The Lucas Boards' QnA Thread

[Jamwa]

seriously luco agaisnt zelda all you do is retreating PKF and zelda cant do anything.
she has NO approach options at all since Dins is absorbable for like 9999%

 

[FightAdamantEevee]

Omg Zelda's the only Lucas matchup that I think is like +3, just run away pal :D

But yeah, Lucas vs Zelda online is harder definately. I guess it's harder for both characters, since Lucas' PK Fire and Nair are dumb online and Zelda's 20 smashes that last 100 minutes each and sometimes not absorbable Din's are dumb

But yeah as Jamwa was saying, Zelda literally has no approach options. She mainly relies on Din's to kinda close in on people or zone them out. We kinda rely on Magnet against easy healz. So Zelda has to approach. And with what? Like... dash attack, roll, maybe the occasional running Up smash. It's just when you approach her or when you stay near her for too long that'll bring up problems.

Also, the only time Din's is ever effective is if you try to Jump to absorb it offstage, or if you're trying to recover with PKT because you lost your double jump. If you absorb it, of course you fall down more because of the lag at the end of Magnet. If you're trying to PKT, Zelda can literally din's you like 4-5 times.

 

[Luco]

Yeah, well the thing was, this guy was perfect with his timing online: He's practiced on it a lot, so I think that's why it was so hard. Also in retrospect, PK fire did work and I would have used Nair more if she didn't have a habit of being so precise with her aerials that the lag hurt... if you get what i mean.

 

[2nd2none]

Can Lucas grab out of shield safely? What counts as safe oos?

 

[Luco]

Can Lucas grab out of shield safely? What counts as safe oos?

Depending on the attack he can, like anyone else. If MK glide attacks too high you can punish really well with grab (not if he does it mid-height because he can roll away like, a frame or two before the grab hitbox is there... it sucks )

Watch for some characters though. Our grab has long range but an Ike Fsmash that is normal shielded will push you back so far your grab will generally miss. Depending on where you are, the same happens for smashes around Lucas' strength (If I shield a fellow Lucas' Fsmash, I usually can't grab him unless I was in serious close range).

 

[2nd2none]

Hm, thanks luco. Was just wondering since I don't see many Lucas mains using his grab. People seem to favor SH Nair or FH Dair OoS. His shield grab and pivot grab seem quite useful (though I'm not very good at it myself...). And his Bthrow and Dthrow are nice clutch options when I need to kill at high-ish percentages.

I was thinking of picking up Lucas as a secondary just because he's so fun to play, but he does feel noticeably weaker than Marth (my current main)--so I'm rather uncertain right now. My friends that I play with on a constant basis main Olimar, ROB, Tink, Falco, and DDK. I have a lot of trouble approaching them compared to when I'm using Marth. Lucas seems to play much better defensively but I don't have that option against characters that have better projectiles... which pretty much all my friends do, especially Olimar. I hate Olimar even if I'm playing Marth or Lucas. His ability to wall + tack on damage + kill frustratingly early with grab/smashes is so OP.

 

[Jamwa]

Lucas does very well against Toon Link IMO.
very easy to approach that character with your aerial mobility.

Diddy is also very easy to approach for me.

back to the grab though, it is often used in anticipation of a move rather than OoS. for example, if someone is approaching with an aerial/dash grab/attack then you would pivot grab before having to shield.

You can also grab a few moves OoS, and it is a better punish than nair as b/u/fthrow do 10% and you jab for 3%, but only a few certain moves, so correctly spaced moves can not be grabbed (Like wolf's bair), hence most "pros" dont use it as they dont have the chance to.

 

[Luco]

Hm, thanks luco. Was just wondering since I don't see many Lucas mains using his grab. People seem to favor SH Nair or FH Dair OoS. His shield grab and pivot grab seem quite useful (though I'm not very good at it myself...). And his Bthrow and Dthrow are nice clutch options when I need to kill at high-ish percentages.

I was thinking of picking up Lucas as a secondary just because he's so fun to play, but he does feel noticeably weaker than Marth (my current main)--so I'm rather uncertain right now. My friends that I play with on a constant basis main Olimar, ROB, Tink, Falco, and DDK. I have a lot of trouble approaching them compared to when I'm using Marth. Lucas seems to play much better defensively but I don't have that option against characters that have better projectiles... which pretty much all my friends do, especially Olimar. I hate Olimar even if I'm playing Marth or Lucas. His ability to wall + tack on damage + kill frustratingly early with grab/smashes is so OP.

Olimar has a weak spot diagonally above him. He can use upB but it has issues.

The Lucas - oli MU is interesting, one that i've played quite a bit against my brother. It ends up being a pivot grab fest and you generally want to be in control of the air. Lucas destroys Olimar in the air. He also hurts him so much offstage. The issue is getting him there. Olimar clearly wins the ground game by such a margin that the MU is in his favour. I personally feel as though he should be a -1 rather than a -2 because once he's out of his comfort zone (the ground) he becomes seriously pressured by us but top Olimars could disagree ('cept Logic mwahahahaha.... ) and their opinions would be valid. I'm not that fantastic a player and I haven't even versed Splice so I can only use my somewhat limited experience.

Toon Link is pretty ok - he's a lot easier for my Ness but that was before I started incorporating some of Jamwa's playstyle into my own. :o

Diddy is a character you genuinely need to 'learn'. Any character with items is but Diddy is especially so because his items, unlike Peach or ROB will probably actually stay out long enough for you to have the opportunity to use them. Learn what Lucas/Ness can do with items and chains with items and this MU becomes so much better. From memory, with Lucas in the air above diddy, chucking the banana downwards then using Nair ----> jab at a certain height so that the Nair is lagless is actually really effective, for starters.

 

[2nd2none]

I'm just bad in general against projectile spammers and getting in, especially since I'm still unfamiliar with Lucas. I still can't even do most of the ATs and I'm lazy to learn to c bounce. Thanks for the help though.

I'm actually thinking of picking up Diddy just to get better with items... But lazy to learn Diddy's item ATs. Diddy is a strange character like that. He kind of forces you to be proficient at items.

 

[Luco]

I'll refer you to a crew battle I was in recently - I actually get somewhat destroyed in it but that's not the point - my point is that during that first stock, I use items to come back and they help me take his stock. I actually thought that part of the match went really well.

Then I went back to being destroyed.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GoMtw3XtcNs&list=UUDRkt_GFUrl7KTBwRw1Ky1g&index=2&t=10m15s

 

[Jellyfishn]

Lucas does very well against Toon Link IMO.
very easy to approach that character with your aerial mobility.

I just finished a tourney today playing Lucas and ended up losing to a Toon Link and taking third. I actually did pretty decent(all matches ended up on the last stock with both of us at high percents), but it was extremely hard. All the matches almost went to time before I died. What is the best kill move for killing Toon Link? I couldn't bait anything since he was running away and spamming, and I would avoid most of the spam and get to him, but could never get any kill moves off. I think almost all of the kills ended up being fair kills.

Wish I had the matches to upload, but I would appreciate any help anyway! Thanks!

 

[Luco]

I just finished a tourney today playing Lucas and ended up losing to a Toon Link and taking third. I actually did pretty decent(all matches ended up on the last stock with both of us at high percents), but it was extremely hard. All the matches almost went to time before I died. What is the best kill move for killing Toon Link? I couldn't bait anything since he was running away and spamming, and I would avoid most of the spam and get to him, but could never get any kill moves off. I think almost all of the kills ended up being fair kills.

Wish I had the matches to upload, but I would appreciate any help anyway! Thanks!

Not bad! Third sounds fantastic!

Lucas' Ftilt kills surprisingly early. Sweet-spotted on a mid weight, I think it kills around 160-180 depending on where you are but I could be wrong, and that's somewhat easy to hit with. Otherwise Uair is a fine option, especially as a mix-up off-stage so that Tink won't try to Dair offstage (because he almost never should unless it's somehow guaranteed). I also suggest going for the Dtilt lock set-up if you can. It works on most characters between 80-90% (when you begin to Dair them, that way they have around 100-110% after the last hit of Dair), though it sometimes works at 70% on a select few (I think Falco might be one of these characters but i'm not sure. Tink I think is 80 but again i'm not entirely sure). From there it's pretty easy.

Otherwise Usmash can be a good mix-up in rare situations in case you're not using it at all (learnt this from Jamwa) and Tink can be edge-guarded with Fair, Bair, Dair, etc. Lucas happens to be a fantastic character in regards to pressuring people on the ledge, so go for him offstage if you can.

I hope this helps! Now go post your placing in the Lucas tournament thread!

 

[Jamwa]

I just finished a tourney today playing Lucas and ended up losing to a Toon Link and taking third. I actually did pretty decent(all matches ended up on the last stock with both of us at high percents), but it was extremely hard. All the matches almost went to time before I died. What is the best kill move for killing Toon Link? I couldn't bait anything since he was running away and spamming, and I would avoid most of the spam and get to him, but could never get any kill moves off. I think almost all of the kills ended up being fair kills.

Wish I had the matches to upload, but I would appreciate any help anyway! Thanks!

Lucas has so many kill moves, and fair is probably my go-to for this MU.
you can try dtilt locks from dair, or uair.
its not often that you're in the position to fsmash as much as other MU's, but usmashing if the Tink jump (as a hard read) is really good for an early kill.
Dgrab is also the other one that comes around most often.

It's awkward, what you want to do is just build up percent on the Toon link, and then once you get a stock off him because he is such high percent that your fair/uair kills, you camp him to get more %.
Make sure you dont get greedy for the kill, otherwise you will take lots of % from his camping. Just get used to putting a character up to ~160% and then killing with fair/uair.

 

[Lukingordex]

Also, the only time Din's is ever effective is if you try to Jump to absorb it offstage, or if you're trying to recover with PKT because you lost your double jump. If you absorb it, of course you fall down more because of the lag at the end of Magnet. If you're trying to PKT, Zelda can literally din's you like 4-5 times.

isn`t 4-5 too much?

I can`t see that happening unless Lucas is located really close to the end of stage below...

Plus i believe only 1 is enough to put Lucas on a decent height to use magnet safety and PK thunder quickly after this,imo.

If you`re talking about wi-fi,you`re probably right though.

 

[Jamwa]

FAE's probably just surmising what can happen in a bad position, 4-5 is realistic in those cases

 

[Luco]

FAE's probably just surmising what can happen in a bad position, 4-5 is realistic in those cases

Mmm, agreed, and there are also times when you freak out a bit and make bad decisions. We have a good recovery no doubt but still, being offstage without a second jump ain't much fun.

 

[FightAdamantEevee]

isn`t 4-5 too much?

I can`t see that happening unless Lucas is located really close to the end of stage below...

Plus i believe only 1 is enough to put Lucas on a decent height to use magnet safety and PK thunder quickly after this,imo.

If you`re talking about wi-fi,you`re probably right though.

No, I'm not talking about wifi lol. If Zelda Din's Fires you when you don't have a double jump and have to use PKT to recover, then she can just keep doing it until you get popped up high enough to be able to move closer to the ledge and zair, or until her Din's cancels out your PKT and you die. Considering the fact that Din's knocks you back and not very high, there's not really much you can do except take damage and wait. And did you mean Magnet safely as in absorb the Din's? Because like I said, that's just working against you since you can't Magnet Cancel in the air.

 

[Lukingordex]

or until her Din's cancels out your PKT and you die.

Oh yeah you`re right,I forgot about this part.

But I still believe 4-5 it`s too much,well who cares,it`s just Zelda,we start rapping her again when we finally recover anyway.
>3

 

[Tesh]

if you were that far off stage that double jump+zair didnt reach the ledge, how is your percent now high enough for din's to safe you after 1 or 2 hits?

i mean, what could possibly put you that low and far off the stage at like under 30%

 

[Jamwa]

if you were that far off stage that double jump+zair didnt reach the ledge, how is your percent now high enough for din's to safe you after 1 or 2 hits?

i mean, what could possibly put you that low and far off the stage at like under 30%

Dsmash, Dair, getting edge guarded and losing your DJ, technical error, bad DI
DJ+zair isn't always safe either, lucas' head pops up above the ledge when he tethers in and he is really easy to hit when tethering up. in this situation, you will be without a dj and pretty low, with zelda throwing uncharged din's at you

so yeah you could get hit easily 4-5 times if you started at 50%, as the din's doesn't have to be fully charged with max knockback to hit lucas.
you'd probably drop further considering the amount of time it takes characters to cancel hitstun with Special moves when compared to an airdodge or an aerial.

 

[Luco]

I think what he means FAE is how when you get hit by most moves, then magnet as soon as you can (without an aerial from memory), you usually get a slight boost from the momentum?

Could be wrong...?

 

[FightAdamantEevee]

Dsmash, Dair, getting edge guarded and losing your DJ, technical error, bad DI
DJ+zair isn't always safe either, lucas' head pops up above the ledge when he tethers in and he is really easy to hit when tethering up. in this situation, you will be without a dj and pretty low, with zelda throwing uncharged din's at you

so yeah you could get hit easily 4-5 times if you started at 50%, as the din's doesn't have to be fully charged with max knockback to hit lucas.
you'd probably drop further considering the amount of time it takes characters to cancel hitstun with Special moves when compared to an airdodge or an aerial.

All of this. I guess I did overexaggerate with 4-5, but 3-4 or at 3 at the least is bound to happen if you're caught in that situation. And with the magnet thing, I meant it's better to just not use to it try to eat her din's so you can PKT, because you're gonna be stuck in Magnet endlag, fall lower, and Zelda can throw another din's at you before the PKT hits you

 

[Jamwa]

http://smashboards.com/threads/confirmation-floating-ball-of-doom-spotted-frame-data.255033/
Is everything in that thread correct? Just checking because I don't want to be fooled by incorrect frame data. 5 frames of invincibility on Usmash surprised me..

 

[Lukingordex]

http://smashboards.com/threads/confirmation-floating-ball-of-doom-spotted-frame-data.255033/
Is everything in that thread correct? Just checking because I don't want to be fooled by incorrect frame data. 5 frames of invincibility on Usmash surprised me..

what...

I didn't even knew that Lucas' Fsmash has invincibility frames...

 

[Luco]

what...

I didn't even knew that Lucas' Fsmash has invincibility frames...

Wouldn't be surprised, i'm sure it moves him a bit though. When he's charging up Fsmash, an arrow that doesn't bend from Pit usually doesn't hit him. Or maybe it's as he's swinging the stick?

 

[Tikao]

Lucas' is invincible in the the first 5 frames of his usmash
his fsmash got no invincible frames (and the thread says that too)
but the IASA of Lucas' fsmash should be at frame 47 (not 48) and the hotbox stays out for frame 14-22 (not 14-17), so not everthing seems correct

but the program i use to view the original lucas (Smash Attacks) can't view the animations
this is a problem for any move which uses no IASA (so you have to wait the entire animation to interrupt) or smashes

smashes have 3 sub-actions, which are important for this
example (Lucas' fsmash)
AttackS4S (the actual fsmash)
AttackS4Start (the beginning of the fsmash)
AttackS4Hold (when you charge the fsmash, obviously for framedata, if you charge it like 20 frames, it comes out 20 frames later)

so i can't view the duration of the AttackS4Start, but this is important for the actual fsmash
the AttackS4S says the fsmash hitboxes starts at frame 6 ... but this is after the AttackS4Start animation (which are 8frames, if the thread is right) so you have to ad 8 to every framedata in here
but thats the problem, i can't look that up, thats why i wrote everything
it could be 7 frames, so the IASA of 47 would be right, but then everything other of that fsmash would be wrong
but what i can say is, that the hitbox is terminated 9 frames after it got released , not 4

but it seems like not everything in this thread is correct

 

[Luco]

Lucas' is invincible in the the first 5 frames of his usmash
his fsmash got no invincible frames (and the thread says that too)
but the IASA of Lucas' fsmash should be at frame 47 (not 48) and the hotbox stays out for frame 14-22 (not 14-17), so not everthing seems correct

but the program i use to view the original lucas (Smash Attacks) can't view the animations
this is a problem for any move which uses no IASA (so you have to wait the entire animation to interrupt) or smashes

smashes have 3 sub-actions, which are important for this
example (Lucas' fsmash)
AttackS4S (the actual fsmash)
AttackS4Start (the beginning of the fsmash)
AttackS4Hold (when you charge the fsmash, obviously for framedata, if you charge it like 20 frames, it comes out 20 frames later)

so i can't view the duration of the AttackS4Start, but this is important for the actual fsmash
the AttackS4S says the fsmash hitboxes starts at frame 6 ... but this is after the AttackS4Start animation (which are 8frames, if the thread is right) so you have to ad 8 to every framedata in here
but thats the problem, i can't look that up, thats why i wrote everything
it could be 7 frames, so the IASA of 47 would be right, but then everything other of that fsmash would be wrong
but what i can say is, that the hitbox is terminated 9 frames after it got released , not 4

but it seems like not everything in this thread is correct

Tikao with the technical data. :D

 

[Jellyfishn]

Quick question. I have been working on some tech skill and was wondering, is there a simple way to get Dustersliding down? I can always get it after using my three zairs on the ledge, but have a little trouble getting it on the first time. (I play a certain Lucario player a lot, and would love to usmash him after forcing him to up-b to the ledge)

Also before dustersliding, its better to press away from the ledge and double jump, rather than fall down and double jump, right?

 

[Jamwa]

Quick question. I have been working on some tech skill and was wondering, is there a simple way to get Dustersliding down? I can always get it after using my three zairs on the ledge, but have a little trouble getting it on the first time. (I play a certain Lucario player a lot, and would love to usmash him after forcing him to up-b to the ledge)

Also before dustersliding, its better to press away from the ledge and double jump, rather than fall down and double jump, right?

As soon as you drop down, jump.
As soon as you jump, tether.
Should work, it has to be as quick as you can do it.
If you jump over, you're pressing tether too late.
If you tether the ledge, you're jumping too late.

(this is more what i "feel". there's no real frame data to show when to do it)

 

[Luco]

Yeah i'm bad at dustersliding and never got much use out of it myself except for a cool party trick (except for one time but...) so I can't help ya there. :'/

 

[pikmin.org]

While I know that it does work, can someone tell me WHY holding up against Lucas' D-Air helps to get out of it? Like, since when does holding 180 degrees from the direction a move sends you do anything at all?

 

[Jamwa]

While I know that it does work, can someone tell me WHY holding up against Lucas' D-Air helps to get out of it? Like, since when does holding 180 degrees from the direction a move sends you do anything at all?

It's not a meteor smash or a spike, its a semi-spike.

 

[pikmin.org]

What exactly is a 'semi-spike' in this context? Just a weak spike? I still don't get why holding up does anything.

 

[Jamwa]

What exactly is a 'semi-spike' in this context? Just a weak spike? I still don't get why holding up does anything.

Semi spike isnt strong so you can di easily, hence up will send you in a different direction. this is just a basic di concept. holding a direction will turn the original knockback direction towards the direction you are holding

 

[pikmin.org]

Oh, I was under the impression that regular DI didn't work at all at 180 degree angles. Because obviously when people are DI'ing to survive, they'll DI in whatever way gets them closer to the corner (usually at a ~90 degree angle to the hit), rather than just DI the exact opposite direction they were sent.

So basically, holding 180 degrees to the hit will reduce knockback for any move to a certain extent but it's only worth doing for very low knockback moves (in this case, the initial hits of Lucas' d-air), and with regards to surviving high knockback moves, DI'ing to the corner is more effective, correct?

 

[Jamwa]

Oh, I was under the impression that regular DI didn't work at all at 180 degree angles. Because obviously when people are DI'ing to survive, they'll DI in whatever way gets them closer to the corner (usually at a ~90 degree angle to the hit), rather than just DI the exact opposite direction they were sent.

So basically, holding 180 degrees to the hit will reduce knockback for any move to a certain extent but it's only worth doing for very low knockback moves (in this case, the initial hits of Lucas' d-air), and with regards to surviving high knockback moves, DI'ing to the corner is more effective, correct?

di the way you want to go lol

 

[pikmin.org]

But if it were that simple, then why don't people just hold the opposite direction to the hit for survival DI if it significantly reduces knockback?

 

[Jamwa]

But if it were that simple, then why don't people just hold the opposite direction to the hit for survival DI if it significantly reduces knockback?

because holding the opposite direction does not reduce knockback
and holding the opposite direction is not always exactly where you want to go. it works, but its not the best you could do.

 

[pikmin.org]

right sorry, i meant 'start the knockback from further away' instead of just meaning 'less knockback'. Okay, so even regular DI changes where you're sent from then. I thought it could ONLY change trajectory and SDI was the only thing that could change where exactly you were knocked back from. That makes sense now, thanks Jamie. So on top of the regular DI up on Lucas' D-Air, it would also be advisable to SDI up as well to get out sooner right?

 

[Jamwa]

Okay, so even regular DI changes where you're sent from then. I thought it could ONLY change trajectory

wrong, it only changes trajectory.
i dont know what you mean..