The Mario Rediscussion Thread. Currently Rediscussing: Diddy Kong

[A2ZOMG]

What do you do against a Falco that constantly laser camps and SideBs whenever you get close?

My friend doesn't like to fight me up close since I usually beat him there once I start hitting him, although if I manage to get really close, it's a ridiculous guessing game to punish Falco's spotdodge. Another thing that really annoys me is that Falco's D-air trades with U-air juggles.

And as for DEHF...he basically showed me the hard way that you are not allowed to airdodge against pro Falcos. He really knows how to space and time those F-smashes...and I forgot what else happened besides I got owned due to a lack of matchup experience against "pro status".

 

[Sleek Media]

I'd like to hear more about Falco. I feel pretty safe in this match. Like I said before, upB ruins his chaingrab, which is his bread and butter. Reflector is the biggest problem for me. It's fast, does decent damage, is safe to use, can trip, and (obviously) reflects our fireballs. Most Falcos hardly ever use it, though...is there a good reason for this?

Edit:
A2Z, cape that side B. If timing is a problem, I believe that neutral air also beats it. You could also try jumping in with FLUDD - you might force him to land in a bad place (start juggling). Beat his sidesteps with your jab.

 

[Matt07]

Falco gives me troubles as well. I got wrecked by one a few weeks ago...he came back from a 2 stock deficate in the second match, and 2 stocked me in the first match D:.

 

[BSP]

A2

cape or just jump over the lasers as you approach. I would try to get right outside of jab range. If he lasers, you can run up and shieldgrab his landing. You could punish a roll toward you, and follow a roll away from you to get in the same position. If he standing lasers, just cape them back. If he phantasms toward you, try nair, or u smash if you're sure he will phantasm. And if he does jab, stutter step fsmash him.

And unfortunately, you're pretty screwed above falco. You could try to cape stall to mess up timing, but his aerials will win if he's under you.

 

[Inferno3044]

I'm putting D3 as 65:35. Honestly, I go Luigi for this MU because CGs can aggravate me. I might use Kirby against D3 in time when I work on a Kirby.

Falco starts now.

 

[hippiedude92]

personally thinking Falcos CQC game > Marios CQC but not by much, prolly by like a dot lol

lasers are the worst to deal with in the game since its like best controlling projectile everrrrrr. luckily mario has some good options against it thankfully

cape, duck, ps, somewhat fludd, dash attack, dtilt, jab1

 

[Matt07]

Doesn't Luigi do worse vs Dedede? Can't see how Luigi does better, other then KO'ing him. Kirby would be the best bet, Inferno.

Anyways on to Falco lol, and yea Laser's annoying.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Luigi can Jab cancel Up-B DDD surprisingly, so actually he's okay against DDD.

 

[$Lil' Gerald Is In Dat Style$]

I'd like to hear more about Falco. I feel pretty safe in this match. Like I said before, upB ruins his chaingrab, which is his bread and butter. Reflector is the biggest problem for me. It's fast, does decent damage, is safe to use, can trip, and (obviously) reflects our fireballs. Most Falcos hardly ever use it, though...is there a good reason for this?

Edit:
A2Z, cape that side B. If timing is a problem, I believe that neutral air also beats it. You could also try jumping in with FLUDD - you might force him to land in a bad place (start juggling). Beat his sidesteps with your jab.

Up B ruins his CG if he doesn't CG fast enough

 

[BSP]

Luigi can Jab cancel Up-B DDD surprisingly, so actually he's okay against DDD.

the only problem is that whenever luigi gets close enough to do that, he's in grab range. D3's grab range is stupid. D3 will still probably live from a shoryuken at about 75, stage dependent though.

 

[HeroMystic]

Is Luigi able to be chaingrabbed or is it infinite-only? I remember something about DDD players discovering how to chaingrab Luigi.

As for Falco: Straightforward match-up. If they're camping hard with Lasers, just shut down his camp game. That simple.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Yeah, I mean I got the matchup down except I really don't know how to consistently stop my friend from simply running away. I literally don't know how to react when he SideBs, and I'm insanely frustrated solely relying on my superior prediction skills to significantly punish him at all.

 

[mars16]

Falcon is the worse of the 3 Rodents in space in a way of being the better annoyence

Falco Players spam to much and when you try to get close they always throw there reflecter at you

You can see it coming...somtimes....but still annoying, If they wouldn't have gave him that abilty he'd possibly be b to c tier matieral............I think.

Any way Falco's Projectile and reflecter keeps Mario off balance

But I don't think he has that much Killing power as Mario and his recovery sucks


Look at my grammar

 

[UberMario]

Yeah, I mean I got the matchup down except I really don't know how to consistently stop my friend from simply running away. I literally don't know how to react when he SideBs, and I'm insanely frustrated solely relying on my superior prediction skills to significantly punish him at all.

If he's running away, why not just out-camp him? (and is he SideB-ing on the ground, in the air, or both? Is he spamming it or just using it when you back away/approach?)

I'd say that the matchup is 55:45-60:40 in Mario's favor since his cape really screws up Falco's campiness, and FLUDD stops all of Falco's recovery moves in their tracks. Chain-grabbing really isn't a problem since it only goes up to 30-60%-ish and, for the most part, Mario doesn't really need to approach on the ground due to his fireballs and somewhat better aerials.

 

[$Lil' Gerald Is In Dat Style$]

Yeah, I mean I got the matchup down except I really don't know how to consistently stop my friend from simply running away. I literally don't know how to react when he SideBs, and I'm insanely frustrated solely relying on my superior prediction skills to significantly punish him at all.

Spam the cape

If he's running away, why not just out-camp him? (and is he SideB-ing on the ground, in the air, or both? Is he spamming it or just using it when you back away/approach?)

I'd say that the matchup is 55:45-60:40 in Mario's favor since his cape really screws up Falco's campiness, and FLUDD stops all of Falco's recovery moves in their tracks. Chain-grabbing really isn't a problem since it only goes up to 30-60%-ish and, for the most part, Mario doesn't really need to approach on the ground due to his fireballs and somewhat better aerials.

This match-up is not in Falco's favor, CG can be a problem depending on what Falco player u're playing b/c some Falco players can really CG perfectly w/ him. Mario needs to approach w/ cape b/c Falco is like one of best campers in the game. Mario and Falco seems to be even in ground game while Mario having the better aerial game. The cape is kinda have some lag to cape his lazers. Falco's Reflector > Mario's Cape.

 

[hippiedude92]

wow wtf are u talking about? lol

first of all on the luigi vs ddd, luigi does much easier with ddd than mario can deal with DDD, luigi CAN be CG'd by DDD ONLY if the DDD can PERFECT FRAME IT, which takes abit of tech skill to do, but Co 18 has done it pretty easily. Next is that, Luigi does not get gimped that easily from ddd compared to mario get cg'd offstage and gimped to hell. Luigi can just do a bunch of fair/dairs airdodges to bait ddd's grab if hes in grab range and turn it into jab1 and start his CQC game from there. idk why im even correcting this, this is mario boards lol.

next:

Spam the cape



This match-up is not in Falco's favor, CG can be a problem depending on what Falco player u're playing b/c some Falco players can really CG perfectly w/ him. Mario needs to approach w/ cape b/c Falco is like one of best campers in the game. Mario and Falco seems to be even in ground game while Mario having the better aerial game. The cape is kinda have some lag to cape his lazers. Falco's Reflector > Mario's Cape.

i might have intepreted this wrong but he said mario's favor not falcos favor? lol but Marios cape > falco reflector, i have no clue what your talking about lol, esp marios cape OVERALL is better than falcos reflector, falcos reflector is laggier and ****tier and its VERY easy to bait (i havent looked in frame data but im sure falcos reflector is crap in terms of speed and other stuff compared to Marios cape) but really falcos reflector is just a minor poke and easy to bait.

also mario doesnt always need to approach with cape like i said before, he can easily approach with walking to PSing, full hop fireballs, and other stuff. And im sure Falcos can frame perfect the CG on Mario so mario can't upb out of it. Falco can rack up more damage on the ground than we can vice versa, but Marios air game > Falcos airgame

falcos spotdodge and roll and his evasive game is really broken lol but mario can stop it. from what i've seen Larry do, they usually camp until you approach and stop you with their frame 2 jab and frame 5?? ftilt and/or run away with phantasm.

if the falco likes to use phantasm, then look for the required conditions that forces him to use it. l know that most falcos will use it to run away in case they feel endanger'd ESPICALLY if they're being corner'd to the edge, just predict it and use fireball/nair/dair /jab1 and be quick on the timing its not hard at all lol.

falcos cg/lasers/phantasm/somewhat ground game imo is what makes the MU either 45:55 Falco or 6/4 falco, 5:5 even seems not that crazy realistic but might be possible i guess.

 

[mars16]

I gotta agree with Hippie 45:55

Falco's ground game is strong

They both have low killing Power but Mario can kill faster because Falco's Lighter

Also the fastest way Mario can kill Falco is edgegaurding

When it comes to stages like Eldwins Bridge, its more difficult for Mario

Stages with lots of platforms like Porky city..I forget..Messes up Falco's Projectile

Flat stages better use for Falco's Gun

It may depend on stage

 

[hippiedude92]

porky city and that bridge stage are banned from tourneys

we're talking competitive play made for stages that are from neutral/cp list

lol

 

[$Lil' Gerald Is In Dat Style$]

wow wtf are u talking about? lol

first of all on the luigi vs ddd, luigi does much easier with ddd than mario can deal with DDD, luigi CAN be CG'd by DDD ONLY if the DDD can PERFECT FRAME IT, which takes abit of tech skill to do, but Co 18 has done it pretty easily. Next is that, Luigi does not get gimped that easily from ddd compared to mario get cg'd offstage and gimped to hell. Luigi can just do a bunch of fair/dairs airdodges to bait ddd's grab if hes in grab range and turn it into jab1 and start his CQC game from there. idk why im even correcting this, this is mario boards lol.

next:

i might have intepreted this wrong but he said mario's favor not falcos favor? lol but Marios cape > falco reflector, i have no clue what your talking about lol, esp marios cape OVERALL is better than falcos reflector, falcos reflector is laggier and ****tier and its VERY easy to bait (i havent looked in frame data but im sure falcos reflector is crap in terms of speed and other stuff compared to Marios cape) but really falcos reflector is just a minor poke and easy to bait.

also mario doesnt always need to approach with cape like i said before, he can easily approach with walking to PSing, full hop fireballs, and other stuff. And im sure Falcos can frame perfect the CG on Mario so mario can't upb out of it. Falco can rack up more damage on the ground than we can vice versa, but Marios air game > Falcos airgame

falcos spotdodge and roll and his evasive game is really broken lol but mario can stop it. from what i've seen Larry do, they usually camp until you approach and stop you with their frame 2 jab and frame 5?? ftilt and/or run away with phantasm.

if the falco likes to use phantasm, then look for the required conditions that forces him to use it. l know that most falcos will use it to run away in case they feel endanger'd ESPICALLY if they're being corner'd to the edge, just predict it and use fireball/nair/dair /jab1 and be quick on the timing its not hard at all lol.

falcos cg/lasers/phantasm/somewhat ground game imo is what makes the MU either 45:55 Falco or 6/4 falco, 5:5 even seems not that crazy realistic but might be possible i guess.

I meant to say this match-up is not in Mario's favor, my bad.

 

[mars16]

porky city and that bridge stage are banned from tourneys

we're talking competitive play made for stages that are from neutral/cp list

lol

Ohh my bad I've only been in one tournament, witch is the day the game first came out

I didn't now

 

[UberMario]

This match-up is not in Mario's favor, CG can be a problem depending on what Falco player u're playing b/c some Falco players can really CG perfectly w/ him.

I agree, but it's not as intimidatingly effective as, say, DeDeDe's, even though it can make the momentum of a match sway if done consistently.

Mario needs to approach w/ cape b/c Falco is like one of best campers in the game.

Absolutely, and double-hop laser-caping with fireballs is a good counter, or at least it's a decent approach.
Air camping is an effective way to disrupt Falco's laser hops, either by altering the player's hop times or by being hit directly with a fireball, and the fact that caped lasers go right through normal ones makes Mario a good choice against a campy Falco.

Mario and Falco seems to be even in ground game while Mario having the better aerial game.

I think Falco is slightly better, but I typically don't fight him on the ground unless I'm going in for the kill, so I'm not entirely sure.

The cape is kinda have some lag to cape his lazers. Falco's Reflector > Mario's Cape.

Caped lasers go through normal lasers (or at least I think they did when I last brawled one, I may have to get back to you on that) and it usually takes three or four lasers before the cape and gun are noticably desynced, which shouldn't be a problem if you're jumpy. Cape has more uses than the reflector, and the Falcon Phantasm is the only attack it has no effect on what-so-ever (well except for the lag in the beginning and the freefall, where it's pretty nasty in mid-air) , which Fludd comes in handy for.

Falco's reflector also leaves him exposed to fireballs temporarily, and the only thing (other than reflecting of course) that it's effective at doing is tripping up opponents, which is one of the reasons I think that it's better to try to fight him in the air rather than the ground.

 

[Big-Omar]

Falco is gonna laser camp alot. So you're gonna have to PS them, duck, or cape them. What makes Falco really hard to fight is his lasers, so if you get rid of that, he's pretty easy to fight. Becareful though, because they make an annoying edgegaurd.

Falco's jab has good jab range >_> just Up B outta of it.

I have heard that UpB makes it possible to get out Falco's CG. Im pretty sure it only applies to his Running Chain Grab, and not his Walking Chain Grab. Not sure though.

Uair chains are gonna be hard to do on falco since it trades hits with dair and nair. Most of the time you'll want to space with bairs.

Fire Ball approaches and camping will be hard on this match up because of his reflector, so dont try that too much Also remember that his reflector can still reflect fire balls as it is still coming back to Falco. His reflector can also be used for spacing aswell. But you can still take advantage of his reflector because it takes time for it to come back to Falco. You can possibly punish him for it.

Falco's side b recovery is legit, but his Up B sucks. He's gonna recover with side b either into the ledge to sweet spot it, or recover onto the stage. If you can predict him, you can get an easy edgehog off of him. Or, you can cape it orFLUDD his side B and then proceed to cape,fsmash, or w/e. If he's recovery with Up B, well, its pretty much an easy edgehog/gimp. Most of the time, Falco is gonna be recovering with side be, so watch out for it.

Falco has only a few good kill moves in my opinion, which are Fsmash and Usmash. He's pretty limited to KOing, but he can rack up damage easily when he's camping, this is why you have to cape/dodge his lasers. Also, Falco's like to DAC their usmash, to be aware of that. Falco can bair or dair for edgegaurding too.


So all you gotta do is pretty much is stop his laser camping and this match up will be more simple than it actually seems. Just be aware of his CGs, camping, and edgegaurds. I think its 55:45 Falco's Favor just cus Falco has CGs and he has the best projectile in the game.

 

[HeroMystic]

I have heard that UpB makes it possible to get out Falco's CG. Im pretty sure it only applies to his Running Chain Grab, and not his Walking Chain Grab. Not sure though.

This is correct. Walking Chaingrab uses less frames and cannot be Up-B'd out of if done quickly enough.

I also agree with 55:45 Falco. This honestly isn't hard, but Lasers are still a ***** regardless.

 

[Inferno3044]

I'm gonna put it very simple stage wise.

CP: Lylat, Brinstar
Ban: FD, Japes (if legal)

Falco has a lot of trouble with Lylat and Brinstar because they mess up his laser game and his CG. Those two stages are also very good Mario stages. It's probably even on those stages maybe even Mario's advantage. BF is even. FD and Japes are like 6:4 Falco. Just about any other stage is 55:45 Falco.

As a reminder to all Mario's, you can't just say "PS the lasers." It won't work because SH double laser limits your approach significantly.

 

[MetalMusicMan]

As a Falco main, I totally agree that this is 55:45 Falco. I play a lot against Teh_Future, who mains IC's but has a very good Mario, among other things.

He has a slight advantage because of his overall better tool set, but it's a very, very close match. Both characters have pretty much equal options to mess the other one up with, with Falco in a slight advantage because of his Jab and better spacing utilities. Additionally, Mario's gimp game on Falco makes up for a lot, but even ignoring that, Mario has a great move set to deal with Falco on the stage as well.

 

[Big-Omar]

Man, I hate brinstar. I always lose on that stage. I'd rather take Falco to Lylat or BF.

 

[$Lil' Gerald Is In Dat Style$]

Brinstar is rly good stage, it's like BF to me, train on Brinstar and try to get used to it and pretend its like BF.

 

[Big-Omar]

Haha, I'll do just that then, Lil' G. Thanks for the tip.

 

[Inferno3044]

I'm with lil G. It's a bit like BF but the bottom isn't steady. This helps Mario primarily with his fireball game. That trait is normally a problem for most other characters. It's also why YI is a good Mario stage.

 

[$Lil' Gerald Is In Dat Style$]

The acid can assist you cuz Falco is gonna jump when the lava comes up it can give us the advantage to juggle him.

 

[Big-Omar]

Doesnt Brinstar have a low ceiling too? Because if it does, that can help us kill Falco earlier with Usmash.

 

[HeroMystic]

Brinstar has one of the lowest ceilings.

Also, what MMM said.

 

[Matt07]

But Falco does have an easier time landing up smash then us, and I think it's more stronger then our's too (right?)

 

[vato_break]

Falco can't kill if you dont approach him.Fludd him when he's lasering clip his second jump then just gimp. Personally i feel this is more stage dependant than anything because you can **** falco on certian stages and you can't **** him on certian stages.Regardless it's still in falcos favor.

2 stocked larry on SV.


jus sayin'

 

[Sleek Media]

Falco's only real chance is perfect chaingrab. Even then, it only helps him get to that first 50%. We can respond with upA juggling and a finisher for a solid 35% in return. Honestly, I think this match is close to even. His laser is worthless when we're on the stage, and his approach is weaker. This isn't Melee - Falco can't just blitz you until something gives. We can force mistakes and punish well. Mario is a nightmare against Falco's recovery. Still, if we do let him hit us with lasers, he can rush in there and do a good bit of damage. Bad recovery can also give him a free stock. Very straightforward.

 

[BSP]

I'm with MMM. This isn't a very hard matchup, but Falco just has a slight advantage. And brinstar is a good mario stage.

But, Falco does have some killing troubles. With good DI, you should live till about 150% or so, unless you get mindgamed into an fsmash. Usmash is fast, but pretty weak unless totally fresh, and dsmash is kinda weak.

 

[HeroMystic]

U-Smash is only a decent kill move. It's far weaker than Fox's, and honestly U-smash isn't the move you should be watching out for.

Falco's best kill moves are as follows:

-F-Smash (best kill move)
-B-air
-D-air (Gimp)
-D-Smash

U-Smash is more used for the Gatling Combo.

 

[Famous]

Falco's CG is nothing to be worried about....Hell, I even bait him into trying to CG me just to make Falco approach...

Gimping Falco offstage is pretty simple as well...Jab him off the edge if your near it and watch him fall, ledgeguard his UpB and cape..GG Falco

Falco's SideB can be stopped with Nair too

Laser Spam is just a ploy for us to approach..Once we actually approach Falco tends to SideB away..especially when a Falco knows that they can't win at close range...

 

[Big-Omar]

Hero is right about Usmash. I second Falco and I only use it for gatling combo out of Dthrow or after my CGs most of the time. Famous also is right about the laser spam. I tend to camp then Side B away when I know I cant battle at close range.

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

Falco has a better closeup game because jab has more range + more speed then everything ever existed + grab is epic on mario - +falco
Falco outcamps mario - +falco
Falco kills better then mario - +falco
Falco has more mobility - +falco
They both have an average recovery - neutral
Mario gimps better - +mario
Mario has a better aerial game - +mario
Mario has nice juggles (i put this apart because its so gewd) - +mario

I honestly don't see this as any worse then 60/40 for falco.