The Lucas Boards' MU Thread - Discussing: Sonic

[PhoenixAlpha]

make rob eat his own ****

This

And, what character are we discussing next. Hopefully it's one that I can contribute to. XD

 

[rPSIvysaur]

Who can you contribute for?

 

[OniTheWolf]

Nvm, waiting for next match up

 

[PhoenixAlpha]

Who can you contribute for?

I can contribute to a lot of the top tier/bottom tier matchups.

I live in Dallas, which is swarming with MK and S/A tier, and due
to low tier side events, I've been practicing a lot of E/F/G tier, or w/e the bottom 3 tiers are.

ROB is not my strong suit. In fact, I lost to a ROB about a month ago. Made me sad.

 

[GwJ]

Meh, I would say just ban FD as a neutral, ROB is almost as campy as Snake there. Second, don't let DSmash OoS get to you. That can basically get you out of where you want to be (close to ROB) while it puts the ROB player in a situation where he can run away and start camping. Stay as close to ROB as possible. Lots of FTilt, NAir cancel and DAir combo's, and properly space FAir. It's hard, but if you predict ROB is gonna fire a laser, Try to absorb it, just be careful you don't eat a gyro instead. IMO, gimping ROB is easy (PK Thunder FTW for this MU), but we are just as gimpable. ROB's NAir hitbox is not to shabby, and his Gyro's offstage, as well as suprise edgeguarding lasers, BAirs, FAirs, and his DAir spike, are pretty good. Like I was saying, be careful when recovering. If you can, magnet pull to recover, or try to get a teather. If you must PKT2 to recover, do it quick! IMO, Zapt Jump recovering is somewhat important for this MU. Careful when rolling onto the stage, you'll get DSmashed. Although ROB's UTilt and USmash go through platforms, he's pretty tall, and can get abused from our DSmash above the platforms. This is a great way to keep him away on those not so spacious stages like BF and Smashville. I would CP anything small with platforms, like YI, BF, maybe PS1, or even SV. You can also go Norfair I guess, but ban Frigate and FD, most certainly FD! Lucas can't really recover wel on Frigate, sadly, and on FD, ROB can camp. Small stages hinder that. I'd say 55-45 Lucas.

You lost all credibility from my end after you said that.

 

[rPSIvysaur]

Oni... no...

Working on the summary... NOW!

 

[OniTheWolf]

mmk, I knew I'd get flamed for that , I'll go back and edit my last post. I'll see if I won't be nub and actually contribute valid information on the next MU. Rofl I hope I'm forgiven >_>

Sorry 'bout that, GW.

*edits last post *

Next time I do something that stupid, I'll consider leaving the boards, for the sake of my own creditability, also since you guys are the real Lucas/MU Discussion experts ^^

 

[PhoenixAlpha]

mmk, I knew I'd get flamed for that , I'll go back and edit my last post. I'll see if I won't be nub and actually contribute valid information on the next MU. Rofl I hope I'm forgiven >_>

Sorry 'bout that, GW.

*edits last post *

Next time I do something that stupid, I'll consider leaving the boards, for the sake of my own creditability, also since you guys are the real Lucas/MU Discussion experts ^^

At least incorrect or misguided contributions can be discussed and corrected. I'd rather have a wall of false information that can be updated/worked on than an empty hole where MU information needs to be. Most of us don't contribute enough on these boards. I'm glad RocketPSIence has taken over our matchup discussions.

 

[rPSIvysaur]

We need all contributions dude, I mean, if somethings wrong, we have to correct it. Sorry if we made you feel bad, but that was most definitely wrong (and also talked about a few pages back)

Also I would have forgotten about the rolling onto the stage and getting d-smashed

 

[OniTheWolf]

We need all contributions dude, I mean, if somethings wrong, we have to correct it. Sorry if we made you feel bad, but that was most definitely wrong (and also talked about a few pages back)

Also I would have forgotten about the rolling onto the stage and getting d-smashed

Nah, you guys did not make me feel bad, all info needs to be corrected, I just need to make sure also that I've played enough *insert MU characters here*, especially notable players with them, before posting, so that my opinions, or posts, whatever they may be, can be somewhat less on the biased and noobish side

 

[rPSIvysaur]

Wario Discussion Starts Now!

 

[~Pink Fresh~]

he can fart.

we can't.

we lose.

nah, it's like even. maybe a slight edge to wario

 

[PhoenixAlpha]

Wario Discussion Starts Now!

Dphat has a really good Wario. I can definitely give input on this. More later. I have class lol.

EDIT: Grab release to fsmash... gay

 

[ZMan]

wario isn't cheap wario is just FAT!

idk. wario likes to run around and dair and airdodge a lot. don't shield, roll, or spotdodge unless you want to smell like garlic for the rest of the tournament. probably in wario's favor because he gets a free kill if he grabs at higher %.

 

[PhoenixAlpha]

Can he grab release > fart us? If so that would SUCK so bad...

 

[Chuee]

Can he grab release > fart us? If so that would SUCK so bad...

lol no. Fart has terrible range.
He has a ***load of GR options on us. He gets a Fsmash which is main kill move, but they have to be nearly frame perfect.

 

[Tokaio]

Does anybody if we can do anything out of his air release? And do we have a guaranteed air release?

 

[PhoenixAlpha]

He gets a Fsmash which is main kill move, but they have to be nearly frame perfect.

I knew about this one. PX gets me with it every time we play. I'm not sure if we have GR stuff on him. I have a hard time getting grabs in this MU anyway, O_O

 

[Chuee]

We can't air release wario.

 

[PhoenixAlpha]

Does Wario have any GR options that are more threatening than the Fsmash?

 

[DMG]

Fsmash is guaranteed. It's not hard to do/land since we basically just have to buffer it and it comes out fast enough every time. Against a wall obviously we can regrab, but I don't think Wario pummels fast enough to force Lucas to ground break.

Fair for us outranges your Nair. Our Nair trades hits with yours if done right. Your Fair outranges our aerials I believe, but overall it's kinda risky to use against Wario. If you use it and he comes at you and you whiff/he airdodges, you will probably get punished for it.

Camping Dair can work but you can't get greedy with it. That and you have to know when to back off since Wario moves faster horizontally than you. Bair, don't even bother with it 90% of the time.

Jab is pretty good against Wario when done at the right time. Wario hits pretty fast, but Jab keeps him in check at surprising moments. Ftilt is ok, but if you miss it's gonna suck. Fsmash is pretty safe if you force Wario to shield it. He can punish usually if he is able to spotdodge or if you miss otherwise. Usmash, eww. Dsmash, it's ok but I think Fsmash overall is safer, at least against Wario. If he was slower in the air/not as flexible, then I could see Dsmash being as good as Fsmash or better in this matchup.

Try not to PK Fire camp THAT hard. Like Wario usually is forced to dodge it, but he doesn't lose ground/doesn't potentially put himself in danger by doing so. That and if he reads it well enough, he can surprise DACUS at you before it comes out.

Recovering you have to be careful, Wario has some dirty tricks. Like Zap Jumping is usually a good idea, you just have to be wary about going over Wario at the wrong time, considering he can follow you pretty well even if he guesses wrong on which direction you try to descend from/weave from. If you are forced to use PKT2, you have some other things to worry about.

Wario's Bike can stop Lucas in his Tracks while recovering, force him to eat a bunch of damage and fall downwards, and it gives Wario further time to edgeguard you further/stage spike you. Also if you time it wrong, Bike can "clash" and basically eat the PKT before it reaches you. Wario can also make it disappear by Fairing it and Dairing it (Nair and Uair work, but those are far more harder to implement successfully under normal circumstances). I've even seen Wario's Upb cling and break PKT, so in General just be careful of hit "eating" it up and leaving you to die.


Overall I think it's 60:40 Wario. I'm looking at some of the other characters you have done, and like he does better than Falco does, but he's no Snake/Marth/really hard matchup for Lucas. I think he does better than ROB though, but not enough to portray Wario as 65:35.

 

[rPSIvysaur]

Pummeling fast has nothing to do with releasing to the air, it has to do with whether or not the pummel animation has ended when you release.

 

[Chuee]

Recovering you have to be careful, Wario has some dirty tricks. Like Zap Jumping is usually a good idea, you just have to be wary about going over Wario at the wrong time, considering he can follow you pretty well even if he guesses wrong on which direction you try to descend from/weave from. If you are forced to use PKT2, you have some other things to worry about.

Wario's Bike can stop Lucas in his Tracks while recovering, force him to eat a bunch of damage and fall downwards, and it gives Wario further time to edgeguard you further/stage spike you. Also if you time it wrong, Bike can "clash" and basically eat the PKT before it reaches you. Wario can also make it disappear by Fairing it and Dairing it (Nair and Uair work, but those are far more harder to implement successfully under normal circumstances). I've even seen Wario's Upb cling and break PKT, so in General just be careful of hit "eating" it up and leaving you to die.

Wario's have bike onstage that often?

 

[DMG]

Pummeling fast has nothing to do with releasing to the air, it has to do with whether or not the pummel animation has ended when you release.

Wario's Pummel Rate is fairly low. If you compare how fast he pummels opponents compared to Marth, you can see that he's clearly slower. Marth is able to force people to ground break because he pummels fast enough to pretty much consistently keep people in the pummel animation. Wario pummels kinda slow, where you can try to time inbetween his pummels to get out.

Wario's have bike onstage that often?

Wario has a quick way to get his Bike onstage after knocking someone off. I'll go into detail later.

 

[~Pink Fresh~]

yup! They do that weird ledge bike thing. or just use it as a boost to get mad high in the air.

DMG described the MU. WE MOVIN ON.

OH! we lose if he gets the perecnt/stock lead. it goes from like 55:45/60:40 to 90:10

Like... seriously. You can't catch him >_>

I realized something about Ganon today. He's good as long as he's winning lol.

 

[ZMan]

but when is ganon gonna be winning though, pink?

just some common knowledge against wario- bite goes through shields and spotdodges, don't destroy bike if he leaves it on stage, i think wario has a small dthrow cg on lucas at lower % too (but i could be wrong)

jab is my best buddy in this mu. don't play air battles or you will DIE (unless you can space well). in short, dmg ***** he mu discussion before it began.

in terms of stages wario does well on just about everywhere. just ban whatever you don't like and cp whatever you comfertable on. just note that on brinstar if wario farts into the middle goo he gets suck there for a second and is a lingering hitbox, so don't go near him if he farts in the goo.

frame data http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=210128

 

[lil cj]

Every matchup we've done so far we're at a disadvantage
Very discouraging...it doesnt seem like Lucas is bad against all these characters

 

[Galeon]

OH! we lose if he gets the perecnt/stock lead. it goes from like 55:45/60:40 to 90:10

Like... seriously. You can't catch him >_>

This.

Wario trying to run the clock is a waaaaaay harder matchup than Wario trying to win by actually killing you. That's probably true for everyone though.

 

[HailCrest]

Well cj I don't know what sequence RPSI is trying to do but it seems kinda evident he's doing all the disadvantages first.

I hate Wario. Uair kills at 110%-120% from the ground, can't shieldgrab any of his aerials because of his air speed, and grab release -> fsmash is... ownage. I don't want to use the word ****. Because we're dealing with an old ugly fat man with a big nose vs. an innocent 13-year old boy.

I wouldn't expect to see any smashes on Wario's part in this matchup unless it's gr>fsmash. His fsmash is punishable if it misses, and that goes double for his dsmash. Usmash is outclassed by Uair.

Oh, and if you are anywhere above 70% between 1m30s and 2m into the match, start running. His fart kills as low as 60% when not fully charged. When fully charged (probably around two minutes into the match), it only kills at 97%++, but the wario would most likely prefer to use it as a recovery at this point.

P.S. I just realized that the picture of marth makes his hand look as big as his head

 

[rPSIvysaur]

We don't have to do all disadvantages first, who would you all like next?

 

[rPSIvysaur]

Anyway, so since DMG just gave us the entire MU neatly formatted and all, do you think we should move on to punishment (If anyone has something to say about it, you can go ahead and say it...)

 

[orange/xd]

What air release stuff do we have on him?

 

[Chuee]

What air release stuff do we have on him?

We can't air release him.

 

[orange/xd]

Awww.

Not like it would have mattered, it's hard for us to get a grab anyway.

 

[~Nasty~]

what do u mean we can't air release him? IF you can get a grab on him just pummel twice and wait for him to release. he should air release. I'm gonna test this tonight though. There's no reason why we shouldn't be able to air release him.

 

[PhantomX]

Yes there should, the reason you can't air release him is because not every Wario player is bad. The only thing that affects ground/air releases is where you grab the Wario (off a platform/stage, on a slant, whatever) and then his inputs, not yours.

Wario can't even aircamp that amazing against Lucas b/c of how maneuverable your PK Thunder is. It's a pretty easy matchup for Wario though, anyway.

 

[cloudenvy112]

Depends on how you look at this match-up. For me, it's 55:45 in Wario's favor. Wario's fsmash can be spammed to no end. Invincibility frames on it don't help either. It helps me if I get Wario in the air with a few Nairs and Fairs. Lucas's air game may not be the best but it's better than Wario's. Wario's pretty easy to beat though so not much help needed since he's predictable.

 

[HailCrest]

Depends on how you look at this match-up. For me, it's 55:45 in Wario's favor. Wario's fsmash can be spammed to no end. Invincibility frames on it don't help either. It helps me if I get Wario in the air with a few Nairs and Fairs. Lucas's air game may not be the best but it's better than Wario's. Wario's pretty easy to beat though so not much help needed since he's predictable.

...

no

10no

Wario's uair kills at 110%
His aerial movement is da pwnz
Wario lives in the air.

 

[~Nasty~]

Yes there should, the reason you can't air release him is because not every Wario player is bad. The only thing that affects ground/air releases is where you grab the Wario (off a platform/stage, on a slant, whatever) and then his inputs, not yours.

Wario can't even aircamp that amazing against Lucas b/c of how maneuverable your PK Thunder is. It's a pretty easy matchup for Wario though, anyway.

lol, well thanks for clarifying that up. my fault. But then i have to ask, why is it that snake can force an air release on Wario? When i go snake against a wario i just pummel once or twice and wait for him to air release and then Utilt to kill him. i don't understand why it's different for lucas or any character for that matter...

... i'm gonna make an "I hate Sakurai" group on Facebook.. who wants to join? lol

 

[Chuee]

Depends on how you look at this match-up. For me, it's 55:45 in Wario's favor. Wario's fsmash can be spammed to no end. Invincibility frames on it don't help either. It helps me if I get Wario in the air with a few Nairs and Fairs. Lucas's air game may not be the best but it's better than Wario's. Wario's pretty easy to beat though so not much help needed since he's predictable.

wow
wow
wow
no
no
no
no
Everything said in that is wrong in every single way shape and form. Fsmash is not spammable and highly punishable if it doesn't hit. His air game is leagues better than ours. He may be predictable, but it doesn't matter because you won't punish him. Oh, and Wario isn't that easy to beat.