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The new and improved NORTH CAROLINA locator thread

BEHR

Smash Hero
Joined
Oct 24, 2007
Messages
5,371
Location
NC
Notes From Smash Today-


-Mask hates my Falco
-Im not going to pay him.
-Vilt and I have amazing Falcon Dittos
-Mask is a skank.
-Mask beat me in Jigglypuff Ditto in Brawl.
-The Above is false and true.
-BEHR Powers.
 

Dr Peepee

Thanks for Everything <3
Moderator
BRoomer
Joined
Sep 29, 2007
Messages
27,766
Location
Raleigh, North Carolina
Yay, BEHR mains Falco! Going by the "Mask hatin Falco" part I'm assuming that you're gettin pretty good?

See BEHR? Time for a new Brawl main lol. At least Sheik...

I think your best (from Jubilee, mind you) is Fox. Maybe it's not now.
 

nicaboy

Smash Champion
Joined
Aug 8, 2007
Messages
2,981
Location
channeling death lotus
lol four main sheik ganon peach luigi
i played peach for about a year now and im droping her sheik just does better overall lol
i play fox falco marth in friendlies and i can play low teirs from time to time for fun ness on fox is too good double jump cancels ftw xD
@DARK HEART too good man you *****
 

Zero_Gamer

Smash Master
Joined
May 13, 2008
Messages
3,134
Location
Reidsville, NC (Not anywhere)
Melee isn't very unique is it? (Who cares, it's ****in' Melee!)

I've been main jumping all year, but I've finally stuck with Roy. I've also found something AMAZING about him that proves top tier stuff.
 

Dr Peepee

Thanks for Everything <3
Moderator
BRoomer
Joined
Sep 29, 2007
Messages
27,766
Location
Raleigh, North Carolina
Well Zero, there are less characters to pick from in this game lol.

Sup Arichicow, welcome to the boards! You play Melee, Brawl, or both?
 

Dark Hart

Rejected by Azua
Joined
Mar 25, 2008
Messages
11,251
Location
Death Row, North Carolina
I've been main jumping all year, but I've finally stuck with Roy. I've also found something AMAZING about him that proves top tier stuff.
1. You should've stuck with Fox.
2. Roy sucks
3. He'll never have top tier stuff.

My first post on smash boards =D
1) Achiri/Cow
2) Durham
3) achiricow
What's good, bro?
 

Dr Peepee

Thanks for Everything <3
Moderator
BRoomer
Joined
Sep 29, 2007
Messages
27,766
Location
Raleigh, North Carolina
Hey bros, I just posted a rather large wall of text concerning Melee vs Brawl. I have the quote here if anyone cares to correct me on anything I said so that I'll have my facts straight in the future.

Alright then Equi/Afro, I seriously wanted to stay out of this thread, but I've gotten progressively dissatisfied by your posts (respect as Brawl players though, real talk), so I'd like to bring up a few points (some will probably be restated, oh wellz).

Unless you're a character at a higher percent, the main objective of any of the smash games is to force the opponent off of the stage and keep them off. This is facilitated by building percent quickly to get a kill or by edgeguarding.

The problem here is that both percent buildingand edgeguarding (and offense in general) are greatly discouraged for most of the cast of Brawl. Percent building is hindered by the obvious floatiness and new airdodge system, and edgeguarding is also worsened by auto-sweetspotted edges and, again, the overall floatiness of the characters. (NOTE: both still exist, but in less effective forms)

Due to reduced projectile colldown time, and massively reduced shieldstun and cooldown rates for spotdodges and rolls, the game engine itself was designed for camping and not moving/avoiding approaches. This defeats the inherent goal of smash: to hit the opponent off of the stage, usually by scoring a series of hits. True, by approaching after all of this heavy camping and delivering a fresh kill shot a stock is taken off, but this is simply a reason why the game is not only boring to watch but is a central concept in the arguement over the competitive worth of the game. If the game engine is fighting against the main purpose of the game, there will certainly be serious competitive issues.

Through the use of options in Melee (of which I'm sure you're aware), there were in fact many thought processes made as well (referring to your "thought links per hit" idea I guess). You had to know not only your own options, but all of your opponent's options, plus their movement/attack pattern. This goes along with what Scar (or it could've been Cactuar, I forget) posted in that thread wayyyy back then concerning the general push-pull motion of fighting games.

In 64, there was too much push, where a stock could very well come from a single hit. Compounding this issue was the tremendous shieldstun, which discouraged any defensive options and tilted the game farther towards a more, as someone in this thread delicately phrased it, "an aggro fest."

In Brawl, there is too much of the "pull" force here due to the overall defensiveness of the game. You net no gain for all of the extra effort applied to score a hit, which discourages aggression at all (as previously stated). You end up with characters dancing around in some form attemtping to score one or two hits, then returning to the dancing around phase again.

In Melee, there is certainly a healthy amount of "mindgames" to hit the opponent due to the multitudes of options available to the player, and there can be as great of a reward to the player for scoring a hit as their tech skill allows. Most of these combos, however, would not result in a KO. This type of situation favors offense, but not to the point where any person is without defensive options at any time.


There's also a character balance issue, but I'm not well-informed enough (nor do I pretend to be) to create a well-founded arguement there.


Oh yeah, the point of this post was not to prove you guys (Afro/Equi) wrong, but to give you a broader perspective on the Melee side of the discussion. Brawl has some positive points too, but I am also in favor of Melee in terms of competitiveness and enjoyability, so I guess I just want you guys to see where we (as Melee enthusiasts) are coming from.
 

Vilt

Smash Lord
Joined
Jun 9, 2007
Messages
1,481
Location
Greensboro, NC
Good **** PP. Good ****.

But back on Behr. I literally Kneed him across FD twice and the second time he just was like "**** it." and falcon kicked to his death. No **** tho, they were epic today and always are.

Mask: I want you. I want you so bad. No homo....(maybe a slight bit.)
 

Dr Peepee

Thanks for Everything <3
Moderator
BRoomer
Joined
Sep 29, 2007
Messages
27,766
Location
Raleigh, North Carolina
Cool.

I'm gonna try to pick the Kids up from Hickory to since I can't ride with you guys this time. Would they be able to stay with you too if they go?
 

Dr Peepee

Thanks for Everything <3
Moderator
BRoomer
Joined
Sep 29, 2007
Messages
27,766
Location
Raleigh, North Carolina
Two. They are usually well-behaved if they stay separated...lol I'm kiddin they're cool bros.

Anyway, I'm not sure how much of a detour it is from my original route to Chapel Hill and with Hickory added on, so it may not happen at all. I'll let you know as soon as I get confirmation one way or another.
 

Vilt

Smash Lord
Joined
Jun 9, 2007
Messages
1,481
Location
Greensboro, NC
It should be all good. With my mom having cancer and everything just gonna need to keep it down if she isn't in a hospital.
 

lord karn

Smash Master
Joined
Jun 18, 2004
Messages
4,324
Location
Raleigh, NC
I don't really think the push/pull argument really holds any weight insofar as it proves that a certain game is more competitive than the others.

I would argue that in all three games, except maybe 64, the pull or baiting part of the match is the most important. You always want to be in a situation where you are safe but you are threatening your opponent to act. A fox shield pressuring, a marth right outside of someone's range, and a falco shooting lasers are all trying to force the opponent into a punishable situation. Even though the fox and the marth are relatively close, I would still consider them pulling. The push, I think, is just the final moment when the puller decides to go for the hit, which is always a result of a pull. It just so happens that pulling in brawl is often done with projectiles from far away, but it is still generally the same. You just need to successfully pull more times than in the other games, because of lack of combos. The games still test the same basic skills, there is just more consistency necessary per match in brawl than in the other two. The main difference between the games is tech skill and knowledge of movesets and physics.

As for brawl being against the point of smash, I disagree. The goal is just to kill your opponent, not necessarily knock him off the level. That just happens to be one method of doing so. Like I said earlier, each stock in brawl is just more attempts at pulling and pushing. I don't see how promoting defensiveness makes brawl go against the point of the game. The point remains the same, it's just harder to accomplish.

Maybe my argument is just way to much semantics and the difference between push/pull is more or less arbitrary. When I play seriously, I always play defensively in melee as well in brawl. It's always seemed like the best way to play if I was actually doing what I was supposed to do. I remember Azen said somewhere that the only thing he does different in brawl is he camps with Lucario's fsmash instead of marth's. I know it was a joke, but I think it proves a point. Most high level play in melee, to me, has seemed to reward defensive play.

Yeah, melee is way more aesthetically pleasing, I won't disagree with that.

All of this being said, I enjoy playing all three games pretty much the same.
 

Vilt

Smash Lord
Joined
Jun 9, 2007
Messages
1,481
Location
Greensboro, NC
Ditto Karn. :3 I love all three. It's hard living in the Boro where Melee is the game. XD No offense to my home peeps.

Edit: I wish we had more 64 tho.
 

BEHR

Smash Hero
Joined
Oct 24, 2007
Messages
5,371
Location
NC
I play Brawl Better when I dont play it all unless im at Bills

Mike has the only 64. x3
 

Vilt

Smash Lord
Joined
Jun 9, 2007
Messages
1,481
Location
Greensboro, NC
I know right. The thing that bothers me the most is just the plain hacking of Brawl. I wanna try a hacked game but at the same time, I'm sick of people changing it. I think the hacking is going to definitely separate the smash community. ; ;
 

Dr Peepee

Thanks for Everything <3
Moderator
BRoomer
Joined
Sep 29, 2007
Messages
27,766
Location
Raleigh, North Carolina
You forget that the "push" part of the spectrum is even with the "pull" value in Melee. Both are very necessary parts of the game, and this balance between the two parts gives Melee its greater competitive merit (because I am going to assume that the push/pull concept does hold water for competitive value for now).

For Brawl, there is too much pull. I mean, combos don't make a game, but it seems that the effort that is taken into scoring the hit is almost fruitless since the one that is hit can just Super DI and Airdodge away, maybe even retaliate before the lag of the move that hit them ends.

The increased amount of push also plays a key role in how viable the lower-tiered characters are. In Melee, Picku can CG Fox, Mewtwo can combo Fox like crazy, and even Kirby had some fair punishers (I believe). It didn't make the characters viable, but it gave them popularity and a fighting chance since they could take advantage of the game's design and combo a usually dominating character.

In Brawl, low-tiers do not have any sort of pull to take advantage of. They play with the basic characteristics that they are dealt, and nothing that they do can make them even remotely playable when Snake cannot die due to how many hits it takes to kill him+his insane weight (same for DDD), DDD has a crazy CG on nearly every character (Falco too), and Meta Knight.
(This is the character balance that I'm not entirely sure about. Please correct as necessary).


Also, I'm not sure that it was defensive play that rewarded a person so much as predicting them and capitalizing on that correct prediction. If a Marth DDs back when a Fox Nairs toward him and then pivot grabs to do a 70% combo, that is correct prediction. I think defensive play would have to be camping (with Fox or Falco, I don't think any other character can really camp in Melee...I could be wrong though) in Melee.

In Brawl, a person can literally sit in their shield and punish quite a number of approaches due to the insane lack of shieldstun. That, to me, seems far more defensive than just spatially camping or ledgestalling (viable in Melee???).
 

lord karn

Smash Master
Joined
Jun 18, 2004
Messages
4,324
Location
Raleigh, NC
You forget that the "push" part of the spectrum is even with the "pull" value in Melee. Both are very necessary parts of the game, and this balance between the two parts gives Melee its greater competitive merit (because I am going to assume that the push/pull concept does hold water for competitive value for now).

For Brawl, there is too much pull. I mean, combos don't make a game, but it seems that the effort that is taken into scoring the hit is almost fruitless since the one that is hit can just Super DI and Airdodge away, maybe even retaliate before the lag of the move that hit them ends.

The increased amount of push also plays a key role in how viable the lower-tiered characters are. In Melee, Picku can CG Fox, Mewtwo can combo Fox like crazy, and even Kirby had some fair punishers (I believe). It didn't make the characters viable, but it gave them popularity and a fighting chance since they could take advantage of the game's design and combo a usually dominating character.

In Brawl, low-tiers do not have any sort of pull to take advantage of. They play with the basic characteristics that they are dealt, and nothing that they do can make them even remotely playable when Snake cannot die due to how many hits it takes to kill him+his insane weight (same for DDD), DDD has a crazy CG on nearly every character (Falco too), and Meta Knight.
(This is the character balance that I'm not entirely sure about. Please correct as necessary).


Also, I'm not sure that it was defensive play that rewarded a person so much as predicting them and capitalizing on that correct prediction. If a Marth DDs back when a Fox Nairs toward him and then pivot grabs to do a 70% combo, that is correct prediction. I think defensive play would have to be camping (with Fox or Falco, I don't think any other character can really camp in Melee...I could be wrong though) in Melee.

In Brawl, a person can literally sit in their shield and punish quite a number of approaches due to the insane lack of shieldstun. That, to me, seems far more defensive than just spatially camping or ledgestalling (viable in Melee???).
I think we have different definitions of what defensive play is. I consider play defensive when you are playing in a style where you wait for your opponent to make mistakes while putting yourself in a safe position. Generally, you want to put your opponent in bad situations so you can make them make mistakes. Keep in mind that mistakes include making bad decisions, and you must predict that.

I don't disagree with you that low-tier was much more rewarding in melee. I mained mewtwo.

Why does having a lot of pull in a game make it bad? You never really state why this is a bad thing.
 

null55

Smash Master
Joined
Apr 26, 2008
Messages
3,500
As far as fighting games are concerned, EVERYBODY thinks that Brawl sucks. But does it? What constitutes a great fighting game? Combos? Balance? At least one really weird/homosexual white guy for a character?

It's kind of subjective, but I think there's one general, simple criteria that can be used to judge any game: Fun. And Brawl definitely has the potential to be fun.

People argue that Brawl is bad because camping works and really gay strategies (gay as just as effective at it is retardedly simple) work as well, but gay things could also work in Melee if you didn't know how to handle them. The only things I truly can't stand in Brawl is how moves that should be punishable aren't at all. Pikachu's thunder and down smash (omg gayest thing ever), Diddy's dash attack, Meta Knight, et... That's the thing that irks me the most. I call Brawl a bad game not because it doesn't have combos or camping works against people who don't know how to deal with it, but because it just has too many things that exist to allow stupid children the opportunity to play better than they would at a game that required technical skill. It's not made for skill. It's made for gay.

But the bottom line is, against smart people, Brawl is fun. I'm taking a break from it right now, but I do love the game, just because I love Smash and Nintendo in general. So no hate from me.
 
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