http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=np_5BHmaSI4
0:28 on - INTENSE
We need that for smash. Then Smash is awesome. more "HOLY ****" moments!
0:28 on - INTENSE
We need that for smash. Then Smash is awesome. more "HOLY ****" moments!
-
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The new and improved NORTH CAROLINA locator thread
- Thread starter PacStrife
- Start date
nicaboy
Smash Champion
if that wasnt homo i dont know what is lolhellllllllllll yeah
smash with me dude
i will mm anyone roy vs sheik or fox
wait a second i meant marth ha ha roy top teir aint happen son although he is one bad *** dude
Karn, I find that what you're saying can either be defined as "spacing" or simply being safe. I think it may be important that I establish what I believe is defensive right now: defensive play is a style that forces the opponent to appraoch due to projectile camping or just a general unwillingness to approach on one's own.
Spacing and tricking (mindgaming is overused) the opponent are the words I would use to achieve the effects that you have listed.
So then, my character balance thing was correct?
Oops, sorry bro =p.
Having too much pull in a game discourages offensive play. Since there is no extra reward for going up to an opponent and struggling to score a hit besides the hit itself, why should anyone approach (cept MK)?
This pull factor is composed of many elements:
-Floatiness
-minimal shieldstun/shielddrop time
-minimal projectile cooldown time
-many effective projectiles
-minimal hitstun
-multiple airdodges
-the ability to airdodge before hitstun ends
These elements combined force Brawl to be heavily inclined towards camping/overall defensive (by my terms) play. Once people realize (or have realized) this, there will be no incentive to choose a character that has to appraoch or that has an inferior style of camping. Before MK was discovered to be God tier, Snake dominated tournaments. If there was any push at all, Snake could not be as powerful/popular as he is now due to the fact that other characters could take advantage of his mistakes and weight and even the playing field (if only by a little).
Oh yeah, and, since we are playing a video game here, I'd like to make the point that defensive play is really dull to watch. Seeing tons of nades, lasers, waddle dees, spotdodge to grabs, and lasers/gyros per match doesn't really measure much skill either when you can simply camp then use a quick roll/spotdodge/floatiness and airdodge to reset the situation again and again. I'm not talking about noob camping, I'm talking about higher level players that realize the effects of every move, and switch up their camping intelligently.
There's more to this than I can remember now, but I'm tired and I'll continue this later on today. This is fun Karn.
ZIO, that was insane!!! That game looks pretty fun.
Spacing and tricking (mindgaming is overused) the opponent are the words I would use to achieve the effects that you have listed.
So then, my character balance thing was correct?
Oops, sorry bro =p.
Having too much pull in a game discourages offensive play. Since there is no extra reward for going up to an opponent and struggling to score a hit besides the hit itself, why should anyone approach (cept MK)?
This pull factor is composed of many elements:
-Floatiness
-minimal shieldstun/shielddrop time
-minimal projectile cooldown time
-many effective projectiles
-minimal hitstun
-multiple airdodges
-the ability to airdodge before hitstun ends
These elements combined force Brawl to be heavily inclined towards camping/overall defensive (by my terms) play. Once people realize (or have realized) this, there will be no incentive to choose a character that has to appraoch or that has an inferior style of camping. Before MK was discovered to be God tier, Snake dominated tournaments. If there was any push at all, Snake could not be as powerful/popular as he is now due to the fact that other characters could take advantage of his mistakes and weight and even the playing field (if only by a little).
Oh yeah, and, since we are playing a video game here, I'd like to make the point that defensive play is really dull to watch. Seeing tons of nades, lasers, waddle dees, spotdodge to grabs, and lasers/gyros per match doesn't really measure much skill either when you can simply camp then use a quick roll/spotdodge/floatiness and airdodge to reset the situation again and again. I'm not talking about noob camping, I'm talking about higher level players that realize the effects of every move, and switch up their camping intelligently.
There's more to this than I can remember now, but I'm tired and I'll continue this later on today. This is fun Karn.
ZIO, that was insane!!! That game looks pretty fun.
Criosphinx
Smash Lord
- Joined
- Feb 22, 2008
- Messages
- 1,916
I love that video so hard.
The complexity of that parry is beyond most things even capable in brawl / melee. It's comparable to like... perfect shielding every hit of ROB's Dsmash, 6 times in a row.
lord karn
Smash Master
I would consider a marth that is staying right outside of someone's range but never making a direct attack to be defensive. I guess your definition emphasizes the forcing to approach, while my definition only relies on forcing to do any kind of action. Defensive style to me is mainly reactive, relying on responses to the opponents moves. However, don't confuse reactive playing style with no prediction. The best defensive style, I think, would bait the opponent into action, and then respond with a punishment. Offensive style is rushing down the opponent, overwhelming them, and forcing them into bad situations. I guess my definition is very arbitrary, as both offense and defense try to force the opponent to act, so the border becomes unclear. I pretty much think that fighting games in general are all about baiting. Anyways, I think this argument is mainly semantics and people probably share your definition of defense/offense more than mine.
As for low tier, melee was more rewarding because all characters in melee had technical depth. I can beat a lot of people with mewtwo because I'm a better player and I know his combos. However, I don't really think mewtwo has a chance at all against most of the high tiers (except sheik) when they are played right. You can create a pretty much unpenetrable strategy vs most of the low tier characters in melee. You don't even really have to outthink me if you're doing the right thing. However, this only occurs when both players have the requisite technical skill. There is so little technical skill in brawl that it's much easier for the higher tier characters lock out the low tiers pretty much completely. I think there are, over all, more of those random matches where certain low tiers do well against a high tier character in brawl, but overall low tier is less rewarding in brawl, so you are pretty much correct.
Again, why is the discouragement of offensive play bad? The better player still wins in brawl, and the most important part of the match is still the approach. If you can't approach someone you aren't going to beat any players who know what they are doing. I tend to view camping as an extended part of approach. You projectile spam while slowly gaining board control until you have enough of an advantage where you can attack. It's just that each approach is more long and drawn out, and the approach itself is less important. That's why consistency in an individual match is arguably more important in brawl. If you mess up your camping you lose a lot of board control and throw your approach way off. Brawl is a slower game, more about attrition and gradual build up of board control, which is way more important than it was in melee. The goal, killing the opponent, is the same, but the method of killing is significantly different. However, it is not necessarily bad. Brawl definitely still rewards the more skilled player.
Brawl is definitely boring to watch. I agree completely. However, I really enjoy playing it. As I said before, I enjoy all three games pretty much the same. It really just depends on which one I feel like playing at a particular time. However, fun is different to different people, so I can't really argue that brawl is fun or melee is not, etc. There are those people that enjoy watching brawl vids, but it's probably because they never played melee.
I must go to bed now, though, because I have a test tomorrow.
Vilt
Smash Lord
PP we need to get you into 2D fighting games. Check this out if you liked Zio's vid.
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=gVmc5ZepdVs
Edit: I ****ing love the commentator.
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=gVmc5ZepdVs
Edit: I ****ing love the commentator.
Vilt
Smash Lord
Hellz yeah Phoot. We need some more 64 up in this *****. XD
Krackshot Kroc
Smash Ace
I personally think all three games have their own merits, but like Karn said, I think all three games are fun. I like Brawl the best out of the three, but that doesn't necessarily mean that I think it's better than both 64 and Melee. I prefer Brawl's mechanics more than Melee and 64's (I know competitive wise that's not too common), and I enjoy what the game has to offer. However, preferences and opinions aside, I didn't find Brawl to be an improvement over Melee, just as I didn't find Melee to be an improvement over 64.
Although I don't think this pertains to what everyone is talking about, one thing I've noticed though is that people say that Brawl is more friendly towards spam, which is untrue. Melee has just as much "spam" as Brawl has. I think spam is a very vague word, for example people complain about Snake's F-tilt and U-tilt spam. Well what about Peach's D-Smash in Melee? Basically all competitive Peach players constantly use that move, what about Falco's short hop laser? You'll be seeing a lot of that too. Sorry I posted this even though it was irrelevant to what we were talking about, I just had to get it off my chest.
As for Brawl being boring to watch, I agree. Compared to Melee or even 64 Brawl isn't particularly exciting to look at. Melee is the main game that people love to watch mainly because it's the flashiest of the 3.
Although I don't think this pertains to what everyone is talking about, one thing I've noticed though is that people say that Brawl is more friendly towards spam, which is untrue. Melee has just as much "spam" as Brawl has. I think spam is a very vague word, for example people complain about Snake's F-tilt and U-tilt spam. Well what about Peach's D-Smash in Melee? Basically all competitive Peach players constantly use that move, what about Falco's short hop laser? You'll be seeing a lot of that too. Sorry I posted this even though it was irrelevant to what we were talking about, I just had to get it off my chest.
As for Brawl being boring to watch, I agree. Compared to Melee or even 64 Brawl isn't particularly exciting to look at. Melee is the main game that people love to watch mainly because it's the flashiest of the 3.
Dark Hart
Rejected by Azua
I'd like to add that I <3 Melee.
And yes Melee is pretty fun.
Boo, play Melee bro.
I played Marth the other day in Brawl, and I just can't get a handle on him. He's so weird to play to me.
And yes Melee is pretty fun.
Melee has tons of holy **** moments. Also, is that MvC? Looks fun to play.
@ Karn:
The better player in Brawl would be defined as the one who has the most patience, or the one who picks a better campy character, since disadvantageous matchups are more difficult to overcome due to lack of technical skill.
Camping, to me, doesn't seem like it's appraoching at all. You don't have to gain any board control either (unless you're ROB and you want to gimp), it's just intelligent spamming mixed in with some easy defensive options when the opponent gets close to a counterattack to a reset of the previous situation.
The thing is, you don't have to appraoch when you have a campier character than your opponent. You can force them into attacking you since your grenades may outprioritize/outnumber your opponents' lasers or Waddles Dees or Gyros or fireballs or thunder jolts or whatever (this is not just Snake that can do this sort of thing, but he's the best at it, hence his tier position).
I would argue that consistency is just as important in Melee, only there is tech skill consistency to replace camping (through whatever means) consistency. Not only this, but any and all mistakes made in Melee are punished harder, which leave less of a margin for error than in Brawl.
Stage control was certainly about the same level of valuableness in Melee too. Fox pushes Falco to the edge of the stage and begins to DD/WD. The Falco doesn't have as many easy outs he can take to avoid this situation, and thereby could be gimped far easier than in Brawl, where a simple spotdodge to roll recitifies any previous mistakes, and allows for the camping situation to reset once more.
Again, the more skilled player is almost determined by their character choice (top tiers, not all over the board) as much as their individual camping skill in Brawl.
How did your test go bro?
@Vilt: I've seen the video once before, but maaan that is still so cool! I actually have that game, believe it or not lol. I didn't know you could do all of that stuff though.
Ph00tbag, why you so good?
@KSK, I'm not arguing about individual spam moves so much as their methods used and the way that each game engines allows for the reliability of that spam.
@DH: I can teach you Marth, but he's essentially a slightly more defensive Meta Knight. In the event MK gets banned, you might need a backup huh =p?
The better player in Brawl would be defined as the one who has the most patience, or the one who picks a better campy character, since disadvantageous matchups are more difficult to overcome due to lack of technical skill.
Camping, to me, doesn't seem like it's appraoching at all. You don't have to gain any board control either (unless you're ROB and you want to gimp), it's just intelligent spamming mixed in with some easy defensive options when the opponent gets close to a counterattack to a reset of the previous situation.
The thing is, you don't have to appraoch when you have a campier character than your opponent. You can force them into attacking you since your grenades may outprioritize/outnumber your opponents' lasers or Waddles Dees or Gyros or fireballs or thunder jolts or whatever (this is not just Snake that can do this sort of thing, but he's the best at it, hence his tier position).
I would argue that consistency is just as important in Melee, only there is tech skill consistency to replace camping (through whatever means) consistency. Not only this, but any and all mistakes made in Melee are punished harder, which leave less of a margin for error than in Brawl.
Stage control was certainly about the same level of valuableness in Melee too. Fox pushes Falco to the edge of the stage and begins to DD/WD. The Falco doesn't have as many easy outs he can take to avoid this situation, and thereby could be gimped far easier than in Brawl, where a simple spotdodge to roll recitifies any previous mistakes, and allows for the camping situation to reset once more.
Again, the more skilled player is almost determined by their character choice (top tiers, not all over the board) as much as their individual camping skill in Brawl.
How did your test go bro?
@Vilt: I've seen the video once before, but maaan that is still so cool! I actually have that game, believe it or not lol. I didn't know you could do all of that stuff though.
Ph00tbag, why you so good?
@KSK, I'm not arguing about individual spam moves so much as their methods used and the way that each game engines allows for the reliability of that spam.
@DH: I can teach you Marth, but he's essentially a slightly more defensive Meta Knight. In the event MK gets banned, you might need a backup huh =p?
Krackshot Kroc
Smash Ace
@ PP- I know PP, I was just stating my opinion on the matter, I wasn't trying to argue with you at all 
Haha bro, much bro love man. Just trying to show you what I thought of things since I wasn't sure exactly what your goal was.
You're goin to Billfest right?
You're goin to Billfest right?
Krackshot Kroc
Smash Ace
Haha appreciate that PP, yeah I was just trying to show what I thought of things.
Billfest? I believe I am, I have to talk to Lucas about it
Criosphinx
Smash Lord
- Joined
- Feb 22, 2008
- Messages
- 1,916
Zio's video is Street Fighter 3: 3rd Strike.
Vilt's is MVC2.
@KSK: You should go, we can play and stuff.
@Crio, prciate that.
@Crio, prciate that.
Dark Hart
Rejected by Azua
KSK: We are going, Me , you, Shady, Uncle, and 030
PP: If MK is banned, I'm going Melee only, maybe doubles in tourneys, not sure yet.
PP: If MK is banned, I'm going Melee only, maybe doubles in tourneys, not sure yet.
Lol aight.
More time for me to play with ya then I guess.
More time for me to play with ya then I guess.
Dark Hart
Rejected by Azua
I guess! ^_^
lord karn
Smash Master
Patience is a skill, though. Picking a campy character does not mean more skill. You can suck and lose with a campy character pretty easily.
I've always viewed camping as somewhat of an approach and a gain of board control. Maybe that's because I always have getting actual hits off in mind and I don't mindlessly spam very much. I suppose you can play by just spamming constantly, but I don't think the highest level play revolves around projectile spamming as people make it out to be.
I was referring to consistency in terms of approaching and within an individual match. Of course, if your not consistent in melee you won't win tournaments. In one match in melee, if you get a couple good approaches off it will change the match completely in your favor. In brawl, people can't really win matches because they got the good approach a few times, but they have to consistently do it for the whole match. I was not referring to technical skill at all, I tend to assume tech skill as a given at high level melee.
Stage control as far as the edges were concerned was definitely just as important in melee. However, once both characters were away from the edge, the stage didn't really matter as much, just the relative distance/position between the two characters. There are obviously exceptions like weird levels or with marth stage is much more important. However, in brawl, I think stage awareness is very emphasized. For characters like falco and ddd, the distance of the stage determines how much damage their chaingrabs do. Snake is all about board control with his projectiles.
I mean, you rarely saw non top tiers winning tourneys in melee. I do think that meta knight really detracts from brawls potential and I think he should be banned. Other than meta, the top tiers in brawl don't really **** each other any worse than they did in melee. Even though ddd beats snake, snake isn't fighting a completely uphill battle. Between gdub, snake, ddd, marth and falco, they all do fine against each other. There is also a large cast of characters that are high but have a few matches that are just really hard, which seems bigger than that area of the cast in melee.
Test went well, I think.
I think the main problem with our arguement, Karn, is that our definitions for "defensive" and "campy" and "skilled" differ. Without these agreed upon (and I believe that each have varying levels of subjectivity), I doubt that much will be solved in this debate, other than you giving me some very useful information to look over again as I need it (on both sides of course, you said some pretty smart things bro). I wish this was an arguement that could be solved definitively, but, like in the rest of the Melee/Brawl/smash debates, no one can really change another's mind, at least in its' entirety.
Still, it was fun at the least.
What was the test on, if I may ask?
Still, it was fun at the least.
What was the test on, if I may ask?
lord karn
Smash Master
Yeah, our definitions of things differ a lot. Unless we had a starting definition our argument could just keep going and going.
I had a biology test. It wasn't that hard. I also had a a midterm in creative writing, but it was meant to be ridiculously easy, so there was no necessary studying.
I had a biology test. It wasn't that hard. I also had a a midterm in creative writing, but it was meant to be ridiculously easy, so there was no necessary studying.
Krackshot Kroc
Smash Ace
Ok good stuff, I might bring Ian along too, but that depends on how everything plays out.
I'll tell you what, if you enter Brawl singles regardless if Meta Knight is banned or not then I'll do Melee singles.
Dark Hart
Rejected by Azua
Cool, me and Rob are leaving after Melee is over. I'm getting my dad to pick us up. And he'll be at my place the night before, so Melee Melee Melee!
Also, if you really enter Melee Singles, I'll do it.
Krackshot Kroc
Smash Ace
Oh, you guys are leaving after Melee is over? Well that's cool, but just stick around for Brawl singles first. I want you to get experience in for Brawl just as you want me to get experience in for Melee, so it all works out.
Well since I'm entering Melee now, I think I should start practicing.
Can I post here?
Edit: Yes, I can. WTF?
Edit: Yes, I can. WTF?
Dark Hart
Rejected by Azua
We, I can't stay for Brawl, I have plans that evening, night, and the next morning. And I know Rob won't play brawl if he goes. Me and Him are Melee kids!
Krackshot Kroc
Smash Ace
I like how you already know what plans you have way ahead of time, I usually don't find out what I'm doing that day until the day before, lol.
I understand, I'll still enter Melee singles I suppose.
Dark Hart
Rejected by Azua
awesome bro! Use your Marth and Sheik. I planning on doing well in Melee and Billfest and PLURs, you should too.
yea, me Josh and my friends Sara (she's a cutie) are sleeping over at Josh's, we did it before and it was funny, and according to Sara I was comfy to sleep on, so it should be cool.
yea, me Josh and my friends Sara (she's a cutie) are sleeping over at Josh's, we did it before and it was funny, and according to Sara I was comfy to sleep on, so it should be cool.
Fact: DH is indeed comfy to sleep on.
Krackshot Kroc
Smash Ace
Will do, I'll try my best.
Oh so you're hanging out with Josh and Sara? I know who Josh is but I don't know Sara. It should be cool man, just do what you did to Shady's Ganondorf with Marth on Sara and she should sleep well at night.
lol PP
lord karn
Smash Master
He's so small and compact. Kind of like jigglypuff.
Except he doesn't gay stuff....wait, doesn't he main MK in Barlw?...=p Not a good sign.
Malk
Smash Champion
It's a fact: DH gays stuff
lord karn
Smash Master
have you ever seen that look in his eyes?
pure desire
pure desire
Vilt
Smash Lord
Lawl malk.
Zero_Gamer
Smash Master
I was joking about Roy having top tier stuff. I meant that, in Japanese settings, it sounds like the audience is cheering for Meta Knight, who is top tier. -.-
Vilt
Smash Lord
Lawl. Roy is good **** Dark Hart. Just gotta know how to get those kills.
Dark Hart
Rejected by Azua
lol I <3 NC Smash
I'm too good.
I'm too good.
Achiricow
Smash Rookie
When/Where is this tournament going down?
p.s I just shook Barack Obama's hand *cheers*
p.s I just shook Barack Obama's hand *cheers*