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    The Future of Ultimate Newcomer Speculation

The Legendary Heroes of Galar - Zacian and Zamazenta for Smash

Which would you rather see get in Smash as a newcomer?

  • Zacian

  • Zamazenta


Results are only viewable after voting.

Noipoi

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Hey there, just came by to drop a little good luck before the announcement.

From Lycanroc to Zacian/Zamazenta, your devotion to wolf-like Pokémon over the years of smash speculation is certainly respectable.
 

Delzethin

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Hello, it’s been a long time since I’ve been on smashboards.

As Smash Ultimate comes to a close, I want to say that it’s been a wild ride for this speculation cycle. I’ve talked to some of you guys for almost 4 years before Ultimate was even revealed, and its pretty cool to see it all come to a close.

I don’t really have any stakes for this last fighter, as I’m mostly sticking around for the ride at this point, but here’s hoping our big break comes at this last moment.
Hey there, just came by to drop a little good luck before the announcement.

From Lycanroc to Zacian/Zamazenta, your devotion to wolf-like Pokémon over the years of smash speculation is certainly respectable.
Thank you, both of you. I may not be in a leadership role around here anymore, but it means a lot to see you here again before the end.

Heh. It really does feel like Everyone is Here...

Sakurai shared a small hint about the final character.

Masahiro Sakurai: "Even if you don't play Smash Bros, and are just interested in gaming, I'd like to invite you to watch the broadcast. You may not know the new fighter, or it might be different from your personal expectations. BUT, we hope you enjoy this game show and the broadcast itself! I really enjoyed recording the broadcast."

So it seems like we were right about the last character not being someone HUGE. That being said, Sakurai said it was a character that we might not know about. This makes me question whether or not he'd say something like that for a Pokémon, considering how massive the franchise is. I'm leaning toward either a very niche third-party or a promotional first-party.
Hard to say whether his statement truly means something or not. It's probably meant first and foremost to say "Hype Responsibly" to an audience that keeps letting their hype grow out of control, and I don't know if we should read further than that.

However...if it does mean something for Fighter #11, it sounds an awful lot like he's saying "temper your expectations". Whoever this is may be someone who isn't a household name.

I think we'd fall under that as-is.

Wanted to share one last piece of merch I got before tomorrow. Was fairly difficult to find.

View attachment 333131
Nice pickup! Still hard to believe they chose Zacian as one of only three 'mons to have a V-Union promo. Alongside fandom giants Mewtwo and Greninja, no less!

Only about six hours to go until we see if they'll cross swords in Smash as well.
 

Cosmic77

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Well, this is the end. I'm not going to type out a long and sappy essay that covers the past three years (mostly because its extremely late where I am, and I'm running on fumes), but before we get our final fighter, I just wanted to say that it's been a blast speculating with everyone. Most of the speculation threads I participated in weren't very popular, just like this one hasn't been. Still, I sort of enjoyed being the underdog, no pun intended. It also made me appreciate the few people who supported the same characters as me a lot more than I expected. It felt nice, because I knew those people had a genuine interest; they weren't just hopping on a bandwagon or predicting what they considered to be "safe".

I can't say I'm feeling great about our chances, but something tells me I'd probably be saying that regardless of which character I threw my support behind. No matter what happens today, I hope everyone won't move on from Zacian and Zamazenta. My admiration for these two extends beyond Smash, and I'd love to see that same admiration in others remain with them long after today.

So... good luck everyone. If not Zacian or Zamazenta, I hope at least one of you gets a character you've really wanted.
 

fogbadge

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so shall we make a general pokemon discussion thread somewhere to talk and the remakes and legends?
 

LukeRNG

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They really did end on a bang.

I'm surprised tbh. Didn't even occur to me that they'd save the actual ballot winner for now.
 
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Cosmic77

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Don't have any strong connection to Kingdom Hearts, but I guess it's nice that they ended with a highly requested character. Ironically, the ballot meant for Smash 4 gave us a better final character in Ultimate than the former. That being said, the Disney universes are the best part of the game imo, and of course all Disney references were removed. We also didn't get any remixed tracks, which is another disappointing aspect. Looks like we're continuing the trend of SE characters being restricted to some degree.

Anywho, it wasn't Zacian. It wasn't Zamazenta. I knew it was a longshot as more and more characters got revealed, but it still stinks that 3H is the only game that launched after Ultimate to get a character on the roster (and this marks the second Smash game in a row where this happened to FE). Doesn't seem like Gen 8 will ever get proper representation in Smash unfortunately. I'm sure we'll be well into Gen 9 or 10 by the next Smash game.

Don't get too upset though. Even though we love both Smash and Pokémon, we can't use either franchise to judge the other. Smash will never have even a portion of the Pokémon that deserve to be in, and we shouldn't look at new Pokémon based on how likely we believe they are for Smash. Take a step back and appreciate Zacian, Zamazenta, and SwSh for what they are. Take your victories from that angle. We have the mascots for the first Gen to ever debut on a home console. Zacian ended up being a monster in competitive play. SwSh, despite months and months of some of the most toxic and continuous criticism of the games, went on to surpass every Pokémon game in sales since Gold and Silver.

In the end, while very disheartening, the lack of a Gen 8 Pokémon isn't the end of the world. We moved on from Gen 3 and Gen 5, and we'll eventually move on from this Gen as well. Look forward to new Pokémon games in the future, and when another Smash game gets announced, we can find a new Pokémon to throw our support behind.
 

LukeRNG

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Don't have any strong connection to Kingdom Hearts, but I guess it's nice that they ended with a highly requested character. Ironically, the ballot meant for Smash 4 gave us a better final character in Ultimate than the former. That being said, the Disney universes are the best part of the game imo, and of course all Disney references were removed. We also didn't get any remixed tracks, which is another disappointing aspect. Looks like we're continuing the trend of SE characters being restricted to some degree.

Anywho, it wasn't Zacian. It wasn't Zamazenta. I knew it was a longshot as more and more characters got revealed, but it still stinks that 3H is the only game that launched after Ultimate to get a character on the roster (and this marks the second Smash game in a row where this happened to FE). Doesn't seem like Gen 8 will ever get proper representation in Smash unfortunately. I'm sure we'll be well into Gen 9 or 10 by the next Smash game.

Don't get too upset though. Even though we love both Smash and Pokémon, we can't use either franchise to judge the other. Smash will never have even a portion of the Pokémon that deserve to be in, and we shouldn't look at new Pokémon based on how likely we believe they are for Smash. Take a step back and appreciate Zacian, Zamazenta, and SwSh for what they are. Take your victories from that angle. We have the mascots for the first Gen to ever debut on a home console. Zacian ended up being a monster in competitive play. SwSh, despite months and months of some of the most toxic and continuous criticism of the games, went on to surpass every Pokémon game in sales since Gold and Silver.

In the end, while very disheartening, the lack of a Gen 8 Pokémon isn't the end of the world. We moved on from Gen 3 and Gen 5, and we'll eventually move on from this Gen as well. Look forward to new Pokémon games in the future, and when another Smash game gets announced, we can find a new Pokémon to throw our support behind.
Also that we only have music from the Original KH game. The best ones of course, but nothing from other titles. I was expecting at least from 1, 2 & 3. To be honest the lack of Disney doesn't bother me, as in recent games KH has become more and more independant from Disney & Final Fantasy.

But still a great way to end off. Shame about gen 8, I would've been more fine if Incineroar had come with a stage, cause that was a big thing for me: getting a new pokemon stage in Ultimate, but in the end nothing.

And yeah, in the time we've speculated the doggos they've grown a lot on me, I might even be team Zamazenta now.
 
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Delzethin

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Delzethin

And so, here we are, left out in the cold again. Everything we saw will probably never be recognized or acknowledged. By the time the next Smash game comes around, the spotlight will have long passed--such is the fate of a franchise that cycles in new characters every few years. It always hurts, realizing all the effort you put into something no longer matters.

Whether Sakurai and the rest truly believed Sword & Shield didn't deserve a newcomer or simply because there were other priorities, we likely won't ever know for sure. Though I have a sinking feeling the former will be what spreads, used as leverage against anyone who supported any character from Galar. An unfortunate truth I've had to learn is that an uncomfortable number of people will latch onto bad faith arguments if it gives them someone to pick on. Keep your guards up for now, everyone--I wouldn't want to see it happen to you next.

So...what do we do now? There must be some way we can take the connections we've made here and put them to use instead of parting ways for good. I wouldn't want everything we've done here to end up meaningless.
 

Cosmic77

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And so, here we are, left out in the cold again. Everything we saw will probably never be recognized or acknowledged. By the time the next Smash game comes around, the spotlight will have long passed--such is the fate of a franchise that cycles in new characters every few years. It always hurts, realizing all the effort you put into something no longer matters.

Whether Sakurai and the rest truly believed Sword & Shield didn't deserve a newcomer or simply because there were other priorities, we likely won't ever know for sure. Though I have a sinking feeling the former will be what spreads, used as leverage against anyone who supported any character from Galar. An unfortunate truth I've had to learn is that an uncomfortable number of people will latch onto bad faith arguments if it gives them someone to pick on. Keep your guards up for now, everyone--I wouldn't want to see it happen to you next.

So...what do we do now? There must be some way we can take the connections we've made here and put them to use instead of parting ways for good. I wouldn't want everything we've done here to end up meaningless.
I wouldn't beat myself too much over it. Despite what a majority of people would say, Pokémon are some of the hardest characters to support. One, because Sakurai almost never has enough time to process which Pokémon are most popular. Two, because there's almost never only one or two Pokémon that make sense; we're usually looking at several options that all make sense to some degree.

Like I said before, Smash doesn't dictate whether or not a specific game or Pokémon is good, and it doesn't magically make fans love the games it references. It also doesn't accurately depict the Pokémon franchise in general (if the two Kalos stages still being the most recent Pokémon stages wasn't a good indication of that already.) Regardless of whether or not Zacian, Zamazenta, or any other Gen 8 Pokémon got in, fans would probably have the same opinions of Galar regardless. Smash doesn't always change things for the better. If anything, they'd probably hold a petty grudge against the new Pokémon they added, much like how many people are still a little salty over Corrin, Byleth, and Incineroar "stealing" a slot from someone deemed more worthy.

Not getting either of these two still burns, and I'm sure a lot of "I told you so!" comments are coming (likely regarding Spirits). Just ignore them. How many times has the fanbase been wrong over Ultimate's life. No one is really in a position to look down on someone else for their predictions, because I'm sure at some point or another, they were completely wrong as well. Only thing we can do going forward is take these experiences with us as we speculate for future Gens and Smash games.
 

Noipoi

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Well, it’s a bit of a shame. I guess gen 8 will go the way of gen 3/5 and not have a character at all. But y’know, that’s just the way it is. I’m not gonna be mad about it.

You guys tried your best, with both Lycanroc and the legendary wolves. Don’t despair, Y’know. Appreciate the good times you had.

Whenever smash six rolls around, and gen 9 or 10 is in full swing…

I look forward to seeing you guys supporting the newest lupine Pokémon :nifty:
 

LukeRNG

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I do wonder how many years it'll be for a supposed new smash game.
In a way I kinda wish Ultimate was the last, cause where do you go from there?
  • Port it over and add to it: I feel it'd be a nightmare to do licensing & time wise.
  • Cut a lot of fighters, maybe half of it: Do they focus more on 1st parties or 3rd parties for newcomers & veterans? (either way many won't be happy).

I'm personally hoping the next smash focuses more on 1st parties given how Ultimate focused more on 3rd parties. Though a few 3rd parties wouldn't hurt.
I was thinking of some ideas for "replacing" certain fighters with others from the same set of games for the sake of variety & experimentation. Like take out Lucario and add Garchomp for example (or Incineroar for another alola pokemon, etc.). Cause I feel keeping some of the same veterans for every single game can get tiresome.
 
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Delzethin

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I do wonder how many years it'll be for a supposed new smash game.
In a way I kinda wish Ultimate was the last, cause where do you go from there?
  • Port it over and add to it: I feel it'd be a nightmare to do licensing & time wise.
  • Cut a lot of fighters, maybe half of it: Do they focus more on 1st parties or 3rd parties for newcomers & veterans? (either way many won't be happy).
Whichever form Smash 6 takes, it won't be able to one-up Ultimate's roster in scope. It'll need something that allows it to stand out and appeal to potential players on its own terms, whether that be its own newcomers, changes to returning veterans, new mechanics, new single-player content, or who knows what else. Building atop Ultimate just isn't feasible, so it'll need to focus on building alongside Ultimate, if that makes any sense.


Meanwhile, the newest episode of Evolutions went up earlier today:

 

LukeRNG

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I wouldn't mind discussing someday about the roster of pokemon characters for the next smash game.

There's so many directions it could take I feel there's a lot that can be discussed:
  • Which pokemon stay & which have to leave? I feel it wouldn't hurt to part ways with Jigglypuff for at least 1 game given how often I see people groan seeing Jigglypuff instead of another pokemon (and we know Sakurai had considered cutting Ness & Jigglypuff in the past).
  • Is there hope for older gens to get a rep with enough popular demand or Sakurai looking over all the pokemon for a fun moveset idea?
  • Will pokemon spin-offs finally get some love with a character, like Mystery Dungeon?
  • For returning pokemon who could get a moveset overhaul?
  • Will we ever get another Pokemon Trainer character and who would it be?
  • What other pokemon stages could be added from unrepresented generations or spin-offs?
But of course it wouldn't be fleshed out until the next gen console is a thing.
 
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LukeRNG

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1633749918733.png

Crazy that this is real. Can't begin to imagine how much work it must've taken to do all the development & licensing.


mewtwo and inceneroar
Huh, what reason do you have for Mewtwo? I get Incineroar, but why Mewtwo?
 
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Delzethin

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Less to talk about now. Hopefully we can keep the thread going for a while longer yet.

I wouldn't mind discussing someday about the roster of pokemon characters for the next smash game.

There's so many directions it could take I feel there's a lot that can be discussed:
  • Which pokemon stay & which have to leave? I feel it wouldn't hurt to part ways with Jigglypuff for at least 1 game given how often I see people groan seeing Jigglypuff instead of another pokemon (and we know Sakurai had considered cutting Ness & Jigglypuff in the past).
  • Is there hope for older gens to get a rep with enough popular demand or Sakurai looking over all the pokemon for a fun moveset idea?
  • Will pokemon spin-offs finally get some love with a character, like Mystery Dungeon?
  • For returning pokemon who could get a moveset overhaul?
  • Will we ever get another Pokemon Trainer character and who would it be?
  • What other pokemon stages could be added from unrepresented generations or spin-offs?
But of course it wouldn't be fleshed out until the next gen console is a thing.
  • Hard to say yet, but I think Pikachu, Lucario, and Greninja are 100% safe to stick around. Pokémon Trainer may be most likely after them. The remaining three are on shaky ground, though--wouldn't be surprised if Incineroar and either Mewtwo or Jigglypuff (or both) get benched next game.
  • I wouldn't count on it, unfortunately. Priority will always go to whichever generation has the spotlight at the moment. Only exception I could see is if they bring in two Pokémon newcomers next game and one is someone notable from Gen 10(?) while the other is a new, prominent regional variant of someone from a previous generation.
  • Hard to say. I don't think we can bet on a newcomer from a spinoff, but maybe secondary content like music or spirits (or whatever Smash 6's counterpart is).
  • That'll depend on the dev team's priorities. Jigglypuff definitely could use some retooling if she doesn't sit the next game out, and I wouldn't mind Lucario getting some tweaks to feel less like a gimmick and more like a footsies-based fighter who just happens to also get rewarded for surviving at high percents.
  • Depends on if they were willing to intrude on the current Trainer's niche...and if they were willing to tie three new 'mons into one fighter again.
  • As with newcomers, we're best off expecting new stages to come from the most recent generation. Though Smash 4 did introduce two new stages, so maybe one from the prior generation could sneak in...or one from a notable spinoff? Who knows, maybe Pokkén 2 is a thing by then and Ferrum Stadium II or the like manages to make the jump.
 

Cosmic77

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I think the next Smash game will be like the first four — heavy emphasis on new content rather than bringing back old content. We'll probably get a ton of new stages and more newcomers than Ultimate's base roster.

I also think we'll see a lot of cuts, mostly from third-parties. The main reason why we were able to get so many third-parties in Ultimate is because the DLC was sold separately, and those sales what helped pay for those characters. But now? Paying for 18 or so third-party characters, getting all the legalities sorted out, and adding more on top of them? I don't think they could do it without eating a lot of the base game budget. Probably for the best if they use DLC spots for bringing back some third-parties.

Pokémon should be fine. Bare minimum, the Smash 4 roster should be here to stay (and the other two PT Pokémon). Pichu is a relatively easy character to make, but clones have been given less priority in the past. Could go either way. I can already tell Incineroar will be the Pokémon everyone predicts will be cut, but honestly, I think he's safe. Most of the previous cuts were clone characters, complicated characters, or characters with licensing issues. We don't have many examples of Sakurai outright cutting characters for being outdated.

As for new content, I think SwSh still has a chance to get a stage. If Gen 9 comes out in 2023, then Gen 10 might not debut until 2026 or 2027. Roughly eight to nine years after Ultimate launched. That's probably around the time we'll have a new console in our hands and a new Smash game in the works. It might not make it in time, in which case we might get stages for both Gen 8 and Gen 9 (Aside from the first game and Ultimate, every Smash game has had at least two new Pokémon stages). I highly doubt we'll ever be lucky enough to get two Pokémon newcomers, but on the off chance that we do, who knows? Maybe we'll see Sakurai go back to Galar.
 

fogbadge

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I think the next Smash game will be like the first four — heavy emphasis on new content rather than bringing back old content. We'll probably get a ton of new stages and more newcomers than Ultimate's base roster.

I also think we'll see a lot of cuts, mostly from third-parties. The main reason why we were able to get so many third-parties in Ultimate is because the DLC was sold separately, and those sales what helped pay for those characters. But now? Paying for 18 or so third-party characters, getting all the legalities sorted out, and adding more on top of them? I don't think they could do it without eating a lot of the base game budget. Probably for the best if they use DLC spots for bringing back some third-parties.

Pokémon should be fine. Bare minimum, the Smash 4 roster should be here to stay (and the other two PT Pokémon). Pichu is a relatively easy character to make, but clones have been given less priority in the past. Could go either way. I can already tell Incineroar will be the Pokémon everyone predicts will be cut, but honestly, I think he's safe. Most of the previous cuts were clone characters, complicated characters, or characters with licensing issues. We don't have many examples of Sakurai outright cutting characters for being outdated.

As for new content, I think SwSh still has a chance to get a stage. If Gen 9 comes out in 2023, then Gen 10 might not debut until 2026 or 2027. Roughly eight to nine years after Ultimate launched. That's probably around the time we'll have a new console in our hands and a new Smash game in the works. It might not make it in time, in which case we might get stages for both Gen 8 and Gen 9 (Aside from the first game and Ultimate, every Smash game has had at least two new Pokémon stages). I highly doubt we'll ever be lucky enough to get two Pokémon newcomers, but on the off chance that we do, who knows? Maybe we'll see Sakurai go back to Galar.
if nothing else the pair of them will probably come out of pokeballs. as for cuts, with the pokemon who can you cut? gen 1 gets special treatment and lucario and greninja were voted the two most popular. im not sure we'll see pichu again and for inceneroar its hard to say. though id be fine with him getting the boot. its a shame gen 8 by all accounts is gonna miss out as it had some great pokemon. though i didnt fancy any of their chances anyway
 
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