Guide The Mario Match-Up Discussion Thread

[Bamesy]

LOL
There is no chance of Mario beating Luigi.
Not even close.
Fact*

I **** Marios and Docs all day, and do Mario dittos and Mario vs Doc all day.
Luigi is way too good...
for realz

Moving on, Sheik...
I need to find good Sheiks...
Lib3r4t3 where u at?

 

[A2ZOMG]

Lol, that argument is not fact. Eggz back in his day has beaten the crap out of good Luigis.

And most Mario players who have videos on youtube play the matchup SUB-OPTIMALLY. So thus there is no real evidence that Mario players are even using their full potential in the matchup.

 

[condemned_soul]

i Have not lost to a luigi yet unless you count doubles.....

 

[n0ne]

los

LOL
There is no chance of Mario beating Luigi.
Not even close.
Fact*

ive been playing lots of mario v luigis matchups this past week and ive come to a conclusion.
Leaning on what isaid multiple times before about this matchup, i was exagerating.
Mario def can pull **** on luigi. All he needs is a bit more spacing than usual,abusing d throws, front throws, 1-2-3 punches work surprisingly well, and d smash if its a CCing luigi OR dair is nice.
front or upsmash for kill.

Luigi IS a threat, but nothing shocking compared to foxs or sheiks natural ****.
But in the end nair is your best friend works so nice at close play .USE IT.

Mario v luigi 50-50. IMO.investigation result.

About matchups, i would like..
Samus - i have some trouble in this MU. I HATE SPOTDODGES.
ICs - I have 0.00% in this MU. id rather go ganon.
D.K. - people underestimate this ape. although i can combo hell of him.. i cant kill him, and he destroys my recovery with ledge invincibility up b. REAL ****

 

[M@1funk$hun]

last piece of advice before we go on to samus ( I have a friend who plays samus. the matchup is complicated ) don't counterpick FD. I figured this was pretty straightforward since we said luigi doesn't do well on platforms, but if you want to be an idiot you can argue that FD is just one giant platform.

Luigi is 50/50
final number
now we talk about Samoose

 

[StealthyGunnar]

i hate samus. u cant combo her well, well at least i cant, and she has ftilt and a great recovery. i guess we could try to drop down and cape..

 

[n0ne]

one of the few MUs fair and recharging smashes is a must to punish spotdodges
fair to grab
fair to dsmash --- if she is CCing , punish techchase
fair to fsmash

ledge cape mindgames are needed to kill
fbs destroy bombs

 

[A2ZOMG]

Samus counters Mario...that matchup is dumb as hell. At least 60/40 Samus, I'd lean towards 65/35.

You can't really combo her because of her weight and floatiness and gay N-air. She camps better, spaces better, KOs you better, and she is very hard to gimp. Also Bombs are stupid.

Basically she does everything Luigi does, except it all works much better. Well, her WD isn't as godly, but she doesn't really need to approach Mario, so it hardly matters.

___________

And as for Mario vs ICs, Mario ***** them. Just camp and space like hell. F-smash a lot (outranges everything they do, and tends to **** Nana). Run up and B-throw separates them brain dead easily. Plus Mario is 9001x better than Solo Popo.

I'd say 60/40 Mario. Boss makes the matchup look harder than it actually is because he's always approaching, so I think his videos are a horrible example of how to play the matchup.

 

[StealthyGunnar]

1. samus sucks. id def vote 60 40 her favor
2. ics i dont know about at all. i havent played any good 1s so ill just agree w/ u guys on this 1. 60 40 mario

 

[M@1funk$hun]

mmhmm it's the main reason I didn't want to discuss Mario vs IC's
okay heres my opinion on the metal chick
*sigh* My brain hurts after this matchup usually...

okay so first off your main concern is getting in there. you cannot outcamp her with your balls because she has larger, more shocking balls of her own. she also has a missile launcher. A ****ING MISSILE LAUNCHER.

but seriously the main way to get around these is jump over them and waveland. your cape is a little too slow for this because ever since hugs came back, they've been dash attacking the reflected missiles
=/
but mario is deceptively fast, so like I mentioned before use the sh waveland or fh dair approach.
sh bair waveland also works to destroy the missile. this throws them off guard.
believe it or not I use dash attack quite a bit in this matchup, use it sparingly still because it's high risk low reward kind of feel, but otherwise it gets under her and into combo range

pro tip: they like to fair from the ledge. alot. punish it hard because your fire beats her fire.

DI down and away. if she does anything that isn't dtilt/ftilt/fsmash/dsmash (which probably won't happen if they're smart) then you can punish it with a fsmash of your own

as stated above she is hard to combo but I mentioned this little tidbit in a thread somewhere else
bair > reverse uair > dj > bair > reverse uair
it's a quick little dmg dealer that does very well

EDGEGUARDING:
she kills you unless you sweetspot. which isn't difficult with Mario, but still be wary of it.
as for edgeguarding her
throw a lot of fireballs. try your best to be accurate because if you hit her out of a bomb jump, she just lost that much height
when she grapples the stage, don't be afraid to go down there
scorpion master also caped them while they were airdodging, which works great
against their upb just hang on to that ledge. there is nothing she can do to you just coming back onstage, grabbing her, and throwing her back off to which you do the only thing mario knows how to do
YOU: IS IT PLUMB?!?!
ME: No. Not plumb. it's bair. dumba$$.
don't shield pressure. grab grab grab because it's helpful to get dmg up on her. and thats about it

TL;DR sorry bro, theres useful info in here. read it.

 

[A2ZOMG]

There's an IC main up where I live at. I've played the matchup a few times, and we both agree that it's Mario's favor.

Your Smashes, especially F-smash are really easy to get away with safely on shield against the ICs. F-smash outranges the ICs pretty solidly at any rate, so it's a move you should be using fairly often against them. If they try to get cheeky with Blizzard, just fireball camp.

Also Mario separates the ICs really easily thanks to his B-throw, which hits both of them. After separating them, it's pretty easy to take on a lone Ice Climber. Mario's gimp game is more than enough to ensure that a lone Ice Climber is a dead one.

 

[M@1funk$hun]

no more samus input other than what I've said?

 

[A2ZOMG]

I thought your analysis was pretty good. Not much to say about it other than I don't really disagree with it.

 

[M@1funk$hun]

yeah but I figured there would be more perspectives to it
XD

 

[StealthyGunnar]

i havent played any samuses yet w/ mah mario, srry dudes.

 

[n0ne]

samus. charged shot. cape.

 

[C!Z]

luigis pretty **** vs mario

 

[M@1funk$hun]

samus. charged shot. cape.

they like to do this when you're recovering thinking you have few options
god it feels good to reflect that shi t
also if somebody can time an airdodge so that you get out of invinc. frames around the time you hit the back hitbox of the ball
I'd love you
(the theory being if you get hit by that box, you get sent toward the stage rather than to your death)

 

[MarioMariox2]

F-in homing missiles throw me off with their decreasing speed.

 

[n0ne]

they like to do this when you're recovering thinking you have few options
god it feels good to reflect that shi t
also if somebody can time an airdodge so that you get out of invinc. frames around the time you hit the back hitbox of the ball
I'd love you
(the theory being if you get hit by that box, you get sent toward the stage rather than to your death)

wow hey nice i hadnt thought of that

 

[M@1funk$hun]

because it's so insanely difficult to pull off lol
anyway are you guys cool with switching the char that needs to be discussed

 

[MarioMariox2]

Whats the numbers for Samus?

 

[StealthyGunnar]

60 40 samus i think.

 

[M@1funk$hun]

60-40 definetly
we unfortunately can't beat her tilts and fsmash

 

[Bamesy]

Cape messes me up when I play against Doc AS Samus.
Not projectiles so much (I don't like her projectiles so don't use them...like almost ever)
Against my ftilts and stuff. Cape has lots of range and spacing an attack facing the other way never works. >_>

Ciz knows wassup wit weegee

 

[Winston]

60-40 definetly
we unfortunately can't beat her tilts and fsmash

But Luigi who has a very similar tilt/smash range and cc is easy, right?

 

[A2ZOMG]

Samus's tilts and Smashes >>>>> Luigi's (except Up-smash). Plus Mario generally has to approach her.

Mario vs ICs is 6/4 Mario.

Top moves against the ICs:
B-throw
F-smash
D-smash (when they are trying to get back together)
Fireballs (if they try camping)

Basically do all those moves until Nana is dead. Then U-air blind Popo and B-air him to death. Matchup is easily in Mario's favor as long as you don't try too hard to approach the ICs when they are together.

 

[otg]

goddammit, you guys need to stop posting.

 

[j3ly]

never ever ever dsmash IC's shield, you will eat double dsmash
even if you fsmash their shield and buffer ur own, you will get caught often

IC's like to jam in shield cause people are scared of approaching them head on, and the IC's get a lil bit happy about that. counter with WD in bthrow - the spinning will knock the other IC away

samus is too easy, we have a cape and an fsmash that ***** her as does uair. a flurry of spaced uairs will always do you proud. tie that in with being one of the what, 5 playable chars (fox falco shiek doc mario) that can consistently **** with her recovery, along with the fact she LITERALLY CANT KILL YOU ONSTAGE UNTIL 140%, you have an easy matchup there. DL we are looking at 170% with great DI

dair AC -> utilt -> uair/bair + more uair ***** at all %'s

luigi is very even, we can **** eachother. problem being that luigi cant recover
just stay on a different level and you will be fine. i find that being on the ground near luigi results in getting *****, whereas being above/below him results in him getting *****

dont get caught out with WD ftilt/dsmash at tripping % and you'll be fine

 

[M@1funk$hun]

But Luigi who has a very similar tilt/smash range and cc is easy, right?

never said luigi was easy, and they're ranges are different

 

[A2ZOMG]

U-air juggles don't **** Samus. Her N-air is gay to space around, and her Bombs are also gay to deal with.

Caping against a Samus that has a full charge shot can actually be a pretty bad idea. Specifically caping her missiles.

All three of her tilts outspace the majority of your moves.

Honestly Hugs was in control of the fight almost the entire time in this vid. What would you have suggested Mango do here? I mean after all, he's the best Mario. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ujM9a1oyn5k

By the way, it's off topic, but observe 9:29. More Mario players need to do that.

 

[j3ly]

not juggles, it doesnt combo. have you ever played as peach for a cuple weeks?

its not like she is getting combo'd but she sure as **** cant get away. you may aswell be comboing her, cos her air speed is so slow and she cant get away - but they aren't combos. same applies to samus, just keep uairing her often she cant escape

bombs are deal able with. they are amazing for zoning and shield pressure though. just play some samus, spam the bombs and learn how to predict em

if you dont use cape against her missiles, your a dingus, and thats why i dont post anymore. if ur so scared of missiles, jump onto a platform and fireball when she shoots

you talk sooooooooo much breeze

apart from that its very very easy to predict when they are comming. just dont shield em, cos that gives her momentum and all the time she needs to start zoning you with bombs and ftilts.

you could loosely compare it to marth fox - marth outranges the crap out of fox, yet fox wins. why? edgeguarding and speed. same in this matchup, although marth edgeguards the living hell out of fox whereas samus cant edgeguard mario atall if you can DI

samus gives mario so much room to DI her hits, she cant edgeguard because you are never at stage level when recovering

 

[A2ZOMG]

Samus can't edgeguard Mario if you DI? You still have to have an answer to her N-air, which beats most of your aerials. And she can definitely counter Caped missiles with N-air as well, and punish you in the process. Hugs did something like that more than just once in that vid I posted. And Caping a Missile when Samus has full charge shot is very unwise.

Also I fail to see how Mario edgeguards Samus really well. B-airs are never going to kill her, and she has a lot of options to stall that can avoid the Cape. If anything, I don't see how Mario edgeguards Samus better than Samus edgeguards him. So yes, Mario is faster than Samus, but Samus still outranges him and doesn't really care that much about most of Mario's edgeguards. Also, even though Samus's grab is bad, her Up-B OOS is very annoying to deal with when approaching her.

 

[M@1funk$hun]

mario does edgeguard samus well
watch any doc/samus vids (because there is few high level mario/samus vids and doc edgeguards the same way we do)
usually if samus gets off stage, she doesn't come back

and what about her nair?
go above it
or go below it
not that hard
if she does it OOS, then you shouldn't be shield pressuring samus much anyway because she can upb you

 

[A2ZOMG]

DOC actually gimps the **** out of Samus with his B-air despite her being ultra floaty. Mario's on the other hand just gives her more height to Bomb jump with. Huge difference in this matchup. Yes you can land a lot of B-airs on her recovery, but against Mario she's gonna almost certainly make it back.

It's easy to say don't shield pressure Samus, just use good spacing. Oh wait, Samus's tilts outrange you. ****!

 

[M@1funk$hun]

everytime I bair samus I end up with a succesful edgeguard

if you really want to get into the shield pressure situation, fine
you put out a jab. she nairs. if you're at low percent then you can CC it and you should be fine
at higher percents if you get nair'd (just in general because I'm not a big fan of shield pressure after about 60%) then DI up and away to which you will still be fine

 

[j3ly]

A2ZOMG - when people refer to spacing, especially when refering to shield pressure, it generally means against the shield -_- we can outdo her shield with either AC -> quick attack or late LC -> watever the **** we want. funny how you dont mention upBoos(apart from as an anti approach), and instead refer to nair oos. nairs range may be godly, but there are techs around it. plus a whiff leaves her extreamly open, ill take my chances and work on anti upBoos strategies instead.

perhaps she can punish me with a weak nair AC if she times the missile perfectly and her dash perectly and happens to be the perfect distance away at the time of my cape

but hey, PMS can never get this on me, and hugS - the best samus - managed to get it like what, twice so i dont deem it much of a threat atall tbh :/ mango shud have CC'd if he didn't.

----

you have to fireball her airdodge
fireball her bombs - 1 fireball = almost certain death

i cba to list everything, cause she has too many options. see it in 2 phases - get rid of her grapple, and she has a ****ty recovery like everybody else. thats far more difficult than destroying her recovery when she lacks grapple, which is easy.

she has around 4 generic options with the grapple, one of which is not sweetspotting and hanging down below for a bit. thats her worst option imo but its there. learn every options and the counters, its not that hard =/ you must be terrible.

i'd watch ur vids but..... eh. the rubbish you talk on these boards ive written 10's of 1000's of words on is proof enough to me that you have no idea what you are talking about. literally, if i corrected everything you said in this thread (and the other one) i would be here ALL **** DAY so its easier to let m@1funk$hun skool yo azz.

falco actually edgeguards samus very very well. better than fox, possibly as well as shiek.

ps, FH dair FF (which will also autocancels, despite popular belief) storm piles directly through samus' nair, from every angle. AND it autocancels, allowing you to follow up with any move atall.

 

[A2ZOMG]

At any rate, I'm pretty certain Mario has to work harder than Samus in this matchup. You have to approach her, and she has a LOT of ways of dealing with your approach ranging from superior tilts, Up-B OOS, and WD backwards -> Smash, all of which work REALLY WELL against Mario.

And you really really can't gimp this character very easily. Yeah there aren't too many Mario vs Samus vids, but in the ones that exist, I'm pretty certain you see Samus gimping Mario significantly more than Mario gimping Samus.

Plus, your grab threat on her is really low since you can't combo her out of D-throw, so actually doing anything to Samus while she's shielding is really difficult.

Again, Mango is the best Mario by like a landslide atm, but he isn't in control for the majority of the match against Hugs. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ujM9a1oyn5k

 

[M@1funk$hun]

you have to fireball her airdodge
fireball her bombs - 1 fireball = almost certain death

he's right
A2 I kinda wanna slap you right now

 

[A2ZOMG]

And so tell me...when do you get to fireball Samus's Bombs when she DIs well like ANY player is supposed to?

Honestly when I consider how hard Samus is to approach, and how all the arguments in Mario's favor are much less consistent, HOW is this matchup not at least 60/40 Samus?

Samus makes you approach, has the tools to counter it, and you definitely don't edgeguard or kill her more easily than she kills you. And you can't really combo her consistently thanks to Bombs and N-air.

Mango is leagues better than Hugs, yet Hugs is in control for the majority of the video I posted.