The Legendary Heroes of Galar - Zacian and Zamazenta for Smash

[zacian]

the top or highest part of something Tundra preview

Also art of the dogs

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[LukeRNG]

Spoiler: Spoiler

I wonder why the Ultra Beasts are getting their own segment. They have nothing new to bring. I wonder....

Spoiler

Because they're aliens & quite bizzare.

 

[Pokelego999]

Spoiler

not a fan?

How was I implying that?

 

[fogbadge]

How was I implying that?

sounded like you were annoyed by their return

 

[Cosmic77]

We made it to 50 pages! That's a pretty big milestone!

Also art of the dogs

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Not that this should be used to compare and contrast popularity, but there's artwork of all the boxart Legendaries; Zacian and Zamazenta's already have the third most likes despite being less than 24 hours old (They're slightly behind Ho-oh and Lugia and quite a bit away from Reshiram and Zekrom).

Just thought it was interesting. Never let it be said that everyone hates the wolves.

 

[SJMistery]

Honestly I'm surprised it took this long for a comment like this to show up. Did you also think this for Byleth's inclusion or do you have a personal grudge against Pokemon to the point of feeling the need to talk us down with no evidence or any decency for healthy discussion?

Close, but not exact. I have a personal grudge against the abomination of a game that ruined the series for me permanently. This monstruosity with the DLCs counted is almost thrice the price of any other game, and has considerably less content than the last two generations released (and the last one was an obvious beta build already with an entire island missing half ot it's intended content), and to top it off the release version made sure to remove every single one of my favorite pokemon, minus Ditto. They even had the audacity to expand Quick Claw, the one item that's safe to say NOBODY likes to either play with or against and that has been requested for removal or rework millions of times, into an ability, it's like this game was tailor-made for me to hate it.

I have no problem with Byleth, I really like the Fire Emblem series and unlike the above mentioned trash, it comes from a game that has an interesting history, decent character depth and the usual nice gameplay of the series. None of this applies to Nokemon for the Switch.

 

[Pokelego999]

Close, but not exact. I have a personal grudge against the abomination of a game that ruined the series for me permanently. This monstruosity with the DLCs counted is almost thrice the price of any other game, and has considerably less content than the last two generations released (and the last one was an obvious beta build already with an entire island missing half ot it's intended content), and to top it off the release version made sure to remove every single one of my favorite pokemon, minus Ditto. They even had the audacity to expand Quick Claw, the one item that's safe to say NOBODY likes to either play with or against and that has been requested for removal or rework millions of times, into an ability, it's like this game was tailor-made for me to hate it.

I have no problem with Byleth, I really like the Fire Emblem series and unlike the above mentioned trash, it comes from a game that has an interesting history, decent character depth and the usual nice gameplay of the series. None of this applies to Nokemon for the Switch.

I still believe two 30 dollar DLCs which are basically two games is better than buying a 60 dollar third version which is the exact same game with minor changes to the plot.

 

[SJMistery]

I still believe two 30 dollar DLCs which are basically two games is better than buying a 60 dollar third version which is the exact same game with minor changes to the plot.

I never buy the third version. I also have a personal hate for that business practice, but they at least they made a genuine story on their own in BW, and got removed completely on XY. This S* showing it's ugly face again in SM (wich makes sense since the original SM games were already a half-finished beta build at best, of course they felt the need to release the actual finished games) was one of the big reasons I originally said that the next new games would need some major improvements for me to like them. And instead we got the full list of "ways to ruin the Pokemon franchise for every old school player" in one package.

 

[zacian]

They even had the audacity to expand Quick Claw, the one item that's safe to say NOBODY likes to either play with or against and that has been requested for removal or rework millions of times, into an ability,

Wait there’s a quick claw ability?

 

[SJMistery]

Wait there’s a quick claw ability?

Galarian Slowbro's Quick Draw, to be precise. And it's only a matter of time until they spread it.

 

[Staarih]

Close, but not exact. I have a personal grudge against the abomination of a game that ruined the series for me permanently. This monstruosity with the DLCs counted is almost thrice the price of any other game, and has considerably less content than the last two generations released (and the last one was an obvious beta build already with an entire island missing half ot it's intended content), and to top it off the release version made sure to remove every single one of my favorite pokemon, minus Ditto. They even had the audacity to expand Quick Claw, the one item that's safe to say NOBODY likes to either play with or against and that has been requested for removal or rework millions of times, into an ability, it's like this game was tailor-made for me to hate it.

I have no problem with Byleth, I really like the Fire Emblem series and unlike the above mentioned trash, it comes from a game that has an interesting history, decent character depth and the usual nice gameplay of the series. None of this applies to Nokemon for the Switch.

I get the gripes towards the games themselves (questionable technical/design choices etc), but the only thing that will translate to Smash should a Pokemon-character happen is, like, the Pokemon itself and its moves. And well, I guess a stage and spirits and music. So not any meta game abilities or DLC practices.

Unless you're just full on anti-Galar overall, "the games are bad" is a very subjective opinion especially regarding a potential inclusion in Smash, an unrelated game. But an opinion is an opinion, so sure.

 

[zacian]

Galarian Slowbro's Quick Draw, to be precise. And it's only a matter of time until they spread it.

Oh yeah I forgot that’s what Galar Slowbro’s ability does. Also I don’t get how a Pokémon being able to go first is that much of an issue, can’t you just find a way to work around it?

 

[LukeRNG]

Close, but not exact. I have a personal grudge against the abomination of a game that ruined the series for me permanently. This monstruosity with the DLCs counted is almost thrice the price of any other game, and has considerably less content than the last two generations released (and the last one was an obvious beta build already with an entire island missing half ot it's intended content), and to top it off the release version made sure to remove every single one of my favorite pokemon, minus Ditto. They even had the audacity to expand Quick Claw, the one item that's safe to say NOBODY likes to either play with or against and that has been requested for removal or rework millions of times, into an ability, it's like this game was tailor-made for me to hate it.

I have no problem with Byleth, I really like the Fire Emblem series and unlike the above mentioned trash, it comes from a game that has an interesting history, decent character depth and the usual nice gameplay of the series. None of this applies to Nokemon for the Switch.

Well I can't really say much about most of your grippes since I'm not into competitive (and I have heard nothing of people being against Quick Claw, heck I've heard the opposite) or the fact that I have no standards for mainline pokemon in general so I can enjoy any game I play, making it difficult to empathize with you. Plus I always box my pokemon so the dex cut was whatever for me.

In regards to Sun/Moon they felt like complete products to a lot of people I've seen, myself included. Heck, many of those people (even in my friend groups) gave many praises to Sun & Moon. And as for BW, I guess their somewhat poor sales comparatively & heavy backlash for being too different convinced GF to move away from what was in that generation. And low and behold X & Y sold immensely well.

In general I can't and won't deny the many problems the series has, but I'm easily won over with these games. Give me new pokemon with ways to bond with them, a new region that's well inspired & designed and more lore for the Pokemon world. For me they've been consistent with that at least.
Don't get me wrong, I'd be all for a more ambitious pokemon game; but until over 50% of people who buy pokemon games stop buying them (which will never happen because most that buy pokemon are either children or old fans who also have very little standards), the games will stay the way they are with slow improvements.


Nonetheless, that's no reason to deny a pokemon rep to be added into smash. There's plenty of people who genuinely do want a pokemon from Sword & Shield. And the dev team doesn't care for the people who don't want that. Most new characters added have a group of people who either don't care or dislike the character and wish for their exclusion.

 

[Cosmic77]

Even though a conversation about the quality of SwSh is more relevant than some of the other topics we discuss, we've had this conversation sooooo many times on SmashBoards. It's one of the main reasons why I rarely discuss SwSh outside this thread nowadays.

Look, SwSh is not perfect. Never will be. Regardless, I do think people have been grossly exaggerating how terrible the games are compared to previous Gens. I had complaints with XY and SuMo too, and I can think of several ways they could've improved. SwSh is no different in that regard, but do I think the game took no steps forward and only steps backwards? Not at all. There are a lot of new things in SwSh that I'd like to see going forward, like the Wild Area for example.

After all this time, I think people are still letting the National Dex influence their opinions. They're actively looking for things to be upset about and quickly moving on from things that they like. There's no desire or effort to find the positives. Maybe after another Gen or two when we get more games that don't bring back the National Dex, people will start judging SwSh on other things. That's what I'd like to see happen, but who knows?

At the end of the day, none of this really matters. This is a support thread for Zacian and Zamazenta. The quality of SwSh has no bearing on their moveset and how they'd play.

 

[Pokelego999]

I dislike SWSH due to the numerous graphical and overall quality issues in the game, as well as the half baked plot. It's still fun but nonetheless needs to be more like Let's Go and the old Stadium games in how it animates everything.

 

[zacian]

To try and focus the topic back on Zacian and Zamazenta, here’s some cute art I found of them

There was a problem fetching the tweet

 

[fogbadge]

To try and focus the topic back on Zacian and Zamazenta, here’s some cute art I found of them

There was a problem fetching the tweet

cute is not the word id use

 

[LukeRNG]

cute is not the word id use

I beg to differ.


On another note:

Spoiler: Crown Tundra

Here's a closer look at the 2 horse pokemon "fused" with Calyrex:

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I legit can't pick between the 2, they look so good.
Nonetheless I do wonder, Legendary Horses or the Legendary Wolves? I'd love to see some sort of rivalry.

 

[zacian]

quick question, does anyone know what time the Crown Tundra is gonna release at?

 

[Pokelego999]

quick question, does anyone know what time the Crown Tundra is gonna release at?

According to Google

"A report on Pokemon Sword and Shield official website reveals that Crown Tundra DLC will be releasing on Thursday, October 22, 2020. The release time is 09:00 PT/12:00 ET in the United States, and 15:00 BST in the United Kingdom.10 hours ago"

 

[zacian]

TUNDRA UPDATE OUT NOW

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[LukeRNG]

Ok then, so far the Max Adventures are fun but not that hard. I like that I have to think more strategically though. And it seems the NPC partners are smarter this time.

 

[zacian]

Ok then, so far the Max Adventures are fun but not that hard. I like that I have to think more strategically though. And it seems the NPC partners are smarter this time.

I got destroyed by the legendary in my first Max Adventure, so I can say it’s hard

 

[Staarih]

And it's finally out, great, I'm gonna give Crown Tundra a go after work today.

Now onto waiting what GameFreak has in store next.

Also yay for Zacian & Zamazenta having their anime debut today!

 

[LukeRNG]

Okay, gonna say I love what they did with Calyrex in this. It's refreshing to see something different for the legendary pokemon for once. And good god those birds were a nightmare to get, still not sure if they're shiny locked though.

 

[SJMistery]

Oh yeah I forgot that’s what Galar Slowbro’s ability does. Also I don’t get how a Pokémon being able to go first is that much of an issue, can’t you just find a way to work around it?

The problem is how massively it destroys any importance of damage numbers and speed counting. It is an extremely important skill to be able to reliably estimate wether or not you will be hit before being able to respond, and if you move second how much damage you will take before attacking. Quick Claw creates a completely unpredictable factor that completely messes up all of this, and turns some already problematic moves into a potential instant loose (OHKO moves being the most blatant example, but that applies to pretty much every attacking or status-inducing attack). Every other RNG-related "F* you player, time to take a L at no fault of your own" has been slowly but consistently nerfed (paralyis can be avoided by electric types, critical hits are more rare deal less damage, confusion happens less often...) but Quick Claw, easily the most devastating of those mechanics, has stayed untouched.

And there is no realistic way to get around it. If I send a pokemon on the first turn with a quick claw equiped that isn't one-shotted to any priority attack and start spamming super-powerful attacks capable of OHKOing whatever you lead with, there is absolutely no way you can avoid dealing with it, even if you knew when team-building what I would use against you.

 

[meleebrawler]

The problem is how massively it destroys any importance of damage numbers and speed counting. It is an extremely important skill to be able to reliably estimate wether or not you will be hit before being able to respond, and if you move second how much damage you will take before attacking. Quick Claw creates a completely unpredictable factor that completely messes up all of this, and turns some already problematic moves into a potential instant loose (OHKO moves being the most blatant example, but that applies to pretty much every attacking or status-inducing attack). Every other RNG-related "F* you player, time to take a L at no fault of your own" has been slowly but consistently nerfed (paralyis can be avoided by electric types, critical hits are more rare deal less damage, confusion happens less often...) but Quick Claw, easily the most devastating of those mechanics, has stayed untouched.

And there is no realistic way to get around it. If I send a pokemon on the first turn with a quick claw equiped that isn't one-shotted to any priority attack and start spamming super-powerful attacks capable of OHKOing whatever you lead with, there is absolutely no way you can avoid dealing with it, even if you knew when team-building what I would use against you.

I'm surprised you didn't consider Smash already ruined by Hero.

 

[fogbadge]

crown tundra is awesome

 

[SJMistery]

I'm surprised you didn't consider Smash already ruined by Hero.

At least you can easily counter him by staying at range or forcing him on the defensive.

 

[Delzethin]

Been too preoccupied to comment lately, but summarizing my thoughts on the past few days' topics:

- I don't really have a good answer to the difficulty question. The mainline games have always been easy outside of a few isolated incidents, and most of the latter (Your rival in RBY ambushing you at the ends of dungeons, Cynthia's team in DP being way higher leveled than the first E4 member, etc.) are difficult for the wrong reasons. Sure, we all struggled getting through the games as kids, but that was because we had no idea what we were doing and no idea how to build a well-rounded party. Everyone had a playthrough where we reached the League with a Level 70 starter backed by a team of randoms in their 30s.

And the thing is, I haven't seen a good example yet of a fangame that succeeds at being challenging without tapping into that same Fake Difficulty. One big issue I had with Blaze Black and Volt White is how so much of its difficulty curve comes from stacking the deck in favor of major boss fights, usually by giving gym leaders and the like full teams at points where you'd struggle to get them yourself, with moves more powerful than you can get yourself at that point, at levels so high up that you're forced to grind.

- It'll be a few days before I can delve into the Crown Tundra, but reception so far seems pretty positive. Its design is very dynamic and varied and a step up from even the Isle of Armor, and it really shows how much the dev team has learned how to create open sections of a linear game. A Xenoblade-like approach is better for an RPG than a BotW-like structure, anyway.

Also, how did none of us think of that being Calyrex's gimmick? It makes so much sense considering he's supposed to be this legendary king-like figure.

- Far as I'm concerned, disliking a game shouldn't invalidate the potential its characters could have as playable fighters. Especially if there's something they could do that no one else is capable of! But even though Sakurai has emphasized that exact thing so much, speculation tends to gloss over it.

Shows how much more focused the Smash community is on "representation" and interpreting the roster as a who's-who of all stars. Why do so many people care more about wanting a character in Smash just so they can say they're present (or say they aren't)? Why has DLC speculation been treating the actual game as an afterthought to its cast? Perhaps figuring out why would help us counteract it.

 

[zacian]

Catching the legendaries made me want to cry, but overall, Crown Tundra is very good would recommend

 

[LukeRNG]

Been too preoccupied to comment lately, but summarizing my thoughts on the past few days' topics:

- I don't really have a good answer to the difficulty question. The mainline games have always been easy outside of a few isolated incidents, and most of the latter (Your rival in RBY ambushing you at the ends of dungeons, Cynthia's team in DP being way higher leveled than the first E4 member, etc.) are difficult for the wrong reasons. Sure, we all struggled getting through the games as kids, but that was because we had no idea what we were doing and no idea how to build a well-rounded party. Everyone had a playthrough where we reached the League with a Level 70 starter backed by a team of randoms in their 30s.

And the thing is, I haven't seen a good example yet of a fangame that succeeds at being challenging without tapping into that same Fake Difficulty. One big issue I had with Blaze Black and Volt White is how so much of its difficulty curve comes from stacking the deck in favor of major boss fights, usually by giving gym leaders and the like full teams at points where you'd struggle to get them yourself, with moves more powerful than you can get yourself at that point, at levels so high up that you're forced to grind.

- It'll be a few days before I can delve into the Crown Tundra, but reception so far seems pretty positive. Its design is very dynamic and varied and a step up from even the Isle of Armor, and it really shows how much the dev team has learned how to create open sections of a linear game. A Xenoblade-like approach is better for an RPG than a BotW-like structure, anyway.

Also, how did none of us think of that being Calyrex's gimmick? It makes so much sense considering he's supposed to be this legendary king-like figure.

- Far as I'm concerned, disliking a game shouldn't invalidate the potential its characters could have as playable fighters. Especially if there's something they could do that no one else is capable of! But even though Sakurai has emphasized that exact thing so much, speculation tends to gloss over it.

Shows how much more focused the Smash community is on "representation" and interpreting the roster as a who's-who of all stars. Why do so many people care more about wanting a character in Smash just so they can say they're present (or say they aren't)? Why has DLC speculation been treating the actual game as an afterthought to its cast? Perhaps figuring out why would help us counteract it.

It's very assuring for the potential of generation 9 and it being all open world. Let's hope they're given more time & resources to make gen 9 be even grander than Sword & Shield (for all we know they could be getting help from Nintendo now that Gamefreak share a building with them, though it could mean nothing). Games that come out later in a console's lifespan tend to be fan favorite games for the fans (Emerald with the GBA, HG SS & Gen 5 with the DS, Gen 7 with the 3DS and hopefully Gen 9 with the Switch).

 

[Staarih]

It's very assuring for the potential of generation 9 and it being all open world. Let's hope they're given more time & resources to make gen 9 be even grander than Sword & Shield (for all we know they could be getting help from Nintendo now that Gamefreak share a building with them, though it could mean nothing). Games that come out later in a console's lifespan tend to be fan favorite games for the fans (Emerald with the GBA, HG SS & Gen 5 with the DS, Gen 7 with the 3DS and hopefully Gen 9 with the Switch).

Yeah, and it looks like they're getting the gist of things with these DLC packs, seeing how Crown Tundra is apparenrtly getting really good reviews and word of mouth despite vanilla Sw/Sh being "bad games". I feel like GF can definitely pull off quality stuff if they just had the time - instead of taking games out of the oven a bit too early just to be on "schedule".

 

[LukeRNG]

Yeah, and it looks like they're getting the gist of things with these DLC packs, seeing how Crown Tundra is apparenrtly getting really good reviews and word of mouth despite vanilla Sw/Sh being "bad games". I feel like GF can definitely pull off quality stuff if they just had the time - instead of taking games out of the oven a bit too early just to be on "schedule".

Sadly it seems they're forced into that tight schedule by The Pokemon Company to coincide with Merchandise, Anime, TCG, etc., since I believe they wouldn't want to wait till Gamefreak do everything they wanted to do with the game. And all the leaked betas we've been getting as of late show how much more they wanted to add in recent years, but had to cut it to meet deadlines. If you can, look at the XY beta; cause it's crazy how drastically different the story would've been.

 

[SJMistery]

Been too preoccupied to comment lately, but summarizing my thoughts on the past few days' topics:

- I don't really have a good answer to the difficulty question. The mainline games have always been easy outside of a few isolated incidents, and most of the latter (Your rival in RBY ambushing you at the ends of dungeons, Cynthia's team in DP being way higher leveled than the first E4 member, etc.) are difficult for the wrong reasons. Sure, we all struggled getting through the games as kids, but that was because we had no idea what we were doing and no idea how to build a well-rounded party. Everyone had a playthrough where we reached the League with a Level 70 starter backed by a team of randoms in their 30s.

And the thing is, I haven't seen a good example yet of a fangame that succeeds at being challenging without tapping into that same Fake Difficulty. One big issue I had with Blaze Black and Volt White is how so much of its difficulty curve comes from stacking the deck in favor of major boss fights, usually by giving gym leaders and the like full teams at points where you'd struggle to get them yourself, with moves more powerful than you can get yourself at that point, at levels so high up that you're forced to grind.

I have. It's called Pokemon Reborn. The field effects (that Game Freak shoddily and unashamedly ripped off in XY and SM) make the fights much more tactical and make the otherwise laughable mono-type teams of the leaders more dangerous since each gets a field effect that puts their team in a significant advantage, but since those effects are available to both players you can simply also bring a pokemon that gets benefitted by the terrain (either by being the same type or having a move that is beneffited by the side-effects of the terrain, like using priority moves on the icy field), and by using certain moves you can terminate or swap them to a more advantageous one (like turning the grass-type fields into a burning inferno by using Lava Plume or using clear smog twice to turn the misty terrain into a poison-type terrain), it's fair.

 

[LukeRNG]

Gotta say, watching the first episode of the Darkest Day arc felt like a part of a movie. So far it's been really good with very minimal feeling of being rushed.
So far my only criticism is the very little establishment of Chairman Rose's motives.

 

[Cosmic77]

I do think it's interesting how only Ash met Zacian and only Goh met Zamazenta. Both tried to catch them with a Pokeball. Makes you wonder if that's suggesting a capture later down the line.

 

[Pokelego999]

Gotta say, watching the first episode of the Darkest Day arc felt like a part of a movie. So far it's been really good with very minimal feeling of being rushed.
So far my only criticism is the very little establishment of Chairman Rose's motives.

Just like the games

 

[Delzethin]

Sadly it seems they're forced into that tight schedule by The Pokemon Company to coincide with Merchandise, Anime, TCG, etc., since I believe they wouldn't want to wait till Gamefreak do everything they wanted to do with the game. And all the leaked betas we've been getting as of late show how much more they wanted to add in recent years, but had to cut it to meet deadlines. If you can, look at the XY beta; cause it's crazy how drastically different the story would've been.

Gotta say, watching the first episode of the Darkest Day arc felt like a part of a movie. So far it's been really good with very minimal feeling of being rushed.
So far my only criticism is the very little establishment of Chairman Rose's motives.

Just like the games

It really has started to feel like these games are just too complicated now for each generation to only last three years. There keep being signs that the devs wanted to do more but ran out of time to.

Honestly, my biggest hope now for Gen 9 is that it happens in 2023, not 2022. Come on, TPC execs, give your developers more time to work their magic. Surely there must be other stuff you can do to fill that additional year that'd still sell well.

 

[Cosmic77]

The person who leaked the Crown Tundra information has already claimed that a new Pokémon game is coming out next year.

Not a huge surprise given how it's an anniversary year, but I think it's safe to assume that GF is still on the same tight schedule. Even if it's something like a Gen 4 remake, it'll still take a lot of work for them.