The Lucas Boards' MU Thread - Discussing: Sonic

[Chuee]

BF is an amazing stage for us against IC.
We can safely absorb blizzard and we can completely avoid IB.

 

[~Nasty~]

That is pretty cool.

Also, Lucas with a stock lead on Battlefield is close to GOOD GAME. Actually overall killing Nana and not actively killing Popo works pretty well. I showed Phoenix Alpha some of that and he was impressed.

Me and my friends call this method the KNLP (Kill Nana, Leave Popo). It works wonderfully. If you can kill Nana, just camp popo's ***... he can't do much w/ out his b*tch.

BF is an amazing stage for us against IC.
We can safely absorb blizzard and we can completely avoid IB.

I played GIMR in tourney. First round on BF, i followed my KNLP method and it worked great.

Last stock was too close though:
He was hit off BF to the right, Nana fell low and Popo flew high. She died, leaving him forced to sideB back to the stage where he met my fully charged Usmash. He died just above 100%... i was at 172% >.<


Side Note: In spanish, Popo means poop... hence why KNLP works.

 

[rPSIvysaur]

Alright, I think we get the the MU part. But with Hylian coming in, what should we make the MU ratio? 50:50 or 45:55 or 55:45?

Anyways, stage discussion.
Obviously BF is ****, but what other stages will do good against them? I assume those Metroid stages will do good, but how well will we camp them and how will we utilize them better than we would on BF?

 

[lil cj]

RC might be a good stage against ICs b/c its constantly moving and theres too much going on for them to CG you

 

[Chuee]

I don't like RC.
I'd say 50-50
Oh, and PSI make sure to include the last line of Nasty's post in the MU summary :D

 

[orange/xd]

i think it's 50:50

 

[~Nasty~]

I don't like RC.
I'd say 50-50
Oh, and PSI make sure to include the last line of Nasty's post in the MU summary :D

lmao... thanks chuee.

 

[rPSIvysaur]

Does anyone have anything left to say or can I wrap IC's up?

 

[Chuee]

Nope, lets move on.

 

[orange/xd]

Hooray, Zelda's next.

 

[~Pink Fresh~]

we win. by alot lol

 

[HelpR]

i'd agree. shut down range options for her with magnet, close up she's forced to play extremely smart to not get wrecked. Considering sheik and zelda are 2 halves of the same coin, i honestly think sheik is a good bit harder, particularly since a good sheik knows to GRDACUS, so it's rather moot to try and fight lucas as zelda.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Why discuss Zelda? Zelda is bottom tier garbage that can't do anything, while Lucas is a decent character who has the tools to be competitively useful. Take Yoshi but make him even worse at camping, you have Zelda. Especially since her garbage camping is no longer even remotely viable against Lucas, this is an 8/2 matchup in Lucas's favor. The most you'll see from Zelda should normally be her use as a KO move in Sheik's place (which is iffy too). One thing that I think is worth knowing is that your F-smash is more disjointed than hers, so you are able to hit her hands while she F-smashes. Otherwise the most Zelda can do is try to approach with N-air or Naryu's love and hope you get hit by random smashes. Everything Zelda does relies on you getting hit by whatever she throws out.

Sheik on the other hand is a character I play against a lot (as one of my friends is a legit Sheik main), and she is reeeeeealy stupid. She's really good at camping, zoning, and punishing. Her spacing game is STUPIDLY good too.

Once I get back to college, I'll try this matchup as Lucas and give a ratio, although I think it's likely 6/4 Sheik. She's a much better character at camping and punishing, and from what I can tell, I can't see Lucas being particularly good at punishing her mediocre recovery.

 

[Tokaio]

The Zelda in my region just camps with Din's, once I approach her, she tries to stop it with Smashes. D-smash is surprisingly quick. Usually they go D-tilt to D-smash. Watch out for U-smash. It's probably her best kill move.
We can force to approach her because of the PSI magnet. Don't use the PSI when she's too close. She can just use it as a bait, and punish you with some other move. Watch out for Din's fire off stage. I think that it can eat our PKT. So try to zap jump to recover (as always).
PKF should be safe to use. As long as you're not too close. If she reflects it, I don't think it can reach you.
I would think it would be...65:35/60:40 Zelda boards say it's 50:50. Interesting lol.

 

[HelpR]

din's fire off stage: I dont know about you, but almost every time that I had din's fire used off stage on me as lucas, I was hit with it as well, there was never a point that they both clanged for me. Granted, while din's fire has incredibly low priority, it's hitbox is massive, especially at far range. I doubt there will ever be a situation where the lucas will be forced to use PKT2 at a range where din's fire wouldnt be too massive to eat it and hit the lucas, especially considering that if the zelda was that close to the lucas, tethering would honestly have been an infinitely better option as opposed to PKT.

Granted, it is very possible to do a din's fire gimp on lucas, but it hardly seems feasible.

On the note of changing to zelda from sheik that was brought up earlier, in this particular matchup zelda fails so utterly due to that the fact sheik has a guaranteed DACUS out of grab release, which easily kills at 100. if it wasnt for the grab release shenanigans and the GRDACUS, the matchup would be somewhat in lucas' favor, nowhere near as much as zelda's is however.

This matchup is easily 60-40 - 70-30 in lucas' favor, if the lucas is willing to camp. however, if the lucas does not play a long range pressure game, this matchup becomes much more even. And really guys, we have psi magnet cancel there is no downside to absorbing in this matchup, except for perhaps in doubles, there really is no risk in hanging back.

 

[~Pink Fresh~]

Why are you offstage v Zelda LOL.

Dude, the MU is ridiculously easy mode.

Sheik wrecks us though.

 

[ZMan]

mostly watch out for grab release and ftilt and needle camping against shiek. idk last time i fought a shiek was may 08 where i won the set cause he sd'd needle charging.

 

[HelpR]

I just looked at the list, apparently we're discussing sheik about 10 characters later, but I guess we cant avoid discussing sheik if we're discussing zelda... after all, she's just a down B away.

 

[Chuee]

lol Zelda.
Force her to approach
Punish her approaches
Force her to use up-B offstage
Punish her up-b
Fake a PKF to get her to naryu.

This MU is fairly easy. Just watch out for her at close range, her close range game is insane.
At least 60-40 lucas


Sheik.
She outcamps us.
She forces us to PKT offstage.
She can ftilt out of grab release
Dsmash platform camping works surprisingly well against her.
We can sorta gimp her offstage.

This is 60-40 sheik

 

[orange/xd]

you can try to lure her into using din's by going offstage, then magnet and heal! :D

 

[A2ZOMG]

Dsmash platform camping works surprisingly well against her.

This is 60-40 sheik

LOL D-smash platform camping. Too fun against tall characters. Even better since most of Sheik's spacing game is vertical.

****, 60/40? Man, that's what I thought.

 

[HelpR]

if you're gonna do that, you might wanna be careful with which stages you do it on. sheik's strong stage is battlefield, as her usmash tippers when she's on the ground on the enemy is on the platform.

boo, death at 100%

 

[Chuee]

You can shield the Usmash and SH Dair to punish.

 

[HelpR]

my point is, that it isnt worth it to risk a sweet spotted usmash just to try and get a dsmash off on sheik. granted, you can shield and punish it, but it seems a tad risky to even try it, though a bait is always nice

 

[HailCrest]

you can try to lure her into using din's by going offstage, then magnet and heal! :D

if the zelda's a cpu. .-.

in all honesty if the zelda knows lucas well enough s/he would know that lucas has magnet pull as a recovery option which >>>>>> din's fire. there's also wavezap to magnet but that isn't used often because of the risk of screwing up. the zelda should only start din's fire when they hear PEEKAY THANDAAH, in which case the lucas is screwed.

heck, if the lucas were in a position where din's fire would get big enough to hit, they should get hit. recovering low is key in this matchup. if you're in a position where you're forced to get hit by din's fire (low /and/ far away from the stage), get hit, DI upwards, try not to die, DI towards the stage and recover low, magnet pull if you can.

 

[Chuee]

my point is, that it isnt worth it to risk a sweet spotted usmash just to try and get a dsmash off on sheik. granted, you can shield and punish it, but it seems a tad risky to even try it, though a bait is always nice

There's no way sheik can punish the Dsmash.

 

[HailCrest]

can sheik be hit by the first hit of dsmash when she's under the platform on the halberd (ship)?

 

[rPSIvysaur]

Hey guys, sorry I didn't update the OP I was out of town. The MU summary for IC's will be up pretty soon.

 

[lil cj]

Its all good Rocket...welcome back
We should do ZSS next
I know about that matchup

 

[LucasGrey]

i use zss so i know it too :D.
Well atleast from a zss' perpective.

 

[rPSIvysaur]

All right ZSS can be next

Anyway, back to the MU.

I want some more in depth stuff on Sheik and how to avoid all of her combos and what not.

Anyway, I don't care if it's Sheik, I'll still camp her.

 

[WickedDeceit]

I think you guys underestimate Zelda, hence why the Zelda boards have this MU 50:50.

A good Zelda isn't going to camp and throw Din's fire. Lucas is easily baited and punished, and his ground options against Zelda are so-so. If you have to approach her on the ground, Nair to jab is your best option. Zelda's Utilt beats your Dair and Fair, and Bair is difficult to setup against a grounded Zelda. I'm only talking about ground approaches here because a good Zelda won't be in the air that much anyways. Your Dair beats her Usmash when timed correctly though so when recovering from above bait this and punish.

As mentioned before, your Fsmash has a little bit more range than hers, and most Zeldas love to spam Fsmash (even when out of range). Bait this and whack her fingernails. If she runs at you, Ftilt is your best option. Dsmash against a Zelda who approaches from the air ***** her, but any good Zelda won't get killed by Usmash (she'll bait and attempt to punish it's cooldown with a LK).

If she's recovering from off stage, she'll try to sweetspot the ledge. Ledge hog with your tether for an easy gimp. Your best kill options in this MU are Fsmash (roll behind her and swing), Bthrow (near the edge), and Usmash if she's stupid.

Lucas's biggest problem in the match up are all of his smashes are easily telegraphed. If she expects a Fsmash she'll fast-fall a Nair on your head. If she expects a Dsmash, it's easily punished because it leaves your entire body open. Usmash is so easily avoidable, we love to jump over your head, bait it, and punish accordingly. My best advice to you would be don't charge your smashes, space with PKfire (as usual), use tilts more than smashes, and don't underestimate her.

BTW I main Zelda and my best friend mains Lucas so I know this match up fairly well. Hope this helps.

 

[rPSIvysaur]

Yes, but a good Lucas will be camping Zelda. Therefore, Zelda has to approach. When you look at Zelda's approaching options, they're pretty horrible. We don't even have to hold up magnet to camp Zelda so it will be incredibly hard to bait a magnet from Lucas b/c it's magnetable on reaction.

Our d-air to d-tilt lock is not telegraphed, and also, Lucas isn't going to have to approach to land a kill move, he's going to be punishing Zelda's poor approaches. It's really sad MU if you just camp.

Edit: I'm not trying to bash your post. There's some really good stuff in it, such as the u-tilt stuff.

 

[GreyFox86]

Yes, but a good Lucas will be camping Zelda. Therefore, Zelda has to approach. When you look at Zelda's approaching options, they're pretty horrible. We don't even have to hold up magnet to camp Zelda so it will be incredibly hard to bait a magnet from Lucas b/c it's magnetable on reaction.

Our d-air to d-tilt lock is not telegraphed, and also, Lucas isn't going to have to approach to land a kill move, he's going to be punishing Zelda's poor approaches. It's really sad MU if you just camp.

Edit: I'm not trying to bash your post. There's some really good stuff in it, such as the u-tilt stuff.

We don't have to approach if we have the lead in percentage. Also we can always run then shield if we feel that there's gonna be an attack coming from the opposite end. Yes I agree that we have nothing when it comes to approaching, but we can always improvise and I believe that we have better options OoS than Lucas does.

If your in the air, depending on where you are, we can see what your going to do. SH Fair and SH Nair is about the only thing that can and should be mixed up.

 

[-dMT-]

I'll come in for the Sheik half of it.

Right off the bat, Lucas is not camping Sheik. Anyone who thinks they can camp even a half-decent Sheik with Lucas is greatly mistaken.

Sheik is a monster in racking damage close range, and also quite adept at it at long range (Needle storm fresh is 18% fully charged, hence the camping.) Usually Sheik has to watch her spacing very closely to keep herself safe, but in the case of Lucas more often than not Sheik can safely pressure his shield, since a shield grab is not a thing to worry about and Lucas doesn't really have any OoS option that will end Sheik's onslaught.

Some things Sheik will do:

- Camp needles to force Lucas to approach. Lucas can be punished for almost all of his approaches easily by Sheik, save for a few that work quite well for you guys that i will mention later on.
- Look for a grab > ground break GR into Ftilt lock > regrab/ finisher. Finisher will either be a utilt, fair, or nair generally. If she gets the regrab, expect another grab release ground break forced at percents under 90-100%. This leads to A LOT of damage.
- At higher %s, a grab from Sheik will usually mean forcing air breaks after maybe 1 pummel just for extra damage, and dashing in to regrab. This is true versus Lucas at high percents, and essentially guarantees getting Lucas to the edge of the stage, upon which the Sheik forces one last air break letting Lucas free fall down. This leads to the gimping routine:
- Sheik can easily force a PKT2 recovery from here by simply grabbing the edge. Once Lucas starts the PKT2 animation, a smart Sheik will know not to try to interrupt, but to get right back on the stage near the edge, and let out the chain. The chain DOES indeed stop the PKT2 Lucas from grabbing the edge much more often than not, and after dealing a decent amount of damage, it lets Lucas freefall to attemp another PKT2 and often in a bad position, while Sheik is safely waggling her chain. This often continues until the Lucas is too far down or somehow in a bad position in an attempt to DI out of the Chain hits, at which point the Sheik would finish the gimp by simply hogging the edge.

Yes, Sheik can be very troublesome. However, this is pretty much, alongside the GR-DACUS, her only way of reliably killing, if that.


Now for Lucas. His approaches are usually something to laugh at as Sheik, except for that dreaded dair. A FH Dair can be very annoying, and has always given me the most pressure by far out of any of Lucas' approaches. There's also the very important setup into a usmash kill that it provides with dair > dtilt > usmash. This will get you kills vs Sheik very often near the 100% mark, since that specific combo doesn't seem to work at lower percents, but at least the usmash makes for a guaranteed kill at such high percents.

The problem with Lucas is racking up that damage. Once the Sheik figures out that it has to wait a bit and escape your shield pressure shenanigans at specific times, it becomes very hard for Lucas to rack damage.

When it comes to gimping, Lucas cannot easily gimp Sheik. he also doesn't have anything reliable as a setup. It mainly boils down to skillful use of the PK Thunder, since Sheik can simply fair an obvious one coming right at her.

Sheik, on the other hand, is quite adept at racking damage and Lucas is definitely no exception. Also, since one of Sheik's rather reliable ways of getting a stock off Lucas is through gimps and since her main tool in accomplishing it - the chain - doesn't vary much in how it works based on opponent's damage, this can lead to very early kills on Lucas.

This puts the Sheik vs Lucas MU at about a 70-30 Sheik favor.

I used to effectively dual main both Sheik and Zelda, though admittedly I have favored Sheik much more lately. I don't recall using Zelda much at all vs Lucas, so I won't be able to share much on that half of the MU, but trusting the Zelda boards' verdict being 50-50 and some sound arguments, I can easily say this MU is one of the difficult ones for Lucas.

 

[-Mars-]

we win. by alot lol

Hell no.

i'd agree. shut down range options for her with magnet, close up she's forced to play extremely smart to not get wrecked. Considering sheik and zelda are 2 halves of the same coin, i honestly think sheik is a good bit harder, particularly since a good sheik knows to GRDACUS, so it's rather moot to try and fight lucas as zelda.

Magnet doesn't do **** as I don't use dins fire much anyways. Lucas isn't hard at all as Zelda it's nearly an even matchup Lucas gets wrecked by dtilt.

Why discuss Zelda? Zelda is bottom tier garbage that can't do anything, while Lucas is a decent character who has the tools to be competitively useful. Take Yoshi but make him even worse at camping, you have Zelda. Especially since her garbage camping is no longer even remotely viable against Lucas, this is an 8/2 matchup in Lucas's favor. The most you'll see from Zelda should normally be her use as a KO move in Sheik's place (which is iffy too). One thing that I think is worth knowing is that your F-smash is more disjointed than hers, so you are able to hit her hands while she F-smashes. Otherwise the most Zelda can do is try to approach with N-air or Naryu's love and hope you get hit by random smashes. Everything Zelda does relies on you getting hit by whatever she throws out.

Sheik on the other hand is a character I play against a lot (as one of my friends is a legit Sheik main), and she is reeeeeealy stupid. She's really good at camping, zoning, and punishing. Her spacing game is STUPIDLY good too.

Once I get back to college, I'll try this matchup as Lucas and give a ratio, although I think it's likely 6/4 Sheik. She's a much better character at camping and punishing, and from what I can tell, I can't see Lucas being particularly good at punishing her mediocre recovery.

Zelda is bottom tier garbage but this is in no way a hard counter MU lmao. There is nobody in this thread even mentioning WHY Lucas beats Zelda like frame data or anything. Do I need to remind you that Lucas is pretty garbage as well? lol.

I saw Tony last weekend at R3....he's OKAY at best.

din's fire off stage: I dont know about you, but almost every time that I had din's fire used off stage on me as lucas, I was hit with it as well, there was never a point that they both clanged for me. Granted, while din's fire has incredibly low priority, it's hitbox is massive, especially at far range. I doubt there will ever be a situation where the lucas will be forced to use PKT2 at a range where din's fire wouldnt be too massive to eat it and hit the lucas, especially considering that if the zelda was that close to the lucas, tethering would honestly have been an infinitely better option as opposed to PKT.

Granted, it is very possible to do a din's fire gimp on lucas, but it hardly seems feasible.

On the note of changing to zelda from sheik that was brought up earlier, in this particular matchup zelda fails so utterly due to that the fact sheik has a guaranteed DACUS out of grab release, which easily kills at 100. if it wasnt for the grab release shenanigans and the GRDACUS, the matchup would be somewhat in lucas' favor, nowhere near as much as zelda's is however.

This matchup is easily 60-40 - 70-30 in lucas' favor, if the lucas is willing to camp. however, if the lucas does not play a long range pressure game, this matchup becomes much more even. And really guys, we have psi magnet cancel there is no downside to absorbing in this matchup, except for perhaps in doubles, there really is no risk in hanging back.

How does Lucas go about playing a long range pressure game if I just stand there? lol.

There's no way sheik can punish the Dsmash.

Yes there is.

All right ZSS can be next

Anyway, back to the MU.

I want some more in depth stuff on Sheik and how to avoid all of her combos and what not.

Anyway, I don't care if it's Sheik, I'll still camp her.

How the hell do you camp Sheik? Nobody really can camp Sheik in this game.
Even characters with GOOD camping games like Diddy and Tink.

Yes, but a good Lucas will be camping Zelda. Therefore, Zelda has to approach. When you look at Zelda's approaching options, they're pretty horrible. We don't even have to hold up magnet to camp Zelda so it will be incredibly hard to bait a magnet from Lucas b/c it's magnetable on reaction.

Our d-air to d-tilt lock is not telegraphed, and also, Lucas isn't going to have to approach to land a kill move, he's going to be punishing Zelda's poor approaches. It's really sad MU if you just camp.

Edit: I'm not trying to bash your post. There's some really good stuff in it, such as the u-tilt stuff.

Why does Zelda have to approach? If I have a lead i'm going to just stand there. Like really I can't see Lucas having a fantastic camping game if I just sit there.

Edit: DMTManga made a good post with ACTUAL information in it unlike the rest of this garbage lol. Although I don't think Sheik beats Lucas that bad tbh.

 

[LucasGrey]

Why does Zelda have to approach? If I have a lead i'm going to just stand there. Like really I can't see Lucas having a fantastic camping game if I just sit there.

The magnet. It is all about the magnet.you use your fire and if she fireballs magnet. Without the Fireball she really has to approach cause she has nothing more. Plus range on pkfire is pretty far especially whenthe lucas bsticks plus if you are bsticking you'll never get hit by your own pk fire because of you bounce back. Plus when you think about it approaching makes you punishable people make mistakes when they approach gonna use ganon as an example bu he gets owned because he has to approach and in this match zelda has to approach.

 

[GreyFox86]

We don't have to aim the Din's at you. Use it to make you bait it, then punish accordingly.

 

[Chuee]

We don't have to approach if we have the lead in percentage. Also we can always run then shield if we feel that there's gonna be an attack coming from the opposite end. Yes I agree that we have nothing when it comes to approaching, but we can always improvise and I believe that we have better options OoS than Lucas does.

If your in the air, depending on where you are, we can see what your going to do. SH Fair and SH Nair is about the only thing that can and should be mixed up.

We can bait you into using Naryu and retreat and Fair. Start camping again. Also Zelda's run speed isn't too great. I doubt it really matters who has better OOS options since both characters have moves extremely safe on block.

We can FH Dair too.

 

[-dMT-]

Edit: DMTManga made a good post with ACTUAL information in it unlike the rest of this garbage lol. Although I don't think Sheik beats Lucas that bad tbh.

lol. Cmon, you should know me by now Mars. I often sway things abit more Sheik's way in these MU discussions. Just take what I said, sway it in the character-in-discussion's way ac% and you have what's probably the final verdict to be:

Sheik Favor: 60-40

EDIT: You guys keep mentioning baiting things from Zelda. Isn't that a bit presumptuous. What RELIABLE ways of dealing damage does Lucas have vs Zelda? That's the question to ask. Mindgames are mindgames, and have no solid place in MU discussions.
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