The Lucas Boards' MU Thread - Discussing: Sonic

[heytallman]

Lucas wins. Barely. 55/45 IMO.

At the beginning of the match, watch out for armor pieces. While bouncing they can still hurt you. Don't try to fsmash reflect them unless you're feeling lucky, punk.

You'll most likely be hit high quite a bit. she will jump up and upair or up b or something (whichever move spikes you kinda, I'm pretty sure it's up b). Lucas' dair beats that move, so if hit high, you'll be safe if you fast fall dair.

ZSS has a fast jab with good range, it's either 1 or 2 frames, but I'm thinking 2 for some reason, just as fast as our first one.

She's pretty light, and you can probably build up damage fairly easily. Lucas' normal kill options should work splendidly, should you do it right.

As far as her recovery goes, if she's low, PK thunder, if she's even with the stage or high, react accordingly. If about even to the stage she will probably side B. If you time it right I'm sure you could upsmash her out of it.

It may be tempting, but don't try to absorb her paralyzer beam. Absorb it and you're likely to get grabbed or side B'd. Don't try to predict her downsmash to absorb either. Not worth it.

Speaking of getting grabbed, her grab is pretty bad. You should only get grabbed out of punishes for stuff. If she whiffs a grab, a punish is simple.

PK fire camping is generally a good strategy, the only things she can try to do to beat it is side b or paralyzer, which PK fire cancels the latter.

As far as stages go.....I'm not really sure, but I would assume Frigate Orpheon and Lylat would be bad for her. Lylat I'm not sure about because for some reason I think I remember seeing someone say something about Lylat being good for her.....I don't know. I think Rainbow Cruise is a good one for her? I MM'd one of TX's ZSS players, and he CP'd me to Brinstar. I don't know if it's a good one for her or if he just liked it.

 

[orange/xd]

I'm pretty sure the first hit of her jab is 1 frame.

 

[~Pink Fresh~]

Yes, Her jab is 1 frame.

Pk fire camping is bad. Her run speed makes powershielding -> dash attack -> more gayness an extremely viable option.

 

[orange/xd]

I think this one's even. 50:50

Also, wtf at random spurt of activeness today.

 

[Galeon]

If timed right, ZSS can jump over PK Fire and hit you with our >B.

Our Uair beats every aerial you guys have if spaced right.

If we go out to edge-guard you, we're probably going to die.

D-smashing your Rope-Snake is pretty funny, and if we get that, it's basically your stock, so
don't be predictable.

Our ground game consists of tilts, mostly d-tilt and u-tilt.

D-tilt outranges most of your moves, and it's fast, so try to get a little in our face.

U-tilt is fast, but has a lot of after-lag. Try to bait it and punish us for doing it.

You can DI our jab down, and shield the third jab. From that, you probably get a free f-
smash.

Also, running u-smash to punish our whiffed grabs.

Not the best write-up. Galeon can fill in what he notices, as he plays me a lot.

60-40 ZSS

D-smash stuffs all your sh approaches except pk fire and magnet. Enjoy that. It'll outrange your fair. You can full hop dair it but uair trades with dair and that's not a positive trade.

Up close, u can deal quick damage better than she can because dair starters are awesome. Unless you get dsmashed, or get into the air without a jump, she can't really put a lot of damage on you. In those situations though, you're gonna take it pretty hard.

You can run block or sh airdodge side-b into free jabs/utilt if your timing's good. If it's off, you have to guess once you finally get in range. She can sit on a lead better than you can if she plays it smart. Lucas can sit on a lead as well but its alot more dangerous since side-b shield pokes suck.

She's harder to gimp than she should be. PK thunder has to be done carefully since she can down-b around it.

You can punish her utilt with fsmash, her dash attack with dair, can shieldgrab her third jab in anticipation (as in, u cant see that u blocked it and react to shieldgrab. you gotta commit).

I figured I'd have more to say about this, but I don't. It's a pretty straight forward match. It's not especially difficult or gay. You both have answers to everything. It's just that her options are generally safer/more rewarding. But on that same end, if she starts getting sassy with you, she can die at 60 for getting predicted.

 

[noradseven]

First off I like to thank you for having a guide which defines how you guys define matchup ratios, cause.... smash boards doesn't do it traditionally, I could go into a sperging fit here but lets not derail thanks for having that up.

I say 60-40 ZSS, we gotta be careful as par usual we die at around 50-60% from smash attacks if we go for something a bit risky.

I really wouldn't try to fight lucas with over B in this match too many ways he can screw us over, I would go for a solid poke game with d-tilts, and n-airs, and b-airs, d-smash too sometimes, and if the lucas lets me go for a more reactionary game play.

Also dear god don't try to up B recover too much against ZSS, I got good at timing that d-smash lol, however your over B down B recovery glitch thingy is decent, though we can punish with u-air its not a life or death gamble, but there are tricks to fool us that Im sure you guys know.

Basically I think its a p. close poking game, lucas maybe scoring a few more hits, but once your in the air its our game, and if your off the edge your in a big trouble spot.

Like I was saying though this is a weird *** fight for both sides, if neither side had a good bit of exp I would go and say 55:45 lucas, I mean lucas's f-smash is a **** good punisher to our **** and we gotta adjust our moves to accommodate for that, plus ZSS over B spam doesn't work well(something alot of players resort to when they don't know the matchup), and lucas d-smash is down right scary until you learn how to land and PS between hits, and that n-air beats/trades with it every time :D.


Replys to other comments:
I have said before and will say it again ZSS probably has the worst grab in brawl her throws are good though.

ZSS's U-tilt comes out on frame 3, and hits on both sides, and is HORRIBLY unsafe on block, if a ZSS plans on using u-tilt it better **** well hit...hint we normally use it as an OSS, or after a dash attack(should only do it on hit but sometimes well).

Ohh riddle I wonder are you ever going to become like me and grab so rarely ppl are literally shocked to discover that ZSS has a grab. Because in my mind against most the cast ya gotta land 3 grabs to make up for 1 missing .

Any ZSS that goes past jab 2 on a grounded opponent is ****ing with you hell they shouldn't go past the first jab its a free punish on hit and bad on block, most ZSS players jab to use the 1 frame advantage and use human reaction time (around .2seconds at best), to crouch cancel and poke with something else.

comedy note: I lost a stock in a tourney from lucas neutral B(aka Ike's bane)... I put down my controller and facepalmed, then picked it back up again, and spawned.

Last note:
If you PS our dash attack f-smash us :D, only works if we hit you with one of the earlier hitboxes of the dash attack, aka if we do it up close.

Also before you think this is all my character is the best and I have the I main my character gives him +10 bonus to matchup, ask the other ZSS's Im considered very pessimistic on most of our matches. On only like 2-3 matches do I think they are better than advertised.

 

[Chuee]

lolwat
How does her Uair beat our Fair? O.O
I think this MU is 55-45
Her Uair beats our Dair and is good at juggling.
You can stagespike her when she uses her tether.
She can Dsmash our ropesnake but we can avoid use tether.
If you absorb her Dsmash magnet cancel to avoid a dtilt.

I've played this MU a few times.

 

[orange/xd]

Chuee, 55:45 is who's favor?

 

[Chuee]

Zero Suit.

 

[lil cj]

hmmmm. we lose.

Her jab kills us.

jab1 -> roll back actually works as a gtfo tactic -_-

Oddly enough, I've never lost a set to a ZSS, though he's my crewmate. D:

Now to nitpick @ CJ.

Her side B doesn't have more range than PK fire

Holy crap, there is no way her Uair is the best aerial in the game.

If they predict nair then her dsmash beats it.

Our dair clanks with her Up B.

We don't really "win" up close, it's pretty even tbh.

My bad made a few mistakes lol
Uair is one of the best aerials b/c it can beat alot of dairs due its speed
Dsmash has start up is it fast enough to punish our autocancelled nair?
Our ground game is slightly better than ZSS' though

I say 60-40 ZSS, we gotta be careful as par usual we die at around 50-60% from smash attacks if we go for something a bit risky.

Isnt that a little much?
The fact that we can KO earlier and can deal with her better than others
should make this 55-45 or 50-50

 

[noradseven]

lolwat
How does her Uair beat our Fair? O.O
I think this MU is 55-45
Her Uair beats our Dair and is good at juggling.
You can stagespike her when she uses her tether.
She can Dsmash our ropesnake but we can avoid use tether.
If you absorb her Dsmash magnet cancel to avoid a dtilt.

I've played this MU a few times.

Our u-air is a disjoint, and it has a good bit of hit on both sides, but at extreme side range f-air wins but... I mean we could use b-air then.

We can d-smash you out of up B on most stages too :D.

My bad made a few mistakes lol
Uair is one of the best aerials b/c it can beat alot of dairs due its speed
Dsmash has start up is it fast enough to punish our autocancelled nair?
Our ground game is slightly better than ZSS' though



Isnt that a little much?
The fact that we can KO earlier and can deal with her better than others
should make this 55-45 or 50-50

EVERYONE can kill us a little earlier if we screw up, dear god snake we miss a grab and we are above 30%-40% we die right there.

What I was saying its its a closish fight on the ground probably your favor, but once we get in the air you are in huge trouble, your not ness, with his f-air/n-air which causes us problems, but then again you have a decent recovery, especially if you can over B jump. I stick to my 60:40, by your definition of matchups on page 1.

 

[Chuee]

Lucas shouldn't ever use PKT unless he has to.
Also, I think putting it at 60-40 solely because her game is better is a little too much.

 

[~Pink Fresh~]

There is no way ZSS is as hard as MK/Wario.

We lose but it's just barely.

 

[rPSIvysaur]

I'm actually starting to think we should but MK and Wario as 35:65 so we can have ratios a little more accurate. Thoughts?

 

[orange/xd]

No, don't do that. It will cause too much confusion.

 

[Chuee]

No, that makes the MU's seem terrible, which they aren't really.

 

[rPSIvysaur]

50:50
Very even matchup. Definition should be fairly obvious.

55:45
No character has a true solid advantage, but one has seemingly better/easier tools,
or one character profits more from winning a rock/paper/scissors guessing game.

60:40
One character has clearly better tools in the matchup.
However, the other character does have responses him,
and the matchup is still winnable through outplaying the opponent
or out spacing his tools and countering with the weaker ones well placed.

65:35
One character has options that shut down the other's options.
Counterpicking should be considered, but it's not completely unwinnable,
but rather simply requires one player to far outplay the other.

70:30
Something about the character in the advantage completely shuts down
the other character. Counterpicking is heavily recommended -
or rely on them not knowing the matchup and you knowing it incredibly well.

MK and Wario fit 35:65 IMO. . .

 

[~Pink Fresh~]

Erhm. I feel like We can counter warios lack of range, though he has ******** aerial mobility.

Wario can time us out like **** though.

MK isn't that bad, if you're getting grabbed then it sucks, but you shouldn't be.

If MK/Wario is 65:35, then what is Marth? if Marth is worse than MK/Wario, then he is obv 70:30, but wait Snake is our worst so is that 75:25 or worse?

It's fine how it is imo.

Though I like the

LOL
Large advantage
Advantage
slight advangte
even
Slight disadvantage
disadvantage
large disadvantage
LOL

Or

my way

Win
Even
Lose

 

[rPSIvysaur]

We already have Marth as 70:30

I just have Snake as 70:30 Impossible

 

[Chuee]

lmao if we put mk Wario at 65-35 we would have to put snake at around 75-25 or 80-20
Snake MU isn't THAT bad.

 

[rPSIvysaur]

Well maybe not Wario... but I think we should put Metaknight as 35:65

 

[~Pink Fresh~]

MK is easier than wario imo.

MK doesn't have guaranteed kills @ 100 -____-

Hmm.

Maybe I'm just too good @ the mk MU.

wait what we have Marth @ 70:30?

pfftt.

My system is best.

Win
Even
Lose

Since really, those are the only things that really matter.

Actually

Win
Lose

sounds better.

 

[Tyr_03]

ZSS is undoubtedly a babe. Although I wouldn't consider her my type, (I'm usually not very into blondes although I have been known to date them on occasion) her personality certainly makes up for it. Weilding a laser whip, you can only imagine that she's as much of a beast in the bedroom as she is in battle.

Best stage: my place
matchup: 100:0 my favor

Get some

 

[lil cj]

^^^^ Lmao!!!!

EVERYONE can kill us a little earlier if we screw up, dear god snake we miss a grab and we are above 30%-40% we die right there.

What I was saying its its a closish fight on the ground probably your favor, but once we get in the air you are in huge trouble, your not ness, with his f-air/n-air which causes us problems, but then again you have a decent recovery, especially if you can over B jump. I stick to my 60:40, by your definition of matchups on page 1.

Wow 30-40 % thats crazy!

Zap Jump ftw!
We have better kill moves than Ness imo.

After looking at the definition again I can see where your coming from
But like Pink mentioned that would mean she is as difficult as Wario and MK.
Wario has a grab release to fsmash on us and its a guaranteed stock at 100%
MK can gimp us better than most,dair camp us, and has a grab release on us too.
ZSS doesnt have anything on those guidelines that can beat us.
Of course she wins in the air, but all we have to do is not get in the air very often.

 

[Chuee]

Tyr is a player.
Also mk is probably easier than Wario but I don't think either are 65-35

 

[orange/xd]

The point of discussing matchup ratiosis to come up with a general consensus that everyone agrees with and use that. Not to change a ratio because one person (the OP) disagrees with the general idea.


Also, lol @ tyr

 

[HailCrest]

Utilt and dtilt are quick with good range and pop you into the air for combos. However, utilt has less forward range (in exchange for hitting both sides) and has 40 omgwtf frames of ending. Shield it and you still have like 10-12 frames to usmash oos.

Surprisingly, her aerials are all slower than ours (with the exception of uair). However, they make up for it with range. **** those legs.

Nair will never stale and can be used for ground combos. Frame 6.

Uair is her main combo move. Listen to the sound effect it makes, it's a ****ing sword. If she hits with the later part of the hitbox (at the end of the arc her leg makes), it combos into bair. Frame 4. It has pretty good kill power when you're around 120-140%, but is usually stale by then. However, this does mean it can be used for a revenge kill. Attack table being cleared out when dying and whatnot.

Fair hits on frame 6, kills on frame 16. I don't know whether you can DI out of this.

Bair is her main kill move and hits on frame 8 with marvelous range.

Dair first hits on frame 14. Usmash that *****, you'll rarely ever see this move get used if at all.

What % does her dash attack combo on Lucas end? (zamus can chain dash attacks on lucas until a certain %, it's unescapable)

Lol @ zamus crawling to avoid PK fire.

Dsmash can heal anywhere from 23% to 30% depending on charge if the zamus gets predictable with it.

Fsmash has 45 frames of ending lag (this doesn't count the hitbox that appears behind her). In the 0.01% chance that the zamus accidentally uses this move instead of, say, ftilt or a dash attack, hope that she's in range for a usmash.

If i'm not wrong, there's a certain dead zone between the sweetspot and the wire hitbox where there's no hitbox... would it be possible for someone to do the yellow circle thing for her sideB?

This is pure theory, but if the lucas learns the trajectory of zamus' down-b, would it be possible to usmash zamus after she uses it? She can't airdodge/control her trajectory, after all.

If she misses a grab/you sidestep her grab, put down your controller, laugh at the zss player, and proceed to usmash.

However, her throws are still pretty good and set up for nice combos. Dthrow in particular can be followed up with many things depending on your DI.

 

[LucasGrey]

60-40 for zss
im not sure if this is because i love zss over lucas but that how i feel.
Zss beats lucas in close-midrange.

Close range Zss has really fast 1 frame jabs though the last hit can be perfect shielded. Lucas has nothing quick enough to stop these jabs. Dtilt is fast. Ftilt is fast but crappy range and uptilt is fast but it range is crappy as well and very laggy.

Aerial
She also has great combo ability and her aerial combos are fantastic.
If ZSS gets one dtilt on you it is pretty much one free upair,bair or fair depending on you di as well as percentage (cause as percent rises you have enough time to evade the first hit.)As a ZSS secondary i love dtilt cause of its speed efficency as well. If you try to dodge the first upair with out using your double jump you will no doubt get hit by the following upair. So double jump outta that and magnet pull/di away from ZSS.

Mid-Range
At mid range zss can shine pretty well with neutral b(stun gun shots) or side b(plasma whip).
plasma whip is get for spacing and neutral b is as well. She can beat Lucas to the punch as well as pressure his shield to where you are trying to just avoid every hit coming you way.

Long range
Thank god she doesn't have any long range weapons to help her. If you get her far away she will just fight to get back to mid range and close range.

Killing potential
For the most part her aerials kill. I rarely see anyone killing with fsmash or upsmash.
Dsmash can set up kill moves so just make sure you are smart enough not to get hit by that. With ZSS i only look for bair(most used), upair (close to top of screen, second most likely kill) and fair(rare) kills.

What does Lucas do here?
I think Lucas can do a little bit heh heh. When she is close to you just shield not too long though and if you spot a laggy moment punish it. All lucas can do he is punish laggy moves . (Hint even dtilt is laggy just have to be quick.) If you gethit in the air don't fall into the upair trap and if you get hit by a upair just force yourself dont to the ground again. Be as annoying with nair as possible . Pk fire when you see the opportunity but it can be too risky to camp with it. If you can get her off the stage if sheis tethering dsmash you can get lucky. Anything to laggy like a grab can be punished with you upsmash. Dsmash spamming from zss is nothing to worry about.
If this happens;
1.)Jump outta your shield when a dsmash hits your shield.(I've done this plunty of times. Just remember this puts you in ZSS's domain the air.)
2.)You can punish it with a outta shield ftilt but if you aren't in range you will miss and she will get the dsmash that follows so make sure you are within the range.

If i remember anything else i'll post i suppose.
Oh and btw the zss boards are kinda slow. Im not sure if they are gonna come and help if you notified them. :S

 

[HailCrest]

they already have, lol

nick riddle was one of the first few to post when the zss discussion started

 

[LucasGrey]

oh almost forgot zss should never get gimped and if you gimp a zss the zss recovered wrong.
Her recovery gives her way to many options to be easily gimped but if you get zss outta her double jump or down b (assuming double jump was used) she can be gimped.
ZSS is a very hard kill anyone who says otherwise hasn't played any good one?

 

[Chuee]

She's hard to gimp but gimping her doesn't always mean she's doing it wrong.

 

[jiovanni007]

Teh Kirbehz are discussing this match-up, input would be nice. Teh kitteh shows the way.

 

[TheRockSays]

I think you guys are exaggerating with ZSS up close on the ground lucas has an advantage over ZSS.
ZSS options out of a shield usually involves D-tilt which is her fastest move but Lucas FSmash is rediculous Move that has a round house hitboxes. You gotta keep in Mind ZSS is lightweight and most of lucas Smashes are very strong. We can't out camp you. Which leaves are aerial game the only thing we can beat you with Keeping Lucas in the air is top priority gives me the conclusion of 50:50 :D

 

[orange/xd]

^i actually agree.

 

[rPSIvysaur]

Whether or not we can camp her is up to DMG >:D

TheRockSays does give some good input though

 

[~Pink Fresh~]

Aerial game is a huge part of brawl, and not only brawl, but lucas' game.

55:45

Yessss.

 

[~Nasty~]

If she misses a grab/you sidestep her grab, put down your controller, laugh at the zss player, and proceed to usmash.

^ this should be quoted and put in the write up for the MU. lol.... it's the infamous lolgrab.

oh and there's more air than ground on every stage. Therefore, we lose 45:55.

 

[rPSIvysaur]

So nobody has any disagreements about 45:55 MU and no disagreements about the MU remarks stated?

Ok, Stage discussion.

 

[Chuee]

Go Brinstar. Ban nothing.

 

[6Mizu]

Not trollin (no seriously I'm not trollin)
How would Delphino work? I feel that would help. (remember I'm just putting this out there as a thought, so don't ****in' get angry or anything like that)