The Legendary Heroes of Galar - Zacian and Zamazenta for Smash

[LukeRNG]

The guy who leaked most of the Crown Tundra content early said there's another Pokémon game coming out next year. Regardless of what this game ends up being, SwSh would not be the one and only game in Gen 8's lifespan. I still think Gen 4 remakes are on the table, especially since Lucario is being promoted so heavily in the anime.

Speaking of which...

View attachment 291290

Really hope next week isn't the only time we see the wolves.

If they were to show up again it most likely wouldn't be until much later on in the next season (unless something unexpected happens next week, since I just noticed both Ash & Goh are seen with 5 pokemon each in the opening).

 

[fogbadge]

If they were to show up again it most likely wouldn't be until much later on in the next season (unless something unexpected happens next week).

we could say a version of the post game story

also i know how sobble in your avatar feels

 

[Bobthealligator]

The guy who leaked most of the Crown Tundra content early said there's another Pokémon game coming out next year. Regardless of what this game ends up being, SwSh would not be the one and only game in Gen 8's lifespan. I still think Gen 4 remakes are on the table, especially since Lucario is being promoted so heavily in the anime.

Speaking of which...

View attachment 291290

Really hope next week isn't the only time we see the wolves.

Lucario could be a clue, but to be fair Ash is an aura guardian so it's probably just making up for him not having one before now.

 

[fogbadge]

Lucario could be a clue, but to be fair Ash is an aura guardian so it's probably just making up for him not having one before now.

nah they just seem to be giving him the popular ones

 

[LukeRNG]

Lucario could be a clue, but to be fair Ash is an aura guardian so it's probably just making up for him not having one before now.

From what I've seen Lucario is the #1 pokemon people wanted Ash to have for years since the 8th movie & the Riolu special episodes.

 

[Cosmic77]

Always thought the size difference between amiibo was hilarious.

Wonder how Zacian and Zamazenta would compare to Pichu...

 

[zacian]

Always thought the size difference between amiibo was hilarious.

View attachment 291432

Wonder how Zacian and Zamazenta would compare to Pichu...

The squirtle amiibo reminds me of how big it was in Brawl

 

[fogbadge]

anyone else bugged by the fact that the current series of pokemon is only on streaming sites?

 

[LukeRNG]

anyone else bugged by the fact that the current series of pokemon is only on streaming sites?

Not really. In the current world we live in it was only inevitable.

 

[fogbadge]

Not really. In the current world we live in it was only inevitable.

i still havent worked what this "pop" that pokemon is on over here is

 

[Starlight Liger]

I not only support but outright expect both Zacian and Zamazenta for Super Smash Bros Ultimate. In fact, I predict them both to be the final fighters.

We're going to get a Sword/Shield representative, there's no question about that. However, selecting who that representative is tricky but I ultimately believe that both Zacian and Zamazenta are deserving of the position. Cinderace isn't going to make the cut because of Incineroar, he's the Fire starter representative. Toxicitry hasn't gained the popularity that Lucario or Zoroark has so he's not going to make it in, Rillaboom is my reserve choice if Sakurai wants to complete the Pokemon elemental starter trifecta with Greninja and Incineroar, but Zacian and Zamazenta edge Rillaboom out not only because they're more popular Pokemon but they define Sword and Shield. Zacian and Zamazenta as fighters can work by being like Shulk's Monado arts in a more reduced state, Zacian is the speedy heavy hitter but is more easily susceptible to damage whilst Zamazenta is the slower tank but takes less damage and has better recovery. As far as their alternate colours go, their colour scheme can replicate the counterpart legendaries from the mainline games to pay tribute to the box cover legendaries.

 

[LukeRNG]

I not only support but outright expect both Zacian and Zamazenta for Super Smash Bros Ultimate. In fact, I predict them both to be the final fighters.

We're going to get a Sword/Shield representative, there's no question about that. However, selecting who that representative is tricky but I ultimately believe that both Zacian and Zamazenta are deserving of the position. Cinderace isn't going to make the cut because of Incineroar, he's the Fire starter representative. Toxicitry hasn't gained the popularity that Lucario or Zoroark has so he's not going to make it in, Rillaboom is my reserve choice if Sakurai wants to complete the Pokemon elemental starter trifecta with Greninja and Incineroar, but Zacian and Zamazenta edge Rillaboom out not only because they're more popular Pokemon but they define Sword and Shield. Zacian and Zamazenta as fighters can work by being like Shulk's Monado arts in a more reduced state, Zacian is the speedy heavy hitter but is more easily susceptible to damage whilst Zamazenta is the slower tank but takes less damage and has better recovery. As far as their alternate colours go, their colour scheme can replicate the counterpart legendaries from the mainline games to pay tribute to the box cover legendaries.

It's great you think that, but them being the last dlc characters might be too much. If they want another Byleth situation that's on them, but we really don't believe they'd make that mistake again (nor do we want that).

And well, I don't believe Incineoar is an abstacle for Cinderace due to the fact that I believe Sakurai doesn't care about pokemon types overlapping (see Charizard/Incineroar, Pikachu/Pichu, Squirtle/Greninja and even Greninja/Incineoar) as long as he has a different enough moveset for them. Which is why I also don't think he cares if the type triangle isn't completed, especially since Pokemon Trainer already does.
For Toxtricity, Greninja was picked WAY before it got Charizard levels of popularity. And Incineroar wasn't THE most popular gen 7 pokemon at the end of the day.

It'll all boil down to a balance of unique moveset, the relative ease of making said moveset & how well the pokemon represents Sword & Shield; which isn't for us to decide. Still, we do believe in Zacian/Zamazenta being the best candidates.

 

[Cosmic77]

Regarding whether or not Zacian and/or Zamazenta would be the last fighter(s) of the pass, I'll just say what I'd tell any other support thread: Obviously they can still make it in, but I'd lower your expectations.

As for which Pokémon has the best chance, I still stand by my belief that Sakurai tends to favor Pokémon who naturally fit in fighting games. If I had to narrow down the Pokémon outside Zacian and Zamazenta who have the best chance solely because of how easy they'd be, I'd say Cinderace, Inteleon, Obstagoon, Sirfetch'd, and Urshifu.

Lucario, Greninja, and Incineroar were arguably some of the easiest Pokémon to imagine in Smash from their respective Gens. Coming up with basic attacks like tilts and aerials probably wasn't very hard, which is why I think Sakurai is more likely to go for someone like Cinderace than Toxtricity or Dragapult, even if the latter two are more popular.

Zamazenta would be a little harder, but Zacian seems pretty straightforward. The sword alone takes care of most of the moveset (though I'd prefer Sakurai used more). The specials would be the only thing Sakurai would really have to stop and think about, and specials are pretty easy to come up with due to how much creative freedom you have with each one. Zamazenta would likely have to rely more on claws and bashing, but he's still in a better position than other candidates IMO.

 

[fogbadge]

Regarding whether or not Zacian and/or Zamazenta would be the last fighter(s) of the pass, I'll just say what I'd tell any other support thread: Obviously they can still make it in, but I'd lower your expectations.

As for which Pokémon has the best chance, I still stand by my belief that Sakurai tends to favor Pokémon who naturally fit in fighting games. If I had to narrow down the Pokémon outside Zacian and Zamazenta who have the best chance solely because of how easy they'd be, I'd say Cinderace, Inteleon, Obstagoon, Sirfetch'd, and Urshifu.

Lucario, Greninja, and Incineroar were arguably some of the easiest Pokémon to imagine in Smash from their respective Gens. Coming up with basic attacks like tilts and aerials probably wasn't very hard, which is why I think Sakurai is more likely to go for someone like Cinderace than Toxtricity or Dragapult, even if the latter two are more popular.

Zamazenta would be a little harder, but Zacian seems pretty straightforward. The sword alone takes care of most of the moveset (though I'd prefer Sakurai used more). The specials would be the only thing Sakurai would really have to stop and think about, and specials are pretty easy to come up with due to how much creative freedom you have with each one. Zamazenta would likely have to rely more on claws and bashing, but he's still in a better position than other candidates IMO.

it is a shame that he goes for the pokemon that are more natural fits when he includes fighters like piranha plant

 

[zacian]

So interesting thing came up with Gloria in Masters. There was another update that, while it didn’t say who she is getting paired with, it added some login bonuses counting down to her release

And one of the bonuses is a Steel Tome, which is used to raise the level cap for Steel Sync Pairs. So it’s possible she might get paired with either Zacian or Zamazenta

 

[Ridley64]

If they will do another sword character, I will prefer this one. If I'm not already down, put me on the list.

 

[Starlight Liger]

It's great you think that, but them being the last dlc characters might be too much. If they want another Byleth situation that's on them, but we really don't believe they'd make that mistake again (nor do we want that).

And well, I don't believe Incineoar is an abstacle for Cinderace due to the fact that I believe Sakurai doesn't care about pokemon types overlapping (see Charizard/Incineroar, Pikachu/Pichu, Squirtle/Greninja and even Greninja/Incineoar) as long as he has a different enough moveset for them. Which is why I also don't think he cares if the type triangle isn't completed, especially since Pokemon Trainer already does.
For Toxtricity, Greninja was picked WAY before it got Charizard levels of popularity. And Incineroar wasn't THE most popular gen 7 pokemon at the end of the day.

It'll all boil down to a balance of unique moveset, the relative ease of making said moveset & how well the pokemon represents Sword & Shield; which isn't for us to decide. Still, we do believe in Zacian/Zamazenta being the best candidates.

Pokemon is the most popular franchise in the world, that's not at all comparable to Byleth. People hated Byleth because we had too many Fire Emblem representatives as is, and Robin and Corrin were already the player character representation for Fire Emblem in Smash Bros. A Fire Emblem character wouldn't have been as negatively received if the fighter was one of the Three Houses leaders, but having Byleth instead just added fuel to the fire.

And yes, I still believe Incineroar drastically lowers Cinderace chances of being in Smash Bros Ultimate. The Pokemon Trainer can't really count for the overlap because he has starters for all of the elemental types, Pichu was added because he was a baby character just like how Young Link was a baby variant of Link and Greninja and Incineroar's dark typing is arguably meaningless in Smash. Finishing the final evolution elemental trifecta with Rillaboom would be more positively received than Cinderace despite the latter being the more popular Pokemon. You said yourself that Incineroar wasn't the most popular Generation 7 starter, the same can be said for Rillaboom.

But as you said, this is a Zacian/Zamazenta thread, and seeing as Nintendo are the ones deciding the fighter, they'll most likely decide on them for the Sword and Shield representation.

 

[Cosmic77]

Personally, I don't think any of the starters have significantly more pros than cons. For every reason Sakurai would choose one, there's another that makes them seem just as unlikely.

Rillaboom is a grass type, which is obviously a type that people have been demanding for a while. Still, Rillaboom is significantly less popular than the other two, making it a questionable choice. It's also arguably the most difficult starter to make a moveset for; Cinderace and Inteleon would be far easier due to their abilities working well in a fast-paced fighting game.

Cinderace is the most popular starter and most prominent starter in the anime. It's also has the most basic ability — kicking and kicking projectiles. Perhaps it's ignorant to say that after Incineroar, but it doesn't strike me as a very creative or exciting addition. There's also the matter of it being another fire starter, which may or may not matter to Sakurai. There's nothing so far that would suggest he would care, but I'd like to think he'd be somewhat hesitant.

Inteleon is stuck in the middle of pretty much everything. Not as prominent or popular as Cinderace, but better than Rillaboom. Not as difficult to make a moveset for compared to Rillaboom, but more difficult than Cinderace. The only thing I'd say he excels in is the moveset potential. He can shoot, glide, and (supposedly) use a hidden knife in his tail. Will any of that matter to Sakurai? After Decidueye, it's hard to say.

Even if it's not one of the wolves, I REALLY want Sakurai to choose something outside the starters. To be completely blunt, none of these feel like they'd offer a moveset that would impress me. Not saying they wouldn’t be unique, but they feel basic and uncreative compared to other choices.

 

[Starlight Liger]

Personally, I don't think any of the starters have significantly more pros than cons. For every reason Sakurai would choose one, there's another that makes them seem just as unlikely.

Rillaboom is a grass type, which is obviously a type that people have been demanding for a while. Still, Rillaboom is significantly less popular than the other two, making it a questionable choice. It's also arguably the most difficult starter to make a moveset for; Cinderace and Inteleon would be far easier due to their abilities working well in a fast-paced fighting game.

Cinderace is the most popular starter and most prominent starter in the anime. It's also has the most basic ability — kicking and kicking projectiles. Perhaps it's ignorant to say that after Incineroar, but it doesn't strike me as a very creative or exciting addition. There's also the matter of it being another fire starter, which may or may not matter to Sakurai. There's nothing so far that would suggest he would care, but I'd like to think he'd be somewhat hesitant.

Inteleon is stuck in the middle of pretty much everything. Not as prominent or popular as Cinderace, but better than Rillaboom. Not as difficult to make a moveset for compared to Rillaboom, but more difficult than Cinderace. The only thing I'd say he excels in is the moveset potential. He can shoot, glide, and (supposedly) use a hidden knife in his tail. Will any of that matter to Sakurai? After Decidueye, it's hard to say.

Even if it's not one of the wolves, I REALLY want Sakurai to choose something outside the starters. To be completely blunt, none of these feel like they'd offer a moveset that would impress me. Not saying they wouldn’t be unique, but they feel basic and uncreative compared to other choices.

Sirfetch'd would make for a very inspired fighter to represent Sword and Shield.

 

[fogbadge]

Sirfetch'd would make for a very inspired fighter to represent Sword and Shield.

or just sword

 

[Starlight Liger]

or just sword

He can represent both, Sirfetch'd being version exclusive in his game of origin doesn't matter as a fighter.

 

[Cosmic77]

Sirfetch'd would make for a very inspired fighter to represent Sword and Shield.

Maybe. I just don't know how Sakurai would make him feel like the superior choice to Zacian and/or Zamazenta.

He has a lance, which sort of makes him a little unique, I guess. Aside from that though, there's not much else to Sirfetch'd that makes him come across as much more than a duck with a long sword to me. If we compare him to other Pokémon, then yeah, he's very unique; haven't had many Pokémon designed like him. In the context of Smash though? From everything I've seen Sirfetch'd do so far, I don't think he'd be very unique. Sakurai could take some liberties to make Sirfetch'd more special, but he can easily do that with other Pokémon too.

I don't know. Just feels like there's so much more Sakurai could get away with if he chose the sword that can cut through anything or the shield that can stop any attack.

 

[fogbadge]

He can represent both, Sirfetch'd being version exclusive in his game of origin doesn't matter as a fighter.

and then wed all accuse TPC of favouritism

 

[Starlight Liger]

and then wed all accuse TPC of favouritism

Honestly, people wouldn't care about that technicality. Galarian Farfetch'd/Sirfetch'd can be traded into Shield.

 

[fogbadge]

Honestly, people wouldn't care about that technicality. Galarian Farfetch'd/Sirfetch'd can be traded into Shield.

people always care

 

[Starlight Liger]

people always care

A bunch of older gamers got triggered over the inclusion of Minecraft Steve but they eventually got over it. The same can be said for Sirfetch'd. Anyway, this is a thread about Zacian and Zamazenta so let's keep the discussion towards the legendary doggos.

 

[Delzethin]

Careful, people. We shouldn't be so quick to assume things. Newcomers aren't chosen just for "representation", so who would "represent" Sword & Shield best is beside the point. The Galar starters could do some unique things, it's just that we believe Zacian and/or Zamazenta would be more unique and more interesting to play as because of that. And we've had several past newcomers get chosen for their uniqueness, so it's worth accounting for.

It's great you think that, but them being the last dlc characters might be too much. If they want another Byleth situation that's on them, but we really don't believe they'd make that mistake again (nor do we want that).

On one hand, calling Byleth a "mistake" is...missing the point. Newcomer speculation lately has been looking for the wrong things, viewing characters more as a means to an end of creating more crossovers. Byleth was chosen for being relevant at the right time and being able to do things no other fighter could (and because according to Sakurai, having someone very new next to all the older characters helps keep things fresh). Many other characters in the past have been chosen for similar reasons, but because hardcore speculators have started only caring about star power and collecting famous icons, they saw something that has always been Smash's M.O. and saw it as a betrayal.

But here's the thing: There wasn't as much backlash outside our niche of the Smash community (or gaming as a whole). In fact, Byleth was and continues to be one of the most common DLC characters I've run across online, second only to Joker (who is top tier competitively and inherently common because of that) and Steve (who is the newest character). If Sakurai is trying to make DLC fighters appealing to play as, then it seems Byleth actually succeeded at that!

Which is important for us, because while I don't think a SwSh character would fill the same niche as Byleth for Pass 2 (since the games will be over 2 years old by the time Fighter #11 is out and they'll want someone more recent for the niche), I do think a Pokémon character is likely for the other reasons Byleth was chosen: being relevant at the right time and having the potential to do something no other character can.

The fact that Gen 8 alone has so many viable options (even if narrowed down to just the most prominent mons) and happens to be from one of Nintendo's biggest franchises (so the "literally who" factor would absolutely not be there) helps even further!

 

[fogbadge]

A bunch of older gamers got triggered over the inclusion of Minecraft Steve but they eventually got over it. The same can be said for Sirfetch'd. Anyway, this is a thread about Zacian and Zamazenta so let's keep the discussion towards the legendary doggos.

you brought him up in the first place

and it wasnt only older gamers, it was half the gaming community

 

[LukeRNG]

Careful, people. We shouldn't be so quick to assume things. Newcomers aren't chosen just for "representation", so who would "represent" Sword & Shield best is beside the point. The Galar starters could do some unique things, it's just that we believe Zacian and/or Zamazenta would be more unique and more interesting to play as because of that. And we've had several past newcomers get chosen for their uniqueness, so it's worth accounting for.


On one hand, calling Byleth a "mistake" is...missing the point. Newcomer speculation lately has been looking for the wrong things, viewing characters more as a means to an end of creating more crossovers. Byleth was chosen for being relevant at the right time and being able to do things no other fighter could (and because according to Sakurai, having someone very new next to all the older characters helps keep things fresh). Many other characters in the past have been chosen for similar reasons, but because hardcore speculators have started only caring about star power and collecting famous icons, they saw something that has always been Smash's M.O. and saw it as a betrayal.

But here's the thing: There wasn't as much backlash outside our niche of the Smash community (or gaming as a whole). In fact, Byleth was and continues to be one of the most common DLC characters I've run across online, second only to Joker (who is top tier competitively and inherently common because of that) and Steve (who is the newest character). If Sakurai is trying to make DLC fighters appealing to play as, then it seems Byleth actually succeeded at that!

Which is important for us, because while I don't think a SwSh character would fill the same niche as Byleth for Pass 2 (since the games will be over 2 years old by the time Fighter #11 is out and they'll want someone more recent for the niche), I do think a Pokémon character is likely for the other reasons Byleth was chosen: being relevant at the right time and having the potential to do something no other character can.

The fact that Gen 8 alone has so many viable options (even if narrowed down to just the most prominent mons) and happens to be from one of Nintendo's biggest franchises (so the "literally who" factor would absolutely not be there) helps even further!

Sorry, I meant leaving Byleth for last was the mistake. Having the last character come from a series many people feel is saturated was going to have quite the backlash. The same would happen in this pass if fighter #11 was "another pokemon". I don't agree with the sentiments but I'm stating them from the general audience (many I've seen expect but don't want another pokemon). And it'd be nice for once to have the last reveal be generally exciting (even if it's not my hypest pick). I'm aware it's not necesarely under their control who releases first, but I'd hope they'd at least try to leave 1 third party for later.

So we're 1 month away from The Game Awards, who thinks a reveal could happen there? If we don't get a reveal then there's a good chance the character is a 1st party (of course it's no gurantee).

 

[Starlight Liger]

you brought him up in the first place

and it wasnt only older gamers, it was half the gaming community

Because I was responding to someone else regarding Sword and Shield representatives besides Zacian and Zamazenta and then you wanted to counter my suggestion. Also, it was not "half the gaming community" who were made at Minecraft Steve, it was just a vocal minority. Where's your data to prove that it was "half the gaming community"?

 

[Pokelego999]

Because I was responding to someone else regarding Sword and Shield representatives besides Zacian and Zamazenta and then you wanted to counter my suggestion. Also, it was not "half the gaming community" who were made at Minecraft Steve, it was just a vocal minority. Where's your data to prove that it was "half the gaming community"?

Pretty certain he was talking about Byleth, but did you not hear about the Twitter crash? First time since Michael Jackson died.

 

[Starlight Liger]

Pretty certain he was talking about Byleth, but did you not hear about the Twitter crash? First time since Michael Jackson died.

No, he was referring to Minecraft Steve, a character which was so positively received that it crashed Twitter.

 

[fogbadge]

No, he was referring to Minecraft Steve, a character which was so positively received that it crashed Twitter.

no he wasnt he split the community

 

[Starlight Liger]

no he wasnt he split the community

And the people who didn't like his inclusion eventually got over it. Just like with every other new fighter announced.

And again, where's your empirical evidence that he split the community? links? statistics? or am I just expected to take your word as the gospel truth?

 

[fogbadge]

And the people who didn't like his inclusion eventually got over it. Just like with every other new fighter announced.

theres a difference between getting ov er it and stopping going on about it. not everyone is over it

And again, where's your empirical evidence that he split the community? links? statistics? or am I just expected to take your word as the gospel truth?

well my evidence was sitting in the middle of it while it was going on

also that the attitude you had in the rex thread with your own claims

 

[Cosmic77]

Byleth was easily the most controversial and criticized character I've seen in all my years of Smash speculation, and I started during Brawl.

I'm not stating that as a hard fact, only an opinion. Still, I don't think there's much room for disagreement. It's hard to argue that anyone came close to Byleth, and I think it'll be hard for any future characters to top Byleth as well, save for maybe another FE character. Another Pokémon might come close, but I think Pokémon has a slight advantage due to how many people play the games.

 

[LukeRNG]

Byleth was easily the most controversial and criticized character I've seen in all my years of Smash speculation, and I started during Brawl.

I'm not stating that as a hard fact, only an opinion. Still, I don't think there's much room for disagreement. It's hard to argue that anyone came close to Byleth, and I think it'll be hard for any future characters to top Byleth as well, save for maybe another FE character. Another Pokémon might come close, but I think Pokémon has a slight advantage due to how many people play the games.

And at least pokemon look generally more appealing & unique from one another, so there's that too.

 

[Starlight Liger]

theres a difference between getting over it and stopping going on about it. not everyone is over it

well my evidence was sitting in the middle of it while it was going on

also that the attitude you had in the rex thread with your own claims

You do know that you don't have to reply to everything that I say, right? Unless you're looking to have the last word because every new counterargument you make is starting to make less sense.

You have no evidence of people still being angry over Minecraft Steve. People being mad over a Sword exclusive Pokemon is such a ridiculously weak argument to make. Mewtwo's Mega Evolution in Smash Wii U/3DS was Mega Mewtwo Y, were Pokemon X fans mad over that? absolutely not.

 

[fogbadge]

You have no evidence of people still being angry over Minecraft Steve. People being mad over a Sword exclusive Pokemon is such a ridiculously weak argument to make. Mewtwo's Mega Evolution in Smash Wii U/3DS was Mega Mewtwo Y, were Pokemon X fans mad over that? absolutely not.

you dont have any evidence that people are no longer angry about steve. so dont go demanding evidence for my point when you havent presented any of your own. and people never get angry over mewtwo cause after nearly 25 years hes still the most overrated out all 898

look this has got to stop. The sirfetched thing was clearly a joke and now we’re arguing over the fandom opinions of the latest character which isn’t something you can prove definitively so lets just agree to disagree

 

[Staarih]

As surreal as it is, as of today's episode Ash finally has a Lucario.
Oh, and let the Cinderace-era begin as of Goh's Raboot evolving as well.

Spoiler: Anime

Darkest Day-arc comes to an end, will be interesting to see what is up next in the anime. Funny how Eternatus was captured (and locked at Magnolia's apparently). I wonder if we'll see Zacian/Zamazenta again, I don't think either were captured (or recorded in Goh' Dex) and the ending was left kinda open...