Guide The Mario Match-Up Discussion Thread

[StealthyGunnar]

that would be helpful, very.

 

[A2ZOMG]

you really like to talk about boss getting ***** by chu dat
you got a grudge against the guy? lol

No, I love Boss. But his videos against the Ice Climbers are unfortunately the only high level matches of Mario vs ICs...and he plays the matchup completely wrong.

I mean sure there are other Mario vs IC matches, but they suck even more than his matches do. So unfortunately there isn't much video evidence to go off of that demonstrates why Mario is actually really good vs the ICs.

Actually, this match is a good example of why F-smash is good in this matchup. I just wish the overall level of gameplay was better. And that the Mario grabbed more. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=toTflLt1dZo

There's an IC user in my area (he's called ICU, inb4namesearch)...maybe if I'm lucky he won't mind playing against me and I'll get a set recorded. He probably wants revenge against me for being so gay to him. =)

 

[M@1funk$hun]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Iq3mIxF4FS8&feature=related dj nintendo's mario vs uberice. couldn't find the second game

 

[A2ZOMG]

**** youtube not showing me his matches when searching for Mario vs ICs. That match was actually pretty good overall, except DJ didn't grab nearly as much as he should have, and he messed up his ledge game a bit. Aside from that, pretty good representation of the matchup.

 

[M@1funk$hun]

he was probably just playing it safe as to not get grabbed himself

 

[A2ZOMG]

Yeah, and that's pretty much the reason why he should have grabbed more in several places where he got his D-smash shielded.

 

[condemned_soul]

ok people i need some ledge game advice. whats the best way to edgeguard link, fox, marth, and falcon.

 

[M@1funk$hun]

fox is easy: just stay on the ledge and if you think he's gonna land on the stage, waveland on because Mario's waveland is awesome. from there just bthrow his a$$. you should also try to jump out and cape them. cape is better than bairs against fox

Falcon: kind of prediction based if they're good. if they try and recover high, it's better to punish the landing lag rather than bair them away because they can just UP B again, usually with almost no lost height. if they're bad, grab the ledge and stay there. cape is good if they recover low

Marth: DON'T GO DOWN THERE JEFF! no but srsly don't go out there because he'll eat you alive and leave you with no way to recover. most of the time they like to DJ to the ledge, so you can probably grab it before they can and they'll get really confused. cape is okay here, but is awkward to pull off

Link: his UP B can be kind of scary but other than that nothing special. try and do the same thing we do with samus and go down there when he air dodges, cape him, and let him fall to his death. if he pulls off his hookshot, just wavedash off the stage and bair him. against his UP B just grab the ledge, do the best to keep your invincibility and his landing lag is quite a lot, almost as much as falcons I believe, so punish that by throwing him back off. if he tries his bomb jump thing, don't even edgeguard him, just shake his hand and go back to the match

 

[condemned_soul]

wow got a answer in less then 20 mins good **** mario boards

 

[A2ZOMG]

Edgeguarding Marth is basically the same as edgeguarding Falcon. You simply want to B-air him once, and watch him have trouble making it back after that. If he recovers low, ledgedrop invincible B-air beats it and WILL gimp him. If he recovers higher, still try to B-air him. Even if you trade hits, it's in your favor, and it'll probably gimp him. The worst he can do is try to airdodge past you basically if he's recovering high.

Generally speaking, you want to occupy the edge right before he does, and then B-air him while you're invincible.

 

[M@1funk$hun]

thanks A2. as you can tell I don't have much vs marth experience

 

[StealthyGunnar]

marf. i dont like marf. he reminds me of barf, cuz that's what he is..

 

[condemned_soul]

ok now i want to know can all characters get combo'd by U-air blind

 

[StealthyGunnar]

all except jiggs i think.

 

[A2ZOMG]

It depends on your definition of combo. Fastfallers for example can't really be comboed by U-air blind unless they're at high percents and DI towards you.

Sheik, Ganon, some other big characters, and semi-floaties are the characters that are comboed best by U-air blinds.

Reeeealy floaty characters, especially Luigi and Samus don't really get "comboed" by U-air blinds, in that they can do an action before you can U-air them consecutively. Peach is on the light side though, so she can be comboed fairly well by U-air.

And Jiggs is too light to really do extended combos on in general.

 

[StealthyGunnar]

^ what he said.

i still find link harder to combo tho w/ up air.

 

[condemned_soul]

its a little harder to fight link then i thought but all you have to do is be accurate with your hits and FF with it. dont let your guard down are you can and will get combod by link

 

[M@1funk$hun]

I think what keeps us alive vs link is our speed. so if you're tech skill is off, then you're probably facked. but either way the matchup is pretty (mal)funky and I love it

 

[condemned_soul]

lol mal..... links Nair is better then marios so becareful how you approach him

 

[M@1funk$hun]

link's nair is better than most things in general lol
sh dair works best for him imo. not much he can do other than wavedash back and tilt. but thats only if you're predictable. I mean this is one of those matchups where you're either inside him and stay there, or on the other side of the stage lol

 

[A2ZOMG]

Vs Link is kinda the same matchup as vs Marth, except you actually run circles around him, and he gets ***** pretty hard by your combos (which includes a chainthrow!).

He will be annoying to approach, but he generally can't kill you all that early, and you can beat him up like a champion up close, and you can edgeguard him really well.

Oh yeah and he benefits far less from BF and YI than Marth does.

 

[condemned_soul]

who is the next person we should talk about....i vote Game and watch

anyone heard from lordydennek?

 

[A2ZOMG]

Vs G&W is kinda weird. He can be difficult to approach due to his disjoints, and he also doesn't really have trouble killing you thanks to his strong edgeguards. The main thing you have in this matchup is like vs Link but to a lesser extent, you outmaneuver him and you have stronger combos.

D-throw on G&W (I think depending on controller port priority) grounds him, so if he doesn't tech, it's a free hit of any choice. Even if he does tech, his tech is slow enough that you can punish it on reaction.

As for edgeguarding him, wait for his low recovery and either Cape him, get ready with down-angled F-smash, or ledgedrop B-air. After he takes a hit to his recovery, like Marth, he probably won't make it back.

I'd say 55/45 Mario. It's a slow matchup but your better speed and reward give you the edge. Also your F-smash is more awesome than his. Generally you want to be very careful around his F-air and make sure you don't let it get you offstage.

 

[M@1funk$hun]

you give the G&W that much credit? dayum. I'd say 65/35 mario favor. there isn't much he can do to get in on us
just bait his fair and you'll be fine
every once and a awhile shoot a fireball. if he's good he'll bucket that **** and then you're in for a world of hurt. only thing I don't like in this matchup is the edgeguarding. he's so weird to knock away

I think lordy switched mains to YL

 

[StealthyGunnar]

id agree w m@l. g&w really doesnt have anything on mario. + his shield sucks.

 

[condemned_soul]

wow im going to look into the G&W MU more. can you say................****?

 

[M@1funk$hun]

yeah srsly... plus the GNW boards are deader than Pokemon FireRed, so we're basically going on what we know of the character
or get your friend to main GNW for a week lol

 

[A2ZOMG]

I actually play G&W as my low tier main. I think he does pretty good against Mario and Doc just because his F-air is annoying and he also edgeguards Mario pretty well to make up for the fact his onstage KO moves are generally not too good. His N-air is also good for juggling you. Mario and Doc really don't have a lot of answers to G&W's F-air besides running away, but whenever G&W makes a mistake, he gets punished harder for it since you have better combos and edgeguards. Also putting the advantage in your favor and not his is that he doesn't move as fast as you do, and he can't L-cancel all of his aerials. If that wasn't the case, you would have a matchup comparably bad to like vs Falco or Marth, who win against Mario for many of the same reasons G&W doesn't get flat out dominated in this matchup.

G&W really should never Bucket at all. The move is too situational and you can punish him really hard for doing it.

Your spacing has to be really good against G&W because of his tilts and aerials. His F-tilt and U-tilt are solid walls, and his D-tilt is a **** CC option (be aware of it before getting too cheeky with Jab cancel D-smash, which as I recall combos on G&W). His F-air is kinda like a mini-Ganon's F-air, does a lot of damage and outspaces most of your moves. His B-air is a wall that outdisjoints most of your moves, and his D-air is very difficult to challenge directly from below and it has a habit of shield poking (keep in mind, your shield is also bad). Also when you're above him or offstage, you have to watch out for his N-air.

Also this character can punish you really really hard for not sweetspotting the ledge (or if applicable, edgeteching) when recovering. Aside from that his F-air is annoying to deal with, his D-tilt, F-tilt, and D-smash are also quite effective edgeguard moves.

Most of this matchup for Mario/Doc is pretty much just running away and waiting for spacing mistakes, since they have the mobility to do that, and then winning off of being able to capitalize better with more reliable combos, onstage KO setups, and G&W's easily gimped recovery (if you can gimp Marth, gimping G&W is reeeeealy reeeeeealy easy). If you try to rushdown this matchup, you're a lot more likely to lose since your forward approach doesn't compete very well against his walls, and he also has better grab range than you do.

 

[condemned_soul]

name off a couple of combos that are good against G&W. there are no players around me that play him so i need to know info about him

 

[MarioMariox2]

Bucket w/ 3 fireballs is... balls. Fthrow to Fair techchase is my suggestion.

 

[A2ZOMG]

name off a couple of combos that are good against G&W. there are no players around me that play him so i need to know info about him

D-throw -> free move. It depends on controller port priority iirc, but it might ground him. Whether or not he techs it, you pretty much have an opportunity for a free hit of choice at any percent when you D-throw him.

Jab cancels are really really good against him as long as he doesn't CC -> D-tilt you, since he's kinda floaty. So Jab cancel -> D-smash legit combos him.

U-tilt to U-air blind combos at low percents iirc work really well on him due to his light weight and somewhat floaty physics. And his aerials are a bit on the slow side, so he wouldn't easily interrupt your juggles anyway once they're started.

 

[M@1funk$hun]

Alright, I'll agree with you that G&W is a solid character.
His tilts mess you up pretty good,
but other than that his fair is quite laggy and linear.
The only reason you think it's a ganon fair is because on the first 2 frames or so that it comes out, it comes downward, stays out for a few more frames, and then goes away.
which means that you simply have to jump over it, or crouch cancel it which both work very well
I usually treat it like sex kick
he doesn't have a good answer to our crouch cancel other than his own crouch cancel, which is basically the only other thing he has on us other than the nair
so as I said, you're giving him too much credit.

 

[A2ZOMG]

His D-air is also extremely annoying to deal with keep in mind since you lack options to challenge it directly and it has pretty good knockback. His fullhop D-air is a pretty legit approach and can be used in more ways than one to potentially shield poke you either due to the massive lingering hitbox, or the landing hitbox. If he times it correctly, he is able to fullhop D-air -> waveland/double jump.

Also, I don't think it's particularly wise to CC his B-air, just because it does a ton of damage when he lands all the hits (iirc about 18%). You're better off trying to shield that move (and potentially shield DI) and either shieldgrab or WD oos depending on spacing.

 

[M@1funk$hun]

yeah I could see the shieldgrab option just because he has a lot of lag on his stuff
which of his moves are l-cancelable? any of them or just some?

 

[A2ZOMG]

F-air and D-air.

F-Air
Land lag: 25
L-canceled: 12

D-Air
Land lag: 20
L-canceled: 10

B-Air
Land lag: 18

U-Air
Land lag: 18

N-Air
Land lag: 15

 

[M@1funk$hun]

sweeeeeeeeeet thanks man
where'd you get the info?

 

[condemned_soul]

idc how he got it im just happy its here

 

[A2ZOMG]

http://www.angelfire.com/games5/superdoodleman/frames.html
http://www.angelfire.com/games5/superdoodleman/Game_and_Watch_frames_11.6.05.txt

Also in alphameric's guide to using G&W.

 

[condemned_soul]

nice A2Z do you have anyone videos of yourself that can watch?

so what is the ratio for mario vs G&W

 

[A2ZOMG]

Meh, I haven't uploaded any videos of my Melee G&W.

I say the matchup is 55/45 Mario from personal experience.