The King of Klones (the Ganon character design thread)

[TheTrueCorrectGuy]

If only it was so simple... knowing Sakurai being a bit senstive to critisism he would proabaly not like that. But maybe it would inspire him to do it. Maybe Hyrule Warriors Ganon also inspired him... we have a while to wait to find out though...

But I really gave up hope on Sakurai when it comes to Ganondorf. I hope for a new director that takes characters cannon into account and isn't so biased and tries to add fan favorite characters from popular Nintendo series, and a director that wont go out of his way to make the game less technical/competitive.

Well, beginning with "there are multiple things wrong here" and that "the Sparta kick doesn't mean ****" are aggressive in tone. Also, I never justified why Ganondorf is the way he is, instead I was pointing out how Ganondorf slowly is gaining moves from Zelda and has moves that are characteristic to him like Flame Choke.

Ganondorf's dashing animation was just weird since it was the Capt.'s but slower. In Brawl and SSB4, it's more like a regular person jogging compared to everyone else, especially Mega Man's and Fox's ninja run, Shiek's "I have idea what she's doing", and Marth's "lean in and die". Seriously, if I saw someone like Marth run up to me like that I would either boot his head or grab something pointy and let him run into it.

Ganondorf's jog doesn't translate well. If he ran faster, but with this form or a form closer to running than jogging. I think it'd be okay, but he moves slow and it just seem out of place. Hyrule Warriors had him do sort of a mad, berserker, blood-rush, "you gon' die" sprint.

I think Sakurai wanted Ganondorf to reflect the mighty glacier archetype of a slow moving, but incredibly powerful character. If his dash speed was slow, but sinister, I don't think it would have been that bad like if it was just a faster version of his run animation - there's like walk, run, and dash, right?

I think Sakurai prioritized Bowser because one, he's completely misrepresented since Melee and still is to this day - his voice is still from Mario Kart 64. So, Bowser looks more kid-friendly like in his actual games instead of whatever Godzilla reject. At least Ganondorf looks like Ganondorf and has moves that are what Ganondorf would do rather than the violent, "I'mma keel" you thing Bowser had for 2 games.

Ganondorf began in concept as something I would say might have caused Ike to become a semi-clone, but things happened and he became a Captain Falcon clone, then became a failed representation of a mighty glacier, and is now a fixed mighty glacier.

Link is more like Link with his backflips and Jump Attack. That's Link. Sheik definitely fits the sneaky ninja theme, but Ganondorf and Zelda are just hanging there. Sure, Ganondorf's powerful, but he's lacking Dead Man's Volley, still is based on the Capt., and for some, lacking his sword. As for Zelda, sure, she's a mage, but really? She never used Din's Fire, Farore's Wind, and Nayru's Love. The only move that she actually uses is Light Arrow while the others had to be made up.

Hear me out on this one: Sakurai technically isn't a first-party developer, but he works for Nintendo like how Insomniac Games don't belong to Sony, but work on Ratchet & Clank a first-party game Insomniac began. He knows what's going on like how he knew about Greninja and picked him for SSB4. In theory, he probably knows about future plans and knows about Zelda Wii U's early concept. Now, let's assume Ganondorf and Zelda are in Zelda Wii U. Knowing that, what if Ganondorf and Zelda are much more different and much more bad*** in Zelda Wii U?

Nintendo would be against having any evidence of them in SSB4, but had SSB4 been released after Zelda Wii U, then I wouldn't doubt that Ganondorf and Zelda would be based on that along with Link. So, Sakurai would be in a dilemma: fix Link, Ganondorf, and Zelda from Brawl or make them more like the current lore, Twilight Princess, and have most if not all of that effort never come back again.

Let's say Zelda Wii U is the last, big Zelda game on Wii U before another console comes out or before like 5 years later when another Zelda game comes out. Link would be more like an archer so, SSB5 would probably make Link an even better ranger. Lets say Zelda uses a staff and for no reason at all, only water magic in Zelda Wii U. Great, all that work giving her a rapier and making her specials all based on light magic is never coming back until way, way later. As for Ganondorf, let's say he's like a technological revolutionary who uses a magical - gotta stay kid-friendly here - hand cannon and saber. Great! All that work giving him a massive sword and now Ganondorf's a freaking pirate or musketeer.

So, Sakurai could have done something, but let's say doing so makes the game delayed or consumes time for two other characters meaning two less on the roster. Oh, but quality over quantity. Let's say those two are Ike and Shulk. Knowing people, they would be ****ed. Oh, and let's not mention the asinine issue where for whatever stupid reason, despite Nintendo knowing that SSB is a beloved franchise, Sakurai always, ALWAYS has to start from scratch because there aren't any data centers housing past game data. REALLY, NINTENDO?! I can understand deleting SSB64 or really old games, but Brawl which is still somewhat recent and where Sakurai could have easily referenced if there was a data center and maybe just copied and pasted animations, stages, etc. and update them?

I'm not a developer, but having the ability to reference like that would have been tremendously helpful. Nope, gotta let Sakurai waste himself re-creating characters, stages, and such and anger fans because character were caught since they would take to long to recreate. SHOULD I mention that there are "perfect" characters? Characters who's move set and play style just click like I don't know... Marth, Fox, Ike, Mario, Luigi, Peach, Captain Falcon, Triple D, Meta Knight - it'd just be unbreaking him -, Pikachu, Jigglypuff, Dr. Mario, and more. Maybe it's misquoted or misunderstood, but still.

The other thing is work ethic. Japan's work ethic is simply put, bad. Sick? Work harder. Stressed out? Work harder. Funeral? Work harder. Onset of insanity? Work harder. Look up hikikomori. They're NEETs who live in their homes and don't do stuff because Japan's societal pressure is extreme.

Sure, this means that Japan's games tend to be less glitchy and more polished, but that also means the death of them and if you haven't noticed, but stress does things to you like makes you irritable which might explain why Hideki Kamiya will snap at people or why Sakurai's health is deteriorating and why he might never return for SSB. It also explains why tons of people leave Capcom to form their own development studios that are a mix of western and eastern work ethic.

For me, since Zelda is ever changing compared to Mario, Animal Crossing, Donkey Kong, and even Metroid - it's mostly weapons and suit designs -, that's one issue which I will suspect Zelda Wii U will involve major or noticeable changes to the trio. Two, data which might be misquoted or Sakurai's work code of starting from scratch which isn't bad, but it's incredibly taxing because three, work ethic. Add time mismanagement, budgets, and conflicts and we know why Ganondorf is the way he is.

Next time SSB is developed, they better have more than just Sakurai if he even comes back, Sora Ltd. and some other company. It'd be better if they just had Sakurai, Sora Ltd., 5-10 members of each franchise's development team even if they're just concept designers, writers, etc., the third-party devs like Sega, Namco, and hell, why not have Nintendo work it out? You'd have the main team, people who know the franchises and can offer advice on representation, and the workforce.

It's just really weird for a massive game like this to only have such a small team. I know there are small teams that make giant games, but fighting games tend to be another beast.

I mostly agree here, but I just want to point out that Sakurai probably wasn't influenced at all by the Wii U Zelda or it's Ganondorf. Sakurai has said that he truly believes this is his last Smash Bros. game, so I don't think he'd be planning for another Smash Bros. game or it's incarnation of Ganondorf. Sakurai hates sequels, so for him to hold off on his current game due to plans for the future is uncharacteristic of him.

Sakurai also has explicitly said that Ganondorf is meant to be tired and worn out looking. Makes no sense to me. I don't get why he didn't have him do some mighty berserker run like you said or just something more elegant than what he has. He looks like some middle aged man who's late for work after eating a box of donuts. It's stupid. I do think it's likely that this is more a planning error than laziness. I mean, how many joke characters do we need in this game? Maybe instead making Dark pit and giving him a completely new Final Smash, you could do something cool with Ganondorf. Or better yet, instead of giving Palutena 8 other completely different custom moves you could have decloned Ganon a bit.

 

[Ffamran]

I mostly agree here, but I just want to point out that Sakurai probably wasn't influenced at all by the Wii U Zelda or it's Ganondorf. Sakurai has said that he truly believes this is his last Smash Bros. game, so I don't think he'd be planning for another Smash Bros. game or it's incarnation of Ganondorf. Sakurai hates sequels, so for him to hold off on his current game due to plans for the future is uncharacteristic of him.

Sakurai also has explicitly said that Ganondorf is meant to be tired and worn out looking. Makes no sense to me. I don't get why he didn't have him do some mighty berserker run like you said or just something more elegant than what he has. He looks like some middle aged man who's late for work after eating a box of donuts. It's stupid. I do think it's likely that this is more a planning error than laziness. I mean, how many joke characters do we need in this game? Maybe instead making Dark pit and giving him a completely new Final Smash, you could do something cool with Ganondorf. Or better yet, instead of giving Palutena 8 other completely different custom moves you could have decloned Ganon a bit.

Yes, but Sakurai does take other games into consideration. If he didn't then Mario would have never had FLUDD, Luigi wouldn't have the Poltergust 5000, Link wouldn't have his Jump Attack, and Greninja would have never made it in.

Well, considering what happened to both Wind Waker and Twilight Princess Ganondorf, I think what he meant by "tired and worn out" is more in like Ganondorf's tired of (Toon) Link's, Zelda's, and, to an extent, Sheik's ****. I mean, both were trapped and prevented from taking over Hyrule. Wind Waker Ganon, however, was more emotionally worn out since he wasn't as passionate, but wiser, cynical, and methodical with his actions, but when he fights, he means business. Twilight Princess Ganondorf looks worn out which is better seen in SSB4 with his tattered cape and scar. Emotionally, TP Ganondorf is ****ed off, so he's much more savage and upfront about taking out his opponents. He is, however, somewhat more cautious, but intimidating as shown in the duel against Link. Move set-wise, I still say it shows Ganondorf's power, but animation-wise, yes, there's some out of place things.

To me, there's only one joke character and that's Pichu. Everyone else doesn't fit that bar. There are guest characters and everyone else who include retro characters. Luigi's not a joke character, but more of a quirky, humorous character. If he was a joke character like Dan, then he'd have to be really weak except for something like his Super Jump Punch. Same goes with Duck Hunt who's more humorous(ly obnoxious).

Ignoring Ganondorf's dash animations - I still think him using the Capt.'s dash in Melee is silly -, Ganondorf's anything but a joke. You laugh and you get a boot to the face.

 

[Yoshi Kirishima]

Ganondorf shouldn't get a new moveset.

Why?

1) It's really boss
2) It's based on falcon's, one of the series' most beloved fighters and movesets, and
3) It has Ganon-y details added

Sorry

 

[TheTrueCorrectGuy]

Yes, but Sakurai does take other games into consideration. If he didn't then Mario would have never had FLUDD, Luigi wouldn't have the Poltergust 5000, Link wouldn't have his Jump Attack, and Greninja would have never made it in.

Well, considering what happened to both Wind Waker and Twilight Princess Ganondorf, I think what he meant by "tired and worn out" is more in like Ganondorf's tired of (Toon) Link's, Zelda's, and, to an extent, Sheik's ****. I mean, both were trapped and prevented from taking over Hyrule. Wind Waker Ganon, however, was more emotionally worn out since he wasn't as passionate, but wiser, cynical, and methodical with his actions, but when he fights, he means business. Twilight Princess Ganondorf looks worn out which is better seen in SSB4 with his tattered cape and scar. Emotionally, TP Ganondorf is ****ed off, so he's much more savage and upfront about taking out his opponents. He is, however, somewhat more cautious, but intimidating as shown in the duel against Link. Move set-wise, I still say it shows Ganondorf's power, but animation-wise, yes, there's some out of place things.

To me, there's only one joke character and that's Pichu. Everyone else doesn't fit that bar. There are guest characters and everyone else who include retro characters. Luigi's not a joke character, but more of a quirky, humorous character. If he was a joke character like Dan, then he'd have to be really weak except for something like his Super Jump Punch. Same goes with Duck Hunt who's more humorous(ly obnoxious).

Ignoring Ganondorf's dash animations - I still think him using the Capt.'s dash in Melee is silly -, Ganondorf's anything but a joke. You laugh and you get a boot to the face.

I know that Ganondorf isn't a joke character. What I meant there was that the development time of other characters who could be considered jokes could have gone to Ganondorf. Wii fit trainer, Jigglypuff, Rob, arguably duck hunt dog. I also don't think power makes Ganondorf's moveset any more fitting. Sure, it shows power, but there's way more to Ganondorf than just having power.

 

[TheTrueCorrectGuy]

Ganondorf shouldn't get a new moveset.

Why?

1) It's really boss
2) It's based on falcon's, one of the series' most beloved fighters and movesets, and
3) It has Ganon-y details added

Sorry

Yeah, we've been over this probably 20 times in this thread. Would it kill you to just read it or do you really need everyone to reexplain what they've already explained?

 

[MagiusNecros]

Ganondorf shouldn't get a new moveset.

Why?

1) It's really boss
2) It's based on falcon's, one of the series' most beloved fighters and movesets, and
3) It has Ganon-y details added

Sorry

I would be sorry too if my imagination reached that far.

 

[Folt]

I know that Ganondorf isn't a joke character. What I meant there was that the development time of other characters who could be considered jokes could have gone to Ganondorf. Wii fit trainer, Jigglypuff, Rob, arguably duck hunt dog. I also don't think power makes Ganondorf's moveset any more fitting. Sure, it shows power, but there's way more to Ganondorf than just having power.

Power is Ganondorf's most consistent trait over all games. That and using dark magic which he also does. Besides, over time, he's basically gone from clone to semi-clone, and making the moveset he took feel like "Yes, Ganondorf could definitely fight like this in his main games if the developers were inspired by this instead of the other way around".

Also, none of those characters you mentioned feel like jokes, since they were never meant to be jokes (except Jigglypuff in 64, but even that incarnation felt less like a joke once you got familiar with her traits and eventually was developed like a real character for every Smash game since). They might be funny or quirky, but they're not jokes and I dare you to say that in the characters' respective forums.

 

[PhantomShab]

As much as I want an actual Ganondorf moveset, I know by now that it'll never happen as long as Sakurai is directing. I was hopeful for Falcondorf to be a thing of the past in Brawl, and in Smash 4 before those leaks of him happened, but nope. I'm done being hopeful and I'm done having my hopes crushed. Ganondorf will just be one of my favorite villains in gaming, who I'll never give a crap about using in Smash Bros. *sigh*

It's just hard to believe they can make a move set for duck hunt and wii fit trainer with little to no reference material but Ganondorf who has multiple games to choose from has a move set of a character who you never saw outside of his vehicle

Agreed 100%.

Besides Palutena's Guidance mentioned multiple Ganon's.

Palutena is also wrong, and so is Sakurai. All the Ganondorf/Ganon's in the series have all been the same guy, except for the Ganon in Four Swords Adventures. That Ganon was actually a reincarnation.

First Zelda game at least.

Hyrule Warriors is not a Zelda game.

 

[MagiusNecros]

HW is a Zelda game just not a mainline Zelda game. It's a pure spinoff separate from Zelda canon. A damn shame too. Because Volga the best.

We already know Sakurai/Palutena is wrong, referring to Ganondorf as Ganon already gave that away.

 

[TheTrueCorrectGuy]

Power is Ganondorf's most consistent trait over all games. That and using dark magic which he also does. Besides, over time, he's basically gone from clone to semi-clone, and making the moveset he took feel like "Yes, Ganondorf could definitely fight like this in his main games if the developers were inspired by this instead of the other way around".

Also, none of those characters you mentioned feel like jokes, since they were never meant to be jokes (except Jigglypuff in 64, but even that incarnation felt less like a joke once you got familiar with her traits and eventually was developed like a real character for every Smash game since). They might be funny or quirky, but they're not jokes and I dare you to say that in the characters' respective forums.

Honestly, I hear this all the time. Enough with this "Power" nonsense. Power doesn't mean jack ****. Smash Bros. is about characters having movesets that are inspired from the games they hail from. Ganondorf has power, but who gives a ****? He doesn't fight by punching and kicking and elbowing, why should he in Smash Bros. Just because he has "power" doesn't mean he's being properly represented. He doesn't even use power in the manner you describe, he uses his power for magic, not physical strength. And no, recolored Captain-falcon fire doesn't cut it.

Honestly, it's like giving Zelda a moveset where she throws books and saying "It's showing her wisdom", or making Rosalina throw lunchboxes around and drive a mini van and saying "It's shows how she's a mother", or making Duck hunt dog throw woopie cushions and clowns because "It represents that he's comical". I could go on. I don't give a **** is some deep reflection of someone's personality trait can be interpreted from a moveset, I care if I feel like I'm playing as a great character from a videogame.

 

[TheTrueCorrectGuy]

Ganondorf shouldn't get a new moveset.

Why?

1) It's really boss
2) It's based on falcon's, one of the series' most beloved fighters and movesets, and
3) It has Ganon-y details added

Sorry

Lol, so basically your reasons why he's awesome are

1. He's Boss (Not really a reason, just you restating what you're about to "explain")
2. He's a clone
3. He's not a complete clone.

That's like saying it's fun to get shot in the arm because

1. It's fun
2. It really hurts
3. But at least you're not getting shot in the head!

 

[Folt]

Honestly, I hear this all the time. Enough with this "Power" nonsense. Power doesn't mean jack ****. Smash Bros. is about characters having movesets that are inspired from the games they hail from. Ganondorf has power, but who gives a ****? He doesn't fight by punching and kicking and elbowing, why should he in Smash Bros. Just because he has "power" doesn't mean he's being properly represented. He doesn't even use power in the manner you describe, he uses his power for magic, not physical strength. And no, recolored Captain-falcon fire doesn't cut it.

Honestly, it's like giving Zelda a moveset where she throws books and saying "It's showing her wisdom", or making Rosalina throw lunchboxes around and drive a mini van and saying "It's shows how she's a mother", or making Duck hunt dog throw woopie cushions and clowns because "It represents that he's comical". I could go on. I don't give a **** is some deep reflection of someone's personality trait can be interpreted from a moveset, I care if I feel like I'm playing as a great character from a videogame.

He did in fact kill a Sage in Twilight Princess using nothing but his hands. So there actually is precedence for that.

And why doesn't it mean jack-**** in this case? Ganondorf is power. Almost everything he does displays power. Smash is no different.

 

[Aenglaan]

It's been 13 years since Melee was released. We've had at least 3 games that could have been used as a basis for a new moveset. If Bowser and Z. Samus can completely change, I don't think there should be an issue with suggesting that Ganondorf actually resemble his appearance in the Zelda series. Some of his moves like his f-tilt I think should stay, but others like just about everything else should be completely reworked.

 

[TheTrueCorrectGuy]

He did in fact kill a Sage in Twilight Princess using nothing but his hands. So there actually is precedence for that.

And why doesn't it mean jack-**** in this case? Ganondorf is power. Almost everything he does displays power. Smash is no different.

I just had the biggest facepalm when you justified an entire moveset by a move Ganondorf does in a cutscene. Really? A person being executed who basically is weaponless and has to act as fast as possible kill someone with his bare hands, buying him time to pull a Sword from his chest. Are you ****ing kidding me? And people say using the Melee intro to justify resizing Ridley is bad. You're using a single move that he never uses ever again to tell me that Ganondorf, Master of Dual Swords, Broadswords, Tridents, witchcraft, necromancy etc. should use his hands for a fighting game because he attacked using his hands for a split second during an execution scene. What? No... Just no. You falcondorf fans are like Sonic fans meshed with Ridley believers (disclaimer: I want Ridley), just scrounging any tiny piece of evidence to justify something extreme. Dude, make a good point or leave.

And I swear to god if you tell me his Sparta Kick justifies his entire moveset...

 

[Sykkamorre]

So the sparta kick justifies the whole moveset.

 

[TheTrueCorrectGuy]

So the sparta kick justifies the whole moveset.

Would Mario's punching and kicking in 64 justify making him a falcon clone?
No. Same with Ganondorf.

 

[Ffamran]

It's been 13 years since Melee was released. We've had at least 3 games that could have been used as a basis for a new moveset. If Bowser and Z. Samus can completely change, I don't think there should be an issue with suggesting that Ganondorf actually resemble his appearance in the Zelda series. Some of his moves like his f-tilt I think should stay, but others like just about everything else should be completely reworked.

ZSS technically didn't completely change. She more or less went the same route as what Ganondorf, Falco, and Luigi did in Brawl or Melee for Luigi or Sheik and Zelda in SSB4 where they gained different moves. For reference ZSS in Brawl had like 2 tether grabs and Up Smash looked like Up Special. Great for mind games, but horrible in a sense it sort of felt like a cheap way to design moves unlike Sonic who's similarly looking moves function and move differently. That being said, there are people who complain about her being misrepresented as well including Samus who uses the Other M Varia Suit which in my opinion looks fine. It's really streamlined and still looks like her Power Suit which hey, guess what? Was finally changed since Brawl. It took them 3 games to update Samus. THREE GODD- *gets dragged off and sedated... again*

Seriously, Brawl should have had Samus in her Prime 2 and 3 - same design - Varia Suit which hey, looks pretty much the same as the Super Metroid suit minus the bulge and bulky design.

I just had the biggest facepalm when you justified an entire moveset by a move Ganondorf does in a cutscene. Really? A person being executed who basically is weaponless and has to act as fast as possible kill someone with his bare hands, buying him time to pull a Sword from his chest. Are you ****ing kidding me? And people say using the Melee intro to justify resizing Ridley is bad. You're using a single move that he never uses ever again to tell me that Ganondorf, Master of Dual Swords, Broadswords, Tridents, witchcraft, necromancy etc. should use his hands for a fighting game because he attacked using his hands for a split second during an execution scene. What? No... Just no. You falcondorf fans are like Sonic fans meshed with Ridley believers (disclaimer: I want Ridley), just scrounging any tiny piece of evidence to justify something extreme. Dude, make a good point or leave.

And I swear to god if you tell me his Sparta Kick justifies his entire moveset...

The Sparta kick justi- *get clobberized into little giblets by TheTrueCorrectGuy*

 

[TheTrueCorrectGuy]

A warlock is a subset of a wizard, yes. But Ganondorf calls forth magic from himself/ triforce. The general wizard conception DOES use a medium to channel magic: tome, staff, wand, while Warlocks are generally seen as "More powerful wizards." Most people speculate Ganondorf wanted a better life for the Gerudo, and in order to do that, he would have to seize the lands of Hyrule. So in a sense, he did want a better life for his people, the Gerudo. Either that, or he was just overly manipulative and was just plain evil from the beginning, which I don't believe at all.

What? Witchcraft IS another word for magic. >.>;;
Ganondorf is a manipulative villain. But you misunderstand me. I say his fighting style. In Twilight Princess, he attacks with high power (and punishable cooldown) which shows his fighting style fits a punishment plus force style, rather than finesse. He may not use magic or swords (or maybe his powers pump up his power) in Smash but his style is still represented. Up in your face, waiting for an attack and hitting you right in the face. He relies on FORCE after punishing your mistake.

Ike and Marth have similarities to their respected games. I won't deny that. Marth's stats focus more on speed and skill, which shows his finesse with the sword. Shield breaker is a similar design based off a thrust in fencing. And counter is a "counterattack." Basically, he's a fencing variant of his game canon self (with astra, which he couldn't learn ingame) Ike focuses on HP/Attack/ Speed. With decent defenses. In Smash, he's strikingly slower than what you'd expect, with a large attack power. One might expect his fighting style to be more similar to a Berzerker, who has high attack and endurance (heavy weight).

Lastly, I understand that you want him to be better represented. But you did start the Sakurai issue, claiming that you can't "wait until Sakurai's out of office." Doesn't seem like you like him very much. Or at least his decisions. He's emotionally attached to Ganondorf, seeing him as a representation of his father. If the next director, if any, respects Sakurai, high chance we'll still be getting a Falcondorf.

I didn't read all of this, sorry, I'll maybe do it later. However, there's no rule stating wizards have to use tomes or staves. As I said before Merlin, the most icnonic Wizard in mythology doesn't use a channel for his magic. Done.

 

[Folt]

I just had the biggest facepalm when you justified an entire moveset by a move Ganondorf does in a cutscene. Really? A person being executed who basically is weaponless and has to act as fast as possible kill someone with his bare hands, buying him time to pull a Sword from his chest. Are you ****ing kidding me? And people say using the Melee intro to justify resizing Ridley is bad. You're using a single move that he never uses ever again to tell me that Ganondorf, Master of Dual Swords, Broadswords, Tridents, witchcraft, necromancy etc. should use his hands for a fighting game because he attacked using his hands for a split second during an execution scene. What? No... Just no. You falcondorf fans are like Sonic fans meshed with Ridley believers (disclaimer: I want Ridley), just scrounging any tiny piece of evidence to justify something extreme. Dude, make a good point or leave.

And I swear to god if you tell me his Sparta Kick justifies his entire moveset...

Let's put it like this: Ganondorf kills someone. And it is not by sword. That is a pretty good display of sheer power right there and shows how brutal and relentless he is. Also, the current Smash Ganondorf manages to be a rather good reflection of how the Ganondorf in the Zelda games is: Powerful, evil, user of dark magic, brutal and slow. He sees your mistake and he punishes you for it, but if he messes up, others can take advantage of it like in the series he's from. He doesn't need to wield a sword to stay true to his style.

I didn't read all of this, sorry, I'll maybe do it later. However, there's no rule stating wizards have to use tomes or staves. As I said before Merlin, the most icnonic Wizard in mythology doesn't use a channel for his magic. Done.

The magic of Wizards typically take the form of spells, whether they're channeled with a tome or wand or without. The magic of warlocks, while tending towards darkness, is rather more... versatile in terms of how the specific warlock uses them, and the rules for such power tend to be different from normal spellslinging. Ganondorf doesn't really fit in the category of a spell user due to how he employs his powers, so he isn't a "true" wizard.

 

[MagiusNecros]

I wish Ganondorf played like the Warrior Mage we all know him to be. But at the end of the day King Dedede got the Deadman's Volley.

 

[Ffamran]

I wish Ganondorf played like the Warrior Mage we all know him to be. But at the end of the day King Dedede got the Deadman's Volley.

Hey look! I found Ganondorf in his early day.

 

[MagiusNecros]

That doesn't look like a Gerudo.

 

[Ffamran]

That doesn't look like a Gerudo.

It was supposed to be a joke...


Red Mages are the cross between warriors and mages in Final Fantasy. They wear red, the Triforce of Power is associated with the color red, Ganondorf's got red hair, this guy - I think it's a guy - has red hair, and Red Mages are known for using swords like Ganondorf is, but they also use magic fairly often as well. Plus, Red Mages are generally fast or decent-speed for a Job in Final Fantasy and Ganondorf is fast in his games as well.

 

[MagiusNecros]

I didn't find your joke that amusing. Since Red Mages never master end tier Magic. Unlike Ganondorf. Who pretty much could run the Black Wizard template with Great Swords. Kinda like Golbez or ExDeath.

 

[Ffamran]

I didn't find your joke that amusing. Since Red Mages never master end tier Magic. Unlike Ganondorf. Who pretty much could run the Black Wizard template with Great Swords. Kinda like Golbez or ExDeath.

Meh, Final Fantasy doesn't even have that sort of class... Plus, I did mention young Ganondorf.

The only thing I can think of for Ganondorf would be like an offensive variant of the Paladin who's tanky, has (more) offensive magic instead of healing and defensive magic, and is capable of using two-handed weapons since I don't think Paladins in FF can use two-handed weapons. I think FFXIV: A Realm Reborn actually made the Dark Knight into this, so their version of the Dark Knight isn't a "blood magic" and weapons Job. There is the Rune Knight who only appeared in a couple of FF games that does seem to fit Ganondorf.

Zelda if she had a sword would be the equivalent to the Samurai "Job" in vanilla XIII. That or a Mystic Knight. Those Jobs are really good with both magic and swordplay in contrast to the Red Mage who's just a Jack of All Trades Master of None. Hyrule Warriors despite being non-canon and Twilight Princess do imply that Zelda has a strong mastery of magic and swordplay, but can't tank stuff like Ganondorf or Link. Otherwise, Zelda would be a Red Mage. Regular Zelda is like a White or Black Mage.

Link would be... er... a Freelancer. Link is the epitome of Jack of All Trades, but unlike a Red Mage, he can potentially master everything. Skyward Sword Link is close to a Mystic Knight even though there isn't a magic bar, Twilight Princess Link is like a Sword Saint, Knight, or even a Gladiator because of the Hidden Skills taught to him that makes him an amazing swordman, and Zelda Wii U makes Link look like a ranger. Now, let's add the fact that Link can use any item at his disposal making him a Chemist, Machinist, and more.

Anyway I digress... Yay off-topics!

 

[MagiusNecros]

When it comes to Job Classes I always go back to DnD 3.5 because that one is the best.

 

[Xinc]

I didn't read all of this, sorry, I'll maybe do it later. However, there's no rule stating wizards have to use tomes or staves. As I said before Merlin, the most icnonic Wizard in mythology doesn't use a channel for his magic. Done.

Is Merlin or any adaptation of him a Nintendo video game character? We're going by Nintendo logic here.

 

[Ffamran]

Is Merlin or any adaptation of him a Nintendo video game character? We're going by Nintendo logic here.

Nintendo logic... Do I need to say anything about what's wrong with this?

 

[TheTrueCorrectGuy]

Let's put it like this: Ganondorf kills someone. And it is not by sword. That is a pretty good display of sheer power right there and shows how brutal and relentless he is. Also, the current Smash Ganondorf manages to be a rather good reflection of how the Ganondorf in the Zelda games is: Powerful, evil, user of dark magic, brutal and slow. He sees your mistake and he punishes you for it, but if he messes up, others can take advantage of it like in the series he's from. He doesn't need to wield a sword to stay true to his style.



The magic of Wizards typically take the form of spells, whether they're channeled with a tome or wand or without. The magic of warlocks, while tending towards darkness, is rather more... versatile in terms of how the specific warlock uses them, and the rules for such power tend to be different from normal spellslinging. Ganondorf doesn't really fit in the category of a spell user due to how he employs his powers, so he isn't a "true" wizard.

Why is everyone coming up with these bull**** rules for wizards. First off Ganondorf doesn't use spells? I'm pretty sure at the beginning of Ocarina of Time, it's said that Ganondorf put a death "curse" on the great deku tree. I know this gonna go to "A curse isn't a spell!!!!!". Curses are considered evil spells along with hexes, so don't give me that ****. Secondly, Agahnim is explicitly referred to as a wizard, and he has the same magical capabilities as ganondorf. He does shout incantations, he just summons energy and shoots it. He doesn't use any tomes or staves either. Gandalf is an incredibly iconic wizard, and when he casts spells he doesn't shout incantations. Merlin is a wizard, he doesn't channel is power through other means of magic. And even if you argue that Merlin doesn't exist and that Wizards must channel their magic through something, Ganon uses the triforce. "Nope, in Ocarina of time-" Ganondorf survives being stabbed through the gut because of the triforce of power in twilight Princess. But the worst thing here is that this is all bull****. A wizard doesn't ned a tome or a spell or wand. Just because most wizards have those things doesn't mean that you can't be a wizard without them a wizard by definition, and I quote this, is : a man who has magical powers, especially in legends and fairy tales.

There, that's it. Argument sealed. Ganondorf is a wizard, and a warlock, and a necromancer. I'm done with this silly wizard argument. Honestly people, get the **** over it. He's a goddamn wizard.

And what you said about his physical move didn't make any good points. Sure he's capable of fighting physically, but I'm pretty sure Little Mac would be capable of going to some gun shop, buying a gun, and capably owning every other fighter with it. Ganondorf does one insignificant physical move after being stripped of his abilities, and so what? You know, in boxing, which is a punch-based sport, boxers will occasionally grab and push their opponents. So does this mean that making a moveset for a boxer where he just grabs and pushes people is fittign and valid? No. It doesn't. Ganondorf has ***** slapped a 12 year old, used a physical move when it was his only option, and kicked during a swordfight? So does that give valid reason to take a wizard/swordfighter/trident weilder and make him a physical fighter? I don't think it does. Just because "Teh Powah" can be shown doesn't mean anything.

He's not even a "slow" fighter in game. He's agile even when old as seen in windwaker. I know he's slow for balancing, but did they have to make it look like he's having a stroke when he dashes? (Sakurai said this was intentional). And finally, if he was a physical fighter, he wouldn't even fight like he does in Smash Bros. Ganondorf doesn't use brute force when he fights. He uses well timed parries and powerful, yet well timed blows with his blade. In Smash Bros. he's like the hulk or something, just some tank. That's not how he is in Zelda?

So in Smash Bros. Ganondorf is the slow, weary, fist-fighting, brute
In Zelda he is the agile, eloquent, swordfighting, warlock/wizard
He's not who he is in Zelda, he's just not.

 

[MagiusNecros]

If you replaced Falcondorf with Deathborn from F-Zero then Deathborn would already fit in and be in canonical point of reference.

 

[TheTrueCorrectGuy]

Is Merlin or any adaptation of him a Nintendo video game character? We're going by Nintendo logic here.

I'm pretty sure that there was no Nintendo wizard before Ganon, so I don't understand why using Merlin is invalid.

 

[Xinc]

I'm pretty sure that there was no Nintendo wizard before Ganon, so I don't understand why using Merlin is invalid.

*shrugs* Since Nintendo's the one actually making the movesets, you have to appeal to them. In other words, appealing to their logic.

 

[Hexaped]

Hello everyone. I think Ganondorf remains with a chance for more moveset changes. I simply don't think we'll see them soon. It is already implied the team lacked sufficient time with the latest game, since Lucas and Wolf are missing. I think Ganondorf only received minor visual tweaks because the team was too busy tweaking the fighters they prioritized. Anyway, I hope a lack of time won't be a problem for Ganondorf if we ever get another SSB. However, the developers may be OK with Ganondorf as he is now. Either way, I am relatively OK with Ganondorf's current moveset,and we can always have fun imagining a unique Ganondorf moveset.

 

[MagiusNecros]

Hello everyone. I think Ganondorf remains with a chance for more moveset changes. I simply don't think we'll see them soon. It is already implied the team lacked sufficient time with the latest game, since Lucas and Wolf are missing. I think Ganondorf only received minor visual tweaks because the team was too busy tweaking the fighters they prioritized. Anyway, I hope a lack of time won't be a problem for Ganondorf if we ever get another SSB. However, the developers may be OK with Ganondorf as he is now. Either way, I am relatively OK with Ganondorf's current moveset,and we can always have fun imagining a unique Ganondorf moveset.

He's had two dev cycles to change. He won't. Ever.

 

[Folt]

Why is everyone coming up with these bull**** rules for wizards. First off Ganondorf doesn't use spells? I'm pretty sure at the beginning of Ocarina of Time, it's said that Ganondorf put a death "curse" on the great deku tree. I know this gonna go to "A curse isn't a spell!!!!!". Curses are considered evil spells along with hexes, so don't give me that ****. Secondly, Agahnim is explicitly referred to as a wizard, and he has the same magical capabilities as ganondorf. He does shout incantations, he just summons energy and shoots it. He doesn't use any tomes or staves either. Gandalf is an incredibly iconic wizard, and when he casts spells he doesn't shout incantations. Merlin is a wizard, he doesn't channel is power through other means of magic. And even if you argue that Merlin doesn't exist and that Wizards must channel their magic through something, Ganon uses the triforce. "Nope, in Ocarina of time-" Ganondorf survives being stabbed through the gut because of the triforce of power in twilight Princess. But the worst thing here is that this is all bull****. A wizard doesn't ned a tome or a spell or wand. Just because most wizards have those things doesn't mean that you can't be a wizard without them a wizard by definition, and I quote this, is : a man who has magical powers, especially in legends and fairy tales.

There, that's it. Argument sealed. Ganondorf is a wizard, and a warlock, and a necromancer. I'm done with this silly wizard argument. Honestly people, get the **** over it. He's a goddamn wizard.

And what you said about his physical move didn't make any good points. Sure he's capable of fighting physically, but I'm pretty sure Little Mac would be capable of going to some gun shop, buying a gun, and capably owning every other fighter with it. Ganondorf does one insignificant physical move after being stripped of his abilities, and so what? You know, in boxing, which is a punch-based sport, boxers will occasionally grab and push their opponents. So does this mean that making a moveset for a boxer where he just grabs and pushes people is fittign and valid? No. It doesn't. Ganondorf has ***** slapped a 12 year old, used a physical move when it was his only option, and kicked during a swordfight? So does that give valid reason to take a wizard/swordfighter/trident weilder and make him a physical fighter? I don't think it does. Just because "Teh Powah" can be shown doesn't mean anything.

He's not even a "slow" fighter in game. He's agile even when old as seen in windwaker. I know he's slow for balancing, but did they have to make it look like he's having a stroke when he dashes? (Sakurai said this was intentional). And finally, if he was a physical fighter, he wouldn't even fight like he does in Smash Bros. Ganondorf doesn't use brute force when he fights. He uses well timed parries and powerful, yet well timed blows with his blade. In Smash Bros. he's like the hulk or something, just some tank. That's not how he is in Zelda?

So in Smash Bros. Ganondorf is the slow, weary, fist-fighting, brute
In Zelda he is the agile, eloquent, swordfighting, warlock/wizard
He's not who he is in Zelda, he's just not.

Magic doesn't work the same way in all stories that feature magic, and some stories even have magic work differently depending on the type of magic and who wields it. Also, a curse is not a spell: Curses can be implemented through spells, but a curse isn't a spell in and off itself so it can be implemented through other methods.

Also, Agahnim is said to use an "unknown" form of magic. The fact is that they pointed out it's different from others means magic in the Zelda world is not all the same. As for why Ganon took the form of a wizard and acted as such: He didn't want to give himself away with his usual abilities (and/or he wasn't able to use his usual abilities either, he was sealed away after all) so he took a form to mask his intentions.

As I said in my previous post, he killed someone with his bare hands. Also, he did it in one hit. That pretty much shows Ganondorf as brutal and with raw power on his side, even when stripped of his magic and weapons. He also crushes an artifact that contains powerful dark magic used by an ancient civilization with his bare hands as well. Also, Ganondorf has used his fists to channel his magic before (like smashing the floor) and to bounce it, which indicate that he's also trained to fight with his fists too. He only uses the sword near the end of the games he appears in (in OoT, it's he wields them as Ganon).

Also, as a villain, Ganondorf is relentless and takes advantage of every opportunity he gets, and the consequences will be disastrous for his opponents. His slow, brutal fighting style makes the person playing him do the exact same thing against his opponents. Heck, even in the games he basically had free reign until Link got strong enough to confront him, so describing him as a tank or as a juggernaut would not be far off either.

 

[Sykkamorre]

Meh, Final Fantasy doesn't even have that sort of class... Plus, I did mention young Ganondorf.

The only thing I can think of for Ganondorf would be like an offensive variant of the Paladin who's tanky, has (more) offensive magic instead of healing and defensive magic, and is capable of using two-handed weapons since I don't think Paladins in FF can use two-handed weapons. I think FFXIV: A Realm Reborn actually made the Dark Knight into this, so their version of the Dark Knight isn't a "blood magic" and weapons Job. There is the Rune Knight who only appeared in a couple of FF games that does seem to fit Ganondorf.

Zelda if she had a sword would be the equivalent to the Samurai "Job" in vanilla XIII. That or a Mystic Knight. Those Jobs are really good with both magic and swordplay in contrast to the Red Mage who's just a Jack of All Trades Master of None. Hyrule Warriors despite being non-canon and Twilight Princess do imply that Zelda has a strong mastery of magic and swordplay, but can't tank stuff like Ganondorf or Link. Otherwise, Zelda would be a Red Mage. Regular Zelda is like a White or Black Mage.

Link would be... er... a Freelancer. Link is the epitome of Jack of All Trades, but unlike a Red Mage, he can potentially master everything. Skyward Sword Link is close to a Mystic Knight even though there isn't a magic bar, Twilight Princess Link is like a Sword Saint, Knight, or even a Gladiator because of the Hidden Skills taught to him that makes him an amazing swordman, and Zelda Wii U makes Link look like a ranger. Now, let's add the fact that Link can use any item at his disposal making him a Chemist, Machinist, and more.

Anyway I digress... Yay off-topics!

So Link is an Onion Knight?

 

[_Magus_]

This is still going on?? Wow.

Ganondorf may not be portrayed well by magical standards in Smash, but you can't deny that his playstyle is just evil.
I've made one of my friends (you know who you are!) run into the bathroom out of rage after some matches. We now refer to these occasions as the "bathroom rage incidents." XD XD

(He literally dropped his controller and ran screaming into the bathroom. It was hilarious.)

 

[TheTrueCorrectGuy]

Magic doesn't work the same way in all stories that feature magic, and some stories even have magic work differently depending on the type of magic and who wields it. Also, a curse is not a spell: Curses can be implemented through spells, but a curse isn't a spell in and off itself so it can be implemented through other methods.

Also, Agahnim is said to use an "unknown" form of magic. The fact is that they pointed out it's different from others means magic in the Zelda world is not all the same. As for why Ganon took the form of a wizard and acted as such: He didn't want to give himself away with his usual abilities (and/or he wasn't able to use his usual abilities either, he was sealed away after all) so he took a form to mask his intentions.

As I said in my previous post, he killed someone with his bare hands. Also, he did it in one hit. That pretty much shows Ganondorf as brutal and with raw power on his side, even when stripped of his magic and weapons. He also crushes an artifact that contains powerful dark magic used by an ancient civilization with his bare hands as well. Also, Ganondorf has used his fists to channel his magic before (like smashing the floor) and to bounce it, which indicate that he's also trained to fight with his fists too. He only uses the sword near the end of the games he appears in (in OoT, it's he wields them as Ganon).

Also, as a villain, Ganondorf is relentless and takes advantage of every opportunity he gets, and the consequences will be disastrous for his opponents. His slow, brutal fighting style makes the person playing him do the exact same thing against his opponents. Heck, even in the games he basically had free reign until Link got strong enough to confront him, so describing him as a tank or as a juggernaut would not be far off either.

I honestly cannot actually think you read my post. There is so much stuff you didn't even mention. Seriously dude, if you're gonna try to make a point, read the post you're replying to. It's getting really old how for some reason on Smash Boards people onyl respond to select parts of what you have to say and ignore everything else.

 

[Sykkamorre]

I honestly cannot actually think you read my post. There is so much stuff you didn't even mention. Seriously dude, if you're gonna try to make a point, read the post you're replying to. It's getting really old how for some reason on Smash Boards people onyl respond to select parts of what you have to say and ignore everything else.

Welcome to the internet.

I'd give up at complaining if I were you.

 

[Folt]

I honestly cannot actually think you read my post. There is so much stuff you didn't even mention. Seriously dude, if you're gonna try to make a point, read the post you're replying to. It's getting really old how for some reason on Smash Boards people onyl respond to select parts of what you have to say and ignore everything else.

I honestly don't actually think you've read mine either.