orange/xd
Smash Ace
Ban Lylat.
-
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The Lucas Boards' MU Thread - Discussing: Sonic
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~Nasty~
Smash Lord
i would also say ban lylat. i think delfino is a good stage for her.
If you end up on a stage w/ many platforms (i.e. BF and Lylat) her UpB can trap you on the platform if she is under it and you are on it. Just be aware of that.
If you're feeling risky, take her to Frigate. The stage isn't the greatest for her but it forces her to recover using downB on the side with no ledge. Predict where she'll land and meet it w/ an Usmash.
If you end up on a stage w/ many platforms (i.e. BF and Lylat) her UpB can trap you on the platform if she is under it and you are on it. Just be aware of that.
If you're feeling risky, take her to Frigate. The stage isn't the greatest for her but it forces her to recover using downB on the side with no ledge. Predict where she'll land and meet it w/ an Usmash.
orange/xd
Smash Ace
IIRC, Ps1 is a pretty good stage for her.
rPSIvysaur
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Anyone want to try to put together a stage list for going against her?
Tokaio
Smash Journeyman
Let's see....
Strike: LYLAT, I would say Battlefield. She likes platforms iirc.
Ban: LYLAT
CP: Brinstar, JJ seems okay to me. Maybe Frigate so you can punish her if she recovers from the right side.
EDIT: Now that I think about it, JJ seems the best counterpick to me...she'll have a really hard time killing on this stage. All her moves usually go diagonally up, so just DI moves such as Side-B up.
Strike: LYLAT, I would say Battlefield. She likes platforms iirc.
Ban: LYLAT
CP: Brinstar, JJ seems okay to me. Maybe Frigate so you can punish her if she recovers from the right side.
EDIT: Now that I think about it, JJ seems the best counterpick to me...she'll have a really hard time killing on this stage. All her moves usually go diagonally up, so just DI moves such as Side-B up.
orange/xd
Smash Ace
^Bair could still kill almost as well as on a stage like FD...
Y.b.M.
Smash Master
Tyr ***** ZSS.... (maybe except mine hehe) Check em out http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UzznhFfxLAI
rPSIvysaur
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[/move to general discussion pl0x]
HelpR
Smash Ace
so what's the consensus on ZSS? Kinda interested in seeing this one, as i've never really fought a ZSS that's good.
Not to mention that i'd like to discuss TL
Not to mention that i'd like to discuss TL
rPSIvysaur
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I have high school final's coming up so I'm not going to be able to update for a bit, but we should start discussing the next character. Chuee can notify the other boards and explain the situation and why the OP isn't updated.
Ok so apparently next character is TL. The MU is 55-45 or 60-40 tl.
-He outcamps us with rang, bombs, and arrow cancels.
-Slightly better horizontal aerial range.
-I think our ftilt outranges his jab. Not sure though.
That's all I have, gettin tl boards.
-He outcamps us with rang, bombs, and arrow cancels.
-Slightly better horizontal aerial range.
-I think our ftilt outranges his jab. Not sure though.
That's all I have, gettin tl boards.
MJG
Smash Hero
If you link this to our boards, please link it to this page instead of page 26
Anyways...Stages useful for lucas in this MU: BF, Halberd, Norfair (If legal). Any stage that allows toonlink to roam around freely.
I will touch on this later...I have played lucas offline and online and I will go through the matches in my head and post tomorrow most likely.
Anyways...Stages useful for lucas in this MU: BF, Halberd, Norfair (If legal). Any stage that allows toonlink to roam around freely.
I will touch on this later...I have played lucas offline and online and I will go through the matches in my head and post tomorrow most likely.
copacetic
Smash Journeyman
TL definitely has the advantage. he has an easier time than most gimping lucas (projectiles, tether recovery etc.) and lucas has a much harder time gimping since TL can cancel pk thunder with pretty much any attack, and all of them come out quick enough to not mess up our recovery.
On the other hand, I don't think TL has any guaranteed grab release followups, and a missed grab means a lucas upsmash.
If a TL is playing the matchup right, you won't have much chance to get above him for the dair->dtilt->kill move thing, and if you try to dair for the weak spike, our uair eats through it.
Lucas is not easy just straight out gimp, but if TL gets him offstage then he'll eat a good 4 or 5 attacks. We can throw our bombs pretty high and follow it with an uair to stop you from recovering high, so careful not to be too predictable with the pk fire to down b thing, and if you recover low we'll just drop down and bair/fair you since pkthunder takes too long to get off. and by the time you do get it off, you'll be forced to go onstage bc of our tether hogging, which means a free fair.
Just be sure to land the kill early. Only time I ever lose this matchup is if I die early, and lucas definitely has plenty of tools to kill under 100% (pkthunder1, smashes). However, if you let the TL zone you and you can't get in for that kill, TL will live up to 200%
On the other hand, I don't think TL has any guaranteed grab release followups, and a missed grab means a lucas upsmash.
If a TL is playing the matchup right, you won't have much chance to get above him for the dair->dtilt->kill move thing, and if you try to dair for the weak spike, our uair eats through it.
Lucas is not easy just straight out gimp, but if TL gets him offstage then he'll eat a good 4 or 5 attacks. We can throw our bombs pretty high and follow it with an uair to stop you from recovering high, so careful not to be too predictable with the pk fire to down b thing, and if you recover low we'll just drop down and bair/fair you since pkthunder takes too long to get off. and by the time you do get it off, you'll be forced to go onstage bc of our tether hogging, which means a free fair.
Just be sure to land the kill early. Only time I ever lose this matchup is if I die early, and lucas definitely has plenty of tools to kill under 100% (pkthunder1, smashes). However, if you let the TL zone you and you can't get in for that kill, TL will live up to 200%
MJG
Smash Hero
^Lucas can wave bounce back to the stage...he becomes easier to gimp once he is below the stage when recovery >_>.
No toonlink's have grab follow ups on lucas.
No toonlink's have grab follow ups on lucas.
copacetic
Smash Journeyman
dsmash gimp to boomerang puts you in a pretty bad place, and pretty much anything that forces you to recover at or below stage level. Honestly just dashing past the ledge and throwing a boomerang doesn't slow down our approach and provides a gimp if it's placed well on the return. And if it fails we follow up with fair. And if you try to pkthunder far away from stage we can just wait and spike it. I personally have the timing/spacing down pretty well, it's not too hard. So basically you have to recover high and avoid the uair (which I don't think you can really counter, so you'll just have to outsmart us with DI each time).
and TL can grab you pretty easily. zair->grab works very well on lucas so anytime we hit with it we have an almost guaranteed grab, and you don't even have to powershield his smash moves to grab him. PKthunder 2 is a free grab. They may not be used too often, but each of those moves means an easy free grab for TL.
prOAPC
Smash Lord
when is the ZSS MU discussion going to end? Because my friend is going to upload some videos from last friday, to many errors but meh, i did some pretty good moves with pkt and psi magnet 
HelpR
Smash Ace
Toon link..
A good toon link is a master at manipulating his projectiles. Toon link can outcamp lucas, not easily, but it's still really difficult for the lucas to keep up with the barrage. I generally find that after lucas has gotten past the deluge of weapons, he can generally combo the toon link rather easily, however, one has to keep in mind that even though toon link's strength is far away, he still has tools at close range, none of which we can shut down. Toon link however, has almost no setups for low damage kills on lucas, at least none that arent extremely easy to predict (i.e, fsmash, usmash, dsmash, only fsmash has any real killing potential below about 110. utilt kills at about 140, and if the TL hasnt used it at all up to that point, expect him to do so.) uair kills lucas very quickly, but again, unless you lack the ability to airdodge, or the TL traps you (boomerangs, bombs, lamp oil?) it should be somewhat easy to to dodge. Expect lucas to be able to kill TL at about 90-100 with fsmash, dtilt lock sets up early, at about 70 if I recall
This matchup is all about how well you can maneuver through the projectiles that TL flings at you. I'd have to say that in the air, TL can defeat lucas, particular above and below lucas, to the sides however, you can space using bair, but hit and run tactics work best due to TL's side aerials being somewhat quick. If you can bait a dair, punishing TL for it is rather worth it, just keep in mind that a skilled TL rarely falls for that sort of bait, so only expect the TL to use his dair whenever he knows it will hit, or at least that it will collide with something.
On the ground, close quarters, lucas has somewhat of an advantage. Just like diddy, a pressure game is preferable as allowing the TL to get a foothold of any kind means an uphill battle. if it's possible, pursue until death.
boomerang and arrow can gimp lucas by hitting PK thunder off stage. i've seen it happen several times, just be aware of it, and you should be fine.
this fight is definitely an uphill battle for lucas however, while i'll have to say that lucas kills at a lower percentage then TL could, TL can rack up the damage quite easily with projectiles. This matchup is all about the projectiles, if you can outcamp TL (which i'd like to see, i've never really tried that hard as i use pk fire very sparingly) then the matchup should be more in lucas' favor, otherwise, with how I see the matchup now, i'd say it's somewhat in TL's favor.
55-45
stages to CP: halberd, brinstar, norfair
stages to strike: yoshi's, lylat? (I dont know how most TL mains feel about lylat, but a good number are uncomfortable with it from what i'm told. they can uair through the stage however, punishing most attempts to punish them for edge camping.)
stage to ban: either yoshis or rainbow cruise, I dont see many stages that are bad for lucas that are extremely good for TL, but I dunno.
Oh, and I hate that frikkin zair.
A good toon link is a master at manipulating his projectiles. Toon link can outcamp lucas, not easily, but it's still really difficult for the lucas to keep up with the barrage. I generally find that after lucas has gotten past the deluge of weapons, he can generally combo the toon link rather easily, however, one has to keep in mind that even though toon link's strength is far away, he still has tools at close range, none of which we can shut down. Toon link however, has almost no setups for low damage kills on lucas, at least none that arent extremely easy to predict (i.e, fsmash, usmash, dsmash, only fsmash has any real killing potential below about 110. utilt kills at about 140, and if the TL hasnt used it at all up to that point, expect him to do so.) uair kills lucas very quickly, but again, unless you lack the ability to airdodge, or the TL traps you (boomerangs, bombs, lamp oil?) it should be somewhat easy to to dodge. Expect lucas to be able to kill TL at about 90-100 with fsmash, dtilt lock sets up early, at about 70 if I recall
This matchup is all about how well you can maneuver through the projectiles that TL flings at you. I'd have to say that in the air, TL can defeat lucas, particular above and below lucas, to the sides however, you can space using bair, but hit and run tactics work best due to TL's side aerials being somewhat quick. If you can bait a dair, punishing TL for it is rather worth it, just keep in mind that a skilled TL rarely falls for that sort of bait, so only expect the TL to use his dair whenever he knows it will hit, or at least that it will collide with something.
On the ground, close quarters, lucas has somewhat of an advantage. Just like diddy, a pressure game is preferable as allowing the TL to get a foothold of any kind means an uphill battle. if it's possible, pursue until death.
boomerang and arrow can gimp lucas by hitting PK thunder off stage. i've seen it happen several times, just be aware of it, and you should be fine.
this fight is definitely an uphill battle for lucas however, while i'll have to say that lucas kills at a lower percentage then TL could, TL can rack up the damage quite easily with projectiles. This matchup is all about the projectiles, if you can outcamp TL (which i'd like to see, i've never really tried that hard as i use pk fire very sparingly) then the matchup should be more in lucas' favor, otherwise, with how I see the matchup now, i'd say it's somewhat in TL's favor.
55-45
stages to CP: halberd, brinstar, norfair
stages to strike: yoshi's, lylat? (I dont know how most TL mains feel about lylat, but a good number are uncomfortable with it from what i'm told. they can uair through the stage however, punishing most attempts to punish them for edge camping.)
stage to ban: either yoshis or rainbow cruise, I dont see many stages that are bad for lucas that are extremely good for TL, but I dunno.
Oh, and I hate that frikkin zair.
copacetic
Smash Journeyman
bombs don't work on PKT1 or 2. Dair (if timed right) goes through it, which means good damage and a spike. note: if you tech the spike and follow up correctly, you get a free usmash. But only if the spike is done at a certain range above the stage.
we can hog the ledge and force you onstage with it, and once onstage you have a pause before you start to freefall, which is more than enough time to ledgehop a fair. This will usually send you far enough that you'll be offstage again on the other side of the stage, though by now you're high enough that you just need to avoid the uair
PKT2 moves about as fast as TL can run, so a retreating pivot grab works on a big enough stage if you use it offensively, though usually I'll just go for a JC reverse usmash if I find myself running away from it.
And don't PKT near the edge onstage. If we dair next to you, the windbox will send you over the ledge and you'll be in fall special
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I wouldn't spike a Lucas ever, since he's so small. However, going for a gimp would be easy. Throw an off stage arrow or boomerang and Lucas' UpB recovery is gimped. You could also kamikaze or hit it with a sword to get the gimp, but I recommend the boomerang the most.
I don't really know this matchup very well, so I'll just lurk until I got something.
I don't really know this matchup very well, so I'll just lurk until I got something.
copacetic
Smash Journeyman
^he's actually pretty easy to hit with it, since he's all horizontal and electric and whatnot, so there's a pretty wide range for us. As for the boomerang, you'll only hit on the return or if you come from an angle, so it's best to hit them away with a nair and as you fall below them throw one up, then DJ and get back to stage. If they're anywhere close to the ledge, we have more than enough time to drop down and bair/fair 2 or 3 times and force them to recover from far away.
I play this matchup wayyyy too much
I play this matchup wayyyy too much
copacetic
Smash Journeyman
Lucas, generally.
And pretty much anyone that's not a puffball or fat penguin. I really hope you didn't mean that seriously.
And pretty much anyone that's not a puffball or fat penguin. I really hope you didn't mean that seriously.
A2ZOMG
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This is probably one matchup where F-smashing to reflect projectiles is somewhat worthwhile, since his stuff is slow enough to react to, and you really don't want to have to be approaching TL the whole time.
HelpR
Smash Ace
I think someone's overestimating their character a bit.
TL has gimps, yes, but knowledge is power, and TL doesnt have even half of the setups that most characters have for getting lucas in a bad position. If the lucas is smart he'll avoid being put into a bad position.
If the lucas is remotely intelligent, he'll either recover directly parallel to the stage (where an arrow would take far too long to reach lucas, as by the time the arrow is fully charged the lucas should already be in PKT2, or at least out of the area where it would be possible to hit lucas or the PKT with an arrow.)
We should really conduct this as we would any other matchup. We've already said that TL can gimp lucas but that's irrelevant to the matchup if there's no way for TL to force lucas off the edge, so let's examine each aspect of the characters and how they interact, as well as how TL would force lucas into such a bad position, and perhaps how to prevent it/guarantee it.
As was pointed out earlier, it's generally safe to DI TL's aerials upwards at low percentages, as this prevents you from being comboed into a bad position.
fsmash is in fact worth it to be used as a reflector, however, i'd try and not use it against any projectile except for TL's boomerang, which will clang with whatever else TL throws out afterwards, allowing lucas to approach TL significantly easier.
TL has gimps, yes, but knowledge is power, and TL doesnt have even half of the setups that most characters have for getting lucas in a bad position. If the lucas is smart he'll avoid being put into a bad position.
If the lucas is remotely intelligent, he'll either recover directly parallel to the stage (where an arrow would take far too long to reach lucas, as by the time the arrow is fully charged the lucas should already be in PKT2, or at least out of the area where it would be possible to hit lucas or the PKT with an arrow.)
We should really conduct this as we would any other matchup. We've already said that TL can gimp lucas but that's irrelevant to the matchup if there's no way for TL to force lucas off the edge, so let's examine each aspect of the characters and how they interact, as well as how TL would force lucas into such a bad position, and perhaps how to prevent it/guarantee it.
As was pointed out earlier, it's generally safe to DI TL's aerials upwards at low percentages, as this prevents you from being comboed into a bad position.
fsmash is in fact worth it to be used as a reflector, however, i'd try and not use it against any projectile except for TL's boomerang, which will clang with whatever else TL throws out afterwards, allowing lucas to approach TL significantly easier.
Lobos
Smash Master
70-30 TL 
Get ***** little boys.
Get ***** little boys.
HelpR
Smash Ace
I loled heartily, thanks, I needed something to make me laugh
orange/xd
Smash Ace
LOL at the idea that TL can easily gimp Lucas.
rPSIvysaur
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No need to discuss gimping any further, a good Lucas player should know what and what will not gimp him. I'd like for you guys to try to talk about on stage tactics now.
I'm just perplexed by the concept of Toon Link easily gimping Lucas. Like **** all you have to do is not be ******** about his projectiles. I mean he can punish our recovery but so can basically everyone if they just grab the ledge.
TL is like Lucas in that he'll be afraid to use his grab since it's so punishable so you're moderately safe in your shield. Watch out for cross ups after that Zair and stuff. We're a lot faster than him up close so just cut the distance and start doing damage with jabs and tilts and whatnot. He beats us vertically with Uair and Dair so watch out for those. He's a good weight to Dair combo so you can get those off pretty often. I think it's probably like 60:40 TL's favor or something. It's not too bad. TL just has a few more tools than us like kill moves and better projectiles. Everytime you get him offstage you should be able to do damage with PKT1 which is nice. Just send it straight down when he's going for the ledge so that whether he uses Up B or tether he still gets hit. Sometimes you can get gimps this way but it's hard because they can DI it well and use bombs to let them Up B again and stuff like that.
TL is like Lucas in that he'll be afraid to use his grab since it's so punishable so you're moderately safe in your shield. Watch out for cross ups after that Zair and stuff. We're a lot faster than him up close so just cut the distance and start doing damage with jabs and tilts and whatnot. He beats us vertically with Uair and Dair so watch out for those. He's a good weight to Dair combo so you can get those off pretty often. I think it's probably like 60:40 TL's favor or something. It's not too bad. TL just has a few more tools than us like kill moves and better projectiles. Everytime you get him offstage you should be able to do damage with PKT1 which is nice. Just send it straight down when he's going for the ledge so that whether he uses Up B or tether he still gets hit. Sometimes you can get gimps this way but it's hard because they can DI it well and use bombs to let them Up B again and stuff like that.
prOAPC
Smash Lord
TL has the advantage, he has a good spam game with his projectiles, good setups for kills, lots of ATs with his bombs and a good recovery, i love that character, probably he would be my main if he wasn't an unlockable character lol he used to be my secondary, but i just need a better charactar to take that spot, in this case DDD (actually, i feel thatmy TL is better than my DDD lol)
copacetic
Smash Journeyman
You should never be able to hit a good TL with PKT1 offstage. It just takes a single boomerang to almost completely cover our recovery, and if we throw a bomb away from stage, we can just hit it with bair and cancel it. We really don't need anything complicated or fancy, it's really easy.