The "Metaknight should/will be banned" thread.

[Ekaru]

I was going to post this earlier, but decided to copy it to my clipboard and refresh to see if Yuna made a rebuttal yet, and he did, but my earlier post I wrote up makes a few (poor) points, so I'll just summarize the points. If you want me to post paragraphs, I will. I already typed them up, after all.


---------------------

Having MK-less tourneys would not yield any worthwhile results, because here's what would happen:

1. MK mainers wouldn't use MK, they'd use... their second best. Woopy-doo. That is a worthwhile and unpredictable result! Let's see what ELSE would happen!

2. The same people would win the majority of the big tournaments. M2K would still win. Anther would OBVIOUSLY still win, because he mains Pika, not MK. Azen would still place well I think. Unless I'm intoxicated, of course. DSF? Yes. And some other guys that aren't good just because they are MK or some other character, but because they're just good at what they do - kicking ***.

That is, assuming the tourneys where in a place and time so they could attend it. If the prize was big enough and everything was just right for them to attend, there's a good chance they would, if only for the money.

3. The tourney would only have more variety for one main freaking reason: People would be using their second best (aside from their CPs) if they mained MK instead of their best, and second best often vary. Snake and D3 are common, but so are others. Not THAT much more variety though. Oh, and you might see a Marth or two pop up for the hell of it.

Wait, scratch Snake. Just a bunch of characters that they are good with. Same people will still win, ect.

-------------------

Yeah. They're poor points, but still points. It's all that would happen if you had a few MK-less tourneys. It wouldn't even be enough to develop a new metagame! You'd have to have at LEAST a year or two of decent support for this in order to get a clear result of who would dominate. Not. Worth. It. In. My. Opinion.

EDIT: Wow that was a lot of posts while I was posting. nvm

EDIT2: And Yuna's points still stand. =P

EDIT3: Because they are very, very good points that actually make sense, unlike mine. He actually knows what he's talking about. :O

 

[Yuna]

Stuff.

Yay, heavily biased threads!

Stuff.

Let me reiterate, what the hell will these Meta-less tourneys do to further the metagame? The only thing they'll do is show us how characters place without Meta around, and that's only if we have many of these tournaments with the very best of the best present.

BS

Ban MK, ban Snake, ban G&W, ban High Tier. Congratulations, Mid Tier is now dominating and it's all about counterpicking.

 

[MorphedChaos]

Well well well Yuna, Your ego sure is big today, isn't it? I may not be able to participate in a tourny (due to none being in my area/being half blind., which I should say is my bad for not telling everyone, but then, people take advantage of the handicapped person.) but I digress, you keep showing your Blasphemy, and doing good at that. As for being a leader, that specify you work in the Broomers area, where all the rules and such are decided, thus you=smash leader.

One thing I see TOTALY WRONG in this thread is that you defend MK being banned as people changing their mains due to no MK, and then you say "Oh, choose someone who isn't your main so you can fight a MK and win." Well this holds little ground as it can be said for every character, Stop using it as a jhon, it holds no grounds, and just makes you look silly, not to mention, its hypocritical. And for being better at the competitive smash? I said it before and I'll say it again, whoopdie freaking doo, it doesn't make a difference to me, just shows you can't, to put in your words (Or about, I may be wrong here.) "I'm a competitive player, therefor I am the best, you are not, so your the worst, I win, you lose, NaNaNa." (Ok, thats terrible but I make my point.)

How about we bury the hatchet and try to reach middle ground then? Or would that be asking too much?

 

[Duality]

You said "I have to work when MK doesn't". I made fun of you for that "Noes! I have to work!".

If you want to win "effortlessly", then pick MK or some of his even matchups, that's what I was saying. Also, 5-4 and 6-3 =/= Negligible chance.

*face palm* Either I'm high, or you just don't get it. But I don't have any drugs. But OK YUNA, YOU WIN! Now go boost your ego about it.

But if everyone did that (Since money is on the table, most people are gonna choose the easiest path to victory) might as well call this game something else. Super Meta Knight Brawl. Ultimate MK Fighter.

Ehh, not too hot with names.


Also.. the hell is Yuna doing here saying this **** in a "Metaknight should/will be banned" thread? Go argue how he won't be banned in another topic. Go make one. "Metaknight won't be banned at the moment because.."

 

[Yuna]

Well well well Yuna, Your ego sure is big today, isn't it? I may not be able to participate in a tourny (due to none being in my area/being half blind., which I should say is my bad for not telling everyone, but then, people take advantage of the handicapped person.) but I digress, you keep showing your Blasphemy, and doing good at that.

My what?

As for being a leader, that specify you work in the Broomers area, where all the rules and such are decided, thus you=smash leader.

BR =/= SBR

Being a leader =/= Tolerateing rampant stupidity. I'm explaining how the SBR thinks and works. You argue against me. I argue back, and?

Look up the word "Scrub". I have not called anyone names. You, however, have (hypocrisy!).

One thing I see TOTALY WRONG in this thread is that you defend MK being banned as people changing their mains due to no MK, and then you say "Oh, choose someone who isn't your main so you can fight a MK and win." Well this holds little ground as it can be said for every character, Stop using it as a jhon, it holds no grounds, and just makes you look silly, not to mention, its hypocritical.

This... stuff made no sense. Wait, what? Anyway, let me try to decode it:
Don't say "Use someone else if your main is bad against Meta. Because that can be said about everyone. It's hypocritical." ... Still makes no sense.

And for being better at the competitive smash? I said it before and I'll say it again, whoopdie freaking doo, it doesn't make a difference to me, just shows you can't, to put in your words (Or about, I may be wrong here.) "I'm a competitive player, therefor I am the best, you are not, so your the worst, I win, you lose, NaNaNa." (Ok, thats terrible but I make my point.)

I said that I know more about it. I'm sorry, are you actually incapable of understanding plain English?

How about we bury the hatchet and try to reach middle ground then? Or would that be asking too much?

When you start to actually read my posts. Half blind or not, every single reply you've given me insofar shows you've either missed, ignored or misread my posts. And you often make no sense (see above).

English is my third language. It's supposedly your first.

 

[GofG]

Yuna, why haven't you brought up sirlin yet?

Why did everyone ignore me when I brought up sirlin?


/cry

 

[Espy Rose]

Yay, heavily biased threads!

What isn't biased?

Let me reiterate, what the hell will these Meta-less tourneys do to further the metagame? The only thing they'll do is show us how characters place without Meta around, and that's only if we have many of these tournaments with the very best of the best present.

The bold is all I want to know. Am I hurting or insulting anyone by simply pondering? I know it won't necessarily "make a difference".

Ban MK, ban Snake, ban G&W, ban High Tier. Congratulations, Mid Tier is now dominating and it's all about counterpicking.

This game is already all about counterpicking.

It's probably starting to sink in though. So I'll give this one to you, Yuna. Meta-less tournaments will do "nothing" but advance characters meta-games against other characters besides Meta Knight, and doing so would actually slow down everyone's progress when concerning vs. MK.

I do, however, still wish to test it, just for the sake of knowing at least 99.9%

I hope I didn't give a bad impression or anything to you. Also, please don't call me, or what I try to say, a scrub (or a scrubby thing to say) like you did earlier. It's kinda insulting to the hours I put into practicing in Brawl. I'll probably just hang around here and read how the rest of this goes on.

So closing:

-Meta Knight will not be banned, even if he's the best character in the game by a decent margin. He's beatable, and it's going to have to take an effort to defeat MKs in the future.

-Meta Knight can be soft-banned, but even so, it won't make much difference, as most of the "Top Echelon of players" don't really win with MK anyways, save for M2K.

-Having "No-MK Tournaments" will do nothing to advance the meta-game of any character vs. Meta Knight, and will on the contrary, slow down characters progression vs. Meta Knights in the future. The only pro would be advancing the development of characters vs. other characters that aren't MK. These tournaments will also serve to show a simple "what-if" if Meta Knight was truly banned, which, as I said, won't happen.

-Meta Knight really is gay if he alone is effecting the community like this.

If anyone has any problems with what I've posted, please reply, as I wish to discuss this more.

I still want to test the No-MK Tournaments though, just for the sake of knowing.

I don't think I necessarily bashed you at all though Yuna, and I'm too lazy to read through these last few pages to see if I did so. If I did, then I apologize.

-----

Yuna, why haven't you brought up sirlin yet?

Why did everyone ignore me when I brought up sirlin?

Probably because you only have 500 posts.

But in all seriousness, if you must, that post did influence mine right here.

 

[MorphedChaos]

Oh, well then thats my bad, isn't it Yuna? But why did you push my olive branch away, and instead stay with the steel arrow? Do you really want me to go at war with you? It would just be a waste of energy on you, your not worth it. We are getting off topic, Stay in Lala land, I'm going back to this topic.

So, Who will organize some non meta tournies? I heard someone was, who else?

 

[GofG]

Also, please don't call me a scrub like you did earlier. It's kinda insulting to the hours I put into practicing in Brawl.

don't call me a scrub

hours I put into practicing in Brawl.

Lol.

10ironies.

As to my post count, I consider date joined a far better indicator of relative worth to the community. In the end, neither of them are sure-fire methods, but one can be assured that if someone joined after january, 2008, then they joined because of brawl and therefore have had almost no tournament experience. I've attended many tournaments, on the other hand. Also, though it doesn't mean much, it might be an indicator of my general involvement in competitive smash that I have a sticky in the lucas forums. >.<

 

[MorphedChaos]

Oh, I'd also like to say, How about those who hate MK, we just break the tourny rules to show how much we hate him? Or just boycott them altogether? Boycotting can lead to a many great things, you just have to have the initiative, so, whos with me?

 

[Duality]

Scrub, an otherwise inferior person in some what way. Most often refers to social standings.

K.. well I bet you WOULD use that word since your ego is higher than Cheech and Chong.

I didn't know what it means, so I looked it up. Idk how this guy can be a leader or role-model for anyone, I'm sorry but all this made him look like an egotistical jerk to me.

 

[GofG]

Oh, I'd also like to say, How about those who hate MK, we just break the tourny rules to show how much we hate him? Or just boycott them altogether? Boycotting can lead to a many great things, you just have to have the initiative, so, whos with me?

What do you intend to do? Go to a tournament and demand that your first match be played on rumble falls?

Oh wait, you intend to boycott tournaments? Thousands of scrubs are already not attending tournaments. You can go join them if you want.

 

[Yuna]

-Meta Knight can be soft-banned, but even so, it won't make much difference, as most of the "Top Echelon of players" don't really win with MK anyways, save for M2K.
.

Which immediately begs the question:
Then why the hell are people whining about him?!

 

[Espy Rose]

Lol.

10ironies.

How embarrasing...I caught that just as I had finished editing my post. embarrass:embarrass

As to my post count, I consider date joined a far better indicator of relative worth to the community. In the end, neither of them are sure-fire methods, but one can be assured that if someone joined after january, 2008, then they joined because of brawl and therefore have had almost no tournament experience. I've attended many tournaments, on the other hand. Also, though it doesn't mean much, it might be an indicator of my general involvement in competitive smash that I have a sticky in the lucas forums. >.<

It was mostly a joke, since the common stereotype is that most people base other forum-goers intelligence based on post count...

It's all good though.

Which immediately begs the question:
Then why the hell are people whining about him?!

Probably because they are simply frustrated at losing to him.

Hell, for a time period before I found this thread, I kinda was too, until I realized that I was playing Brawl.

I played Melee at a decent level, and if there's one thing I've learned...

If you lose, it's your fault for falling for the crap your opponent did to you, regardless of their character choice.

Dont get hit. It's so simple, yes?

 

[GofG]

Scrub, an otherwise inferior person in some what way. Most often refers to social standings.

K.. well I bet you WOULD use that word since your ego is higher than Cheech and Chong.

I didn't know what it means, so I looked it up. Idk how this guy can be a leader or role-model for anyone, I'm sorry but all this made him look like an egotistical jerk to me.

An ad hominem argument, also known as argumentum ad hominem (Latin: "argument to the man", "argument against the man") consists of replying to an argument or factual claim by attacking or appealing to a characteristic or belief of the person making the argument or claim, rather than by addressing the substance of the argument or producing evidence against the claim. The process of proving or disproving the claim is thereby subverted, and the argumentum ad hominem works to change the subject.

 

[Duality]

Woops sorry, Lagged.

GogfG, I had nothing to argue since he hadn't replied. And I was just stating. Do I have to argue in this topic?

Maybe I'm misunderstanding your really confusing post. POint is, I was merely stating. I had no intention to argue that topic.

 

[GofG]

Repeating an ad hominem argument doesn't make it any more legitimate.

tl;dr Nice replying twice :D

 

[MorphedChaos]

So I joined recently, I just heard of SWF since , oh what was it, a week ago? Mostly I've just been brawling Wifi, or for melee/origonal, vs 3 level 9's on a team, which got boring very fast. so my date of joining isn't a matter here.

As for boycotting, thanks for insulting an idea, thats REAL cool man, real cool, just like Yuna.

 

[Yuna]

Scrub, an otherwise inferior person in some what way. Most often refers to social standings.

Yes, Urban Dictionary is obviously a reliable source of information.

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20080729221347AA3QEDq
http://www.sirlin.net/Features/feature_PlayToWinPart1.htm

 

[GofG]

What exactly is it that you intend to do? All I did was point out that your idea was ludicrous. Perhaps I got your idea wrong? Perhaps you intend to boycott something else?

 

[Duality]

Everytime I refresh I reply a new one..

 

[GofG]

Duality, you fail at forums.

 

[Brinzy]

Anyone who keeps spouting that Yuna is egotistical and/or isn't addressing points (or hasn't already address points) need to stop clicking the "Add Reply" button and start flipping through the pages. I actually went back and read every single time he said to read something he said, and he's been right the whole time. He's right about why MK will not be banned now (having no bad match-ups does not warrant a ban; it just means said character is **** good) and he's right about what the impact of a non-Meta tourney would have on the metagame (virtually nothing, because Metaknight is part of the metagame and removing that wouldn't completely advance characters). Now could we all quit accusing him of being this and that and actually start looking at what he's presenting? Because, you know... he's right.


inb4I get labeled.

 

[Duality]

Yup. I fail at forums. Sorry I can't help what's going on, it's acting stupid.

 

[MorphedChaos]

Maybe, but then what about the argument about "if MK is removed, we would see more character difference." and "If someone plays MK, you play MK" I'm sure he never answered those in his "Wisdom." So please, enlighten me.

 

[Espy Rose]

Anyone who keeps spouting that Yuna is egotistical and/or isn't addressing points (or hasn't already address points) need to stop clicking the "Add Reply" button and start flipping through the pages. I actually went back and read every single time he said to read something he said, and he's been right the whole time. He's right about why MK will not be banned now (having no bad match-ups does not warrant a ban; it just means said character is **** good) and he's right about what the impact of a non-Meta tourney would have on the metagame (virtually nothing, because Metaknight is part of the metagame and removing that wouldn't completely advance characters). Now could we all quit accusing him of being this and that and actually start looking at what he's presenting? Because, you know... he's right.


inb4I get labeled.

If I was necessarily trying to get MK banned, then I was approaching my idea the wrong way, since I don't think that was my original goal (or any part of my goal for that matter).

That, and now I see why non-MK tournaments wouldn't have any benefits concerning MK. I just needed a bit of time to consider what Yuna said.

And as I've said before, now I just want to know about the whole "no MK tournament" just for the sake of knowing.

Niko said he's going to make one several pages back, so I'll await the results of that...

 

[Yuna]

Maybe, but then what about the argument about "if MK is removed, we would see more character difference." and "If someone plays MK, you play MK" I'm sure he never answered those in his "Wisdom." So please, enlighten me.

Funny. I did.

Several times. Allow me to dig up quotes. Hold on.

 

[MorphedChaos]

Ah, Thanks Puffball 64, When will he be holding it? I'll join if I can over wifi.

 

[Duality]

Anyone who keeps spouting that Yuna is egotistical and/or isn't addressing points (or hasn't already address points) need to stop clicking the "Add Reply" button and start flipping through the pages. I actually went back and read every single time he said to read something he said, and he's been right the whole time. He's right about why MK will not be banned now (having no bad match-ups does not warrant a ban; it just means said character is **** good) and he's right about what the impact of a non-Meta tourney would have on the metagame (virtually nothing, because Metaknight is part of the metagame and removing that wouldn't completely advance characters). Now could we all quit accusing him of being this and that and actually start looking at what he's presenting? Because, you know... he's right.


inb4I get labeled.

Well you obviously haven't read the last 5 or so pages. He IS egotistical. It's all right there.

@Yuna.

I find urbandictionary to be very reliable. Since you don't, I'll just post the definition from dictionary.com

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/scrub insignificant person? Yeah.. Way to be an egotistical ***.

 

[KoJ]

Scrub=Inexperienced player. Amirite?

Now the word scrub is relative. Say someone who was very good (I'm not going to use Yuna, since I don't have anything other than his word) called someone else a scrub. That "scrub" however, places reasonably well and is quite competitive, he just isn't nearly as good at the game as the other player. The pro has the right to call the other person inexperienced, but the other person will feel put off. Why? Because the good, but not great person thinks of scrubs as people who are much more inexperienced than he is.

The best solution? Don't call people scrubs. A genius can call other people idiots, as they are idiots in relation to him, but does that make it any less annoying?

Now, how bout people stop yelling at Yuna and actually address what he's saying, and Yuna stops calling people idiots (Other thread, but it applies here), scrubs, whatever. Happy?

Now, is Meta going to be banned? Of course not. As Yuna said, banning would be a last resort. Would a Meta Knight tournament be useful? No, as someone else said, because it would only mean that the MK mainers would use their secondarys. Best idea? Just either A.) Pick a secondary, or B.) Get good enough to beat Meta Knight. Tis hard, but tis fair.

 

[Yuna]

Maybe, but then what about the argument about "if MK is removed, we would see more character difference." and "If someone plays MK, you play MK" I'm sure he never answered those in his "Wisdom." So please, enlighten me.

"We ban things as a last resort, if they're unbeatable. Not to maximize diversity, "fun" or to appease whiners."

"No, being the best with 0 bad matchups is not enough."

Meta-Knight also have even matchups so if you want a 50-50 chance, you don't even have to go Meta, you still have other options. And a characters to completely dominate the scene to such a degree it takes a lot to even stand a chance at beating them for us to ban him.

I've also said all of this at least three times over.

 

[GofG]

KoJ, we are using Sirlin's definition of the word scrub. It has nothing to do with skill or ability.

Read this: http://www.sirlin.net/ptw/intermediates-guide/introducing-the-scrub/

 

[Yuna]

Scrub=Inexperienced player. Amirite?

No. Read the links I posted. Also, quote me where I call specific people idiots.

I only say "Only idiots would..." about things that only idiots would fall for/do/say.

Well you obviously haven't read the last 5 or so pages. He IS egotistical. It's all right there.

Being egotistical is no per se wrong. At least I'm right.

@Yuna.

I find urbandictionary to be very reliable. Since you don't, I'll just post the definition from dictionary.com

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/scrub insignificant person? Yeah.. Way to be an egotistical ***.

How about reading the links I posted? Urban Dictionary is full of BS.

"Scrub" has a distinct meaning within the Competitive fighting game community. If you'd bothered to read the links I posted, you would've seen that.

 

[Revven]

So I joined recently, I just heard of SWF since , oh what was it, a week ago? Mostly I've just been brawling Wifi, or for melee/origonal, vs 3 level 9's on a team, which got boring very fast. so my date of joining isn't a matter here.

Actually, it does matter.

If you only found out about SWF recently then you probably haven't participated in any Smash tournament. Going by what you said in this post too, the fact that you played three CPUs on a team against you in Smash 64 and Melee and you were bored of it and joined recently because of Brawl's WiFi says a lot about you. It says that you haven't placed in any tournaments much less gone to one. Do you know how much credibility you lose that shoots down all the points you've made? It's why Yuna is calling you a scrub, because you have no tournament experience much less any competitive knowledge like he has.

The point is, a join date can say quite a bit about somebody, even if they say they place in tournaments people will either say "probably local tourneys" or not believe you because the tournaments you went to aren't popular or list results on this site. Having a tournament background helps when it comes to arguing this type of stuff. It isn't necessarily what you need, it just helps, having vast competitive knowledge/experience though is required. And, going off of what you've said in the post above, you have none. And no, Brawl WiFi doesn't count as competitive experience.

 

[KoJ]

KoJ, we are using Sirlin's definition of the word scrub. It has nothing to do with skill or ability.

Read this: http://www.sirlin.net/ptw/intermediates-guide/introducing-the-scrub/

Oh, I was thinking it was the more common connotation. Thanks.

That does mean, however, that lots of people are using it in the wrong context.

 

[MorphedChaos]

But you STILL don't answer my questions/and or reasons, which you have been missing all night. you can't take the simple grasp of a "What if" and apply it? How can you not do something so simple? As for the 50/50, What if thats not your main? Your expected to get good at them when you possibly don't want to? that argument goes both ways like I said and should just be taken out entirly, otherwise this can go on forever. And as for the no MK tournies, you should agree, not bash them, but I suppose your ego gets in the way a lot, doesn't it?

Now, answer my what if, and we might get past this wall, or bury the hatchet and lets get along, either or, make your choice.

 

[Duality]

You told me to look up the word scrub, so I did. And I found that, aint my fault.

 

[Metroid_01]

This is ridiculous. Banning metaknight is pointless. As has been said numerous times before: being the best character in the game does not constitute a ban.

This whole **** section of smashboards is too full of novice fighting game players. Complaining that metaknight is pretty tough will not get you your way. Character johns like this only make you look worse. Until people see serious discussion from respected posters on this subject, there will simply be no sway.

Go ahead, run your experiments, but the result will change nothing. For now, just accept the character roster as it is, maybe some new techniques will appear that change how this game is played completely. Its only been a few months after all.

 

[Yuna]

But you STILL don't answer my questions/and or reasons, which you have been missing all night. you can't take the simple grasp of a "What if" and apply it? How can you not do something so simple? As for the 50/50, What if thats not your main? Your expected to get good at them when you possibly don't want to? that argument goes both ways like I said and should just be taken out entirly, otherwise this can go on forever. And as for the no MK tournies, you should agree, not bash them, but I suppose your ego gets in the way a lot, doesn't it?

Now, answer my what if, and we might get past this wall, or bury the hatchet and lets get along, either or, make your choice.

I've answered every single one of your questions. Your inability to grasp plain Englishdoesn't change that.

50/50 means an equal matchup. So what if it's not your main?! Unless you're playing as a character without any bad matchups (and, apparently, such a character should be banned), there will be matchups where you'll have an uphill battle, where you'll have to work harder.

Either have a secondary, switch mains or quit the game. Don't whine about it. If you really want to win, then switch to a good character! Oh noes, a character has a good matchup against your main! You want to win, but you don't want to have to switch mains or take up a secondary. Solution? Ban! Wheeeee!

I'm bashing Meta-less tournies by saying "They won't amount to much"? Yes, how horrible of me.

 

[pirkid]

Meta Knight gets banned, it's gonna be like a meteor shower on nubs who like him 'cause he flies.