The Mario Rediscussion Thread. Currently Rediscussing: Diddy Kong

[BSP]

Unless you get lucky and hit wario off of his bike, I don't think you'll be gimping him. That jump from leaning back on his bike is insane. It could happen, but a good wario won't be getting gimped.

 

[Inferno3044]

Gimping is not something we should really be talking about. I tend to not always attempt to edgeguard Wario unless he's low. We can rack damage, but it chances are that we won't gimp him. Better yet, we do much better on stage. As I said before, bair beats all of Wario's aerials, fireballs make it unsafe to approach, and our much superior boxing game makes it easy to rack damage.

For Wario, he is a fat piece of lard that lives forever with very good kill power on selected moves (primarily Fsmash, Uair, and half charged fart to punish) crazy good aerial mobility, very good recovery, bite, and other good stuff.

A friend of mine who uses Wario as a secondary believes it's even. I honestly agree with that more than a 60:40 disadvantage. Mainly I'm saying I think it's either even or 55:45 Wario.

 

[vato_break]

can i see your friends tournament placings?? lol i play with a wario that consistantly gets top 20...trust me this is no where near even maybe if mario had more kill power eh...still probably not..

 

[$Lil' Gerald Is In Dat Style$]

Man, his freakin' aerial movement breaks my thumb, o mai ******* gawd.....

 

[Inferno3044]

You gotta camp him. It's an annoying and boring MU but that's how you gotta play it. He can't outcamp you because although he'll weave around some fireballs, he won't be approaching. It isn't safe enough.

 

[A2ZOMG]

It's not even...Wario can get in through good vertical spacing or use of grabs, and he does SO MUCH DAMAGE per hit, and he kills earlier than he should.

Yes you can outspace him horizontally fairly easily, but from other directions and when you are defending, he can punish really hard, and his out of shield game is not to be trifled with.

Truth be told that Mario would probably could go neutral with better KO power, but it takes too long to kill him and gimps are rare in this matchup.

 

[Famous]

It's not even...It's around 60-40 at best for the time being....

 

[mars16]

If were done with Wario can we talk about Pit

 

[Matador]

His weight alone makes this 60:40. If you play Luigi, this is the matchup to use him. He does better in every way vs Wario.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Although Wario is allowed to spam F-smash fairly indiscriminately against Luigi keep in mind due to the massive shield pushback, and Luigi's Jab cancel does not lead into anything unblockable against Wario (well, besides the Jab again and of course grabbing).

 

[Matador]

I wouldn't spam anything indiscriminately vs Luigi, especially something as punishable as Wario's Fsmash if you miss.

 

[DtJ XeroXen]

Camp your balls off against Wario, Up-B OoS is a great punisher, (Truuust me) I played this matchup alot because Wario was Ducky's most-used character, it's also how I developed the majority of my defensive game.

All your OoS options are viable, and the like... blah,blah blah blah I AM XEROXEN!

Oh yeah... gimping will rarely happen.

 

[vato_break]

up oos against what exactly xero??

 

[DtJ XeroXen]

If you think they're going to try to poke your shield and retreat, that's when I'd generally use it. (Think Dair, Fair if they go for the retreat.)

 

[Inferno3044]

Apparently it's 6:4. Maybe it's something I don't see. Is that the agreed ratio?

 

[HeroMystic]

Yeah, it's 60:40. I can't see it as any lower than that. Wario's statistical advantages stops this from being even, whether we can **** him with B-air or not.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Wario just survives too long and does a lot more damage per hit. Mario is definitely viable in this matchup, but it's just statistically uphill.

 

[Inferno3044]

I know that even was a bit outrageous. I honestly think 55:45. I might be wrong though.

 

[hippiedude92]

def 6/4 imo its not really 55:45 imo, as said before, statistically hes just better but Mario can do this MU.

personally wouldnt heavily use fireballs cause theyre just so slow moving and wario can just airdodge past it lol

wario is just all about baiting and fully punishing, i think alot of our moves get past his, i preferably just stand in one place and dont get bait'd

of course thats if hes isnt on a stock lead lol

upair/bair /dair are perfect if he tries to cross over your shield/use airdodges etc

 

[Matador]

Wario statistically has a huge survivability advantage whereas, statistically, Mario is on the opposite end of the spectrum.

60:40 statistically definitely.

 

[Inferno3044]

60:40 statistically definitely.

I'll put it in as 60:40.

Does anybody wanna rediscuss somebody?

 

[mars16]

Lets Rediscuss "Pit"

10Char...

 

[A2ZOMG]

Vs Pit is even. This matchup is similar to Falco, except everything works a bit better. Mario has a clear advantage in combo and KO options, but Pit on the other hand can rack up a lot of damage through his camping and punishing approaches.

 

[$Lil' Gerald Is In Dat Style$]

Pit don't look hard to beat w/ Mario.

 

[DtJ XeroXen]

****ing pit and his arrows gimping me wdf.

 

[BSP]

Vs Pit is even. This matchup is similar to Falco, except everything works a bit better. Mario has a clear advantage in combo and KO options, but Pit on the other hand can rack up a lot of damage through his camping and punishing approaches.

Plus Pit's swords will beat Mario's fists. Bair should still work well though.

 

[mars16]

Pit can rack up lots of Damage

He has to Reflectors

Projectile that can "Curve"

Faster attacks........I think

Also since he uses a sword he has more range and Priority

And he has a beasty Spot dodge (Standing in place and dodging)
______________________________

Mario

Heavier

Kills faster

Has Edge gaurder stuff, But I find it useless against his Pits Recovery so I try Spiking
Because how slow his recovery is
_____________

 

[A2ZOMG]

Vs Pit is one of few matchups where Jab U-tilt is very good (another one where you should do it is vs Samus). When you Jab him, his hurtbox bends forward a lot, so sweetspot Jabs will combo into U-tilt (and of course, Jab D-smash works just as well).

 

[Inferno3044]

****ing pit and his arrows gimping me wdf.

Keep your 2nd jump. Simple as that

Has Edge gaurder stuff, But I find it useless against his Pits Recovery so I try Spiking
Because how slow his recovery is

By this, I'm gonna say you have never played a good Pit. Luckily, I played yesterday (technically today is Saturday where i am). Pit's recovery is amazing and WoI is an amazing move in general. WoI lets out a wind box which pushes you back. On top of that, it auto sweetspots the ledge and gives you amazing aerial mobility. WoI can be used very well offensively as well as he can easily get close to you in a matter of seconds regardless of your place, cancel it and attack. Spiking Pit is not a good idea and won't work often.

It's almost 2am here. I'll give more info later.

 

[NightSky]

Pit is gay >_>...especially the one's that plank..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=36QFU59buss

 

[$Lil' Gerald Is In Dat Style$]

Pit is gay >_>...especially the one's that plank..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=36QFU59buss

Uhh, Night, that Pit player looks easy to ****, you hardly use the cape to reflect his arrows.

 

[UberMario]

Pit can rack up lots of Damage

Do you know how to DI? I had noticed the last time that we played that kill moves that took 170% for me to be ko'd by only took 120% for you.

He has to Reflectors

How to counter Mirror: Do anything lol it's pretty useless if you don't spam fireball.
How to counter the spinning blade: FSmash breaks through it just fine.

Projectile that can "Curve"

Use the cape, the funny thing is they tend to follow the route back to their creator since the controls are reversed, even when it's aimable.

Faster attacks........I think

Which are as loud and noisy as a character's move can get.

Also since he uses a sword he has more range and Priority

Which moves are you referring to, his smashes, jab, <B, or aerials?

And he has a beasty Spot dodge (Standing in place and dodging)

LOL
______________________________

Mario

Heavier

Kills faster

True.

Has Edge gaurder stuff, But I find it useless against his Pits Recovery so I try Spiking
Because how slow his recovery is
_____________

LOL ARE YOU SERIOUS?!?!?! His recovery is one of the easiest to gimp since he doesn't have that many choices on how to counter while he's in his state without falling to his doom. You can gimp him with a NeutralA or even a footstool over and over.


Anyway, I think this matchup is 55:45-60:40 Mario's favor. Mario and Pit are both good at camping, gimping, and aggresive playing, but most of Pit's kills are going to result from his USmash and DSmash making it a bit easier to predict. Mario can cape most of his arrows, although a very good pit will probably use a circling arrow combo as a mindgame in order to counter. As long as you are not in close range, Pit's reflectors are almost useless (unless you're playing arrow tennis with him, but you can just hop out of the way then) and the mirror is just asking for a grab/USmash. Pit's recovery is amazing if you don't edgeguard aggresively, but once he's in his "Wings of Icarus" state he's pretty much a sitting duck until he's above ground. The only problem is that he can edgeguard nearly as affectively using his aerials and multiple jumps, which evens up the matchup should you end up over the edge. Always try to bring Pit to an open stage like Final Destination or Smashville since configurations like Norfair and Battlefield really bring out their camping style, making it hard to approach for a kill.

 

[A2ZOMG]

I played Kspam, the 2nd best Pit in California keep in mind. I don't think the matchup is clearly in Mario's favor. All games I played against Kspam were last stock last hit. Matchup is SUPER close.

Pit is VERY hard to approach. His Jab and F-smash guarantee that, and his F-smash is like a mini Snake F-tilt...does like 19% or something, and his Jab is very hard to SDI punish. If he SideBs, F-smash him. If he MIS-SPACES Jab, you can F-smash him (if it hits, it's too hard to SDI into a favorable position). Being able to capitalize off of Jabs and juggles is very critical for Mario in this matchup.

Pit doesn't have Mario's great combos or KO power and his approach is weak, but his defensive game is significantly better. Who wins the matchup depends on who picks up on approach/defense patterns better. Pit can do a lot more safe consistent damage than Mario if he plays correctly, while that is counterbalanced by the fact that Mario should generally survive to much higher percents.

Oh and never forget...Fireballs are your friend for edgeguarding him.

 

[Inferno3044]

LOL ARE YOU SERIOUS?!?!?! His recovery is one of the easiest to gimp since he doesn't have that many choices on how to counter while he's in his state without falling to his doom. You can gimp him with a NeutralA or even a footstool over and over.

LOL ARE YOU SERIOUS?!?!?!? I really hope you don't think Pit is an easy character to gimp. You're saying that a character with 3 mid air jumps, the ability to glide, and be able to give them extremely good aerial mobility in combonation of being able to change height on will is going to be easily gimped. Pit has a better chance of gimping Mario than the other way around probably.

Anyway, I think this matchup is 55:45-60:40 Mario's favor. Mario and Pit are both good at camping, gimping, and aggresive playing, but most of Pit's kills are going to result from his USmash and DSmash making it a bit easier to predict. Mario can cape most of his arrows, although a very good pit will probably use a circling arrow combo as a mindgame in order to counter.

Frame 4 Fsmash? That will kill. His bair can also kill.

As long as you are not in close range, Pit's reflectors are almost useless (unless you're playing arrow tennis with him, but you can just hop out of the way then) and the mirror is just asking for a grab/USmash.

This isn't a good point. A reflector won't work if you're in close range able to hit them with a non projectile. It's like saying Mario's Fsmash won't hit if they are too far away.

Pit's recovery is amazing if you don't edgeguard aggresively, but once he's in his "Wings of Icarus" state he's pretty much a sitting duck until he's above ground. The only problem is that he can edgeguard nearly as affectively using his aerials and multiple jumps, which evens up the matchup should you end up over the edge. Always try to bring Pit to an open stage like Final Destination or Smashville since configurations like Norfair and Battlefield really bring out their camping style, making it hard to approach for a kill.

Correction #1: Pit's recovery is amazing. Period.
Correction #2: Only a really crappy Pit will put themselves in a situation to get easily gimped. I tried Pit out for a bit and I never got gimped.

I played Kspam, the 2nd best Pit in California keep in mind. I don't think the matchup is clearly in Mario's favor. All games I played against Kspam were last stock last hit. Matchup is SUPER close.

I think it's even. Pierce claims that his brother is the best Pit and he's seen a lot of Pits. His Pit can beat his Marth. People underestimate Pit.

Pit is VERY hard to approach. His Jab and F-smash guarantee that, and his F-smash is like a mini Snake F-tilt...does like 19% or something, and his Jab is very hard to SDI punish. If he SideBs, F-smash him. If he MIS-SPACES Jab, you can F-smash him (if it hits, it's too hard to SDI into a favorable position). Being able to capitalize off of Jabs and juggles is very critical for Mario in this matchup.

I agree. The mis-spacing has no use to be used as an argument. Any misspaced move by a character which has a lower range than Mario's Fsmash can be punished by Fsmash.

Pit doesn't have Mario's great combos or KO power and his approach is weak, but his defensive game is significantly better. Who wins the matchup depends on who picks up on approach/defense patterns better. Pit can do a lot more safe consistent damage than Mario if he plays correctly, while that is counterbalanced by the fact that Mario should generally survive to much higher percents.

You play a very campy Pit then. Play a Pit who knows how to go on the offense.

 

[HeroMystic]

Frame 4 Fsmash? That will kill. His bair can also kill.

F-Smash is not a kill move.

People underestimate Pit.

More like people never seen a Pit in action. I never seen WoI used offensively until NightSky's vid. Pit is my least-fought match-up period.

 

[A2ZOMG]

You play a very campy Pit then. Play a Pit who knows how to go on the offense.

Mario wins if Pit goes on the offensive, which should rarely happen since Pit fundamentally is better at forcing the approach. Pit doesn't have Metaknight's insane punish and spacing game, and Mario does a much better job comboing Pit than the other way around.

 

[mars16]

[


By Uber
LOL ARE YOU SERIOUS?!?!?! His recovery is one of the easiest to gimp since he doesn't have that many choices on how to counter while he's in his state without falling to his doom. You can gimp him with a NeutralA or even a footstool over and over.

I wAS trying t0o qoute this by its self, I don't know How
_)_______________________


Yea I'm serious, his recovery is like ROB'S, Allows him to move around and stuff

Unlike Mario's, his last longer

Makes him easier to spike though, if a Pit try's to flap his way to the edge

Instead of getting some hight first

 

[Inferno3044]

F-Smash is not a kill move.

You're right. My bad. A fresh Fsmash will kill but chances are it won't be fresh.

More like people never seen a Pit in action. I never seen WoI used offensively until NightSky's vid. Pit is my least-fought match-up period.

Once again you're right. Nobody really uses Pit.

Mario wins if Pit goes on the offensive, which should rarely happen since Pit fundamentally is better at forcing the approach. Pit doesn't have Metaknight's insane punish and spacing game, and Mario does a much better job comboing Pit than the other way around.

Look up Umbra on youtube. He is not a campy Pit and is very good. The vids of him are old but they'll have to do.

 

[BSP]

[



LOL ARE YOU SERIOUS?!?!?! His recovery is one of the easiest to gimp since he doesn't have that many choices on how to counter while he's in his state without falling to his doom. You can gimp him with a NeutralA or even a footstool over and over.

I wAS trying t0o qoute this by its self, I don't know How
_)_______________________


Yea I'm serious, his recovery is like ROB'S, Allows him to move around and stuff

Unlike Mario's, his last longer

Makes him easier to spike though, if a Pit try's to flap his way to the edge

Instead of getting some hight first

Dude, you won't be gimping pit, just drop it.

Anyways, there's not much I can say since I haven't fought any Pits offline.

 

[vato_break]

i play with THE BEST PIT in california ....once i get back ill make my little post i also have a match vs sagemoon up so yeah ;]