The King of Klones (the Ganon character design thread)

[LancerStaff]

When's the last time you played him? He's one of the best characters in the game now after the patch that buffed his C1 and 6.

I'm aware of those, (if I'm remembering the C6 correctly,) but he's still not any good against bosses or anything larger then a generic mook for that matter. I believe his gameplan consists of storing up charge away from danger and running back to use it on your enemy and repeating. It's safe but pretty slow... Outside of that, not much.

I dunno man. HW tier list looks like Spin to win, VOLGA NATION, Ganon C1 pound, Dominatrix stomp, and Fierce Deity rage mode.

Ganon's C1 since a patch like a few months ago makes his C1 invincible and you can dodge/dash out of it.

Also Ganondorf + Hasty Attacks is the truth.

Zant? Eh... Still think he's terrible outside of the infinite spin glitch. (Unless they fixed that?) Fierce Deity doesn't seem so great either.

Everybody gets Hasty Attacks though. Although not everybody gains the same amount... Lana with the book gets ridiculous for one.

 

[Rialdospaldacht]

I'm aware of those, (if I'm remembering the C6 correctly,) but he's still not any good against bosses or anything larger then a generic mook for that matter. I believe his gameplan consists of storing up charge away from danger and running back to use it on your enemy and repeating. It's safe but pretty slow... Outside of that, not much.

C5 right when the Weak Point opens up -> C1 -> C3s tends to take out every boss.

And for officers... he's one of the best characters. C3 (which does a huge chunk of damage) -> whatever keeps them in the air a while, or a lazy route of C1 -> two dodge-cancelled C4s (which you can pull off before they reorient themselves) to charge the meter again -> C1 destroys everything. It's very fast, and no running away required. And between the safety and power of his C1 and 6, the only character better at multiple officer situations is Young Link in FS. And if you know attacks well enough, letting off a C1 on a Weak Point destroys the enemy like you wouldn't believe, between the hit itself and the subsequent Darkness-boosted WPS.

But this is getting quite off-topic.

 

[MagiusNecros]

Ganon in HW against most enemies can C2 > Dodge Cancel > Full standard combo and do that until they are dead. And can extend that same combo with a boomerang.

What really makes him shine against elite officers is the invincible C1 since it does massive damage, breaks guard, and makes Ganon completely invincible.

Boss strategy is to go in with a full Darkness meter, make the weak point gauge pop up, C5 > C1 >C3/Musou attack and then it breaks.

Officers you can probably break with a full C2 combo.

Keep clearing and general mook clearing is C6. And with keeps you can stand outside the base and still clear the keep. Range is that huge.

Ganon is really good now. Lots of utility as opposed to before.

But yeah sorry for being offtopic. I do like my musou games.

 

[Quillion]

BTW, I don't want to make it seem like I'm bitchin about Zelda's representation, just drawing a comparison. Though (similarly to how I feel about Ganondorf) I would like it if her alt specials did take into account a few of the things I mentioned like a long chargable spell similar to Thoron that could stun people like the move she uses on Ganon at the end of Ocarina of Time or the ability to put smaller versions of those Triforce Mines on the ground.

That's just one thing; how about all this stuff? (yes even I can switch to Devil's Advocate mode)

• Why doesn't Mario use a hammer even though he generally uses it for melee attacks in more games than just punching (which was just SM64)? Where's the people complaining there?
• Why does Ness have one bat move and Lucas one stick move? Yes, people complain that Ganondorf has only one sword custom move, but no one complains about them.
• Bowser is associated with Dark Magic, too (summoning meteors, shooting lightning in the SMG1 prologue, . Why doesn't he use magic?
• How come Diddy can use his Peanut Popgun for an effective spacing tool while DK is denied his powerful Coconut Gun?
• Why doesn't Wario have Wario Land abilities (okay people do complain about that, but not nearly to the same extent)
• Why are Mewtwo's psychic abilities purple? Shouldn't they be pink like in Pokémon?
• Why does Fox have Human Torch and Flash Step abilities? Makes no sense.

 

[Quillion]

-Ike and Marth are pure swordfighters. Tink and Link have projectiles which make up 50% of their playstyle, thus defining them as the staple campy characters of smash. That's a huge distinction, and the comparison isn't fair in any sense.

-Greninja and Shiek actually DO play fairly similarly. Both have solid combos and great projectile options, solid recoveries that can be mixed up well, and potent edgeguarding tools. Greninja just has to play more opportunistically due to his worse frame data- if his was more in line with Shiek's, they'd be extremely similar in terms of playstyle, not to mention viability.

-Fox's lasers and Zss paralyzer shots serve very different purposes, and the spacie doesn't have an Up Special that can be used oos and kill off the top at ridiculously low percents. Though they're both quick fighters that like to get in hard on you, combo you and kill you off the top, their differences stem from how they employ different methods of doing so.

Ganon and Ike don't really have these kinds of distinctions going for them if you suddenly just handed Ganon a sword. Conceptually, they have similar qualities- they're both slow and not very mobile, with linear recoveries that are easy to break, but making up for this in their raw damage output. As it is now, most differences in their playstyle stem from the fact that Ike has that huge disjoint and Ganon doesn't.

Which is why I was going for Ganon having only a few sword moves in contrast to Ike's full swordfighting style. Also, I don't see Ike equipped with a useful command grab for punishing shielding that can easily chain on good reads.

Honestly, I'm not opposed to Ganon getting changed at a core level if it comes down to it, but a change as mundane as handing the King of Darkness a giant butter knife is...boring, quite frankly. We're talking about rebuilding him from the ground up, why limit yourself to something as simple as this when there are so many possibilities?

We were talking about how we can keep most aspects of Falcondorf while giving him a sort of Pit-like treatment to make him reflect more recent games (just focused more on normals than specials).

 

[MagiusNecros]

Why does Ftilt feel more like a Jab and why does Jab feel like an Ftilt?

 

[Codaption]

Which is why I was going for Ganon having only a few sword moves in contrast to Ike's full swordfighting style. Also, I don't see Ike equipped with a useful command grab for punishing shielding that can easily chain on good reads.

Alright, that's pretty fair. Didn't quite catch what you meant, I guess, and of course Flame Choke is an important distinction. Though even if it were to stay, it wouldn't do much to change a theoretical Ikedorf's playstyle other than improving it.

We were talking about how we can keep most aspects of Falcondorf while giving him a sort of Pit-like treatment to make him reflect more recent games (just focused more on normals than specials).

Thing is, a change this drastic really would change Ganon quite a bit, even if at a basic level he's still quite similar. If somebody can find a way to revamp him without severely affecting how he plays now, that'd be absolutely fantastic, but... I just don't see it happening. That's where I'm coming from on this.

 

[Jotari]

That's just one thing; how about all this stuff? (yes even I can switch to Devil's Advocate mode)

• Why doesn't Mario use a hammer even though he generally uses it for melee attacks in more games than just punching (which was just SM64)? Where's the people complaining there?
• Why does Ness have one bat move and Lucas one stick move? Yes, people complain that Ganondorf has only one sword custom move, but no one complains about them.
• Bowser is associated with Dark Magic, too (summoning meteors, shooting lightning in the SMG1 prologue, . Why doesn't he use magic?
• How come Diddy can use his Peanut Popgun for an effective spacing tool while DK is denied his powerful Coconut Gun?
• Why doesn't Wario have Wario Land abilities (okay people do complain about that, but not nearly to the same extent)
• Why are Mewtwo's psychic abilities purple? Shouldn't they be pink like in Pokémon?
• Why does Fox have Human Torch and Flash Step abilities? Makes no sense.

Hell Mario's most defining feature, the other main attack move in all of his RPG games, the ability to damage enemies by jumping on them is completely missing. Neither his down aerial nor any of his specials are a stomp attack. He was once known as Jump Man for crying out loud! Many characters are missing major aspects of their moveset yet it's Ganondorf who gets the full brunt of it purely because he was introduced as an outer series clone. I think if he was a Zelda clone as I suggested above, people wouldn't have nearly as many issues with him.

The Ness and Lucas point is really good. For those that haven't played Mother, the bat (and stick) is Ness' (and Lucas') main weapon in the game. It's how he does his standard attack. Logically it should make up the entirety of his A moveset in the same way Math uses a Sword. But they decided to change it to just a forward smash in order to make it a more diverse move (giving it the reflection property and in general making the bat look like an intimidating weapon). In Smash Ness uses the Yoyo more than the Bat which isn't even a weapon exclusive to him (additionally the other non character exclusive weapon, the Slingshot, is entirely missing). Instead he uses very generic psychic attacks that have little to no basis in Earthbound and his specials (except PK Flash which works very differently) are all taken from another character. Even Ness' signature attack, the one that you can name and obtain in plot relevant events, PK Rockin is completely absent from his moveset, not even so much as making it in as a Final Smash. On the whole Ness does take inspiration from his games, but if you analyze it move for move, animation for animation, Ganondorf probably has more attacks he actually used in his games than Ness does. Of course Ganondorf has more to work with having multiple 3D appearances but there are still significant things Ness doesn't do that are associated with him. The Teleporting run move is another one, showing up only in his entrance and the Melee intro but not even hint of it in his actual moveset.

 

[Clock Tower Prison]

Hell Mario's most defining feature, the other main attack move in all of his RPG games, the ability to damage enemies by jumping on them is completely missing. Neither his down aerial nor any of his specials are a stomp attack. He was once known as Jump Man for crying out loud! Many characters are missing major aspects of their moveset yet it's Ganondorf who gets the full brunt of it purely because he was introduced as an outer series clone. I think if he was a Zelda clone as I suggested above, people wouldn't have nearly as many issues with him.

The Ness and Lucas point is really good. For those that haven't played Mother, the bat (and stick) is Ness' (and Lucas') main weapon in the game. It's how he does his standard attack. Logically it should make up the entirety of his A moveset in the same way Math uses a Sword. But they decided to change it to just a forward smash in order to make it a more diverse move (giving it the reflection property and in general making the bat look like an intimidating weapon). In Smash Ness uses the Yoyo more than the Bat which isn't even a weapon exclusive to him (additionally the other non character exclusive weapon, the Slingshot, is entirely missing). Instead he uses very generic psychic attacks that have little to no basis in Earthbound and his specials (except PK Flash which works very differently) are all taken from another character. Even Ness' signature attack, the one that you can name and obtain in plot relevant events, PK Rockin is completely absent from his moveset, not even so much as making it in as a Final Smash. On the whole Ness does take inspiration from his games, but if you analyze it move for move, animation for animation, Ganondorf probably has more attacks he actually used in his games than Ness does. Of course Ganondorf has more to work with having multiple 3D appearances but there are still significant things Ness doesn't do that are associated with him. The Teleporting run move is another one, showing up only in his entrance and the Melee intro but not even hint of it in his actual moveset.

To me this just seems like you are saying because Ganondorf punches and kicks in his boss fights that his moveset is a great representation of his character.

 

[Jotari]

To me this just seems like you are saying because Ganondorf punches and kicks in his boss fights that his moveset is a great representation of his character.

I'm saying it's a lot more subtle than most but Ganondorf probably does take more directly from his games than half the cast does. And not justin his punches and kicks. The basic animations he uses from a lot of attacks come directly from his games some of them in such insane detail that nobody would notice if they didn't set out to analyze it. Like the twist they added to Dark Dive in Brawl coming from his leaping into the air animation in Twilight Princess that you will only see for a split second. Or the landing animation from his forward aerial being based on a scene from the manga. In terms of actually representing the character, Ganondorf has never had a set fighting style in the Zelda series. In his three appearances two of the three he used a weapon (and a very different style of weapon) and two out of three he used magic (with his magic use being pretty limited in Twilight Princess). And as beast Ganon sometimes he'd use a trident, sometimes he wouldn't, sometimes he'd swap it out in the middle of battle and in one case he used two trident like swords. I think the character should take from his games and I believe Ganondorf does. Should he take more? Yes, he should. But I don't think it should compromise his preexisting moveset. Especially since custom specials are now a thing. They can easily give him (and hopefully the rest of the cast) Palutena style customs that are diverse. He already has a sword, give him a trident throwing/warping special, a pound and an energy projectile and viola you have everything he's ever done without actually removing or changing a single thing (though I do maintain his down smash should be changed).

 

[MagiusNecros]

Can we start with a complete 3d model?

 

[PaperMoonKing]

Well here are some changes I think he should have

Fsmash - can incorporate his sword (he doesn't have to be a sword user just make it a little more useful outside of a taunt)
NSpecial - can be his magic volley from Oot (chargeable)
USpecial - can be phantom ganon painting teleport from Oot
SSpecial - can stay the same no probs on that
SSpecial - can be his fist Shockwave from Oot, he'll just punch the ground when grounded and when airborne he rushes down and it has a tripping effect if your not quite out of the Shockwave's reach

Other than that he can keep everything else

 

[Theosmeo]

Make his Fsmash shoot a laser out of his shiny sword scar

100% legit accurate to TP

 

[Quillion]

I think if he was a Zelda clone as I suggested above, people wouldn't have nearly as many issues with him.

Actually, if he were a Mewtwo clone, people wouldn't have any issue with him either despite them being unrelated.

Think about it: Throws balls of energy, reflects projectiles, teleports, blasts energy from hands...

WHY WASN'T THIS GANONDORF'S MOVESET IN THE FIRST PLACE?

You know what: maybe it's because Ganondorf using magic would make him a lightweight wimp because apparently Smash has to follow the RPG convention of mages being easy to kill. Mewtwo being light just barely makes sense; Ganondorf being light would be unacceptable. So I'll draw the line there; I wouldn't want Ganondorf to be light just so he could be canon.

 

[Jotari]

Actually, if he were a Mewtwo clone, people wouldn't have any issue with him either despite them being unrelated.

Think about it: Throws balls of energy, reflects projectiles, teleports, blasts energy from hands...

WHY WASN'T THIS GANONDORF'S MOVESET IN THE FIRST PLACE?

You know what: maybe it's because Ganondorf using magic would make him a lightweight wimp because apparently Smash has to follow the RPG convention of mages being easy to kill. Mewtwo being light just barely makes sense; Ganondorf being light would be unacceptable. So I'll draw the line there; I wouldn't want Ganondorf to be light just so he could be canon.

The reason it wasn't his moveset is because the model they had for Ganondorf (from, the Space World demo) wouldn't have worked with Mewtwo (or Zelda). Falcon was pretty much the only character it would work with so they decided to go with him. If it wasn't so easy to do they wouldn't have put Ganondorf in there in the first place.

 

[Quillion]

The reason it wasn't his moveset is because the model they had for Ganondorf (from, the Space World demo) wouldn't have worked with Mewtwo (or Zelda). Falcon was pretty much the only character it would work with so they decided to go with him. If it wasn't so easy to do they wouldn't have put Ganondorf in there in the first place.

Yes, I know that. It's just that you suggested a clone option that would be more canon, and I suggested an even better clone option that would be even MORE canon.