Q&A The Marth Question and Answer Thread

[Swampertrulz]

Probably just because of tradition at this point, plus the fact that it'd cost money to hire someone to record English voice clips, when they already have Japanese clips that have done the job since Melee.
I honestly can't see Marth speaking anything other than Japanese anyway, it just wouldn't sound right to me (see: Code Name: STEAM). He's too fabulous for English anyway.

True I guess it is some sort of tradition, a three game tradition that is.

 

[Moydow]

When did he ever have an english VA?

He was voiced by Spike Spencer in the Mystery of the Emblem anime (which lasted two episodes), and by Yuri Lowenthal in Code Name: STEAM.

 

[Swampertrulz]

When did he ever have an english VA? Marth speaking Japanese is just tradition now. It'd be wierd if he didn't.

Not in Smash in other stuff Like Codename: STEAM and an OVA.

 

[Freelance Spy]

When did he ever have an english VA? Marth speaking Japanese is just tradition now. It'd be wierd if he didn't.

I'd like an option. I think Marth could have a very good voice actor.

 

[Vipermoon]

Eww never!!

Marth will quit his Smashbros job the second they try to teach him Engrish!

 

[A_Kae]

I just can't see ever liking an English VA for Marth. He's Japanese and I want it to stay that way.

 

[Freelance Spy]

I for one cannot give up my dream of becoming Marth's voice actor...

Sorry.

 

[A_Kae]

I for one cannot give up my dream of becoming Marth's voice actor...

Sorry.

I recommend you become Japanese. This is the only way.

Unless, of course, you're already Japanese. In which case all you need is to be a good VA.

 

[cerealkiller]

How do you edgeguard against Pikachu?

As of now this is the only character I just can never do anything against. Now I just wait for him and don't guard at all.

Typically Pikas will Skullbash to gain some horizontal recovery and then Quick-Attack to the ledge. I've managed to catch Pikas overcharging Skullbash and just counter it in the air but a good Pika won't let that happen. So what can I do?

I've tried dropping down and lay some aerials but quick attack is too fast and with such a big range Pikas won't get close to the stage before using it so you can't reach them. I've tried to wait for him to QA and backair him towards the stage but it never works.

Any ideas?

 

[A_Kae]

How do you edgeguard against Pikachu?

As of now this is the only character I just can never do anything against. Now I just wait for him and don't guard at all.

Typically Pikas will Skullbash to gain some horizontal recovery and then Quick-Attack to the ledge. I've managed to catch Pikas overcharging Skullbash and just counter it in the air but a good Pika won't let that happen. So what can I do?

I've tried dropping down and lay some aerials but quick attack is too fast and with such a big range Pikas won't get close to the stage before using it so you can't reach them. I've tried to wait for him to QA and backair him towards the stage but it never works.

Any ideas?

Edgeguarding vs a good pikachu isn't really something that you can do in my experience.

 

[cerealkiller]

Edgeguarding vs a good pikachu isn't really something that you can do in my experience.

Humm, I'm both glad and sad to hear that.

 

[A_Kae]

Humm, I'm both glad and sad to hear that.

It's just a sad truth. Pikachu's recovery is just too good to edgeguard if they know what they're doing.

Bad pikachus on the other hand...

 

[cerealkiller]

I'll just helplessly continue to throw FSmashes hoping to get the Snap Back thing.

 

[Shaya]

Know how deep you can go and just follow Pika there. Pika's terrible aerial mobility is terrible.
Like, you hit them off stage, you don't wait, you go ham for them. You'd be surprised what angles you can cover.

Nair is basically the only thing that you can use for trying to cover quick attack "through you".
Just remember that quick attack is 17 frames start up, it's quite within reaction means.

Marth goes off stage against every character bar Sheik, basically. Been that way in Brawl where we would go for MK too.
Fair is not worse for this interaction. Only our aerial mobility is. But our aerial hitboxes are bigger.

 

[Vipermoon]

Know how deep you can go and just follow Pika there. Pika's terrible aerial mobility is terrible.
Like, you hit them off stage, you don't wait, you go ham for them. You'd be surprised what angles you can cover.

Nair is basically the only thing that you can use for trying to cover quick attack "through you".
Just remember that quick attack is 17 frames start up, it's quite within reaction means.

Marth goes off stage against every character bar Sheik, basically. Been that way in Brawl where we would go for MK too.
Fair is not worse for this interaction. Only our aerial mobility is. But our aerial hitboxes are bigger.

Fair is worse for this because it doesn't hit above Marth on frame 5. I can't even count how many times I could've gimped someone with the non-existant frame 5 hitbox.

Still think Marth's air speed isn't actually lower. I check rankings just to make sure and he is in front of and behind generally the same characters. I issue is that some characters got air speed buffs and some new characters have good air speed so Marth finds himself slighly further back in the air speed line.

 

[A_Kae]

Fair is worse for this because it doesn't hit above Marth on frame 5. I can't even count how many times I could've gimped someone with the non-existant frame 5 hitbox.

Still think Marth's air speed isn't actually lower. I check rankings just to make sure and he is in front of and behind generally the same characters. I issue is that some characters got air speed buffs and some new characters have good air speed so Marth finds himself slighly further back in the air speed line.

Marth's airspeed in brawl was 1.034. It's 1.02 in smash 4.

Also, I really want fair to hit on frame 5 as well.

 

[Vipermoon]

Marth's airspeed in brawl was 1.034. It's 1.02 in smash 4.
Also, really want fair to hit on frame 5.

I know about the 1.02 but haven't been able to find a value for Brawl's. Where did you find that? Is there a number for his Brawl acceleration as well?

 

[A_Kae]

I know about the 1.02 but haven't been able to find a value for Brawl's. Where did you find that? Is there a number for his Brawl acceleration as well?

http://www.ssbwiki.com/Air_speed

Can't say for sure that's it's accurate, but it's the only number I can find. Don't know about acceleration.

Also, it might just be me, but Marth just feels like he has higher airspeed in brawl.

 

[Zorcey]

Could someone explain how to successfully to do jab > Fsmash please? I can only get jab > jab or jab > DB to work against human players. Is it not a true combo? Or am I missing something basic?

 

[Foodies]

Could someone explain how to successfully to do jab > Fsmash please? I can only get jab > jab or jab > DB to work against human players. Is it not a true combo? Or am I missing something basic?

It's not a true combo. It only works if your opponent picks the wrong option/doesn't react fast enough. Most characters can jump out of it, fastfallers can fall and shield, and some characters can beat it with an attack. If fastfallers jump the fsmash can hit them still though. People can also avoid it by mashing airdodge but that's a pretty unsafe option in general.

 

[Shaya]

Did I read correctly that jab into fsmash shows as a combo at around 200% or not?

If this is true (and I've been playing as if this is the truth), I look at around 120%ish if I've got rage to go for it.

Do jab 1 into jab1 again, if you catch their jump with it they're actually ****ed/near guaranteed fsmash.

 

[Vipermoon]

Did I read correctly that jab into fsmash shows as a combo at around 200% or not?

If this is true (and I've been playing as if this is the truth), I look at around 120%ish if I've got rage to go for it.

Do jab 1 into jab1 again, if you catch their jump with it they're actually ****ed/near guaranteed fsmash.

Yes with no rage it's about 200% (edit: nvm) on a Marth (tipper jab). But this is infinitely lower with rage. I was playing a friendly tonight and had 130%, my tipper jab 1 put someone in the lower 100%s completely out of range of my Fsmash. I was extremely surprised.

At percents where jab 1 doesn't put them into tumble but tipper Fsmash kills it's really easy to get the Fsmash because they are always at the perfect positioning and you can't DI a non-tumble hit much (at all?).

I've also been learning that at Utilt kill percents tipper jab sometimes is too far for the Utilt to reach so sour jab to tipper Utilt is great. Sour jab to tipper Fsmash in the 100s can connect well too

UPDATE: just got tipper jab 1 to Fsmash combo on Marth at 175! I guess I wasn't being frame perfect enough before

Edit: forgot to mention I think Ftilt is what we should be doing after a tipper jab when they're in the 100s. Fsmash for early kill non combo jank. Why count on Fsmash at Ftilt kill percents when Ftilt combos easier? I've been getting Ftilt to combo on Marth as early as 122% (the exact % required for a tipped jab to put him into tumble). It actually combos just as well here as it does in the upper 100s since the Ftilt would hit at an earlier frame (Ftilt goes from down to up).

And Shaya, 122 is actually a perfect % for the Jab > Jab > Fsmash set-up

 

[Admiral_Dante]

Sweet, gotta do some more jab practice!

btw, anyone know what's going on with the matchup thread?

 

[A_Kae]

Sweet, gotta do some more jab practice!

btw, anyone know what's going on with the matchup thread?

Seems to be a bit dead, unfortunately.

And Shaya, 122 is actually a perfect % for the Jab > Jab > Fsmash set-up

I've been getting Jab 1 > Jab 1 > F-Smash on FG on for few days now at about that range. Good to know that it's actually a thing and not just people not escaping.

agree that jab 1 -> F-tilt is probably the better setup to go with.

 

[Vipermoon]

Seems to be a bit dead, unfortunately.



I've been getting Jab 1 > Jab 1 > F-Smash on FG on for few days now at about that range. Good to know that it's actually a thing and not just people not escaping.

agree that jab 1 -> F-tilt is probably the better setup to go with.

I never said it was a combo though. Jab to jab combos in the mid 100s but when it starts to combo, the second jab puts them out of Fsmash's range (against Marth). This may be different with different weight and fall speeds

 

[A_Kae]

Something to add on to Jab 1 > F-smash is that even though it's only a true combo in training mode against Marth at 175, (my calculations say that it should work starting as 172) Marth (and most characters) have no way of escaping this at earlier percents. Airdodge starts on F3, so you should be guarenteed f-smash as early as 160. Add in rage, and you've got a viable kill setup.

Edit: Aerial Dolphin Slash has invincibility on F1, so Marth can get out once hitstun ends. So for Marth or anyone that has an F1 invincible move can escape if they're not in hitstun.

Edit 2: Jab at 175 vs Marth gives 36 frames of hitstun which is just enough to follow with an F-Smash. Assuming that f-smash is hitting on F13.

That's all assuming that I've got the right numbers here.

Edit 3: Figured I might as well post the numbers.

Jab 1 does 5%, with 30 base knockback and 55 knockback growth. 28 total frames, with the next action starting on frame 29. F-smash hits on frames 10-13, and because of the arc will connect on frame 13.

At 172 Jab 1 should give 36 frames of hitstun and 90.1121 units of knockback.

((((((172+5)/10+(((172+5)*5)/20))*(200/(90+100))*1.4)+18)*(55/100))+30)=90.1121
90.1121*.4=36 (actually 36.04484)

So on frame 5 Jab 1 connects, and enemy Marth takes 36 frames of hitstun and attacking Marth can act 23 frames later, which leaves exactly 13 frames for f-smash.

If any of this is wrong, please tell me.

 

[Vipermoon]

Something to add on to Jab 1 > F-smash is that even though it's only a true combo in training mode against Marth at 175, (my calculations say that it should work starting as 172) Marth (and most characters) have no way of escaping this at earlier percents. Airdodge starts on F3, so you should be guarenteed f-smash as early as 160. Add in rage, and you've got a viable kill setup.

Edit: Aerial Dolphin Slash has invincibility on F1, so Marth can get out once hitstun ends. So for Marth or anyone that has an F1 invincible move can escape if they're not in hitstun.

Edit 2: Jab at 175 vs Marth gives 36 frames of hitstun which is just enough to follow with an F-Smash. Assuming that f-smash is hitting on F13.

That's all assuming that I've got the right numbers here.

Edit 3: Figured I might as well post the numbers.

Jab 1 does 5%, with 30 base knockback and 55 knockback growth. 28 total frames, with the next action starting on frame 29. F-smash hits on frames 10-13, and because of the arc will connect on frame 13.

At 172 Jab 1 should give 36 frames of hitstun and 90.1121 units of knockback.

((((((172+5)/10+(((172+5)*5)/20))*(200/(90+100))*1.4)+18)*(55/100))+30)=90.1121
90.1121*.4=36 (actually 36.04484)

So on frame 5 Jab 1 connects, and enemy Marth takes 36 frames of hitstun and attacking Marth can act 23 frames later, which leaves exactly 13 frames for f-smash.

If any of this is wrong, please tell me.

It looks good to me except 1 (or 2) things. Frame 13 is when Fsmash hits the floor. Frame 10 is directly above Marth. The Fsmash after Jab 1 hits on frame 11. That only makes this combo work better. It's whether or not we're frame perfect is the thing.

Also jab 1 will sometimes be hitting a grounded opponent on frame 6. Even better.

 

[A_Kae]

It looks good to me except 1 (or 2) things. Frame 13 is when Fsmash hits the floor. Frame 10 is directly above Marth. The Fsmash after Jab 1 hits on frame 11. That only makes this combo work better. It's whether or not we're frame perfect is the thing.

Also jab 1 will sometimes be hitting a grounded opponent on frame 6. Even better.

Yeah, I wasn't quite sure when F-smash would hitting, so I just decided to go with the lateest frame it hits. I figured probably 11 or 12. Same for jab, just the earliest.

Also, I made an error there. I mixed up the base knockback and knockback growth for jab. BKB is 55, KBG is 30. If you're hitting F-smash on F11 (thanks for that), then it should be working starting at 170ish. 34 frames of hitstun. Assuming that you get f-smash off as soon as you can.

Edit: Precision!

Assuming that you can be frame perfect, (lol good luck doing that all the time) and that the first frame that you can act after jab is 29 (is that right?).

You need 34 of hitstun with jab hitting on frame 5, f-smash hitting on frame 11, and you actually being able to do that.

Jab 1 -> F-Smash should start working on Marth at 154%. With rage, even lower, (we still don't know how exactly rage works, right?).

 

[Vipermoon]

Yeah, I wasn't quite sure when F-smash would hitting, so I just decided to go with the lateest frame it hits. I figured probably 11 or 12. Same for jab, just the earliest.

Also, I made an error there. I mixed up the base knockback and knockback growth for jab. BKB is 55, KBG is 30. If you're hitting F-smash on F11 (thanks for that), then it should be working starting at 170ish. 34 frames of hitstun. Assuming that you get f-smash off as soon as you can.

Thanks for the calculations

 

[A_Kae]

Thanks for the calculations

I added some stuff to the post that you might not have seen.

Edit: If jab is hitting on frame 6 then it should start working at 135-140. 33 frames of hitstun needed.

Edit 2: It starts working between 135 and 140, that is. 135 doesn't give enough hitstun, 140 does, so I suspect that it's between the two values.

Edit 3: And something to keep in mind about all of this is that I'm just looking at when Jab gives enough hitstun for a training mode combo in to f-smash. Jab might not send the opponent far enough to hit with tipped f-smash at 140, it's just that the hitstun frames work out. You still will be able to hit with an untipped f-smash if tipped doesn't work out though.

Edit 4: Jab 1 combos into f-smash starting at 138%. That's with Jab 1 hitting on F6, and F-smash hitting on F11.

((((((138+5)/10+(((138+5)*5)/20))*(200/(90+100))*1.4)+18)*(30/100))+55)=82.5274 and 82.5274*.4=33(.01)

 

[Vipermoon]

Wow, barely after jab 1 puts them into tumble.

 

[MASTER719]

Just noticed that you can always grab release Lucas into Jab 1. I like to follow up with dash canceled FSmash or JC-Usmash.

 

[A_Kae]

Just noticed that you can always grab release Lucas into Jab 1. I like to follow up with dash canceled FSmash or JC-Usmash.

I don't have Lucas, but I don't think you can. Are you absolutely sure? Because you can't on anyone else.

 

[Shaya]

Grab release stuff always shows up as a combo in training mode although it -usually- isn't real.

 

[A_Kae]

Grab release stuff always shows up as a combo in training mode although it -usually- isn't real.

Why would grab release stuff ever show up as a combo? I've never seen anything like that. I've never seen anything show up as a combo with grab releases, even things that are.

 

[Shaya]

Aerial grab releases for whatever reason will always show as a combo until they land.

 

[Vipermoon]

Can the opponent act out of grounded grab release as soon as (same frame) you can? I would think so.

 

[A_Kae]

Can the opponent act out of grounded grab release as soon as (same frame) you can? I would think so.

If I recall correctly, it's something like 30 frames for both on ground release, and about 40 for the grabbed character, and 30 for the grabbing character on air release.

Maybe I'm wrong, I don't know the exact frame data, (or if it's even the same for everyone) I just think it's something like that.

Anyways, it should be the same frame for ground, so the Lucas thing shouldn't work, unless Lucas is different for some reason. Can't test, don't have him, I don't really care about Lucas enough to pay money.

 

[Admiral_Dante]

YeaI I remember testing this, it definitely isn't a real thing. Just something catch your opponent off guard.

 

[A_Kae]

So, I'm testing my numbers in training mode, and Jab 1 > F-smash does show as a combo at 154% on Marth. I can't get it to combo at 138%, which should be happening if jab is hitting on F6. And just from looking at the animation, it doesn't look like jab can hit Marth on F6, just F5.

@ Vipermoon are you sure that Jab 1 can hit grounded Marth on Frame 6? I'm just not seeing this happening, and it's not looking like a spacing issue to me, or a timing issue for the f-smash. It just seems like Jab will only ever be hitting on F5.

Edit: So after looking at the individual frame from this gif: http://i.imgur.com/2ERmAiN.gif, it seems like Jab 1 hits too high on F6 to actually hit Marth. So unless someone can say for sure that Jab 1 hitting a grounded Marth on F6 is possible, I'm just going to say that 154 is the earliest you can get Jab 1 > F-smash as a true combo. Earlier with rage or if Jab is fresh, since training mode doesn't have rage or staling.