The Lucas Boards' MU Thread - Discussing: Sonic

[Chuee]

Edit: Oh and Marth ***** the **** out of Lucas......how do you guys not even know you're own character?

We do, so stop making stupid assumptions acting like you know Lucas inside out. Marth isn't that bad, it's about 60-40. Snake is our worst MU.
Edit: Oh and Pika ***** the **** out of Sheik......how do you guys not even know you're own character?

Oh, btw the rankings list THATS ZELDA + SHEIK LOLOLOLOLOLOL LRN2LOOK BRO.
LIKE 80% OF THAT IS MOST LIKELY SHEIK. LMFAOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
GET ***** ZELDA

 

[lil cj]

Well judging from this: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=165954 they go more often then Lucas players do. LMFAO, Get ***** Lucas.

The reason she is used more is because of Sheik
If the Sheik player transforms into Zelda for a KO
thats points towards Zelda.
Can you name any other tournament Zelda players that use only Zelda, other than Dark Musician?
If you can I'll name the tournament Lucas players and lets see if theres more Zelda players

Edit: Oh and Marth ***** the **** out of Lucas......how do you guys not even know you're own character?

How did Marth get in this?
Marth ***** almost the whole cast including Zelda and Sheik
We know Marth is tough for us and that whole death grab nonsense
but Snake is our worst MU and main concern. Marth is nothing compared to him
We can somewhat camp against Marth and gimp him.

lil CJ, Mars has a point. I really think you guys are greatly mistaken if you don't consider Marth to be a rather huge threat against Lucas.

We understand DMT, but we are finding ways to deal with Marth.
If you check our discussion about Marth you will see
But Snake is far worst than Marth
We have nothing on him, he shuts us down

 

[rPSIvysaur]

His nair is safe on block, but upon being blocked it also does not lead into anything at all really.

Does everyone forget that Lucas' N-air can sheild poke? Especially since Sheik has a pretty bad sheild.

 

[-Mars-]

I'm just going to ignore chuee or whatever his name is since he's rather childish.

Just like Lucas, Zelda isn't viable on her own, so I go solo Zelda only in specific MU's and so do many others. I could name you about 5 solo Zelda's and maybe 15-20 Zelda players that are more proficient with Sheik(such as myself). Point is Ganondorf is played more than your character so calling out someone's character like that is rather pointless considering your character is BOTTOM 5 in the game for tourny attendance/placings.

Marth doesn't **** Sheik....Neo think's it's 45-55 Marth adv.

Squirtle is also a terrible MU for Lucas and I would imagine there to be others. Zelda and Lucas both suck so I see no reason to bring up there matchups when we are talking specifically about their MU with each other.

Also, Sheik is in a whole other league then Lucas.....bordering on viable.

Lastly, Lucas' nair has little range and would by beaten by the majority of Sheiks' moveset so if by chance I shielded the first attempt and was shield poked.....it would be player error on my part to have the same thing happen repeatedly.

 

[Chuee]

Mars stop throwing **** out like you know what you're talking about, because you don't. Stop talking about Lucas like you main him. You don't. We do. So stfu please.

Wow.......just wow. Squirtle....................terrible............
You don't know anything about Lucas.
Lucas is top of E and Sheik is bottom of C. Yeah, whole other league.
Sheik isn't bordering on viable. Bordering on viable is like top of B tier.

 

[KayLo!]

o.o

I was gonna contribute, but then I saw all the useless flaming and assumptions about Zelda from people who've OBVIOUSLY never played a competent Zelda.

/out

 

[lil cj]

I'm just going to ignore chuee or whatever his name is since he's rather childish.

Just like Lucas, Zelda isn't viable on her own, so I go solo Zelda only in specific MU's and so do many others. I could name you about 5 solo Zelda's and maybe 15-20 Zelda players that are more proficient with Sheik(such as myself). Point is Ganondorf is played more than your character so calling out someone's character like that is rather pointless considering your character is BOTTOM 5 in the game for tourny attendance/placings.

Marth doesn't **** Sheik....Neo think's it's 45-55 Marth adv.

Squirtle is also a terrible MU for Lucas and I would imagine there to be others. Zelda and Lucas both suck so I see no reason to bring up there matchups when we are talking specifically about their MU with each other.

Also, Sheik is in a whole other league then Lucas.....bordering on viable.

Lastly, Lucas' nair has little range and would by beaten by the majority of Sheiks' moveset so if by chance I shielded the first attempt and was shield poked.....it would be player error on my part to have the same thing happen repeatedly.

Chuee is very knowledgeable about Lucas imo

Sorry about getting side tracked with other MU's but...
Squirtle a bad MU??
I dont know the MU, so could someone verify how is it terrible for Lucas
Our worst MU's are Snake,Marth, and MK
My bad I thought Marth ***** Sheik like he does everyone except MK,Snake, and DDD
Hmmm I knew Lucas was bottom 5 but didnt know Ganon was used more than him.
Thats crazy!
Really that many Zelda players??...i didnt know
Sheik from what I see on the boards have alot of players
As for tourny viable, some believe Lucas is actually and is mid tier.
He may be at a disadvantage in most MU's but can still win most of the time
If people used him more he would be higher, same goes for Sheik imo, as a Sheik user myself I see that shes really underrated.
And as much as I love Zelda...idk...she has too many bad MUs to be viable
Sorry for turning this into a different discussion...
Bottom line

Zelda<Lucas<Sheik

 

[Chuee]

I've played a competent Zelda, but it was on wifi =/

 

[rPSIvysaur]

o.o

I was gonna contribute, but then I saw all the useless flaming and assumptions about Zelda from people who've OBVIOUSLY never played a competent Zelda.

/out

I'd like it if you helped us out. You'd probably be the most knowledgeable about the MU and could hopefully put an end to the flaming.

 

[-Mars-]

@lil cj

I don't know much about Lucas' status as far as him moving up or down goes, I know Ness is going to rise because he gets crazy rep by amazing players......if i'm wrong about Lucas then my bad.

I thought Squirtle had GR chaingrab to dthrow for basically a zero to death? Maybe i'm wrong on that?

 

[rPSIvysaur]

It's a dash regrab. . .

Charizard is the one with the standing one.

 

[Chuee]

Squirtle does, but it's about the only thing he has going for him in the MU. It's about 60-40.

 

[-dMT-]

My honest opinion after my experience here is, the Lucas boards have a very bad case of denial when it comes to their character.

You do NOT have to main a character to know the character more than someone who does Chuee. That's quite the naive statement to make, and I feel obliged to point you out on that. That whole thing depends on who the two people in question are.

Also, I cannot recall a single instance when my shield was poked by Lucas' nair, even when it had diminished to nothing but an incredibly small orb around her waist. Sheik gets poked at her feet. Now THAT is a tested fact. Evey time I have had Lucas approach me, it would either be nair > jabx3 or the better alternative nair > ftilt > ftilt... The only way either of those will accomplish anything, is if the Sheik prematurely releases shield or she stays put in her shield until it breaks. Both of those have in fact happened to me. As you will agree though, Sheik can safely roll back, which is how said scenario almost always ends for me. So now, Sheik's shield is in no way as horrible as you claim.

Also no. Marth in NO way ***** Sheik. He has no guaranteed...anything on us. His advantage solely comes from his disjointed priority and the relative difficulty to gimp him as Sheik. Also the fact that he CAN escape the ftilt lock quite early. Despite all that, the MU is not any worse than 60-40, and is indeed arguably 55-45 Marth favor.

Overall, I don't like the entire defensive, defiant attitude here. It's not very respectful when I come in with valuable information and actual facts from experience and research, only to face attempts at being debunked by mostly empty boasts without any explanations. I believe I provided more facts about how a Lucas would attempt to gimp a Sheik more than any of the Lucas mains posting here did, even though they were the ones who proceeded to claim that Sheik can easily be gimped.

 

[rPSIvysaur]

Yes, their are alot of people here in denial.

Lucas is a bad character and we all know it. But as it seems we all agree that the MU is 60:40. We're just trying to figure out the best options we can have against Sheik. Again, we aren't defending the numbers, we're trying to figure out our best options.

So what I can conclude from your post:
N-air to d-tilt might sheild poke b/c your sheild doesn't cover your feet very well. Even though d-tilt sucks, it's still what we try to figure out we can do. Just imagine this from our perspective.

 

[Chuee]

The flaming started with Mars claiming that Marth ***** Lucas and that we don't know our character.
Character mains know more about their character than probably anyone.
We know our character is bad, and we know what our character can do. Trust me, Lucas doesn't get gimped at high levels of play. I've never been gimped before. All were SDs, me messing up my angling with PKT2 (wifi <.<) I do admit that Sheik has a really good gimp game, she can force us to use PKT, but she cannot actually gimp us.

This is why I hate MU dicsussions.
Neither character mains know as much about the other character as they do theirs.
It's just
"My character can do this to your character"
"No that won't work because my character can do this"
"No my character can do this, which beats what you said."
"No my character does this which beats out that"
It goes on and on and on until you realize you sound like a ****ing idiot and what you're saying won't ever happen in a real match.
Example: I was arguing on Ness' gimping abilities with PKT tail. I said Ness has ending lag on PKT and won't be able to grab the ledge fast enough. So then they said that they would jump high enough that when the PKT would end that they would grab the ledge.
<.<
I agree with the ratios anyways.
I don't think a zelda has posted a ratio. I'll put it as 55-45 lucas.

 

[LucasGrey]

My honest opinion after my experience here is, the Lucas boards have a very bad case of denial when it comes to their character.

You do NOT have to main a character to know the character more than someone who does Chuee. That's quite the naive statement to make, and I feel obliged to point you out on that. That whole thing depends on who the two people in question are.

Also, I cannot recall a single instance when my shield was poked by Lucas' nair, even when it had diminished to nothing but an incredibly small orb around her waist. Sheik gets poked at her feet. Now THAT is a tested fact. Evey time I have had Lucas approach me, it would either be nair > jabx3 or the better alternative nair > ftilt > ftilt... The only way either of those will accomplish anything, is if the Sheik prematurely releases shield or she stays put in her shield until it breaks. Both of those have in fact happened to me. As you will agree though, Sheik can safely roll back, which is how said scenario almost always ends for me. So now, Sheik's shield is in no way as horrible as you claim.

Also no. Marth in NO way ***** Sheik. He has no guaranteed...anything on us. His advantage solely comes from his disjointed priority and the relative difficulty to gimp him as Sheik. Also the fact that he CAN escape the ftilt lock quite early. Despite all that, the MU is not any worse than 60-40, and is indeed arguably 55-45 Marth favor.

Overall, I don't like the entire defensive, defiant attitude here. It's not very respectful when I come in with valuable information and actual facts from experience and research, only to face attempts at being debunked by mostly empty boasts without any explanations. I believe I provided more facts about how a Lucas would attempt to gimp a Sheik more than any of the Lucas mains posting here did, even though they were the ones who proceeded to claim that Sheik can easily be gimped.

Just to be fair it isn't just the lucas mains only. That would just be place the blame on us and though i didn't take part in much flaming i was reading the entire thing and it wasn't just chuee or the lucas mains. -Mars- also help alot to bring the flaming to its maximum. I mean it that "I'm better than you" attitude you can't really change and when 2 people with that same ego come together crazy stuff goes on.

The flaming started with Mars claiming that Marth ***** Lucas and that we don't know our character.
Character mains know more about their character than probably anyone.

Here chuee is absolutely right and mars went and tried to put down the lucas' mainers here as a whole. With a state like what -mars- has said that make everyone here not happy.
And alot of lucas agree that snake is our worst so you can't agree with a community that has already determined the matchup that is just pointless and it is was trolls do. Seems to me that statement was purposely put there to anger people. Wouldn't you agree?

 

[-dMT-]

The flaming started with Mars claiming that Marth ***** Lucas and that we don't know our character.
Character mains know more about their character than probably anyone.
We know our character is bad, and we know what our character can do. Trust me, Lucas doesn't get gimped at high levels of play. I've never been gimped before. All were SDs, me messing up my angling with PKT2 (wifi <.<) I do admit that Sheik has a really good gimp game, she can force us to use PKT, but she cannot actually gimp us.

This is why I hate MU dicsussions.
Neither character mains know as much about the other character as they do theirs.
It's just
"My character can do this to your character"
"No that won't work because my character can do this"
"No my character can do this, which beats what you said."
"No my character does this which beats out that"
It goes on and on and on until you realize you sound like a ****ing idiot and what you're saying won't ever happen in a real match.
Example: I was arguing on Ness' gimping abilities with PKT tail. I said Ness has ending lag on PKT and won't be able to grab the ledge fast enough. So then they said that they would jump high enough that when the PKT would end that they would grab the ledge.
<.<
I agree with the ratios anyways.
I don't think a zelda has posted a ratio. I'll put it as 55-45 lucas.

That's all because knowing your character isn't enough to know the MU. It takes people with experience in the MU, and the patience to put their pride aside and debate intelligently to agree on such ratios, and ONLY with a lot of statistical and frame data.

I'll say this again, YES Lucas can be gimped by Sheik, and NOT ONLY when the Lucas screws up their recovery due to whatever johns. There isn't a consistent, reliable gimp however, if thats what you mean.


As for the question for shield poking Sheik, I have never had a Lucas attempt dtilts on me when my shield had gotten low, perhaps after nair pressure, so i won't be able to give a direct answer. However, I agree that would be a good place to start if attempting to poke. Perhaps some testing on this is in order.

 

[Rachmaninav89]

I was excited to talk about this match up but it seems like reading in it was pretty much discussed and I missed out on the original intro. haha Regardless I'll just say I agree with the match up ratios. Lucas can do work on zelda, and sheik can do cool stuff against Lucas. haha To gimp lucas though I agree with every other lucas main that has said it's pretty much impossible to gimp Lucas. If a lucas knows what he or she is doing, then they will not be gimped unless the pkt is cancelled. The range is too awesome haha. I guess I'll just put in my 2 cents regardless if its been said. If you grab the ledge while zelda recovers, shes forced to recover on the ledge so it can make for free smashes. and finally all lucas' who have stuck around the boards know that lucas is a low tier character and has some very bad matchups. We had a wonderful discussion on lucas in the summer where we all argued about it haha.
uh
yea zelda 55-45 lucas advantage.

 

[-Mars-]

Sheik isn't going to gimp lucas. You're acting like I can't angle PKT. You're acting like I can't tether. Oh, and Sheik has no way to force me to use PKT assuming I DI correctly.

Stop acting like a ****ing douche. Sheik can't punish a Dsmash on a platform. Everything gets shielded.
Lucas can rack damage on any character reliably. Dair does 20%, combos into jab ftilt utilt and dtilt and is perfectly safe on block. Nair does about 14% or so can combo into same as Dair except no dtilt if you try SDIng it. I never said Sheik can't outcamp lucas. ****ing **** lrn2read.

dMT MaNgA, stop being a dumb*** and acting like I'm so clueless.

Um this post occurred before my statement about Marth. if that isn't starting flames then I don't know what is <_<.

 

[ZMan]

Edit: Oh and Marth ***** the **** out of Lucas......how do you guys not even know you're own character?

you didn't see that match with me v lonewolf, did you?

for zelda i just jab and dair a lot and it works. sheik idk too much about other than ftilt and needles being annoying.

 

[-dMT-]

Just to be fair it isn't just the lucas mains only. That would just be place the blame on us and though i didn't take part in much flaming i was reading the entire thing and it wasn't just chuee or the lucas mains. -Mars- also help alot to bring the flaming to its maximum. I mean it that "I'm better than you" attitude you can't really change and when 2 people with that same ego come together crazy stuff goes on.
Here chuee is absolutely right and mars went and tried to put down the lucas' mainers here as a whole. With a state like what -mars- has said that make everyone here not happy.
And alot of lucas agree that snake is our worst so you can't agree with a community that has already determined the matchup that is just pointless and it is was trolls do. Seems to me that statement was purposely put there to anger people. Wouldn't you agree?

Mars makes a good point in Chuee's attitude prior to any flaming. I will agree with you about the two opposing egos clashing, but do consider that despite being a calm individual myself, I found it very difficult to take Chuee seriously with his immediately aggressive, and seemingly groundless boasts for Lucas and against Sheik/Zelda.

Ending a post with

Get ***** Sheik/Zelda's

is not in anyway helpful or respectful.

I understand that when I invite someone to my house to learn and discuss some things with them, I will hear them out and promote further discussion. It's common courtesy to not call someone over just to aggressively shoot down their thoughts. In that regard, I would have expected more hospitality.


Thank you RocketPSIence though for managing the thread well and patiently progressing the discussion amid the chaos. At least the discussion between you and me makes me feel like my input was appreciated.

 

[LucasGrey]

Well atleast I will say that we should then start over rather han continue on with such nonsense.

 

[-Mars-]

you didn't see that match with me v lonewolf, did you?

for zelda i just jab and dair a lot and it works. sheik idk too much about other than ftilt and needles being annoying.

Yea I did see it. You're a beast with Lucas I aint gonna lie....we should have friendlied.

 

[Rinku リンク]

I'd say the Zelda MU is 55:45 or 60:40 at worst Lucas's favor.
Lucas forces Zelda to approach but that doesen't mean you outright just **** her for that. She still has a few options for CQC such as D-tilt, F-tilt, D-smash, and maybe Jab but of course there all punishable in their own way. Zelda really has no way of gimping Lucas(unless you recover like a ****** of course) but it's incredibly easy to gimp Zelda by edgehogging or simply punishing her for ending lag after her Up-B. As for PKF it's all about mindgames and punishing Zelda for using her below average reflector in an attempt to reflect your PKF back at you, but it's fairly decent for a GTFO move IMO so watchout for that. Killing her should be no problem what so ever since she's as light as a feather. However in return she can kill pretty early with her disjointed U-air if aren't careful. She'll most likely use F-smash or U-smash to finish the job but there easily punished if you know how to do it right. Hope this helps.

 

[rPSIvysaur]

Thank you RocketPSIence though for managing the thread well and patiently progressing the discussion amid the chaos. At least the discussion between you and me makes me feel like my input was appreciated.

Thanks, well do you have any thing left to say about Sheik vs. Lucas or have you covered all you need to talk about?

 

[Chuee]

LMAO. I don't even know whether I should bother replying to this. You sound like a Lucas fanboy who can't accept how ****ty his character is. At least when I main Sheik, I know how bad she is. Seriously... Lucas can't get gimped by Sheik? LOL

hmmm?
also that thing at the end of my post was a joke.

 

[KayLo!]

As for PKF it's all about mindgames and punishing Zelda for using her below average reflector in an attempt to reflect your PKF back at you,

I've seen this way too many times in this discussion to let it ride:

A good Zelda will not try to reflect PK Fire.

We know Naryu's sucks as a reflector. Obviously we're not gonna try to use it as one, especially vs. a projectile that, when spaced correctly, won't even get reflected all the way back onto you. We're not ********.

That being said, PK Fire ain't all that fast, so you probably won't be able to get that many in unless you're punishing something: a laggy move, an open landing, etc. Reflecting won't be one of those things if the Zelda knows what they're doing.

Vs. PK Fire spam, we're much more likely to attempt to perfect shield + punish. If you space badly and we're within range, dash attack or usmash OOS will also work.

 

[Tyr_03]

o.o

I was gonna contribute, but then I saw all the useless flaming and assumptions about Zelda from people who've OBVIOUSLY never played a competent Zelda.

/out

lol again, I don't play wifi. How are we supposed to play "competent" Zelda's when they never go to tournaments?

A top Lucas main playing a top Zelda main is so ****ing rare that I doubt it's ever even happened lol. Now a bunch of swf Lucas mains and Zelda mains come in and theorycraft the matchup like we all know what's up. I don't know Zelda frame data, tactics or anything and I don't much care because the chances of me facing a Zelda in brackets who doesn't suck are practically zero. And that's not an assumption, it's fact from going to tournaments consistently for over a year.

People can get all upset over matchups but it means nothing until you have something to back it up.

 

[KayLo!]

I don't know Zelda frame data, tactics or anything and I don't much care because the chances of me facing a Zelda in brackets who doesn't suck are practically zero.

So then don't contribute if you don't know the MU. Saying nothing is infinitely better than posting false information.

You (general you, not you in particular) may not face Zeldas in bracket at tournaments, but at least have something to back your theories up (friendlies, mms, wifi with minimal lag, etc.).

Also note that I only said a competent Zelda. Competence has nothing to do with where you play someone. If you play an *** Zelda, they're *** whether it's online or offline. However, I will say that wifi matches are generally insufficient for MU discussion, especially for a character like Zelda who, imo, does much better -- or at least plays much differently -- online.

 

[Tyr_03]

I never did contribute to the discussion. I'm just saying that I don't think anyone has anything very meaningful to contribute so I don't understand why people are getting upset.

 

[KayLo!]

I never did contribute to the discussion.

(general you, not you in particular)

x.o

Anyways, my point is just that people who don't know the MU should just be quiet. A lot of hot air up in here, and it drives away people who have something intelligent to say, because they'll see it as a lost cause.

 

[~Pink Fresh~]

There is a lack of knowledge on both sides of the argument.

There also is a huge tangent about random stuff like Lucas' worst MU.

The best option would be to not theorycraft, because honestly almost nobody knows what they're saying, albeit I don't know much Zelda, but quite a bit about sheik. I'm no expert sheik, but I know the char pretty well.

I also have amazing general knowledge of the game.

What points need to be cleared?

this obv isn't going anywhere.

I can't answer everything, but I'll answer what I can

 

[Chuee]

Sheik gimping Lucas.

 

[HelpR]

so does anyone have any meaningful input on the zelda - lucas portion of the matchup? it looks like we exhausted most of what could be said about sheik - lucas, so we may as well concentrate our efforts on the princess over the ninja.

 

[~Pink Fresh~]

Sheik usually won't gimp lucas until higher percents.

The method said earlier in the thread was to GR at the edge, then speed hug, forcing a DJ > PKT2. Fortunately, Lucas can Zap jump making the argument weakened, seeing as that opens up more options/mix ups to keep the opponent guessing.

Now from the GR we have DJ airdodge, DJ > aerial, PKT2, DJ > PKT2, Zap jump.

Is it possible? yes, but it's likelihood is not less than 50:50.

Sheik will gimp @ higher percents [70% ish] where her fair will send at a near horizontal trajectory and her Bair/Nair sex kicks can be used more effectively.

Oh also, if sheik grabs you out of your DJ, regardless of % then you'll get gimped.

 

[DMG]

Lucas loses to Shiek, but beats or at worst goes even with Zelda. I'm inclined to say that on the majority of stages, Zelda loses.

 

[rPSIvysaur]

What stages would you say are worse or better for Zelda?

 

[HelpR]

yoshi's island is a stage I hear common complaints about, but it's an obvious double edged sword here. norfair is good for us in general, planking ftw, if we get chain GR to the edge, we can simply tether at a lower level and be fine. brinstar is also fairly awesome for us, chain GR is a pain there, but hardly impossible. several sheiks complain about delfino, but remember if you plan to go there that sheik can dash regrab, so be on the lookout for that when there's a walkoff section.

if I had to recommend a CP stage, i'd say norfair, brinstar, and delfino as sheik is hindered on these stages for varying reasons, or simply a better stage for us then them. just remember that these are all stages that are favorable for MK.... so yeah.

i avoid BF against sheik due to tipper usmash, just like marth, but that's just me, double the fact that sheik is strongest on neutral stages, it seems like the best ban choice

 

[DMG]

Battlefield is worse for her.
Same for Smashville and PS1.
YI and FD are acceptable.
Most CP stages favor Lucas. Delfino, Lylat, Castle Siege, etc.

 

[~Pink Fresh~]

lol I think MU discussions need a DMG section, where we talk about the ratio when one char gains a % or stock lead.

I really feel like once the % is large enough, lucas can just run away and nothing can be done.