The Lucas Omelets Chatroom

[prOAPC]

you all get the idea, space vs Marth, and Lucas is a space machine! What's the problem?

 

[Levitas]

The problem is that marth is more of a spacing machine.

 

[prOAPC]

that was melee marth
marth has some trouble vs wavebouncing
i'll talk you later, gtg

 

[ToxiCrow]

toxcrow's spanish is funny
why do most people say that Marth is Lucas' worst match up?

lol hey man i'm dominican; we've got the worst type of spanish.
and most people say that marth is lucas' worst match up because he is. he beats up when u get in close, his approach is better, he gimps u (his fair stops PKT), his choke grab (though it's not infinite) gets u at high percentages, he's faster, better looking, people like him more, cooler, manlier; he's pretty much a better character than lucas is.

I'm half Mexican and I don't understand any Spanish *cries*

idk y but i had the feeling u were. . .

this is officially the greatest thread ever.

amen dear brother

Speaking of Sonic I got "Can you feel the sunshine" from Sonic R stuck in my head.*

is that the one that goes "you know u got to surviiiiiive" ?

 

[lil cj]

The Lucas boards are finally fun again

 

[Neon Ness]

is that the one that goes "you know u got to surviiiiiive" ?

No, that's Livin' in the City. In fact, I posted a link to it a few posts back. That song is so good...

I laughed when you said Marth was better looking and people like him more. But, I'm surprised no one has yet called out Game & Watch as being Lucas' worst matchup. He's pretty much the only black person I really don't like.

 

[ToxiCrow]

But, I'm surprised no one has yet called out Game & Watch as being Lucas' worst matchup. He's pretty much the only black person I really don't like.

ok, thats my new sig lol
G+W is bad too, but i hav more experience against him than i do marth; so it's not so bad when i fight one.
i was at a tourney awhile ago and the kid that i was fighting against (he beat me; this is b4 i was good cuz i didnt no how to tech or anything good like that) was using G+W. i kept getting frustrated bcuz he kept downthrow->downsmash. he was telling me "you gotta tech" and i finally managed to tech the downthrow. then he said "there you go!"
just thought i'd share.
but G+W is also everything that Lucas isnt. plus, his Bucket Braking makes him even more of a pain. i hate to say this, but upsmash might be a good idea if u can get it in.

EDIT: anyone else going to the PK GarageBand concert this weekend??

 

[ZMan]

idk y but i had the feeling u were. . .

Mexican? You kind of racist holmes? I'll ****ing cut you eh.

[/old school essay mode]

 

[Neon Ness]

True, up smash would be good against Game and Watch... the ones I fight use Down Air a lot, so it's all about punshing in that situation. Down Throw Down Smash is less of a problem for me lately... But recovering is tough, because they just run up and Bucket your PK Thunder... Argh. Also, it's cool and sorta funny that your opponent was actually helping you out during the match.

 

[ToxiCrow]

Mexican? You kind of racist holmes? I'll ****ing cut you eh.

[/old school essay mode]

lol i guess it's a hispanic thing; i know who's hispanic just by reading there posts.
and work on ur accent pablo

True, up smash would be good against Game and Watch... the ones I fight use Down Air a lot, so it's all about punshing in that situation. Down Throw Down Smash is less of a problem for me lately... But recovering is tough, because they just run up and Bucket your PK Thunder... Argh. Also, it's cool and sorta funny that your opponent was actually helping you out during the match.

yeah i played a kid that used downair->either downtilt or f-tilt frequently and he just become predictible. i'd shield and grab just b4 he touched the ground and then take it from there.
oh and the kid that helped me, i guess he just felt sorry. it was my 1st time playing against really good people. i'll admit, my 1st tourney was a scrub tourney. only about 5 or 6 people could've actually been considered good.

 

[lil cj]

G&W is very difficult and Lucas' worst match up and everything...
but there are ways to beat him...jus play a defensive Lucas
As for avoiding him using his bucket against PKT2
Theres always zap jump, magnet pull, and rope snake
Gotta love Lucas....the recovery kid!

 

[livan]

.....a hi and well is good to read this messages and thanks , guys you are cool !!
n_n

.....a hola y bueno es bueno leer estos mensajes y gracias , chicos ustedes son geniales
n_n

 

[ChaosTheoryX]

you all get the idea, space vs Marth, and Lucas is a space machine! What's the problem?

did he just say lucas is a spacing machine while talking about the lucas-marth match up??? o_O

lawl for our super awesome bi-lingual thread XD

 

[prOAPC]

did he just say lucas is a spacing machine while talking about the lucas-marth match up??? o_O

yes, i did, for me Lucas is really good at spacing, with his ftilt and pk fire

G&W is very difficult and Lucas' worst match up and everything...
but there are ways to beat him...

can someone say the same thing about Marth? 'Cause i can

 

[Cheeri-Oats]

Some of you need to play good Marths.

 

[lil cj]

Ive had mixed reviews with Marth...
sumtimes I win almost 3 stocking and they cant touch me...and the Marth is still good
But for some Marths' I lose terribly...they cancel out my nairs, edge guard me constantly with fairs, and somehow keep hitting me with uair while I try to dair...i thought dair had more priority??

 

[~Pink Fresh~]

Some of you need to play good Marths.

QFT
after playing NEO's marth i always will say i hate the marth-lucas matchup. it's just sooo f*****g stupid. you can't do anything =[

 

[ToxiCrow]

did he just say lucas is a spacing machine while talking about the lucas-marth match up??? o_O

lawl for our super awesome bi-lingual thread XD

Some of you need to play good Marths.

QFT.
anyone who doesnt think marth isnt a bad match up for lucas hasnt played a good marth yet. marth ***** lucas

 

[livan]

....well i think both are too good just need to know how to use it
n_n

 

[prOAPC]

lol, i play good Marths, more than any Lucas; i have to fight better MK, and the weakest ones, give more problems than experienced Marths, but that's not the point.
whay i say is that Lucas has tools to give Marth some problems, i know Marth has the adv by far, but he's not an impossible match up, just learn how to fight him (maybe you have to change your playstyle) and trust in your main

 

[ToxiCrow]

well, we're not saying it's impossible. we're saying that marth has the advantage over lucas and that anyone who doesnt think so hasnt played a good marth.
obviously the person with more skill is going to win, but we're talking about potential. i;ve beaten marth with lucas b4, but its because i was better than the person i was playing against, not because lucas is better.

 

[Noraa]

If your a lucas main and you play Neo or Kadaj from the eastcoast, it will make you wanna pick up some one else lol.
As for mk i use yoshi =] as my counter.

 

[prOAPC]

is there a vid of a Lucas vs Neo?

 

[Cheeri-Oats]

lol, i play good Marths, more than any Lucas

Havok, mikeHaze, BoA, BarDulL are all in my area and play at around a DSF level with Marth. Hell DSF used to main Marth. And I've played 3 of them, and got a chance to watch 1 of them (BarDulL) in person.

It's not about trusting in your main or changing your style. Lucas just does not have the tools to compete. Dair does not out-prioritize Uair, nothing can outspace a fair besides PKFire. PKFire can be perfect shielded or dodged if they predict it, and punish you on the recovery lag of it. If they're super beasts they'll chase you when you're PKthundering offstage, and hit you when you're being pulled up by the rope snake. On the ground their d-smash as fast as all of your tilts; they can mindgame you into a grab and even if you're good at breaking out, all they have to do is downsmash. You can't beat them in the air; you can't do anything on the ground. Your only really option is taking advantage of their poor recovery, but I'm not very good at that (see: Edge Hogging) so I'll get back to you on whether it works.

But yeah. To see you've play more good Marths than any Lucas is quite ignorant.

And I feel sorry for anyone that has to play Neo. I hear he's like BoA but more patient.

 

[prOAPC]

when i said "change playstyle" i meant exactly what you said. If you use nair, you get grabbed, if you dair, you'll eat an usmash or uair. It is true that if he shield or dodge the PK Fire, he'll punish you, but he can't do too much vs wavebouncing pk fire. Marth's dsmash is his fastest smash, but the laggiest afterwards, so i don't see why you're comparing it to Lucas' ftilt.

 

[Cheeri-Oats]

I said "as fast as all your tilts." I'm not sure about frames. And don't get me start on Marths breaking a jab combo with Up-B. You can't even jab-cancel to shield because Up-B is super fast. Yeah, and I doubt Wavebouncing will do much since it's a defensive option. And good luck tricking him once it becomes predictable. Unless you care to describe it in great detail.

 

[Natch]

I said "as fast as all your tilts." I'm not sure about frames. And don't get me start on Marths breaking a jab combo with Up-B. You can't even jab-cancel to shield because Up-B is super fast. Yeah, and I doubt Wavebouncing will do much since it's a defensive option. And good luck tricking him once it becomes predictable. Unless you care to describe it in great detail.

Actually, I've found that Wavebounced PK Fires can do something against Marth. It helps you out-space him by staying out of punishing range. A Wavebounced PK Fire allows you to artificially increase it's range by leaving you farther away from the opponent, yet still allowing you to hit him. Be smart, and it's a 100% safe option, even if powershielded.

Outside of that, SH'd Autocancelled Nairs at close range are your best bet. I'm serious, spam that crap. It's one of the safest moves on block in the game. Just keep weaving around with Lucas' excellent horizontal air speed.

Your last move to abuse here: Ftilt. Abuse the IASA frames of Ftilt, it becomes safe on block. Ftilt is frame 6, and all shields take a minimum of 6 frames to drop, with actions being input on frame 7. IASA frames means 1 Ftilt every 6 frames. Just stay out of his grab range when using Ftilt-this can be done by spacing yourself after a SH'd Autocancelled Nair. The only way to hit Lucas at this point is if Marth uses Up+B, and even then, I'm not too sure if a perfectly spaced Ftilt leaves you in the range of Up+B.


I've not played against Marth's that Up+B all that much, barring Mike HAZE's(and even then, I haven't had much experience with his Marth), but this should work. There's some theorycrafting here, but this stuff should work.


Hey, Marceux, you going to Race's tourney this Saturday?

 

[Cheeri-Oats]

Yes I am. And if you're going I'll see you there.

 

[Natch]

Yes I am. And if you're going I'll see you there.

Cool. Hey, do you B-Stick?
In any case, the best of those 3 things would probably be to Wavebounce your PK Fires. It leaves you unpunishable in my experience. And I've been B-Sticking since like, May. In fact, how 'bout we just meet up at the tourney and play friendlies against Mike HAZE, BoA, etc. I'm not planning to use Lucas in tournament, and I'm not as good as you, but our differing play styles mean that we might be able to pick up something from each other.

 

[ToxiCrow]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eTosQerWBzU

^^^^^if we hav the same mental attitude, we'll place better in tourneys

 

[Cheeri-Oats]

Random, Toxicrow, random.

And I use to B-Stick but stopped in June/July. That **** ruins your playstyle.

 

[Noraa]

LOL that **** is hillarious. so funny

 

[Natch]

Random, Toxicrow, random.

And I use to B-Stick but stopped in June/July. That **** ruins your playstyle.

It didn't mess up mine. I can go to and from B-Sticking with ease. In any case, manually B-Sticking is your best bet then. Learning more ATs never hurts, right?

 

[Neon Ness]

Natch!? Qu'est-ce que to fais ici!? Also, your signature bothers me. Hubris?

Also, what the heck was with that video, ToxiCrow!?

 

[Cheeri-Oats]

Hahahaha. Natch, you're doing it again. I know how to "manually" B-Stick and I'm pretty sure I know the ATs.

Here's how the scenario is playing in my head and from what I've seen in my tourney matches against Havok:

You're retreating with PKFire. Distancing yourself with a wavebounced PKFire. You're further from where you shot your PKFire, and the Marth, shielded/dodged/foresaw and jumped over the attack. It may have slowed him down a little, but he was still able to close enough distance so that it forces you into retreating again or flying into him. Lucas has no safe way to approach Marth so you wavebounce a PKFire and repeat the process. Final Destination is only so long, and Battlefield and Smashville are shorter. With 2-4 Wavebounced PKFires, you've already reached the edge and there is nowhere else to go. And for the times when he perfect shields a PKFire, as consistently as BoA or Havok do, you're in for a rude awakening because there is no 2nd hitbox on the PKFire to slow down their approach, and since they can over-B out of a dash and push you further off the edge, your Lucas is a worse position and you can't do squat.

Of course, that was all theorycraft, and what you said earlier was theorycraft. Tons of little variables affect the game, in-game. And neutral works wonders, you're right. But you have to be on the Marth. A good Marth does not want you on him or near him. He wants to use the reach of the sword to keep you at a distance and running. And an even better Marth will stop PKFires with fairs and wait for you to retreat to do it again.

The best you could absolutely hope for again is to get Marth off stage and take advantage of the horrible recovery. Good stages for this are Lylat, Jungle Japes, and Brinstar or maybe even Luigi's. With Japes you force an aerial approach out of the Marth if you successfully camp a platform. On Brinstar, break the level in two, and keep Marth on one side. Lylat just wrecks most recoveries easy, and you can use the platforms to stay high and above Marth and hopefully space with well-timed thundersliding or even rogue PKT1. Luigi's is good for the pillars and I've beaten Havok on there, because it also forces a ground approach where Lucas is a little better matched, not to mention there are some tricks about Luigi's Mansion I'd like to keep private.

Again, it's all theorycrafting and it could all change in-game, but still, the match-up does look bleak and I wouldn't know what to do.

 

[Natch]

Hahahaha. Natch, you're doing it again. I know how to "manually" B-Stick and I'm pretty sure I know the ATs.

Here's how the scenario is playing in my head and from what I've seen in my tourney matches against Havok:

You're retreating with PKFire. Distancing yourself with a wavebounced PKFire. You're further from where you shot your PKFire, and the Marth, shielded/dodged/foresaw and jumped over the attack. It may have slowed him down a little, but he was still able to close enough distance so that it forces you into retreating again or flying into him. Lucas has no safe way to approach Marth so you wavebounce a PKFire and repeat the process. Final Destination is only so long, and Battlefield and Smashville are shorter. With 2-4 Wavebounced PKFires, you've already reached the edge and there is nowhere else to go. And for the times when he perfect shields a PKFire, as consistently as BoA or Havok do, you're in for a rude awakening because there is no 2nd hitbox on the PKFire to slow down their approach, and since they can over-B out of a dash and push you further off the edge, your Lucas is a worse position and you can't do squat.

Of course, that was all theorycraft, and what you said earlier was theorycraft. Tons of little variables affect the game, in-game. And neutral works wonders, you're right. But you have to be on the Marth. A good Marth does not want you on him or near him. He wants to use the reach of the sword to keep you at a distance and running. And an even better Marth will stop PKFires with fairs and wait for you to retreat to do it again.

The best you could absolutely hope for again is to get Marth off stage and take advantage of the horrible recovery. Good stages for this are Lylat, Jungle Japes, and Brinstar or maybe even Luigi's. With Japes you force an aerial approach out of the Marth if you successfully camp a platform. On Brinstar, break the level in two, and keep Marth on one side. Lylat just wrecks most recoveries easy, and you can use the platforms to stay high and above Marth and hopefully space with well-timed thundersliding or even rogue PKT1. Luigi's is good for the pillars and I've beaten Havok on there, because it also forces a ground approach where Lucas is a little better matched, not to mention there are some tricks about Luigi's Mansion I'd like to keep private.

Again, it's all theorycrafting and it could all change in-game, but still, the match-up does look bleak and I wouldn't know what to do.

I will agree with you there; the Marth matchup is virtually impossible for Lucas. I've played it over and over again-good stage counterpicking is your best bet. Even then, it'd still be better to just choose a different character all together.

How about I meet up with you the tournament, and we can watch each other friendly some of those Marths.

Anyways, he may shield PK Fire _almost_ every single time, but it's all you can do. Make him jump through the same series of hoops every time he wants to approach. Using PK Fire, you can force him to approach on your terms. Run at him, do a Wavebounced PK Fire. Once they adapt, condition him to believe you will always do a SH'd WB'd PK Fire when you run at him. You probably know this, but is possible to fire off a WB'd PK Fire from a distance where you could finish your short hop with an aerial and expect it hit.

 

[prOAPC]

i'd call it a hard match up, but not impossible
make sure to record those friendlies

 

[Noraa]

The Next M2k?
April came to fast

 

[Levitas]

I will agree with you there; the Marth matchup is virtually impossible for Lucas. I've played it over and over again-good stage counterpicking is your best bet. Even then, it'd still be better to just choose a different character all together.

How about I meet up with you the tournament, and we can watch each other friendly some of those Marths.

Anyways, he may shield PK Fire _almost_ every single time, but it's all you can do. Make him jump through the same series of hoops every time he wants to approach. Using PK Fire, you can force him to approach on your terms. Run at him, do a Wavebounced PK Fire. Once they adapt, condition him to believe you will always do a SH'd WB'd PK Fire when you run at him. You probably know this, but is possible to fire off a WB'd PK Fire from a distance where you could finish your short hop with an aerial and expect it hit.

Been doing that since april. It's a LOT less effective against people who've seen it before.

If you want to wreck someone who hasn't played lucas (or suck) really efficiently, tap their shield with nairs and lead into ftilts, jabs, and other nairs. PK fire makes a long game, and that means they can adapt. Therefore, it's an endgame or game 3 strat and only against people who don't do well against it.

Lucas is harder for me to win with than getting anywhere in touhou lunatic.

 

[ToxiCrow]

Random, Toxicrow, random.

And I use to B-Stick but stopped in June/July. That **** ruins your playstyle.

*sigh*
i went bstick my 1st tourney. guess to which character i lost to??

Natch!? Qu'est-ce que to fais ici!? Also, your signature bothers me. Hubris?

Also, what the heck was with that video, ToxiCrow!?

1st, dear brother, i want to commend u on using a language other than english. it really adds depth to this thread and instead of calling this the "bi-" lingual, i'll change it to "multi-language".
2nd- that video is motivation. if we display that same attitude, then we're bound to make some improvements.

Finally, i'm going to make a thread dedicated to fighting marth and i'll make it later on; maybe even 2morro.
Oats and Natch: you both made some intelligent comments and they made alot of sense (from what i read atleast; i dont want to read it all). when i make the Marth thread please contribute.

P.S- for you noobs who didnt see the video i posted on at the bottom of page 10, i suggest u take a look at it this instant. that is, if u want to get better