The Mario Match-up Index (Updated as of 1/14/10)

[PKNintendo]

Alright some decent stuff.

Ness stage counterpicks

Tetra's pirate stage.

NO GIMPING!
I love this stage and we don't have to deal with using our recovery. This is Ness playground, what with water spiking (which Mario can do at a lesser extent) and surviving.

Delphino plaza is decent for Ness many points of stage too.

FD is decent, but the edge sucks, and gimping is easier.

PS: What are Mario's best stage.

 

[Matt07]

IMO I think Mario does best in Rainbow Cruise/Battlefield.

But if you take Sonic/ROB/Snake on (yea he can amazing here too)/GW/MK on RC you'll have a hard time gimping.

 

[Takeshi245]

IMO I think Mario does best in Rainbow Cruise/Battlefield.

But if you take Sonic/ROB/Snake on (yea he can amazing here too)/GW/MK on RC you'll have a hard time gimping.

That also reminds me that people show choose Rainbow Cruise more. It's such a nice place to look at and Mario just loves it there!

 

[Matt07]

Haha yes it is.

Also, I could see FIHL-->Hydroplained (?) usmash being a good use for Squirtle's FIHL.

 

[vadgama]

That also reminds me that people show choose Rainbow Cruise more. It's such a nice place to look at and Mario just loves it there!

alot of people that ive met hate the Rainbow lvl

 

[hippiedude92]

Water gun can still gimp. Lol.

 

[Judge Judy]

Water gun can still gimp. Lol.

How often is Water Gun going to gimp Mario by itself though?

 

[HeroMystic]

Water gun can still gimp. Lol.

You and I both know that Water Gun/FLUDD doesn't gimp alone unless it's against a specific character.

 

[hippiedude92]

What do you mean specific character ? o.0. The only follow ups i can think off is probably Fair/Dair/DAC. But remember that squirtle's role is mad to be having a advantage over mario. The only threatening and most PT players will be using squirtle is his dthrow for 100%+ kills

its not that hard to gimp mario :/

 

[HeroMystic]

What do you mean specific character ?

Ike's Up-B, Fox/Falco/Wolf's Up-B or Side-B. Things like that.

its not that hard to gimp mario :/

Indeed, but lets be realistic here. Squirtle can't take much damage. If they're going to use Squirtle only at 100%, you have to keep in mind of the damage that Charizard takes (who is quite comboed pretty heavily by Mario). Switch to squirtle, and one U-Smash is all it takes.

I mean, seriously. This sounds like the Shiek/Zelda match-up all over again.

 

[hippiedude92]

I meant that if Zard/Ivy loses a stock and then they bust out squirtle if mario's around 100%+ or so they'll just be looking for a Dthrow kill. Then they'll just switch to next pokemanzz. They don't keep squirtle out for long (to my knowledge/experience that is).

Edit: i just completely misread the quote lol. bleh. >.> hecka lazy

 

[BoTastic!]

Squirtle's Dthrow does not kill Mario at 100% with good DI. It takes at least 135%+

 

[Retro Gaming]

Squirtle's Dthrow does not kill Mario at 100% with good DI. It takes at least 135%+

This is true.

Anyway, I don't really know how to use Water Gun and I've never really tried to figure it out. I believe that the first bit of water that comes out has the larger push back, and anything that comes out toward the end of the attack barely has any push back. Versus Mario Water Gun's only going to be useful if Mario doesn't try to sweet-spot the ledge.

 

[BoTastic!]

Retro Gaming, where in IL do you live? You plan on coming to Play N trade II? (I know random, but i wanna know)

 

[Steeler]

does ivysaur's bair cancel out fireballs? i think so. it also outranges all of mario's attacks except maybe the fsmash so...:\ not gonna be easy approaching ivysaur. onstage, ivy goes even or even better than mario does. bullet seed/nair are c-c-c-combo breakers. so don't dismiss ivy just because of the gimpability. which, btw, isn't even that much of a +1 for mario since ivy's recovery is a tether and isn't affected much by a cape. just tether out of the hitstun. :\ if mario can both fludd and hog the edge before ivy tethers then i can see it being pretty useful. otherwise, it would only be useful when ivy's at the edge of its tether range. i find it ironic that i see "ivysaur is gimped, advantage mario" when you just came to the conclusion that ness is an even matchup for mario...

zard and squirtle should both be around neutral. squirtle and mario are pretty similar. i LOL when i see comments like "mario has the advantage because he can combo with utilt/uair" when squirtle does it even better than mario does.

overall this is a pretty neutral matchup, as is most everything with pokemon trainer.

 

[BoTastic!]

btw, isn't even that much of a +1 for mario since ivy's recovery is a tether and isn't affected much by a cape

yes it is. Cape stalling on Ledge=More invincibility frames and no tether recovery for Ivy. Once Ivy is offstage, he's screwed.

 

[Retro Gaming]

Retro Gaming, where in IL do you live? You plan on coming to Play N trade II? (I know random, but i wanna know)

Yeah, I actually should be over there for that since I'm approximately twenty minutes away.

I just looked at the first page and I disagree with the numbers. I agree that Squirtle has a disadvantage but Mario sure isn't a hard counter. I also feel that, were it not for Mario's Fsmash, Ivysaur would be overall better than Charizard in this match-up.

With Charizard I usually take like 40% if I come out at 0% from Uair, Dair, and Nair, but after that I feel Mario has a much harder time doing any of that. Cape is actually pretty easy to nail Charizard with. You come from below if you want to be safe.

All I know for sure is that 30:70 Squirtle is wrong. I only have a litte experience versus Mario.

 

[HeroMystic]

All I know for sure is that 30:70 Squirtle is wrong. I only have a litte experience versus Mario.

Ignore the chart for now (I'm updating it when we get to a conclusion with all the pokemons), and look at the list.

Squirtle is 40:60 Mario.

 

[Steeler]

what is cape stalling on the ledge? grabbing the ledge, releasing, caping, then regrabbing?

 

[SkylerOcon]

what is cape stalling on the ledge? grabbing the ledge, releasing, caping, then regrabbing?

You can cape on the ledge and regrab it. Like ledgegrab, cape, and then you'll grab the ledge. Excellent for edgehogging.

 

[HeroMystic]

what is cape stalling on the ledge? grabbing the ledge, releasing, caping, then regrabbing?

Pretty much.

 

[BoTastic!]

Because of the physics in brawl, Mario will automatically grab the ledge if you cape the opposite way while edge hogging.

 

[Matador]

what is cape stalling on the ledge? grabbing the ledge, releasing, caping, then regrabbing?

It's just like Link, TL's, or Samus's tether ledgehog

 

[Steeler]

i see. but why do that and risk ivysaur tethering as you cape when you can just...hold on to it? lol

 

[BoTastic!]

i see. but why do that and risk ivysaur tethering as you cape when you can just...hold on to it? lol

Thats not risking anything. Caping gives Mario more invincibility frames.

 

[Takeshi245]

Thats not risking anything. Caping gives Mario more invincibility frames.

Caping is also another reason why Ness gets thrashed off the stage! If Mario's capestalling and Ivysaur's underneath him with no second jump, chances are Ivysaur's done. He has a bad recovery so it doesn't surprise me.

 

[Mmac]

http://img135.imageshack.us/img135/4383/matchupchartv3bt2.png

I updated the template to the design of my better Matchup Charts, and to the new Tier List

 

[Matt07]

Thanks Mmac, greatly appreciated .

 

[HeroMystic]

So it's looking like...

Charizard: 55:45 Mario
Squirtle: 60:40 Mario
Ivysaur: 60:40 Mario

Overall: 60:40 Mario

amirite?

 

[Matt07]

Sounds good to me.

 

[SkylerOcon]

I think Ivysaur is 65:35 Mario, but I'll settle for 60:40.

 

[Steeler]

i think the zard matchup is pretty even. not easy to gimp. mario's recovery is quite limited so gliding helps quite a bit here. negates fludd's usefulness. fly super armor, extra air jump...

mario can combo zard pretty well at low percent, although rock smash and flamethrower help zard keep pace.

but a really solid strategy here is to use ivysaur at low percent and then switch charizard at mid to high percent. tada, ivy's biggest weak of gimpability is gone and zard's biggest weak of comboz is gone. ivysaur and charizard together has a slight advantage, imo. it's taking the best of both pokemon and completely negating the biggest negatives. PT matchups are not just an average of the three pokemon, it simply does not work like that in practice unless the PT simply never switches aside from auto switch on death.

we've yet to really discuss ivy's stage control, which is effective against mario's limited range and average mobility. bair cancels out fireballs and air approaches. nair gives ivy a solid up close option so mario isn't all "lol autowin" if he penetrates. bullet seed can surprise you and turn a bad situation for ivy into 30% on mario...kind of like jiggly rest but a tad slower. bair also works if ivy's back is facing you. ivysaur does a great job outranging and spacing mario on the ground with ftilt, dtilt, pivot grabs, jabs.

not sure how razor leaf v fireballz works out.

i think ivysaur has the advantage on stage while mario obviously has gimping going for him. but we've all completely negated ivysaur's gimpage on mario! bairs are very frustrating and ivy can tether the ledge immediately afterward so you can't use it if you are in a bad spot. it seems like mario occasionally needs his (really big) ledge sweetspot on the up b to recover...ivysaur's tether fixes that in a jiffy. if you happen to land on stage, ivy can just punish you with a fair or nair or even uair if ivy reacts quick enough. ivysaur nair spikes and is unexpected. mario's vertical recovery is just average so a nair spike could often be a stock.

 

[Judge Judy]

i think the zard matchup is pretty even. not easy to gimp. mario's recovery is quite limited so gliding helps quite a bit here. negates fludd's usefulness. fly super armor, extra air jump....

Mario's recovery distance is pretty irrelevant while he's edgeguarding since most of his edgeguarding options don't require him to move far offstage and he still has the cape glide if he needs to go far offstage quickly. Also, cape and FLUDD both ignore SA frames and Charizard's glide and jumps are both pretty slow.

mario can combo zard pretty well at low percent, although rock smash and flamethrower help zard keep pace..

Charizard is going to have to space all his atks and abuse his range, which he can do, but it proves to be a chore when Mario is faster and even better at camping than Charizard; Charizard can do well in this match but he's going to have to play carefully every step of the way.

we've yet to really discuss ivy's stage control, which is effective against mario's limited range and average mobility. bair cancels out fireballs and air approaches. nair gives ivy a solid up close option so mario isn't all "lol autowin" if he penetrates. bullet seed can surprise you and turn a bad situation for ivy into 30% on mario...kind of like jiggly rest but a tad slower. bair also works if ivy's back is facing you. ivysaur outclasses mario on the ground with ftilt, dtilt, pivot grabs, jabs..

Ivysaur's main problem against Mario is keeping Mario outside his range because once Mario is inside there's little Ivysaur can do since even his Nair isn't a very good GTFO me move against Mario. Ivysaur has good range but he has a hard time abusing it since Mario can cancel most of his atks with the FLUDD and can approach with fireballs.

i think ivysaur has the advantage on stage while mario obviously has gimping going for him. but we've all completely negated ivysaur's gimpage on mario! bairs are very frustrating and ivy can tether the ledge immediately afterward so you can't use it if you are in a bad spot. it seems like mario occasionally needs his (really big) ledge sweetspot on the up b to recover...ivysaur's tether fixes that in a jiffy. if you happen to land on stage, ivy can just punish you with a fair or nair or even uair if ivy reacts quick enough. ivysaur nair spikes and is unexpected. mario's vertical recovery is just average so a nair spike could often be a stock.

Meh, Mario has great offstage defenses so gimping him is going to be tough unless you have the right tools; you might be able to pull off a tether ledgehog but I wouldn't count on much anything else.

 

[HeroMystic]

Also, Mario can cape Rock Smash, so that's -1 defensive move for Charizard.

 

[Steeler]

the point with mario's limited recovery is that when charizard glides, he doesn't need to worry about mario chasing him like mk/jiggs/pit can. at that point mario's out of options, except for fludd, which gliding really doesn't care about.

rock smash outranges all of mario's melee attacks, except for maybe fsmash. i'd like to see what fireballs do to rock smash. the move is also so amaaaaazing, that it can get charizard out of kirby's gonzo throw combos due to how quickly the boulder comes out. i wouldn't doubt rock smash doing the same to mario's utilt/uair stuff. mario also has to be careful or he eats 30-40% from rock smash so...

also charizard has the best non tether grab range in the game (better than d3's!). you will learn to hate it.

why isn't nair a good gtfo move against mario? don't forget bullet seed haha. canceling ivy's bair with fludd won't bother ivysaur that much because the move has a short duration. fireball approaches are completely canceled by the bair, i mentioned this in the previous post. and dtilt if it's on the ground in front of ivy. fireballs aren't completely useless here but they really aren't going to be that effective. so now mario can't consistently use fireballs to create openings and bair is a terrific anti-air move anyway...so it kind of limits mario's options a bit.

what are mario's offstage defenses? caping oncoming attacks?

 

[Matador]

Mario's recovery distance is pretty irrelevant while he's edgeguarding since most of his edgeguarding options don't require him to move far offstage and he still has the cape glide if he needs to go far offstage quickly. Also, cape and FLUDD both ignore SA frames and Charizard's glide and jumps are both pretty slow

Cape doesn't turn anything around during SA frames. They take the hit and the damage, but remain going in their original direction. That's why you can't cape Lucario during upB startup or Olimar during his downB. Fludd works fine though IIRC.

It doesn't really make much difference though. That just means that Mario has to pressure him into using it before he should or cape him before/after the upB.

I have Charizard as 60:40 and Ivy as 55:45

Charizard because I'm not seeing how he keeps Mario out. Rocksmash is a great defensive option normally, but I've found that cape can cause it to seriously backfire. Flamethrower's pretty decent as well, but it has punishable lag if you miss. The best weapon to have against Mario is a means to keep him from getting inside your range. Something like Ike's/ZSS' jab, Marth's Fair and DB, or Snake's tilts that keep him from consistently getting close. If Charizard has a means to do this throughout the fight, then I'll concede to even or adv Charizard, because he has the KO power, range, and general priority IIRC.

Ivy's a 55:45 imo because he can definitely keep Mario out well enough, but his defensive game has holes in it. Mario's MUCH faster than him, so he can take advantage of them and get inside, especially with fireballs for approach. Punishment won't be heavy if bullet seed and Nair are truly combo breakers, but Mario also kills him pretty quickly from Fsmash because of that silly fire mechanic, and gimps him pretty easily. Ivy kills well and outranges Mario, but Mario will be killing just as well, and even has the option to camp him.

Edit: Mario's offstage defenses are cape for stalling/dealing with oncoming projectiles or attacks, fireballs for preventing offstage approaches and ledgehogs (including tethers), Fludd to push lighter opponents back onstage for a safe upB to the ledge, Bairs if you decide to turn around with cape, Fair meteor if you aren't massively disjointed (ZSS, Mario, or Shiek for example). The greatest defense, however, is Mario's upB with invinicibility frames on startup, high priority, and stagespikes at 0% if you're on the ledge.

 

[HeroMystic]

Lol, here we go with the different ratios again.

All I'll say now is that Mario has the advantage on each character and against Pokemon Trainer overall.

Steeler, Charizard's Rock Smash can be caped, and seeing as how that's his best defense mechanism, that's bad for him.

I haven't played a good Ivy to comment about her spacing, but I know she's going to need more than "STAY AWAY FROM ME!" moves to win this.

 

[Matador]

That's just my opinion, take it as you will. My PT experience is pretty limited, so I could easily be wrong in some aspect.

 

[Judge Judy]

Cape doesn't turn anything around during SA frames. They take the hit and the damage, but remain going in their original direction. That's why you can't cape Lucario during upB startup or Olimar during his downB. Fludd works fine though IIRC.

Lucario doesn't have SA frames during his Up B's startup, that's something else; you can hit Lucario out of his Up B during startup, you just can't cape it for some reason. Try caping any move that has true SA such as Ike's aether, Ike's eruption, Olimar's whistle, Wario's Fsmash, etc. and the cape will turn them around and reverse momentum regardless of SA.

 

[Judge Judy]

the point with mario's limited recovery is that when charizard glides, he doesn't need to worry about mario chasing him like mk/jiggs/pit can. at that point mario's out of options, except for fludd, which gliding really doesn't care about.

Recovering high is the safest thing to do against Mario as long you have a good plan on getting back down.

rock smash outranges all of mario's melee attacks, except for maybe fsmash. i'd like to see what fireballs do to rock smash. the move is also so amaaaaazing, that it can get charizard out of kirby's gonzo throw combos due to how quickly the boulder comes out. i wouldn't doubt rock smash doing the same to mario's utilt/uair stuff. mario also has to be careful or he eats 30-40% from rock smash so...

Teh cape is ****.

also charizard has the best non tether grab range in the game (better than d3's!). you will learn to hate it.

Probably one of the best things Charizard on Mario but I wouldn't count on it making that much of an impact in this match-up.

why isn't nair a good gtfo move against mario?

Because Mario has aerials that come out faster than it.

don't forget bullet seed haha.

Good move but I wouldn't rely on it too much since it can be caped if your opponent sees it coming.

canceling ivy's bair with fludd won't bother ivysaur that much because the move has a short duration. fireball approaches are completely canceled by the bair, i mentioned this in the previous post. and dtilt if it's on the ground in front of ivy. fireballs aren't completely useless here but they really aren't going to be that effective. so now mario can't consistently use fireballs to create openings and bair is a terrific anti-air move anyway...so it kind of limits mario's options a bit.

You can't force Mario to approach and trying to just block fireballs and avoid the FLUDD isn't going to get you anywhere.

what are mario's offstage defenses? caping oncoming attacks?

FLUDD, fireballs, cape, and an Up B similar to Marth's.


Edit: Double post