polygons can't grab, use b attacks, shield, for example), the pikachu player will have an advantage.



Edit, didn't see Icy's post.

I'd like to get this finished. All we have left is a few edits where necessary... meaning not much effort is needed. But obviously, if only two people try to create a chart, that won't happen very well.

 

[DMoogle]

Some Agreement:
Ness > Link to Ness = Link
Ness > Samus to Ness = Samus

Debating:
Ness > Luigi to Ness = Luigi

Anyone care enough to get this finished? I don't really mind if not.

I've been playing a lot of Ness lately, and I definitely think he has an edge over Link. Ness' aerials work very well for blocking the boomerang, and Link is probably the easiest character for Ness to combo.

I'm down for Ness = Samus. Like I said before, not sure about Ness vs. Luigi.

 

[NixxxoN]

If you're saying that, then there's really no point to even being in this thread.

Link is difficult to approach in general, but Luigi already has a poor approach. A particularly defensive Link can make life hell for Luigi.

Not too sure about him vs. Ness though. Most Ness matches are very high variance (comparably so with Falcon's matches), and I don't really have the experience in that match-up to make a call one way or the other, as there aren't many Luigi or Ness players that are similar in skill to me. I do think it's fairly close though.

Well, you forgot thinks like Luigi's recovery is vastly better. Luigi can kill Link easier than the other way round, by uair to up+b or by throwing out and edgeguarding. I dont think you should approach Link with Luigi... Luigi is more defensive than Link... Link will surely approach after you dodge many of his projectiles. Luigis floatyness works well as a combo breaker and his moving away shielding is a good defense against Links shieldbreaking capacity.
About Ness vs Link... I have tons of experience, I can tell you that Ness can use a similar tactic like Luigi. Waiting for a Links mistake to counterattack. Using utilt can be really cheap on Link, followed by a throw out.

Using that logic, who cares about puff vs Fox. It's probably one of the most lopsided matchups in the game, but if the puff player is better than the fox player, then the puff player will win most of the time.

Well im one of those players who dont like tiers and matchups discussion much, because the player is much more important. I pointed out that some matchups are so close that they should be considered "neutral" and not take so much effort on finding a winner/loser. On the other hand, yes, there are some really unbalanced matchups that we should point out, of course

 

[Deleted member]

Only dum Links fight against a similar skilled Luigi by the edge

this isn't a matchup chart for dum people

 

[earthadept]

Isn't not fighting by the edge a given for link?

 

[SuPeRbOoM]

link will not approach you until he has a clear opening

 

[asianaussie]

How is Luigi more defensive than Link...?

 

[Nintendude]

I've always thought that Link is a classic Luigi counter since Luigi really sucks at maneuvering around all of Link's garbage and he's really slow and eats high priority attacks when he gets too close. A Link that never approaches is ridiculously hard to fight with a slow character with a bad projectile.

As for the others I feel that Ness > Samus and Ness vs. Link can be even or Ness's favor.

 

[DemonicInfluence]

I'd like to discuss two matchups.

Jiggly vs. Fox
I don't think this is nearly as broken as it is currently listed in the matchup chart. I agree that Fox has lasers and massive combo power. And of course the dreaded usmash.

However, I feel like Jiggly has enough advantages in comboing and edgeguarding. Fox is both easily comboed with the standard uair -> rest and edgeguarded by just attacking fox out of his up+B.

Because of these advantages Jiggly has, Fox has to be very careful because a slight mistake could result in a grab and the loss of stock.
That's why I think it should be Fox>Jiggly not Fox >>Jiggly

Jiggly vs. Luigi
In my opinion, this matchup is way worse for Jiggly than the matchup against Fox. Although Luigi doesn't have ridiculously awesome combos, the good old uair spam -> up+B works fine. Also, Jiggly can't really take advantage of any mistakes Luigi makes since Jiggly has no real combo against Luigi.

Also, if Luigi gets a grab in the **** tent when Jiggly is around 30%, Jiggly loses a stock. This I feel is extremely ******** as even DI can't save you from this.
So I think Luigi >> Jiggly not Luigi > Jiggly.

 

[Blue Yoshi]

I can see Fox > Jiggly. Having played this matchup too many times, I know the matchup fairly well (and actually like the matchup... as a puff player). Although this is a slight overexaggeration, one good hit on fox that leads to a combo generally ends in death. Fox is one of the easier characters to combo, so once that hit is made, it can be assumed that Fox is dead if puff combos properly. Though what made this matchup >> in the past is that we had agreed that Puff has a hard time even getting into Fox, meaning that although one hit results in death, getting that one hit is nearly impossible.

Having played this matchup alot two months ago, I think the "nearly impossible to hit Fox" was a major overexaggeration. Puff can hit Fox, though it is harder than in many other matchups.

I don't know... I'd say it's borderline between > and >>, but I'd agree to >.

As for Puff vs Luigi... well... I haven't played many Luigis, so I don't have much experience in this matchup. Though one thing I noticed while playing Luigi is that if you get hit by dair or uair, you're dead (easy combo to up-B/down-B). Puff doesn't have many combos on Luigi, meaning that unlike most other characters (where getting a good hit results in high damage or death), you have to hit Luigi many times before you can try to kill him (I guess kind-of like brawl for puff...). I don't know who's approach is better between the two in this matchup, so I can't give a matchup value.

Hurray for actually re-discussing matchups again.

 

[t3h Icy]

Some Agreement:
Ness > Link to Ness = Link
Ness > Samus to Ness = Samus

Debating:
Ness > Luigi to Ness = Luigi

Someday.

Also I'm going to say Fox >> Jigglypuff. Fox's shine messes Jigglypuff horribly, Fox's Laser and Jigglypuff's slowness can make it a campfest (especially on Hyrule) and Fox generally vertically kills with combos into Uair and USmash. Jigglypuff does have easy Rest combos though, but I still strongly believe it's Jigglypuff's worst match-up if not Pikachu.

 

[asianaussie]

Don't forget Luigi ***** Jiggs. It's probably Luigi's best matchup. U-Smash, Up-B and Down-B all kill at ridiculously low damage, and a single grab in the **** tent, U-Air at 20-50%, or D-Air (plus following DI) at any % past 40 should be a kill.

 

[DMoogle]

I would definitely vote against Fox >> Jigglypuff, but my Fox sucks so I probably don't count.

Getting better though (at least last time I played)!

 

[t3h Icy]

Some Agreement:
Ness > Link to Ness = Link
Ness > Samus to Ness = Samus

Debating:
Ness > Luigi to Ness = Luigi
Fox >> Jigglypuff to Fox > Jigglypuff

Also it'd be nice to get one of Ness' done so the order goes back to the way it was before making the Tier List.

 

[DemonicInfluence]

Some Agreement:
Ness > Link to Ness = Link
Ness > Samus to Ness = Samus

Debating:
Ness > Luigi to Ness = Luigi

Someday.

Also I'm going to say Fox >> Jigglypuff. Fox's shine messes Jigglypuff horribly, Fox's Laser and Jigglypuff's slowness can make it a campfest (especially on Hyrule) and Fox generally vertically kills with combos into Uair and USmash. Jigglypuff does have easy Rest combos though, but I still strongly believe it's Jigglypuff's worst match-up if not Pikachu.

If it's on Hyrule, Jiggly can stay on the left side of the map and lol at fox's lasers. If fox gets grabbed there, it really is like loss of stock because Jiggly has such good edgeguarding against Fox.

While I agree shine is very annoying, it usually doesn't ko, just pushes Jiggly away from an easy combo, so it's not a massive dealbreaker.

Finally, I don't think the Pika matchup is as broken as the Fox one.

Don't forget Luigi ***** Jiggs. It's probably Luigi's best matchup. U-Smash, Up-B and Down-B all kill at ridiculously low damage, and a single grab in the **** tent, U-Air at 20-50%, or D-Air (plus following DI) at any % past 40 should be a kill.

THIS!!!

Also, I agree with

Ness > Link to Ness = Link
Ness > Samus to Ness = Samus

~ImNotPro

 

[rpotts]

I think pika v jiggs is more broken than fox v jiggs because pika takes out the one thing jiggs can do to fox, edgeguard. Now jiggs has to deal with even higher priority aerials and still gets killed at like 50 by upsmash > thunder. And pikas off stage edgeguarding (especially during rising pounds) is ridiculously easy to land and even better than fox's options. I'd say they are both between > and >>, leaning towards >>

 

[DemonicInfluence]

I think pika v jiggs is more broken than fox v jiggs because pika takes out the one thing jiggs can do to fox, edgeguard. Now jiggs has to deal with even higher priority aerials and still gets killed at like 50 by upsmash > thunder. And pikas off stage edgeguarding (especially during rising pounds) is ridiculously easy to land and even better than fox's options. I'd say they are both between > and >>, leaning towards >>

I agree Pika is pretty broken against Jiggly and is at least a >. However, I still feel like playing against Luigi is infinitely more frustrating and broken for Jiggs.

 

[SilentSlayers]

I agree... Luigi is the hardest for Jigglypuff.

 

[KoRoBeNiKi]

can I possibly bump this, I find this to be one of more important threads on the n64 database

also, your image was deleted.

 

[t3h Icy]

It's still up, but Imgur tends to do that occasionally. I can re-upload though if other people have problems.

Some Agreement:
Ness > Link to Ness = Link
Ness > Samus to Ness = Samus

Debating:
Ness > Luigi to Ness = Luigi
Fox >> Jigglypuff to Fox > Jigglypuff

I don't think anyone really cares anymore, but it just annoys me that Ness and Jigglypuff swapped, despite that's about to flip if any one of the four match-ups change.

 

[Nintendude]

I'd actually like to propose a different change: Falcon > Jiggly

I think I have a pretty good Jiggly but I'm completely helpless against good Falcons. She's just too slow to do anything and Falcon can at least trade with all of her aerials. Falcon is also very good at edgeguarding her, again due to his speed, aerial range, and priority. Really all Jiggly's got it the ability to kill Falcon almost every time she lands a good hit but a good Falcon can get around her almost entirely.

I also believe Ness > Samus. He's a really annoying target to hit because he's so small and his uair and up-tilt are really good at beating her aerials. He has a really easy time landing a quick combo, throwing her off, and then using dair to trade with up-B and survive (also, PK Thunder can make her face the wrong way).

 

[Stormcrow2]

I would agree with Ness = Link, but I would say Ness > Samus still. If the ness is really fluent with djc and cancelling, shouldn't have too much problem with a samus. Although there's always skill involved also, but that's just my opinion. Samus' beam is also pretty predictable unless used skillfully in a "combo", ness has the chance to absorb it up for a nice percentage. Samus can bomb roll out of getting hit with further ness utilts, but a good dcj fair and cancel before getting hit by the bombs could work against that.

 

[Fireblaster]

I would agree with Ness = Link, but I would say Ness > Samus still. If the ness is really fluent with djc and cancelling, shouldn't have too much problem with a samus. Although there's always skill involved also, but that's just my opinion. Samus' beam is also pretty predictable unless used skillfully in a "combo", ness has the chance to absorb it up for a nice percentage. Samus can bomb roll out of getting hit with further ness utilts, but a good dcj fair and cancel before getting hit by the bombs could work against that.

Several things WRONG about this argument:

• If samus can combo ness into the charge beam, then ness cannot absorb it, because it's a freaking combo
• Most good samus players will most likely try to fsmash or dair-bair ness off the stage and follow up with an easy as hell edgeguard
• How many horrible samus players (with down syndrome) have you played to think that samus even has a remote chance of getting hit by utilt twice?

 

[t3h Icy]

I personally prefer using Kirby against Jigglypuff, but that's out of preference.

Jigglypuff can combo Falcon fairly easily since he's a pretty big target, and that can lead into Rests. Though, a missed Rest is usually a stock unless Jigglypuff has really low percent.

Falcon also can't do his usual Uair and Usmash combos against Puff, and most of his attacks against her are just single hits, except for Fthrows and Dairs into techchasing. Maybe Fairs into something as well.

Though, Falcon has more range, power and lasts longer (excluding Rest), and I'm pretty sure Falcon has more priority.

I'd say Falcon = Jigglypuff; initially, it's hard for Jigglypuff to get the upperhand due to Falcon's superior attributes, but if Jigglypuff can get a hit, she has a much easier time comboing. If Falcon can keep Jigglypuff from hitting though, Falcon has the upperhand. Playing defensively is really safe with Falcon.

 

[kit]

I can see ness = samus... but i find it so ironic that it's her only even matchup (other than dittos) and its my hardest matchup to play as samus =/ lol

 

[Nintendude]

I personally prefer using Kirby against Jigglypuff, but that's out of preference.

Jigglypuff can combo Falcon fairly easily since he's a pretty big target, and that can lead into Rests. Though, a missed Rest is usually a stock unless Jigglypuff has really low percent.

Falcon also can't do his usual Uair and Usmash combos against Puff, and most of his attacks against her are just single hits, except for Fthrows and Dairs into techchasing. Maybe Fairs into something as well.

Though, Falcon has more range, power and lasts longer (excluding Rest), and I'm pretty sure Falcon has more priority.

I'd say Falcon = Jigglypuff; initially, it's hard for Jigglypuff to get the upperhand due to Falcon's superior attributes, but if Jigglypuff can get a hit, she has a much easier time comboing. If Falcon can keep Jigglypuff from hitting though, Falcon has the upperhand. Playing defensively is really safe with Falcon.

Jigglypuff has a harder time getting Falcon into death combos than you think. The only way an aerial leads to a death combo reliably is if you land right after using it, but that's really hard to do against Falcon. The best ways to get hits in is to poke with a weak nair but that isn't gonna lead to anything. Basically, Jiggly has to land a grab or drill to kill Falcon quickly and that's a lot easier said than done.

Uair combos still work to an extent against Puff. At the very least it's enough that the individual hits that follow will put her into a bad position. She has a really hard getting down from the air because of Falcon's Uair and if she goes for the edge she has to get around Uair and Bair. Uair kills her at a somewhat low % as well.

As for Ness vs. Samus, good Nesses give me the most trouble besides Fox/Falcons. The problem is just you can't hit that stupid kid if he doesn't rush in. He can also attempt to catch you with DJC uairs from below then escape before you can punish a missed one.

 

[KoRoBeNiKi]

I personally think Samus's only even matchup is Ness and possibly Jigglypuff.

for the Falcon Jigglypuff matchup, I usually have problems with it, but possibly due to the way I approach.

 

[Blue Yoshi]

I'd say Puff vs Falcon is very slight advantage for Falcon... probably not enough for a >... but it's definitely either = or > for Falcon.

 

[SuPeRbOoM]

falcon vs jiggly is even

 

[Stormcrow2]

Several things WRONG about this argument:

• If samus can combo ness into the charge beam, then ness cannot absorb it, because it's a freaking combo
• Most good samus players will most likely try to fsmash or dair-bair ness off the stage and follow up with an easy as hell edgeguard
• How many horrible samus players (with down syndrome) have you played to think that samus even has a remote chance of getting hit by utilt twice?

- I said "unless used in a combo". of course there are times when it is impossible to absorb

- I would agree. Samus' bair priority is deadly to ness, and when I play as ness vs. any samus, this is usually how 90% of my deaths happen. However, ness is "easy as hell to edgeguard" with any character. If you knock a ness off the stage, and they aren't able to recover with just their second jump, then ness should always end up dead if you are a good player. This is the major downside of ness's character itself.

- I haven't played any samus's as ness that are stupid enough to get hit with utilt twice. That's why I stated it as a small advantage samus has over ness. Of course a samus that lets a ness utilt for two hits is ****ing stupid.

Maybe my statements were "wrong" in your opinion? I'm not sure. But I've played a lot of ness, and I am not questioning the way you play or your smash experience. I just don't think the Ness/Samus matchup is that important to discuss. It's just my opinion that Ness > Samus, but only very slightly. I go by player skill as 99% of the game anyway and don't pay much attention to tier list/matchups. Just my opinion.