The Lucas Boards' MU Thread - Discussing: Sonic

[orange/xd]

We don't have to aim the Din's at you. Use it to make you bait it, then punish accordingly.

I don't understand this.

Both players at long range, Zelda uses Din's to bait the magnet, Zelda runs up and punishes somehow?

wat

 

[DMG]

6/4 Shiek.

55:45 Lucas concerning Zelda.

 

[rPSIvysaur]

lol. Cmon, you should know me by now Mars. I often sway things abit more Sheik's way in these MU discussions. Just take what I said, sway it in the character-in-discussion's way ac% and you have what's probably the final verdict to be:

Sheik Favor: 60-40
​

This is generally what everyone feels about the MU.

EDIT: You guys keep mentioning baiting things from Zelda. Isn't that a bit presumptuous. What RELIABLE ways of dealing damage does Lucas have vs Zelda? That's the question to ask. Mindgames are mindgames, and have no solid place in MU discussions.
​

The exact same thing can be said about Zelda in the MU. Except Lucas can sit on a lead ten times easier.

 

[LucasGrey]

I don't understand this.

Both players at long range, Zelda uses Din's to bait the magnet, Zelda runs up and punishes somehow?

wat

Me as well. Hmm i can't see zelda ever bait magnet unless Lucas is point blank in Zelda face.

 

[-Mars-]

The magnet. It is all about the magnet.you use your fire and if she fireballs magnet. Without the Fireball she really has to approach cause she has nothing more. Plus range on pkfire is pretty far especially whenthe lucas bsticks plus if you are bsticking you'll never get hit by your own pk fire because of you bounce back. Plus when you think about it approaching makes you punishable people make mistakes when they approach gonna use ganon as an example bu he gets owned because he has to approach and in this match zelda has to approach.

Ok you don't seem to get it. I dont use fireball....I just stand there. Then I powershield your pathetic projectile.......how are you camping me?

Edit: In fact if I just stand there Lucas really doesn't have a lot of range on anything other than his smash attacks so it's very hard for him to safely touch Zelda, especially since your grab is terrible I can sit in my shield a lot. Zelda is a walking wall of priority so if I have a lead I could imagine it being very hard for Lucas.

 

[-dMT-]

I think they are also referring to a situation in which Lucas has gained the lead, at which point Zelda is forced to approach to rack damage.

Regardless, Mars does make a solid point. Zelda can simply shield walk and dash avoiding damage to get up close. Just the fact that shielding is in general very safe vs Lucas says something about this camping strategy as well. Not like you guys can 'bait' a shield grab reliably.

 

[rPSIvysaur]

Lucas can actually be pretty gay on sheilds...

What would you do if we SH N-air across your sheilds to jab? or another variation?

 

[LucasGrey]

Ok you don't seem to get it. I dont use fireball....I just stand there. Then I powershield your pathetic projectile.......how are you camping me?

Edit: In fact if I just stand there Lucas really doesn't have a lot of range on anything other than his smash attacks so it's very hard for him to safely touch Zelda, especially since your grab is terrible I can sit in my shield a lot. Zelda is a walking wall of priority so if I have a lead I could imagine it being very hard for Lucas.

Now i kinda wanna see a video of you playing a lucas if you have one. Just a though.

 

[-Mars-]

Usmash>your nair. You pretty much don't want to be jumping over Zelda.

 

[-dMT-]

Lucas can actually be pretty gay on sheilds...

What would you do if we SH N-air across your sheilds to jab? or another variation?

Uhm. what Lucas is gonna do is either SH nair > X or FH dair > SH nair > X

X = jabx3 or ftilt

Erm.. I will roll back right after you finish X. Balls back in your court dude, what you gonna do now?

 

[rPSIvysaur]

Get you untill you're at the edge to edge pressure you.
Yes, Lucas does suck against roll backs, but that in turn means you can be a complete sheild wh****.

I also have a question, how do you plan on getting the lead?

 

[Chuee]

I'll come in for the Sheik half of it.

Right off the bat, Lucas is not camping Sheik. Anyone who thinks they can camp even a half-decent Sheik with Lucas is greatly mistaken.

Sheik is a monster in racking damage close range, and also quite adept at it at long range (Needle storm fresh is 18% fully charged, hence the camping.) Usually Sheik has to watch her spacing very closely to keep herself safe, but in the case of Lucas more often than not Sheik can safely pressure his shield, since a shield grab is not a thing to worry about and Lucas doesn't really have any OoS option that will end Sheik's onslaught.

Some things Sheik will do:

- Camp needles to force Lucas to approach. Lucas can be punished for almost all of his approaches easily by Sheik, save for a few that work quite well for you guys that i will mention later on. You won't be punishing Dair. Hey, a good approach.
- Look for a grab > ground break GR into Ftilt lock > regrab/ finisher. Finisher will either be a utilt, fair, or nair generally. If she gets the regrab, expect another grab release ground break forced at percents under 90-100%. This leads to A LOT of damage. Finisher? I hope you don't mean killing because none of those moves kill. I don't know yet but I'm thinking lucas can break out of sheik's ftilt range.
- At higher %s, a grab from Sheik will usually mean forcing air breaks after maybe 1 pummel just for extra damage, and dashing in to regrab. This is true versus Lucas at high percents, and essentially guarantees getting Lucas to the edge of the stage, upon which the Sheik forces one last air break letting Lucas free fall down. This leads to the gimping routine:
- Sheik can easily force a PKT2 recovery from here by simply grabbing the edge. Once Lucas starts the PKT2 animation, a smart Sheik will know not to try to interrupt, but to get right back on the stage near the edge, and let out the chain. The chain DOES indeed stop the PKT2 Lucas from grabbing the edge much more often than not, and after dealing a decent amount of damage, it lets Lucas freefall to attemp another PKT2 and often in a bad position, while Sheik is safely waggling her chain. This often continues until the Lucas is too far down or somehow in a bad position in an attempt to DI out of the Chain hits, at which point the Sheik would finish the gimp by simply hogging the edge. LOL Lucas doesn't get gimped. I don't care how many times you can force us back offstage you can't gimp us without a reflector like mario's cape.

Yes, Sheik can be very troublesome. However, this is pretty much, alongside the GR-DACUS, her only way of reliably killing, if that.


Now for Lucas. His approaches are usually something to laugh at as Sheik, except for that dreaded dair. A FH Dair can be very annoying, and has always given me the most pressure by far out of any of Lucas' approaches. There's also the very important setup into a usmash kill that it provides with dair > dtilt > usmash. This will get you kills vs Sheik very often near the 100% mark, since that specific combo doesn't seem to work at lower percents, but at least the usmash makes for a guaranteed kill at such high percents.

The problem with Lucas is racking up that damage. Once the Sheik figures out that it has to wait a bit and escape your shield pressure shenanigans at specific times, it becomes very hard for Lucas to rack damage. Racking damage? You've got to be ****ing kidding me. Lucas has ABSOLUTELY no problem racking damage, and never will.

When it comes to gimping, Lucas cannot easily gimp Sheik. he also doesn't have anything reliable as a setup. It mainly boils down to skillful use of the PK Thunder, since Sheik can simply fair an obvious one coming right at her. We gimp you when you try to double jump.

Sheik, on the other hand, is quite adept at racking damage and Lucas is definitely no exception. Also, since one of Sheik's rather reliable ways of getting a stock off Lucas is through gimps and since her main tool in accomplishing it - the chain - doesn't vary much in how it works based on opponent's damage, this can lead to very early kills on Lucas. Once again Sheik doesn't gimp lucas

This puts the Sheik vs Lucas MU at about a 70-30 Sheik favor. No

I used to effectively dual main both Sheik and Zelda, though admittedly I have favored Sheik much more lately. I don't recall using Zelda much at all vs Lucas, so I won't be able to share much on that half of the MU, but trusting the Zelda boards' verdict being 50-50 and some sound arguments, I can easily say this MU is one of the difficult ones for Lucas.

Hell no. Hell yes.



Magnet doesn't do **** as I don't use dins fire much anyways. Lucas isn't hard at all as Zelda it's nearly an even matchup Lucas gets wrecked by dtilt. hmm Dtilt depends on what you use it for. Either way it isn't a problem. Try to lock us and we DI out of it. You can't hit us with it OOS if we space.



Zelda is bottom tier garbage but this is in no way a hard counter MU lmao. There is nobody in this thread even mentioning WHY Lucas beats Zelda like frame data or anything. Do I need to remind you that Lucas is pretty garbage as well? lol. What does frame data have to do with anything....................

I saw Tony last weekend at R3....he's OKAY at best.



How does Lucas go about playing a long range pressure game if I just stand there? lol. Bait a Naryu punish with retreating Fair repeat or if you try running and shielding we'll just keep using PKF until you approach, or use Naryu.



Yes there is.



How the hell do you camp Sheik? Nobody really can camp Sheik in this game.
Even characters with GOOD camping games like Diddy and Tink.
You camp shiek by using full hop PKF, if you can predict the needles. That is only for mid-range sadly.



Why does Zelda have to approach? If I have a lead i'm going to just stand there. Like really I can't see Lucas having a fantastic camping game if I just sit there. Zelda doesn't have a projectile useful against lucas and her only refelctor is ****. Yeah, gotta approach sometime.

Edit: DMTManga made a good post with ACTUAL information in it unlike the rest of this garbage lol. Although I don't think Sheik beats Lucas that bad tbh.

We don't have to aim the Din's at you. Use it to make you bait it, then punish accordingly.Yeah, because everyone knows top level lucas' never magnet cancel. Ever.

In fact if I just stand there Lucas really doesn't have a lot of range on anything other than his smash attacks so it's very hard for him to safely touch Zelda, especially since your grab is terrible I can sit in my shield a lot. Zelda is a walking wall of priority so if I have a lead I could imagine it being very hard for Lucas.

Ahh so now if I have a slow grab my opponent can sit in his shield all day and there is nothing I can do? Shield Pressure. Lucas' is the ****ing ****.

Oh, and what you said above that. I'm camping you. PKF is more of punishing approaches than camping. Either way you must and will approach us. Then you get wrecked.



Get ***** Sheik/Zelda's

 

[-dMT-]

Ahh so now if I have a slow grab my opponent can sit in his shield all day and there is nothing I can do? Shield Pressure. Lucas' is the ****ing ****.

Oh, and what you said above that. I'm camping you. PKF is more of punishing approaches than camping. Either way you must and will approach us. Then you get wrecked.



Get ***** Sheik/Zelda's

LMAO. I don't even know whether I should bother replying to this. You sound like a Lucas fanboy who can't accept how ****ty his character is. At least when I main Sheik, I know how bad she is. Seriously... Lucas can't get gimped by Sheik? LOL

I still stand by everything I said. As for your finisher statement, thank you for pointing out that they don't kill. That was a very astute observation on your part. What I was referring to was a finisher to an ftilt lock, which is a common thing done by Sheik's when they realize the opponent is nearing a situation when they can get out of the lock. Yes, the Sheik player does indeed know when you will be able to get out... surprise!

Sheik can't punish a dsmash by Lucas on a platform? Sheik can't outcamp Lucas? Lucas can rack massive damage versus Sheik reliably?

Dude, share some of that stuff man. You're smoking some high quality ****.

 

[~Nasty~]

6/4 Shiek.

55:45 Lucas concerning Zelda.

I agree

10chars

 

[LucasGrey]

OMG you guyz are now turning yourselves into babies acting like this.
There is no reason to treat each other this way and lets not forget who was invited here and that since we invited them to come they should respect us and we should respect them as well. There is no reason to show other people what are personalities are behind the controller or in this case behind their keyboards.

 

[-dMT-]

OMG you guyz are now turning yourselves into babies acting like this.
There is no reason to treat each other this way and lets not forget who was invited here and that since we invited them to come they should respect us and we should respect them as well. There is no reason to show other people what are personalities are behind the controller or in this case behind their keyboards.

Just saying. Chuee here isn't making any solid arguments. More like baseless comments, some of which are pretty funny. I'll apologize as a guest, but I really really found it difficult to take that last post seriously lol

I will also agree on 60-40 Sheik favor. As for Zelda, I'll pass the mic to the Zelda pros.

 

[Chuee]

Sheik isn't going to gimp lucas. You're acting like I can't angle PKT. You're acting like I can't tether. Oh, and Sheik has no way to force me to use PKT assuming I DI correctly.

Stop acting like a ****ing douche. Sheik can't punish a Dsmash on a platform. Everything gets shielded.
Lucas can rack damage on any character reliably. Dair does 20%, combos into jab ftilt utilt and dtilt and is perfectly safe on block. Nair does about 14% or so can combo into same as Dair except no dtilt if you try SDIng it. I never said Sheik can't outcamp lucas. ****ing **** lrn2read.

dMT MaNgA, stop being a dumb*** and acting like I'm so clueless.

 

[HelpR]

chuee. seriously. be quiet. you're humiliating yourself. DMT has brought up alot of evidence to back up his claims. He obviously knows the matchup.

If you PK thunder, you have to commit to the choice. unless you can auto cancel perfectly, you CAN be punished by it. Sheik can force a PK thunder just by grabbing the edge before you tether. When you pk thunder, sheik retethers the edge, after you pass the edge, sheik cna just wait, grab you (even if you do autocancel, you dont really have many options afterwards other then jab (which can be grabbed), jump (which you can be grabbed out of, and is risky as heck) and shield (which you can be grabbed.) And guess what. grabbing is like kryptonite for us.

Okay, you're on a platform, the sheik is below. how many options does lucas have?

A. go under the platform and uair
B. dsmash
C. do a nair of dair, the nair will cancel badly as will the dair.

A is the best option by far
B is the most common option, if the sheik reads this, it's a matter of: roll behind lucas, wait till 3rd hit, usmash. dead lucas.
C. okay, you hit sheik for minimal damage, then jab, 10% + whatever else you get.

sheik can easily jump up and uair, fair, and bair, she has when below people.

lucas CAN rack up damage on any character, but sheik's damage potential is much higher, and if sheik plays completely defensively, lucas is gonna have a hard time. Sheik can force us to approach, sheik can jump in and out quickly of bad spots, you're gonna get at most about 25% out of a combo. It's a bad matchup for us overall, but please dont degrade into endless streams of

'yuh huh we can'
'no you cant'

seriously dude. it makes us all look bad

 

[rPSIvysaur]

I'd prefer you guys to stop name calling in my thread please.

I think we all understand that this is a 60:40 MU for Sheik and I'm going to have it down as that. We know that we can DI their stuff up so we don't get gimped, just saying that calmly would have saved you alot of frustration. It was bit extreme saying that it you can easily gimp Lucas. As Tyr states in the OBR, M2K is only person who can consistently gimp his Lucas. IMO it's about as equal for gimping in this MU.

Anyway, this is a MU discussion so discuss it, don't defend any of the numbers, just state what things to do and what we can do against it.

Edit: Ninja'd

 

[-dMT-]

I'd prefer you guys to stop name calling in my thread please.

I think we all understand that this is a 60:40 MU for Sheik and I'm going to have it down as that. We know that we can DI their stuff up so we don't get gimped, just saying that calmly would have saved you alot of frustration. It was bit extreme saying that it you can easily gimp Lucas. As Tyr states in the OBR, M2K is only person who can consistently gimp his Lucas. IMO it's about as equal for gimping in this MU.

Anyway, this is a MU discussion so discuss it, don't defend any of the numbers, just state what things to do and what we can do against it.

Edit: Ninja'd

I wouldn't say it was equal when it comes to gimping, but I agree Lucas isn't an easy gimp. Definitely not impossible by far though lol

 

[Chuee]

chuee. seriously. be quiet. you're humiliating yourself. DMT has brought up alot of evidence to back up his claims. He obviously knows the matchup.

If you PK thunder, you have to commit to the choice. unless you can auto cancel perfectly, you CAN be punished by it. Sheik can force a PK thunder just by grabbing the edge before you tether. When you pk thunder, sheik retethers the edge, after you pass the edge, sheik cna just wait, grab you (even if you do autocancel, you dont really have many options afterwards other then jab (which can be grabbed), jump (which you can be grabbed out of, and is risky as heck) and shield (which you can be grabbed.) And guess what. grabbing is like kryptonite for us. You can't force us to PKT by just grabbing the ledge before we tether. Tether is pretty fast, and even without that our DJ can easily get us back to the stage.

Okay, you're on a platform, the sheik is below. how many options does lucas have? You use Dsmash on a platform to punish approaches, not when someone is under you.

A. go under the platform and uair
B. dsmash
C. do a nair of dair, the nair will cancel badly as will the dair.

A is the best option by far
B is the most common option, if the sheik reads this, it's a matter of: roll behind lucas, wait till 3rd hit, usmash. dead lucas.
C. okay, you hit sheik for minimal damage, then jab, 10% + whatever else you get.

sheik can easily jump up and uair, fair, and bair, she has when below people.

lucas CAN rack up damage on any character, but sheik's damage potential is much higher, and if sheik plays completely defensively, lucas is gonna have a hard time. Sheik can force us to approach, sheik can jump in and out quickly of bad spots, you're gonna get at most about 25% out of a combo. It's a bad matchup for us overall, but please dont degrade into endless streams of

'yuh huh we can'
'no you cant'

seriously dude. it makes us all look bad

Hardly anyone knows anything about low tiers besides their mains.
*Shrugs*

EDIT: True dat. Gimping lucas isn't impossible, but it will rarely ever happen. The best you can do is get an ***load of damage.

 

[Tyr_03]

lol I didn't realize Zelda mains went to tournaments. Does a matchup number even matter if nobody plays the character?

In any case, I will beat all of you mythical Zelda mains and prove my character better. Oh wait, I don't play wifi lolz. Get ***** Zelda.

Sheik's a pain. She can grab release to Ftilt. And she's like fast and stuff. Time a ledgegrab and punish her laggy Up B. She's really not very good at gimping Lucas. I dunno where people are getting that. Just don't be stupid. Seriously. I beat Ankoku the one time I played him in tournament but it was pretty hard. He's pretty good. Played pretty many friendlies with him too.

You guys are silly.

 

[rPSIvysaur]

I wouldn't say it was equal when it comes to gimping, but I agree Lucas isn't an easy gimp. Definitely not impossible by far though lol

I only said that b/c we're really good with not getting gimped unless you have something that is nearly an auto-gimp against Lucas (Gdubs moveset, Mario Cape, Meta-Knight's D-air/jumps, etc.)

Honestly, I have the most rediculous replay against a Pit where I was forced off the ledge several times, everytime w/o a double jump and I still made it back, be careful when talking about a recovery just like that. It's like saying that gimping Sheik is easy. I gimp about as many Sheiks as I'm gimped by them, which is very rare on both ends.

Anyway, we should avoid counting on the gimp in this MU b/c it's not going to be very often able to be used in the MU.

Edit: God**** everytime I post someone ninja's me.

 

[-dMT-]

Since this time we have some good points I'll try to clearly respond. Grab releasing Lucas near the edge forces him to fall too low to make it back with his DJ. That is the main situation I am referring too. At this point, Sheik being right near the edge, can quickly grab it, and thus effortlessly force the PKT2. Now the PKT2 is not easy to gimp. However Sheik dangling her chain will give Lucas problems. It is quite annoying to a recovering Lucas most of the time.


As for the dsmash on a platform; Yes if you use it when Sheik isn't under you and as a measure to prevent approaches from her it will almost always be safe. However, if the Sheik chooses not to attack she can simply avoid it and get to a better position by passing under you, and if you repeat, it becomes the situation that HelpR mentioned. If you do not repeat the dsmash, then the situation is again neutral and nothing has been accomplished. This dsmash camping only works vs Sheik when the Sheik tries to punish it head on, and in that regard it works very well. I've eaten my fair share of platform dsmashes.

 

[Tyr_03]

lol why is dsmash on a platform even being discussed? That's like saying Metaknight beats Snake because you might run into his Fsmash lol.

 

[-dMT-]

lol idk it was brought up, so I thought I'd clarify how little impact it has on the MU.

 

[rPSIvysaur]

Since this time we have some good points I'll try to clearly respond. Grab releasing Lucas near the edge forces him to fall too low to make it back with his DJ. That is the main situation I am referring too. At this point, Sheik being right near the edge, can quickly grab it, and thus effortlessly force the PKT2. Now the PKT2 is not easy to gimp. However Sheik dangling her chain will give Lucas problems. It is quite annoying to a recovering Lucas most of the time.


As for the dsmash on a platform; Yes if you use it when Sheik isn't under you and as a measure to prevent approaches from her it will almost always be safe. However, if the Sheik chooses not to attack she can simply avoid it and get to a better position by passing under you, and if you repeat, it becomes the situation that HelpR mentioned. If you do not repeat the dsmash, then the situation is again neutral and nothing has been accomplished. This dsmash camping only works vs Sheik when the Sheik tries to punish it head on, and in that regard it works very well. I've eaten my fair share of platform dsmashes.

Yes, it is irratating, but will on rare occasion gimp us. Which is what we've been saying so it's agreed that Sheik will be getting some damage on us if we go off ledge, but that can be said for alot of characters.

Anyway, what's going to be something we're going to want to look out from for Sheik, or what are our best options when we end up being combo'd?

 

[Chuee]

Of course it has no effect on the MU.
I'm just saying it's funny when they try to punish it with an Usmash or something and you shield it.
Just ask PF. I Dsmash camped his sheik.
EDIT: Things to look out for: Ftilt, Grab
How to get: Just try to DI out of the ftilt lock, though you'll most likely get grabbed. As for grabs try to air release.

 

[-dMT-]

Yes, it is irratating, but will on rare occasion gimp us. Which is what we've been saying so it's agreed that Sheik will be getting some damage on us if we go off ledge, but that can be said for alot of characters.

Anyway, what's going to be something we're going to want to look out from for Sheik, or what are our best options when we end up being combo'd?

I mentioned Sheik's general game plan on my long, first post.

Sheik is gonna force sloppy approaches from you guys with needles a lot. She is also going to look for that grab. No surprise here, since most MUs involve the opponent wanting to grab you guys I bet. Thing is though Sheik can keep you guys in a very long combo, stage permitting, once she gets that grab at early percents. DIing up is a must once she GR ftilt locks you guys. This way, if the Sheik goes too far with the lock you can jump right out and save yourselves a lot of damage. A patient Sheik will,and can, regrab before you get too high, and continue this, and as I mentioned, force you to the end of the stage.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Zelda is bottom tier garbage but this is in no way a hard counter MU lmao. There is nobody in this thread even mentioning WHY Lucas beats Zelda like frame data or anything. Do I need to remind you that Lucas is pretty garbage as well? lol.

Lucas can do two things that beat Zelda since she can't camp. He can poke, and he can approach her shield. His N-air properly applied is SAFE ON BLOCK. His F-air is also quite safe on block when used as a poke option. Zelda has no reliable approach or way to stop this, and since she can't camp, Lucas counters her. While Lucas can't camp, he's able to very very reliably force an approach from Zelda due to superior damage dealing options and defensive options in general.

Lucas isn't a particularly good character, but he has the tools to poke and pressure shields, which makes him better than simply garbage (and clearly better than Ness for that matter, who IS in fact a garbage character). Zelda however has no pokes, approaches, or reliable shield pressure, and other bottom tier qualities like an extremely bad recovery. Anyone who can poke without worrying about her camping will counter her.

I saw Tony last weekend at R3....he's OKAY at best.

Huh really? Did you say hi to him for me?

 

[orange/xd]

Shiek gimping Lucas?

A zap jump/wavezap will negate the small chance Shiek has of gimping him.

Lucas can gimp Shiek relatively easy, on the other hand. PK Thunder is amazing for gimps in general, and you could use PK Freeze to pressure them further. If they're at a relatively close distance, the Lucas can hang on the edge, preventing her from using SideB right away, then use PK Thunder whilst predicting where they will reappear, or before they use it. If they UpB above the stage for some reason, Lucas can punish with an Uair or pivot grab.

As for camping, neither can really camp each other effectively. It's not like needles will automatically hit Lucas like some Shieks are making it sound like. There's this thing called shielding, they could do it and magically avoid and predict needles! Wow!

I personally think Lucas v. Shiek is 60:40 Shiek's favor.

Lucas v. Zelda is probably 55:45 Lucas's favor, it's debatable that it's even 60:40.

Also Shiek/Zelda mains are being pretty **** arrogant and ignorant, please act more mature.

 

[lil cj]

This sort of thing happens all the time when we have a discussion about Zelda
Since both Lucas and Zelda are bad, one doesnt want to be worst than the other I guess
And of course the Sheik mains are going to back up their character too, but she has her flaws too.
Zelda does have more unwinnable matchups than Lucas though.
We only have one...SNAKE
The others are manageable, even MK.
Zelda is very predictable, she has no element of surprise, shes mostly a defensive character.
Sheik on the other hand is pretty good and her fair,ftilt,grab, and needles is what makes her good.
I use all three characters, so I know lol.
But mostly everything about this MU was said already so...

vs Zelda:55-45 Lucas' favor
vs Sheik:60-40 Sheik's favor

 

[orange/xd]

What about CPs? Where do we take Zelda/Shiek and vice versa?

 

[rPSIvysaur]

Yeah, I really feel like we have the MU down pretty well. So now it's time for stage discussion.

 

[Chuee]

Zelda: Brinstar
Sheik: Brinstar
Done

 

[rPSIvysaur]

Ban, Strike, CP...
What if they ban Brinstar?

 

[Chuee]

Declare brinstar unbannable.

 

[-dMT-]

The only real solid CP against Zelda/Sheik is Frigate, but they will often ban that stage. Zelda also doesn't like Halberd and Delfino from what I know, but Sheik does perfectly fine on all other stages.

In the end I think it boils down to you guys picking a stage where Lucas does much better and where you feel comfortable. I think Sheik does better on the neutrals vs Lucas though so I would suggest avoiding the neutrals.

Generally the best CP I've had a Lucas use against me was Brinstar.

 

[-Mars-]

lol I didn't realize Zelda mains went to tournaments. Does a matchup number even matter if nobody plays the character?

In any case, I will beat all of you mythical Zelda mains and prove my character better. Oh wait, I don't play wifi lolz. Get ***** Zelda.

Sheik's a pain. She can grab release to Ftilt. And she's like fast and stuff. Time a ledgegrab and punish her laggy Up B. She's really not very good at gimping Lucas. I dunno where people are getting that. Just don't be stupid. Seriously. I beat Ankoku the one time I played him in tournament but it was pretty hard. He's pretty good. Played pretty many friendlies with him too.

You guys are silly.

Well judging from this: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=165954 they go more often then Lucas players do. LMFAO, Get ***** Lucas.

Sheik's up b can auto cancel, needles can steal Lucas' DJ if she uses dsmash and forces him on a downward trajectory, and even Ankoku would tell you that he isn't anywhere near a high level player. Think that covers this ridiculuos post.

Anyways, i'll cover the rest of these humorous posts later after i eat.

Edit: Oh and Marth ***** the **** out of Lucas......how do you guys not even know you're own character?

 

[-dMT-]

I realize how... offensive... us Sheik's and Zelda's may seem here, what with our seemingly aggressive debate, but I've participated in the discussing of the Sheik MU on many threads for different characters. Most of the time I've had my ideas respected, and intelligently debated against.

The Lucas MU is one I am forced to know quite well since its a MU I play very often, and I am confident in what I have gathered.

The amount of resistance, and even baseless arguments that are seemingly more focused on a denial of the fact that Lucas' aptitude in Brawl isn't particularly something one would call good than on an intelligent debate on what each character has versus the other, and what techniques are shut down, if any, are what make it difficult to effectively discuss here.

Such atmosphere on this thread leads to friction.

Orange, Sheik can camp Lucas very effectively. The idea behind camping isn't often actually hitting the opponent with the projectile, but forcing an approach. Approaches are something Lucas is particularly weak at. His nair is safe on block, but upon being blocked it also does not lead into anything at all really. Sheik also has the mobility to get right back out of Lucas' range and force another approach. This is the camping that Lucas cannot do vs Sheik. Considering how bad Lucas will get punished for getting grabbed, and how ineffective his own grab is most of the time, he literally is at a disadvantage in many situations. I will admit his aerials have greater priority than Sheik's though.

Sheik isn't as easy to gimp as you may think. She can negate the pk thunder effortlessly with an aerial unless the Lucas does some really unorthodox tricks to make it unpredictable. Her vanish can also indeed be autocancelled.

lil CJ, Mars has a point. I really think you guys are greatly mistaken if you don't consider Marth to be a rather huge threat against Lucas.