The Lucas Boards' MU Thread - Discussing: Sonic

[ZMan]

when lucas grabs wario his feet touch the ground, thus we can't force an air release.

when snake grabs wario, his feet AREN'T touching the ground, so snake forces the air release.

i though this was just common knowledge.

 

[Tokaio]

Wait, so if we grab him and he's off the ledge, do we have a guaranteed Bair spike?

 

[~Nasty~]

@zman... hey, even i can be a noob sometimes. lol

 

[orange/xd]

Lucas's air game may not be the best but it's better than Wario's.

Oh my god

no no no

Wario has an amazing air game.

 

[DMG]

Air Release Bair might be guaranteed for Lucas. Even if you could pull it off though, I would SDI it and tech the stage.

I rarely die to spikes.

 

[PhoenixAlpha]

Air Release Bair might be guaranteed for Lucas. Even if you could pull it off though, I would SDI it and tech the stage.

I rarely die to spikes.

Okay, so we divide the matchups...

vs Wario: 40 : 60
vs Wario with percent lead: 90 : 10
vs DMG with percent lead (because he'll have the percent lead): 115 : suck


DMG: does Lucas get away with Uairs this matchup? I get the feeling it would be useful due to it's decent priority.

 

[rPSIvysaur]

Air Release Bair might be guaranteed for Lucas. Even if you could pull it off though, I would SDI it and tech the stage.

I rarely die to spikes.

Lucas B-air spikes don't send the opponet straight down, but diagnally away from the stage. Have you tried to SDI it and tech it, because that makes me wonder...

 

[DMG]

From grab release on the very edge of most stages, I can SDI and tech Lucas' Bair. Trust me. I can get hit by G&W's Usmash near the edge of FD (assuming I am at least slightly in the air), SDI down and further under the lip, and then tech it even at retardedly high %'s. Ask UTD Zac, he's the person I did it to.

For attacks that are telegraphed far in advance, they are much easier to SDI/tech, assuming that you clearly understand the trajectory/positioning and what specific SDI inputs you need to use to get to where you need. For something like Lucas's Bair, it's hard in that you have to SDI further than normal, but spike wise it's slightly easier to tech.

 

[HailCrest]

From grab release on the very edge of most stages, I can SDI and tech Lucas' Bair. Trust me. I can get hit by G&W's Usmash near the edge of FD (assuming I am at least slightly in the air), SDI down and further under the lip, and then tech it even at retardedly high %'s. Ask UTD Zac, he's the person I did it to.

For attacks that are telegraphed far in advance, they are much easier to SDI/tech, assuming that you clearly understand the trajectory/positioning and what specific SDI inputs you need to use to get to where you need. For something like Lucas's Bair, it's hard in that you have to SDI further than normal, but spike wise it's slightly easier to tech.

Sounds very sexy. Video?

Lucas B-air spikes don't send the opponet straight down, but diagnally away from the stage. Have you tried to SDI it and tech it, because that makes me wonder...

It can send probably like 25-30 degrees away or toward the stage depending on DI, it can go straight down as well.

 

[DMG]

I don't have a video of that specific tech, however Im sure me and Zac can duplicate it and post that (unless you meant recording SDI tech Lucas Bair. In that case, no I don't have a video for that either but I can make one).

 

[Wild ARMs]

At least we now have someone to sympathize with.
Both our characters suffer from stupid grab release crap... >.<

@cloudenvy: ...Wait, what?
Our air game <<<<<<<<< Their air game
We do NOT want to challenge an airborne wario, at least not with our air game.

Oh, how applicable is PKF in this match? I tend to overuse it, (Still can't break that habit.) and I want to know just how punishable it is.

EDIT: Just read DMG's post from two pages ago. Sorry. >_>

 

[rPSIvysaur]

I assume I'm stuck with interpreting the frame data -_-

 

[Wild ARMs]

Poor rocket.
I can't imagine having to compare all the frame data for two seperate characters.

 

[rPSIvysaur]

IKR

 

[rPSIvysaur]

Wario Punishment

Aerials - Laugh at yourself for whiffing a punish

Jab 1 - Hold shield up
Jab 2 - D-air
Dash Attack - U-smash
F-tilt - D-air
D-tilt - F-smash
U-tilt - F-smash (Near frame perfect)
F-smash - D-smash (I would suggest sheild grab though b/c of pushback)
D-smash - U-smash
U-smash - F-smash

Side-B - Hit him off :3
Up-B - Sheild and Punish Landing
Down-B - No info
Neutral-B - F-smash when he closes his mouth

Stage Discussion!

 

[Chuee]

Yay we can go onto a different character now.

 

[rPSIvysaur]

Strike: BF, Lylat
CP: Final Destination, Japes? (How does Wario do on Japes?)
Ban: Battlefield or Norfair?

What do you guys think?

 

[Tokaio]

I dunno...Wario doesn't have any bad stages. Stage strikes sound right...I dunno about CP's. JJ is a pretty good stage for Wario. It's hard to get a U-air kill for him on this stage. He can work around with alot of edges on this stage.
Bans...I wouldn't ban Norfair. Now that I think of it...it could be a pretty good CP if it's legal =/.
I would ban RC or Frigate.

 

[rPSIvysaur]

Alright, I have little to no Wario experience... -_-

 

[lil cj]

Can we do Olimar or Ice Climbers next?

 

[Chuee]

Lets do Olimar.

 

[rPSIvysaur]

Olimar

I'll update the OP later after I play pictionary in the Disco Room

 

[HailCrest]

yay lolimar

- pay attention to which pikmin is next in line and play accordingly. blue = f/bthrow = stay out of grabbing range. red = aerials = spacing. purple = uthrow/u/dsmash = holy crap you'll die from either of these at 130%. yellow has high priority and dramatically large sweetspots. white has low KO potential, so don't worry when your damage is already high; only time to look out for them is when you're low on damage and loli needs some damage rackin'.

- white pikmin have the longest grab range and can rack up damage really fast, and are probably the best pummel in the game. if one is latched onto you, quickly get it off with a jab or two.

- yellow pikmin are immune to PSI and can't be gotten off with nair. jab will, though.

- edgehogging kills ('cept on norfair)

- watch out if loli throws yellows at pk thunder when recovering. yellow pikmins' range are all very disjointed as well, and could hit while recovering with tether

 

[Tokaio]

We still haven't finished Wario yet...I was thinking actually of..
Stage Strike: Battlefield, Lylat
Counterpick: Norfair, PS2 (unfortunately usually these are illegal)
Ban: RC, Frigate

 

[rPSIvysaur]

All right Olimar discussion starts now!

 

[ZMan]

ah yes, captain lolimar. lolimar is one of those characters that learning the matchup is crucial otherwise you're gonna get plundered in tourny by a lolimar. some things ive learned-

jab and nair are the most effective moves in getting pikmin off of you as your not gonna need them for killing. reflecting pikmin back at him is a good idea if he isn't excpecting it plus your fsmash won't stale. when lolimar is recovering and he has >4 pikmin he's gonna throw them as he gets more of a boost from his upb without them. downb and pikmin pluck have super armor incase anyone didn't know.

 

[Chuee]

There are 3 things you can do against his pikmin toss.
1. You can Nair them while they're latched onto you.
2. Dsmash them when they're on you or when he throws them but keep in mind it stalls your Dsmash.
3. PKF them when he throws them, Reds will survive this others won't.
There are others that work like dtilt and jab but I like these.

Sooner or later you're going to have to approach him. Nair and Fair will get pivot grabbed. As for Dair i think his usmash clanks with it or something. If he grabs you at low%, you're gonna get about 30-40%. All of them except purples will combo into another grab and then an Usmash.

Once you get inside him jab and ftilt work well since they're fast. Olimar's Fsmash outranges us. I don't think purples will though. Getting utilts at low% leads to an Uair or Nair since Olimar's dair isn't that great. If he gets you above him use Dair.

When he's offstage, DON'T use PKT onless he only has 2-3 pikmin. You'll only give a free way back. His tether with full pikmin is long and comes out fast. His whistle will also beat out anything you try to throw at him. Try to predict the whistle and punish. If he's far enough out that he still isn't onstage with his DJ go for the ledgegrab. If you're at high% time your edgegrab so that he'll go for the tether when you still have invincibility frames or when you go for a ledge attack so that he'll die and you won't either. If you're at low% you really shouldn't worry about it unless you don't won't small damage. If you're offstage watch out for his Fsmash, it has amazing range and it goes off the stage. If you're not careful you'll be using PKT and get extra damage.

Olimar is pretty light so Fsmash kills him early, and you can get Dair dtilt locks early. Olimar's main kill move is Usmash. If you're at kill% WATCH HIS PIKMIN ORDER. It really helps you predict when he will go for an Usmash or Fsmash. Purples kill REALLY early so watch out for those. Purple fsmash range isn't that great so stay out of it's range in kill%.

Some of the different pikmin colors may beat our Fair with theirs. I think our Dair beats their Uair. Our Uair >his Dair.


My Ratio 45-55 or 40-60
Use Nair, PKF, Dsmash on pikmin.
Don't approach with Nair or Fair, you get pivot grabbed.
Space your Dair when approaching
At close range use jab
get him above you for an Uair
Don't use PKT when he's offstage unless his pikmin count is low.

 

[IcyLight]

generally you don't need to worry so much about olimars sideb unless he has a white next. let me rephrase though, we as oli players don't pay attention when we are sidebing unless it's a white or purple, in which we generally ALWAYS get the snipe from the white, and the purple is a great combo starter for us. try not to knock pikmin off you if we are generally close, when you attack pikmin the hitbox for your attacks is extended and we run up and grab you during the lag

I'd be more worried about throws at high %, they are generally easier for us to pull off.

usmash from purple on lucas probably kills you ~85-90 if fully fresh, which is often because our sideb refreshes our stale moves

we can utilt you out of your nair, so be wary if you are going to approach with this.

if you see us grab you with a yellow, if we throw with a yellow you have no hit stun so you can immediately attack us before you get thrown away, such as ganons upb when it grabs you.

dair--jab works really well on oli, and as chu said try to focus on jabs when close but don't set yourself up to get shield grabbed.

not sure which PK this is, but your up-b has extreme gimping capabilities on olimar, try to use this when we are off stage and hit us multiple times with the same PK, so aim for a tail hit and then follow up with the normal hit. just bait us to whistle it before you actually go for the hit, or else it makes our recovery easier because you are in lag and we can grab the edge. (chu said 2-3 pikmin to attempt this, maybe that's a good idea just to be safe)

that's all i can think of for matchup, also if we have a red on you never use pk fire, it will give you lag and our pikmin will completely absorb the attack

55-45 olimar imo

ah yes, captain lolimar. lolimar is one of those characters that learning the matchup is crucial otherwise you're gonna get plundered in tourny by a lolimar. some things ive learned-

jab and nair are the most effective moves in getting pikmin off of you as your not gonna need them for killing. reflecting pikmin back at him is a good idea if he isn't excpecting it plus your fsmash won't stale. when lolimar is recovering and he has >4 pikmin he's gonna throw them as he gets more of a boost from his upb without them. downb and pikmin pluck have super armor incase anyone didn't know.

just the whistle has super armor, not the pluck

 

[rPSIvysaur]

I definitely want to see what APC says about this, because doesn't APN main Olimar?

 

[Chuee]

Yes, and PF has also played P~S so he probably knows this MU.

 

[prOAPC]

i'll edit this later when i have some more time

 

[Zori]

nair ***** olimar

 

[Chuee]

How so?
10questions

 

[orange/xd]

i've found dair to be just as effective as nair

 

[HailCrest]

i wonder how good uair is for killing pikmin?

edit: 100th post

 

[lil cj]

I used to use Olimar a while ago, so I know a little bit
idk what it is but Lucas and Olimar feel the same to me

I know for sure we have the advantage in this matchup, by a small percent
Lucas is good at edge guarding and that kills Olimar
He has no big advantage over us except that he can camp better than us so were forced to approach.
But we have a better faster ground game.
Also nair & jab are the best tools against him imo

55-45 Lucas

 

[rPSIvysaur]

Would D-air be a good approach? Because from what I know, his blind spot seems to be diagnally in front of him. Thoughts?

Edit: Well if we're counting post Hailcrest: 1151

 

[Chuee]

Would D-air be a good approach? Because from what I know, his blind spot seems to be diagnally in front of him. Thoughts?

Dair's hitbox is mostly below lucas but Dair is still lucas' best approach. If you space it properly he can't grab you.

@CJ: Edgeguarding Olimar isn't that easy. His tether (when he has full pikmin count, which is most of the time) goes extremely far, it's weakness is when someone is grabbing the ledge. Unfortunately lucas' gimping weakness is that his PKT has lag once it's done making it hard to grab the ledge in time.

Edit: 884

 

[rPSIvysaur]

Can't Lucas loop the tail while Olimar is going up to the ledge to hit him?

Also for edgegaurding
Too bad he can't whistle four hits of d-air

 

[HailCrest]

Can't Lucas loop the tail while Olimar is going up to the ledge to hit him?

Also for edgegaurding
Too bad he can't whistle four hits of d-air

well if he whistles the first hit he's not gonna get any knockback from the first hit which means the next three will likely miss anyway

and i only said 100th post because it's a nice number. your numbers are far from nice (chu is rather close to 888 though)

what does loli say to lucas dsmashing the ledge?

also throwing a yellow pikmin @ pk thunder during recovery = mean. hope that the loli ain't a sniper.

does loli's upB grab the ledge after it hits someone? if it doesn't lucas can just pkthunder/zapjump/doublejump/anything really to recover even if he gets hit.

alternatively, tether the ledge from far away so that you're hanging even more below the ledge. would loli be able to hit lucas at that position without dying himself?