The New Counter Game: Read the **** Rules or the Thread Get's Locked

[Da-D-Mon-109]

:flame:
Thanks for the Luck. And Wouw, thank's for the warm welcome.

Banette @ Lum Berry
Adamant/Insomnia
4hp/252attack/252speed
Taunt
ShadowClaw
Knock-Off
Body Slam

Taunt means that you can't use Softboiled or Toxic, while the Lum Berry negates Toxic. And being a Ghost type makes your Fighting moves worthless. That means that I can just sit and beat you down for as long as I want to. Easy to counter, but it gets the job done.
:flame:

 

[WouW]

Actually, Toxicroak was the current counter.

 

[Da-D-Mon-109]

:flame:
Hm.... how to kill a Toxicroak..

Leafeon @ Muscleband
Adamant/Leaf Guard
82hp/252attack/176speed
SwordDance
LeafBlade
Return
X-Scizzor

With these evs, Leafeon definitely outspeeds Toxicroak by 1 point. And the best move that Toxicroak has to use to kill Leafon would only 2 hit kill if both did max damage, and it would only be a 2 hit kill by 1 point. Meanwhile, with the Sword Dance Boost from surviving two Cross-Chops, Return is going to be close to a guaranteed instant kill, without the band, minimal power. With it, it is guaranteed.
:flame:

 

[c3gill]

Toxicroak can do 51+% with Cross Chop to that Leafeon...... your 2HKOed. Return does 66% at best, before SD. That Leafeon doesnt counter.

 

[Pink Reaper]

Never assume max damage on every hit, assume average damage, which wouldn't be enough to beat Leafeon.

@Leafeon


Drifblim@Leftovers
Bold/Unburden
252Hp/120Def/136 SpAtk
-Stockpile
-Shadowball
-Spit Up
-HP Fire

Even a +2 Leaf Blade doesn't 2HKO me and shadow Ball will be an easy 2HKO

 

[WouW]

Wasn't there a debate about that a while ago resulting in 'a counter has to work 100% and therefore assume max damage against you and min dealt by you'?

 

[Circa]

Wasn't there a debate about that a while ago resulting in 'a counter has to work 100% and therefore assume max damage against you and min dealt by you'?

I'm guessing that at least should be the rule, because there's always that chance. It's not like the odds of it happening are crazy low and hack-like or anything.

And if this ruling does come back how I think it will, then I actually have a counter that works on Toxicroak guaranteed (it can't even double crit to kill it...which isn't considered either), and it's still countered by Drifblim, so I can put that in the open space if need be.

 

[Da-D-Mon-109]

:flame:
I went online and decided to put all of this into a stat calculator and damage calculator as well, just to check my stuff since we were still talking about it. Toxicroak only has a 3% chance of getting a kill, and only if both Cross Chops do max damage. Return has a 100% Chance of a 2 hit kill, or a 1 hit kill with the Sword Dance. In all honesty, wouldn't the chances of Leafeon living through the dual Cross Chops outweigh the chances of it getting 2 max power hits? This is just a thinking question though. If you want to make sure it fully counters, consider this ev-spread, and now counter Driftblim.

82hp/200attack/52defense/176speed


Still gets the 2 hit return or definite instant kill sword-danced return, and now definitely outlives dual Cross Chops. But was this really necesary?
:flame:

 

[c3gill]

I went online and decided to put all of this into a stat calculator and damage calculator as well, just to check my stuff since we were still talking about it. Toxicroak only has a 3% chance of getting a kill, and only if both Cross Chops do max damage. Return has a 100% Chance of a 2 hit kill, or a 1 hit kill with the Sword Dance. In all honesty, wouldn't the chances of Leafeon living through the dual Cross Chops outweigh the chances of it getting 2 max power hits? This is just a thinking question though. If you want to make sure it fully counters, consider this ev-spread, and now counter Driftblim.

82hp/200attack/52defense/176speed


Still gets the 2 hit return or definite instant kill sword-danced return, and now definitely outlives dual Cross Chops. But was this really necesary?

c3gill is correct in this situation however. If there is a chance your counter will fail, then it is not a 100% counter, which is what this game calls for. You can't say "I have an 80% chance of surviving" and be a counter because there's still a 20% chance you'll fail.

Counters must be 100%, they will always KO and never be KO'd themselves.

Spoiler

this is on page 19 of this thread

3% is more than enough. In my mind, the only reason a counter should EVER lose is because of an unpredicted critical hit- which is something that boils down to luck, rather than skill. As this is a theory game, critical hits shouldnt be banked on to make or break counters (another discussion we had, lol). that 3% chance is very plausible, and not terribly unlikely.

Even though 97% is a very good chance, it isnt a definate counter- which is what this game calls for. WouW argued it before, so its not as if this point isnt debatable, but a true counter assumes it takes max damage, does min, and still gets the KO.

 

[WouW]

What about the moves with less than 100% accuracy? Should we call Air Slash auto-fail as you have 5% of missing? I've asked this a lot, but you never answered this.

 

[c3gill]

What about the moves with less than 100% accuracy? Should we call Air Slash auto-fail as you have 5% of missing? I've asked this a lot, but you never answered this.

shouldnt we assume moves with 70%+ accuracy always hit? i think that is reasonable.

I dunno, honestly, I think we should all get together and decide- vote on it?

 

[Cease Tick]

Above sounds reasonable.

Never assume max damage on every hit, assume average damage, which wouldn't be enough to beat Leafeon.

@Leafeon


Drifblim@Leftovers
Bold/Unburden
252Hp/120Def/136 SpAtk
-Stockpile
-Shadowball
-Spit Up
-HP Fire

Even a +2 Leaf Blade doesn't 2HKO me and shadow Ball will be an easy 2HKO

Bibarel @ Letovers
Careful/Unaware
252 Hp/160 Def/96 Sp.Def
-Taunt
-Thunder Wave
-Super Fang
-Waterfall

Thunder Wave so you're slower, then taunt so you can't recover. Waterfall does min 20%, and HP Fire maxes at 9%. I'll refresh taunt before you can recover because you'll be paralyzed. Waterfall will eventully bring you down. Unaware ignores Stockpile.

 

[ss118]

Hitmonlee @ Life Orb
Limber: Jolly
4 HP, 252 Attack, 252 Speed
Close Combat
Stone Edge
Sucker Punch
Mach Punch

comes in on every move and OHKOs with Close Combat

 

[Circa]

@Hitmonlee

Slowbro@Leftovers
Bold/Own Tempo
252 HP/252 DEF/4 SATK
-Surf
-Psychic
-Ice Beam
-Slack Off

Either I can stall you until you kill yourself with LO, or I attack with psychic for a OHKO when you can only 3HKO at best with sucker punch.

shouldnt we assume moves with 70%+ accuracy always hit? i think that is reasonable.

I dunno, honestly, I think we should all get together and decide- vote on it?

I was actually thinking of something more like the "If anything can go wrong, it will" concept for the person countering. If it doesn't have 100% accuracy, then it can't be used to counter the Pokemon above you. The person who counters after, however, would still have to apply by the usefulness of the move as though it had 100% accuracy (unless it's something like Zap Cannon, because that would just be absurd).

So basically, it can't be used as a counter, but it can be used as an anti-counter. Sort of like focus sash.

EDIT: And for Zap Cannon or Dynamic Punch, I'd probably say it follows the same rules, only it can only hit on the turn after the switch-in. You know, because that means it missed on the turn of the switch-in, thus applying to the 50% accuracy. Granted, I don't think anyone would use that anyway, so I don't think we really have to include that in the rules...

 

[WouW]

Spiritomb @ Leftovers
Impish/Pressure
252HP/252Atk/4Def
Will-o-Wisp
Rest
Sleep Talk
Sucker Punch

Burns you and waits until you die from burn and LO.

 

[c3gill]

I was actually thinking of something more like the "If anything can go wrong, it will" concept for the person countering. If it doesn't have 100% accuracy, then it can't be used to counter the Pokemon above you. The person who counters after, however, would still have to apply by the usefulness of the move as though it had 100% accuracy (unless it's something like Zap Cannon, because that would just be absurd).

So basically, it can't be used as a counter, but it can be used as an anti-counter. Sort of like focus sash.

EDIT: And for Zap Cannon or Dynamic Punch, I'd probably say it follows the same rules, only it can only hit on the turn after the switch-in. You know, because that means it missed on the turn of the switch-in, thus applying to the 50% accuracy. Granted, I don't think anyone would use that anyway, so I don't think we really have to include that in the rules...

I think thats going too far- your punishing the counter too much- what about moves with a 95% hit rate? Its POSSIBLE for the move to miss 15 times in a row, so it couldnt be used to counter. Heck, look how many sets Toxic is on- its an 85% move, your killing the ability to use one of the most common moves in the game!

I said 70% and up because generally those moves are reliable to hit. They are fairly accurate. Think about it this way- If you would be willing to use it in the competitive setting, it should be able to be used here. No one is using Zap Cannon in singles, and no one is running Dynamic Punch without No Guard.

On the same note, I believe that we should add a rule that states that you are awakened from sleep 2 turns after induced, if confused hit every other move (and no damage to self!!!), if paralyzed hit every other move, if infatuated hit every other move, etc. This is to define how often a pokemon can attack while statused in this game. If someone has 2 statuses (para-fusion), I believe we should treat that as 1 status, simply for consistency (your move hits half of the time). Obviously we COULD treat parafusion as 2 statuses and give you a 1/4 moves hit ratio, but I dont feel that is needed. overkill, imo.

thoughts?

 

[Circa]

I think thats going too far- your punishing the counter too much- what about moves with a 95% hit rate? Its POSSIBLE for the move to miss 15 times in a row, so it couldnt be used to counter. Heck, look how many sets Toxic is on- its an 85% move, your killing the ability to use one of the most common moves in the game!

I said 70% and up because generally those moves are reliable to hit. They are fairly accurate. Think about it this way- If you would be willing to use it in the competitive setting, it should be able to be used here. No one is using Zap Cannon in singles, and no one is running Dynamic Punch without No Guard.

On the same note, I believe that we should add a rule that states that you are awakened from sleep 2 turns after induced, if confused hit every other move (and no damage to self!!!), if paralyzed hit every other move, if infatuated hit every other move, etc. This is to define how often a pokemon can attack while statused in this game. If someone has 2 statuses (para-fusion), I believe we should treat that as 1 status, simply for consistency (your move hits half of the time). Obviously we COULD treat parafusion as 2 statuses and give you a 1/4 moves hit ratio, but I dont feel that is needed. overkill, imo.

thoughts?

Oh yeah...I forgot about moves like those. I was just thinking attack moves. :\

I guess that's fine, but that's basically saying every move in the game hits no matter what other than a select few that people usually avoid anyway, so then the rule is basically null. There are only a couple of moves that people generally use that fall under that clause, and they're moves that people would probably argue to keep in anyway (hypnosis, for one?). Just a thing to think about.

I do like the status idea, however. Expecting someone to counter under a 25% hit ratio sort of ruins the game, if you ask me, so nice idea.

 

[ss118]

@ Slowbro

Slowbro @ Leftovers
Own Tempo: Bold
252 HP, 252 Defense, 4 Sp. Defense
Ice Beam
Hidden Power[Electric]
Slack Off
Calm Mind

Comes in and CMs up

 

[Da-D-Mon-109]

:flame:
First of all, I think that it's kinda unimaginative to counter a pokemon with itself. Mirror Matches, even with different moves, are so lame. THE EVIL TWIN/CLONE FIGHT IS SO OVERDONE!

Second, I'm sorry for causing all of the controversy about my Leafon fighting Toxicroak. It's just that in my Ap-Statistics class (I'm much smarter than I act ot I wouldn't possibly be in those classes, although I need to properly use the information I learn), anything under the 5% range is considered insignificant by most, so I thought that Toxicroak lucking out and possibly winning only less than 3% of the time would be easily oversited. I'll prepare more for the pokemon I'm countering, rather than trying to defeat the next enemy. And I'm sorry for causing all of these problems. Have Umbreon ban me for spamming if I keep it up.

And to counter Slowbro,

Probopass @ Leftovers
Modest/Sturdy
4hp/252specialattack/252specialdefense
Taunt
Toxic
Thunder
Earth Power

Naturally outspeeds, then Taunts to prohibit use of Slackoff and Calm Mind, then Toxic to make your Leftovers worthless, then Thunderbolts to try to end it faster, with Taunt every now and then to keep you down.

Wanna know how I know that I can be much smarter than I appear to be? I made a 1720 on the SATs, and I never study, usually sleep in class, and spend more time driving, eating, sleeping, messing with friends, or playing games than Studying. It was also my first time taking the SATS. My issue is that I oversite simple details, and never fully use what knowledge I gain to its full potential.
:flame:

 

[Pink Reaper]

@Articanus

Clefable@Leftovers
Carefull/Magic Guard
252Hp/252SpDef/4Def
-Cosmic Power
-Toxic
-Softboiled
-Meteor Mash

;o

Edit: Still works against Probopass :D

 

[Da-D-Mon-109]

:flame:
MOONMONSTER! BAD MOONMONSTER! DIE EVIL ALIEN SCOURGE, DIE!

Hariyama @ Salac Berry
Jolly/Guts
6hp/252attack/252speed
Substitute
BellyDrum
CloseCombat
Faint Attack

Poison me and I get stronger, Cosmic Power won't save you from multiple Outspeeding Close Combats, you won't be able to heal fast enough, and Meteor Mash won't let you kill me in time.

Substitutes the first turn, then Belly Drums. Salac Berry speeds me up, and then I start putting the hurting on People! Yeah!

:flame:

 

[zrky]

@hariyama

Staraptor@life orb
adamant/intimidate
4HP/252Atk/252speed
~substitute
~brave bird
~roost
~fly

Iam very sure this works

 

[WouW]

Kabutops @ Liechi Berry
Adamant/Swift Swim
200HP/56Spe/252Atk
Stone Edge
Waterfall
Natural Gift
Rain Dance

No CC on Staraptor FTL.

 

[Cease Tick]

Vs. Kabutops:
Miltank @ Leftovers
Adamant/Scrappy
20 HP/236 Atk/252 Def
Earthquake
Return
Punishment
Milk Drink

Outspeeds unless you use rain dance. Can take two rain-boosted Waterfalls or a Natural Gift followed by a +1 rain-boosted Waterfall. Earthquake 2HKOs

 

[karthik_king]

Gallade@Choice Band
252 Atk/ 252 Spe/ 6 Hp
Adamant
Close COmbat

 

[c3gill]

Spiritomb @ Leftovers
Impish: pressure
128 Sp Def / 252 HP / 128 Def
Curse
Rest
confuse ray
taunt

go crazy.

 

[Cease Tick]

Clefable @ Life Orb
Bold/Magic Guard
252 Hp/152 Def/104 Sp.Atk
-Calm Mind
-Thunderbolt
-Ice Beam
-Softboiled

Takes no damage from curse or confusion. I outspeed, so I can Calm Mind once when it wears off before you refresh it. eventually I'll have enough boosts to kill.

 

[WouW]

Banette @ Black Sludge
Timid/Insomnia
252SpA/252Def/4HP
Trick
Imprison
Rest
Will-o-Wisp

GOD**** **** HELL **** **** **** **** **** ********************************************************************************************

Vs. Clefable:

Ursaring @ Flame Orb
Guts/Adamant
252Spe/252Atk/4HP
Facade
Close Combat
Stone Edge
Swords Dance

Easily takes a hit, outspeeds and OHKOs.

 

[Platypus]

I really don't get the point of Flame Orb'd Guts. The 210-power Normal-type attack is scarcely worth it.

Dusclops w/Leftovers
Impish/Pressure
30 HP/ 200 Atk./ 180 Def./ 100 Sp. Def.
+ Counter
+ Protect
+ Curse
+ Focus Punch
It isn't easy to fail this hard.

 

[WouW]

While it may sound 'scarcely worth it' you have a pretty bulky poké there which is easily OHKO'd by a +2 Stone Edge.

 

[Cease Tick]

Vs. Ursaring:
Uxie @ Leftovers
Bold/Levitate
252 Hp/252 Def/4 Sp.Atk
-Psychic
-Protect
-Reflect
-Skill Swap
Keep in mind that I outrun you, and that without Guts burn cuts your attack.

I switch in as you SD (any other move leads to inferior damage output, I've checked).
Flame orb activates

I use skill swap to take away Guts and leave you still burned.
You attack with Facade for max 50.28
I heal, you take burn damage
Ursaring-87.5%
Uxie-55.97%

I reflect
You use facade for max 25.42%
I heal, you take burn damage
Ursaring-75%
Uxie-36.8%

I use psychic for min 30.75%
You Facade for max 25.42%
I heal, you take burn damage
Ursaring-31.75%
Uxie-17.63%

I use protect
You SD, I guess
I heal, you take burn damage
Ursaring-19.25
Uxie-23.88

I psychic for the kill

I've run through other scenarios, such as you SDing again on turn 2 or on turn 3, and they all still end up with you dying.

Toxic Orb >>> Flame Orb

 

[Pink Reaper]

Actually, you ran the scenario wrong. Flame Orb would activate the turn Ursaring switched in, so he'd get a guts boost on whatever he attacked you with first. You'd take 64% on the switch from Facade. If he SD's on the Skill Swap no matter what the next attack you take would kill you.

Remember, the counter game works as if you switch in the turn after your foe switches, which is why they get the first hit.

 

[Cease Tick]

No, I was assuming he came in to revenge kill something and I switch in that turn.

 

[Pink Reaper]

Either way he'd still get Flame Orb activation. It activates the end of the turn he switches in. Since it's impossible for him to switch in and attack the same turn it should be assumed that whatever counter is coming in comes in on the next turn, after flame orb is already activated.

Lets go with this

Torterra@Leftovers
Impish/Overgrow
252Hp/248Spe/8Atk
-Wood Hammer
-Superpower
-Earthquake
-Protect

Takes a beastly 99% on the switch(Maximum) and manages to out speed you and Protect. After the burn damage from 2 turns you'll have lost enough HP to be OHKO'd by Superpower.

Edit: What kind of pathetic *** bear gets out sped by a tortoise

 

[Cease Tick]

I meant he got sent in after I killed one of his pokes with something else. I switch before flame orb activates. But whatever, go with torterra because it works.

 

[WouW]

Countering =/= revenge killing.

Glaceon @ Life Orb
Timid/Snow Cloak
252SpA/252Spe/4HP
Ice Beam
HP Fighting
Shadow Ball
Fake Tears

Enjoy taking about 250% damage from Ice Beam.

 

[Circa]

Blaziken@Choice Band
Adamant/Blaze
4 HP/252 ATK/252 SPE
Flare Blitz
Super Power
Stone Edge
Sky Uppercut

Takes the hit on the switch-in and outspeeds for a OHKO.

 

[WouW]

Uxie @ Leftovers
Modest/Levitate
136Spe/200SpA/172SpD
Psychic
Yawn
Reflect
Thunderbolt

Takes 99% max from Flare Blitz, outspeeds by one point and OHKOs with Psychic.

 

[Pink Reaper]

Hypno@Salac Berry
Modest/Insomnia
252Hp/252SpAtk/4SpDef
-Nasty Plot
-Psychic
-Shadow Ball
-HP Fighting

 

[Cease Tick]

Countering =/= revenge killing.

No I'd still have to switch in to it giving him a free turn, but Ursaring would have been sent out ofter one of his pokes died. So it'd be his first turn out and flame orb wouldn't be active yet.