The King of Klones (the Ganon character design thread)

[Frostwraith]

It is simply baffling that fans of a game series create a more dynamic character that respects the character and the game series it came from then Masahiro Sakurai did who basically just slapped on something quick and called it a night.

I really don't understand.

Plenty of reasons:
1. Fans who mod games have all the time in the world to make content. Sakurai has a schedule to meet.
2. Ganondorf's status as a Captain Falcon clone stems from specific circumstances during Melee's development (the whole thing of having ported Ganondorf's model from the tech demo and it working best with Falcon's animations).
3. Sakurai not giving Ganondorf any special treatment in regards to decloning characters, retaining the overall base concept, just chaning some moves and animations. Likely to save development time, tying with point 1 above.

I'm pretty sure Sakurai is capable of doing a faithful Ganondorf. He would have done so if he hadn't put him in Melee as a clone. Consider the work put into characters like Mega Man, Pac-Man, Shulk, Robin, Mario, Bowser Jr., Ryu or even the other Zelda characters, especially Link and Zelda. Speaking of Link, he is now.even more faithful thanks to the addition of the jump attack. Zelda got a move based on Spirit Tracks replacing the transformation.

This extends to even other elements like stages, Assist Trophies, enemies or items. The Zelda series content overall is very faithful to the original games, barring some creative liberties. Ghirahim uses his sword and shoots knives just like in his boss battles, Tingle does his Kooloo-limpah randomness, the enemies in Smash Run are all recognizable and faithful to their original games (ReDeads stun you, Peahats spawn larvae, Octoroks hide when getting close, Darknuts have their armor torn apart), items like the Deku Nuts, Bombchu or the Fairy Bottle have their unique mechanics preserved.

Stages like Gerudo Valley with the cameo of Koume and Kotake recreating the Spirit Temple boss battle and the breakable bridge being repaired by the Song of Time, Bridge of Eldin with King Bulblin appearing and the portal to restore the bridge when broken or the Temple stage being a homage to the dungeons in Zelda II.

Sakurai knows well the Zelda series, so it's not like he can't make a faithful Ganondorf. It's just that he's reluctant to change him and gives him the same treatment as other veteran characters: change some moves and animations, but overall remains the same. At least, he gave him a Ganon Final Smash, which is really a no-brainer.

I believe Sakurai is limiting himself by clinging to what he did in Melee's development (which frankly made sense at the time considering the tight development cycle the game had). I don't know what are his reasons to keep Ganondorf as is, but he ought to have some reason, especially considering the faithfulness of the rest of the Zelda content can only come from someone who has played the games.

However, having the moveset as is makes Ganondorf easier to develop: animations can be ported due to sharing moves with Falcon, the fact he's got a established moveset means there's no need to go through a design phase as it's been done in previous Smash games. Perhaps, this is one Sakurai's reasons, but who knows? I'm just speculating.

All in all, I think he still remains a semi-clone of Falcon due to a combination of the circumstances behind his addition in Melee and Sakurai's general philosophy of not completely changing movesets. Characters like Bowser, Zero Suit Samus, Pit and Roy may have gotten significant changes, but there's still a large resemblance to their previous movesets: the overhauls they got are not too different from the treatment Ganondorf got from Melee to Brawl, with several new moves and animations. There were also veterans to have gotten a handful of new moves, though not to the extent of the aforementioned characters, such as Peach, Olimar, Zelda, Sheik or Charizard.

Of course, Ganondorf could have gotten a similar treatment this time around, but he remained with the same moves like the good chunk of the veterans in this game, including Mario, Ike, Marth, Pikachu, Fox, Jigglypuff, Toon Link and plenty of others. I should note that I'm not accounting for balance adjustments and move proprieties, which have overall changed for all returning characters and are still being revised through balance patches.

Though it's not like Ganondorf's abilities aren't showcased in Smash. They are, but they're just very subtle rather than being part of the moveset at its core, so they end up being forgettable. Teleportation is shown briefly during the Final Smash, floating is shown briefly in his up taunt, the magic is limited to add to his physical moves and shown briefly during the grabs of the up and side specials. What I mean to say is: Ganondorf's abilities are there, but are very overshadowed by the cloned moveset, which can get frustrating, as it shows Sakurai does know Ganondorf's abilities from the Zelda series.

Anyway, that mod is rather impressive and the work should be commended. It would be hype to see Ganondorf like that in Smash, even though I don't really mind his current moveset.

(My apologies for the wall of text...)

 

[Codaption]

No worries, it's always fun to read through what people have to say. Especially one who's trying to play to both sides, something I generally try to do (with mixed results).

I will say that seeing people complain here about how Sakurai "hates" Ganon or LoZ as a whole gets rather annoying after a while. By no means is it everyone, but as was very thoroughly explained here Sakurai does know what he's doing as far as representing the franchise and cares about showing that fact. With that in mind, whining about Ganon getting shafted just....I dunno. It rubs me the wrong way.

 

[Clock Tower Prison]

Behold, what Ganondorf should've been from day one!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=szggXY8k99I

To skip the cinematic stuff and get straight to business, sword is at about 2:00, and magic is about 4:50

It'd need to be toned down, really, but ****. I'm now convinced more than ever that a sorcerer is what Ganondorf needed to be to start. That thing was pure beauty.

Dude if this comes in I would have to legit drop my mains and solely play The DARK KING.

 

[Jotari]

Plenty of reasons:
1. Fans who mod games have all the time in the world to make content. Sakurai has a schedule to meet.
2. Ganondorf's status as a Captain Falcon clone stems from specific circumstances during Melee's development (the whole thing of having ported Ganondorf's model from the tech demo and it working best with Falcon's animations).
3. Sakurai not giving Ganondorf any special treatment in regards to decloning characters, retaining the overall base concept, just chaning some moves and animations. Likely to save development time, tying with point 1 above.

I'm pretty sure Sakurai is capable of doing a faithful Ganondorf. He would have done so if he hadn't put him in Melee as a clone. Consider the work put into characters like Mega Man, Pac-Man, Shulk, Robin, Mario, Bowser Jr., Ryu or even the other Zelda characters, especially Link and Zelda. Speaking of Link, he is now.even more faithful thanks to the addition of the jump attack. Zelda got a move based on Spirit Tracks replacing the transformation.

This extends to even other elements like stages, Assist Trophies, enemies or items. The Zelda series content overall is very faithful to the original games, barring some creative liberties. Ghirahim uses his sword and shoots knives just like in his boss battles, Tingle does his Kooloo-limpah randomness, the enemies in Smash Run are all recognizable and faithful to their original games (ReDeads stun you, Peahats spawn larvae, Octoroks hide when getting close, Darknuts have their armor torn apart), items like the Deku Nuts, Bombchu or the Fairy Bottle have their unique mechanics preserved.

Stages like Gerudo Valley with the cameo of Koume and Kotake recreating the Spirit Temple boss battle and the breakable bridge being repaired by the Song of Time, Bridge of Eldin with King Bulblin appearing and the portal to restore the bridge when broken or the Temple stage being a homage to the dungeons in Zelda II.

Sakurai knows well the Zelda series, so it's not like he can't make a faithful Ganondorf. It's just that he's reluctant to change him and gives him the same treatment as other veteran characters: change some moves and animations, but overall remains the same. At least, he gave him a Ganon Final Smash, which is really a no-brainer.

I believe Sakurai is limiting himself by clinging to what he did in Melee's development (which frankly made sense at the time considering the tight development cycle the game had). I don't know what are his reasons to keep Ganondorf as is, but he ought to have some reason, especially considering the faithfulness of the rest of the Zelda content can only come from someone who has played the games.

However, having the moveset as is makes Ganondorf easier to develop: animations can be ported due to sharing moves with Falcon, the fact he's got a established moveset means there's no need to go through a design phase as it's been done in previous Smash games. Perhaps, this is one Sakurai's reasons, but who knows? I'm just speculating.

All in all, I think he still remains a semi-clone of Falcon due to a combination of the circumstances behind his addition in Melee and Sakurai's general philosophy of not completely changing movesets. Characters like Bowser, Zero Suit Samus, Pit and Roy may have gotten significant changes, but there's still a large resemblance to their previous movesets: the overhauls they got are not too different from the treatment Ganondorf got from Melee to Brawl, with several new moves and animations. There were also veterans to have gotten a handful of new moves, though not to the extent of the aforementioned characters, such as Peach, Olimar, Zelda, Sheik or Charizard.

Of course, Ganondorf could have gotten a similar treatment this time around, but he remained with the same moves like the good chunk of the veterans in this game, including Mario, Ike, Marth, Pikachu, Fox, Jigglypuff, Toon Link and plenty of others. I should note that I'm not accounting for balance adjustments and move proprieties, which have overall changed for all returning characters and are still being revised through balance patches.

Though it's not like Ganondorf's abilities aren't showcased in Smash. They are, but they're just very subtle rather than being part of the moveset at its core, so they end up being forgettable. Teleportation is shown briefly during the Final Smash, floating is shown briefly in his up taunt, the magic is limited to add to his physical moves and shown briefly during the grabs of the up and side specials. What I mean to say is: Ganondorf's abilities are there, but are very overshadowed by the cloned moveset, which can get frustrating, as it shows Sakurai does know Ganondorf's abilities from the Zelda series.

Anyway, that mod is rather impressive and the work should be commended. It would be hype to see Ganondorf like that in Smash, even though I don't really mind his current moveset.

(My apologies for the wall of text...)

I agree with everything here with one exception and that's the fact that Zelda pulls heavily from her own games when in fact she doesn't. Her case is remarkably similar to Ganondorf's yet is glossed over, I guess because she hasn't shown as much variety as Ganondorf or maybe just is liked more as a fighter/liked less as a character. But back in Melee the grand total of abilities Zelda had been shown was stunning/sealing enemies away and opening doors with magic.Unless one wants to take inspiration from her playable CD-I appearances. So for her A moveset in Smash they just gave her sparkly magic powers and called it a day. They gave her specials moves named after the Ocarina of Time spells, something she never even used and with the exception of Farore's Wind, worked very differently (though I think it would be interested to see a completely accurate Farore's Wind that lets you set up points to warp to on the stage). Din's Fire in Smash works a lot more like Bombos from A Link to the Past.

Since then she has very commonly been associated with the Light Arrows which they used as her Final Smash, similar to the way Ganondorf got something he was associated for his Final Smash. And she got a new special move inspired by a feature from her game just like Ganondorf got some attack redone. However like the King of Evil she has also been shown using a sword starting from The Wind Waker where Tetra has one on her person but more notable in Twilight Princess where you even have a boss battle with her using one. There she also exhibits there ability to place a mine like attack on the floor and throw balls of magic. Playing a harp is something she's shown to do since Ocarina of Time as Sheik (which is something I'm quite baffled never appeared in Sheik's moveset in someway since it's literally one of the only things Sheik's seen doing) and is now part of her main appearance since Skyward Sword. Yet with thee exception ot the final smash and down specials I've mentioned she's used the exact same moveset since Melee.

When it came to Hyrule Warriors, a game which has even more pressure to do the characters justice, these are exactly the things they used to construct Zelda's main moveset. Yet in Smash no one is crying out that she needs a sword to accurately resemble her in game appearance. Everyone is fine with the fact that she just uses magic, lightning and explosions, of which none of the animations are taken from her series and the basis of inspiration is "she can use magic", nothing more. If you analyze it move for move Ganondorf draws way more inspiration from his own series than Zelda does yet he gets way more flak for it, probably because he started off as a clone (and barely resembles one now). I wonder if people would be more fine with Ganondorf if his specials were like Zelda's and there were named after similar things from the Zelda series like the Thunder Spell from Zelda II for his recovery.

BTW, I don't want to make it seem like I'm bitchin about Zelda's representation, just drawing a comparison. Though (similarly to how I feel about Ganondorf) I would like it if her alt specials did take into account a few of the things I mentioned like a long chargable spell similar to Thoron that could stun people like the move she uses on Ganon at the end of Ocarina of Time or the ability to put smaller versions of those Triforce Mines on the ground.

 

[Rialdospaldacht]

I agree with everything here with one exception and that's the fact that Zelda pulls heavily from her own games when in fact she doesn't. Her case is remarkably similar to Ganondorf's yet is glossed over, I guess because she hasn't shown as much variety as Ganondorf or maybe just is liked more as a fighter/liked less as a character. But back in Melee the grand total of abilities Zelda had been shown was stunning/sealing enemies away and opening doors with magic.Unless one wants to take inspiration from her playable CD-I appearances. So for her A moveset in Smash they just gave her sparkly magic powers and called it a day. They gave her specials moves named after the Ocarina of Time spells, something she never even used and with the exception of Farore's Wind, worked very differently (though I think it would be interested to see a completely accurate Farore's Wind that lets you set up points to warp to on the stage). Din's Fire in Smash works a lot more like Bombos from A Link to the Past.

Since then she has very commonly been associated with the Light Arrows which they used as her Final Smash, similar to the way Ganondorf got something he was associated for his Final Smash. And she got a new special move inspired by a feature from her game just like Ganondorf got some attack redone. However like the King of Evil she has also been shown using a sword starting from The Wind Waker where Tetra has one on her person but more notable in Twilight Princess where you even have a boss battle with her using one. There she also exhibits there ability to place a mine like attack on the floor and throw balls of magic. Playing a harp is something she's shown to do since Ocarina of Time as Sheik (which is something I'm quite baffled never appeared in Sheik's moveset in someway since it's literally one of the only things Sheik's seen doing) and is now part of her main appearance since Skyward Sword. Yet with thee exception ot the final smash and down specials I've mentioned she's used the exact same moveset since Melee.

When it came to Hyrule Warriors, a game which has even more pressure to do the characters justice, these are exactly the things they used to construct Zelda's main moveset. Yet in Smash no one is crying out that she needs a sword to accurately resemble her in game appearance. Everyone is fine with the fact that she just uses magic, lightning and explosions, of which none of the animations are taken from her series and the basis of inspiration is "she can use magic", nothing more. If you analyze it move for move Ganondorf draws way more inspiration from his own series than Zelda does yet he gets way more flak for it, probably because he started off as a clone (and barely resembles one now). I wonder if people would be more fine with Ganondorf if his specials were like Zelda's and there were named after similar things from the Zelda series like the Thunder Spell from Zelda II for his recovery.

BTW, I don't want to make it seem like I'm bitchin about Zelda's representation, just drawing a comparison. Though (similarly to how I feel about Ganondorf) I would like it if her alt specials did take into account a few of the things I mentioned like a long chargable spell similar to Thoron that could stun people like the move she uses on Ganon at the end of Ocarina of Time or the ability to put smaller versions of those Triforce Mines on the ground.

I think it has a lot to do with, as of Melee, Zelda was known to be able to use magic. In Melee, she used magic. Cool.

As of Melee, Ganon was known to use magic and a trident. In Melee, he... punched people.

Since then, Ganon's also added a few different methods of swordplay and some more magic, where Zelda's done nothing new combat-wise outside of HW and adding Light Arrows, and they tend to not take much from things like the former for Smash inspiration.

Also the attacks from the boss battle in TP are Ganon's. She's possessed by him. One of them is even his signature move.

 

[Jotari]

I think it has a lot to do with, as of Melee, Zelda was known to be able to use magic. In Melee, she used magic. Cool.

As of Melee, Ganon was known to use magic and a trident. In Melee, he... punched people.

Since then, Ganon's also added a few different methods of swordplay and some more magic, where Zelda's done nothing new combat-wise outside of HW and adding Light Arrows, and they tend to not take much from things like the former for Smash inspiration.

Also the attacks from the boss battle in TP are Ganon's. She's possessed by him. One of them is even his signature move.

Well for one human form Ganon has never been seen wielding a trident when Melee came out (and unfortunately still hasn't). So unless one wants to make a moveset entirely around the sword in the short Space World Demo, the extent of Ganondorf abilities circa Melee are, he can use magic. Of course his version of magic was more explicitly shown and one can still take some inspiration from the other forms he had taken from that point. I think if they had the time and resources to make Ganondorf as a non clone in Melee he probably would have ended up quite like Zelda with short reaching but powerful magic moves. Ha, now I wonder how things would have went if they decided to clone him from Zelda instead. They could have made Din's Fire an electric ball, had dark magic around Farore's Wind like Phantom Ganon and made Nayru's Love like his Fire Bats from A Link to the Past. The only reason they didn't do that, aside from being tricker model reworking, is probably because Zelda didn't have a down special. That up special animation would also have looked a little too Princessy for him. Though I think my point is clear, if you had of changed those sparkles to dark magic then it would have been the mage Ganondorf everyone wants. The electrical and explosion attacks would have even made more sense for him than her.

I agree the Dead Man's Volley is something associated with Ganondorf but it isn't exclusive to him. The general term for it wasn't even used in relation to Ganon, instead named by the Diabolical Cubus Sisters from Phantom Hourglass. Other bosses throughout the series have used it including Vaati. Of course that's somewhat irrelevant. The important thing is that they are moves used by Zelda and thus we can associate them with her. If I was to guess I would say, with the possible exception of the levitation, they are her moves. The Dead Man's Volley does have the same electrical feature of Ganondorf's but overall I think it looks a lot more light based as is the large triforce mine. The battle is meant to be a Hybrid of them anyway so I think either character would be justified in taking inspiration from it, and we have seem inspiration for both characters, Hyrule Warriors lets user use all the TP moves alongside the sword (which I should mention is definitely not exclusive to the Ganon possession since we see her with it in another cutscene) and the video moveset linked in the last page uses the Triforce Mine as an attack for mage Ganon.

 

[MagiusNecros]

We need Phantom Ganon basically.

I guess many don't care about Zelda too much because Sheik exists. Even though Sheik only ever used a harp in OoT?

 

[jmanup85]

Warlock Ganon for life since that's what he's known for. Swordsman Ganon is just meh

 

[Rialdospaldacht]

Warlock Ganon for life since that's what he's known for. Swordsman Ganon is just meh

This. He's had 12 boss battles across the series, and used magic in 11 of them, though two weren't part of his attack pattern. Contrast using swords only 5 times.

 

[MagiusNecros]

Mage Ganon is best Ganon

 

[Jotari]

Warlock Ganon for life since that's what he's known for. Swordsman Ganon is just meh

It shouldn't be a case of Mage Ganon vs Sword Ganon vs Fist Ganon. We should endeavour to see all elements of his character included in Smash. Magic, Swords, Tridents and yes, even hand to hand combat, all are part of how he fights in the Zelda series as a whole and thus should be implemented in someway into his moveset. And that's not a crazy idea, it can easily done. The Warlock Blade special already gives him a sword attack and Dark Fists could easily be a move you'd see on a mage Ganondorf, especially if they give the attack a third stage where he slams down onto the ground as he tends to do. Even if he only uses a sword five times it's no reason to ignore the fact that he uses a sword completely. Similarly he does use physical attacks in the Zelda series and they have been translated into Smash already. Leaving out large elements of his character and focusing on just one is a formula for restraining creativity.

 

[Clock Tower Prison]

It shouldn't be a case of Mage Ganon vs Sword Ganon vs Fist Ganon. We should endeavour to see all elements of his character included in Smash. Magic, Swords, Tridents and yes, even hand to hand combat, all are part of how he fights in the Zelda series as a whole and thus should be implemented in someway into his moveset. And that's not a crazy idea, it can easily done. The Warlock Blade special already gives him a sword attack and Dark Fists could easily be a move you'd see on a mage Ganondorf, especially if they give the attack a third stage where he slams down onto the ground as he tends to do. Even if he only uses a sword five times it's no reason to ignore the fact that he uses a sword completely. Similarly he does use physical attacks in the Zelda series and they have been translated into Smash already. Leaving out large elements of his character and focusing on just one is a formula for restraining creativity.

Check what PM did for him. I think it could be simplified and each special would be a different Ganon, but if that could be implemented then I am so for it. Having 3 characters in one would be amazing.

 

[Frostwraith]

Ganondorf's use of magic in Smash (darkness or thunder effects added to physical moves) isn't any different from Zelda's use of magic (sparkly effects added to physical moves).

The main differences are:
- Zelda's moves are unique, while Ganondorf's are either entirely cloned from Falcon with the exception of the forward aerial (in Melee) or semi-cloned with some hand-to-hand moves inspired by Zelda cutscenes or boss sequences (Brawl onward).
- Ganondorf has a bigger amount of purely physical moves as opposed to Zelda who has almost all her moves have magical effects. Zelda's only moves that don't involve magic are the down aerial, down tilt and down Smash. Ganondorf's moves that use magic are the minority, being the 4 special moves, the jab, the side Smash, the up tilt and the down aerial.

If they altered his moves and animations to involve more magic even if he remained somewhat clonish, I think more people would be satisfied. His grab could be altered to be like how Zelda, Mewtwo and Robin grab foes by trapping them with telekinetic magic and zapping them or blasting them with darkness for the pummel. He already displays that ability in Smash 4 with his new Dark Dive grab animation, so it's something that could be expanded upon.

 

[Jotari]

I actually think his grab should resemble Pacmans more than anyone elses. Not exactly in terms of animation but in terms of how it works. Ganondorf is a risk reward character so having a big, long but slow extend grab would suit his style. Much better than the puny trex arm grab he has right now. They've also changed enough of his animations that the only ones I feel actually need to change are his down smash and neutral aerial (and change Falcon's forward smash back to what it was in Smash 64). All the others are either use a different animation already, function very differently (like the down aerial and up tilt) or are relatively minor attacks that suit (namely the up and back aerials).

 

[Porygon2]

Ganondorf's use of magic in Smash (darkness or thunder effects added to physical moves) isn't any different from Zelda's use of magic (sparkly effects added to physical moves)..

The magic is different in how it is implemented into animation. Zelda's sparkly effects actually make up some of her hitboxes - most obviously her specials, but also things like jab, up air and up tilt - whereas Ganon's are typically applied after the hit, excluding up tilt, neutral and side B, perhaps.

It's not like Ganon is at much of a disadvantage for this - it's a matter of sparkly hixboxes vs the lingering darkness damage. Still, if he were to be made a truer 'magic user', it might be as simple as revamping his animations, but keeping similar hitboxes, knockback, lag and damage. So instead of kicking his leg above him for his up smash, he raises a column of dark magic; instead of kicking either side for his down smash, he shoots either side of his body; instead of kicking forward for his side tilt, he fires an electric blast the same length as his leg, etc.

 

[Jotari]

Made a Pig Beast Ganon moveset thanks to the idea being brought up in this thread. Here it is if anyone's interested.

 

[BronzeGreekGod]

Not sure if this has been posted yet...

Let me know what you guys think!
If you have any questions check out my blog, facebook and/or twitter!

Blog: http://smashprojectganondorf.blogspot.ca/
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/Smash-Project-Ganondorf-433243623544755/timeline/
Twitter: BronzeGreekGod

 

[Clock Tower Prison]

Not sure if this has been posted yet...

Let me know what you guys think!
If you have any questions check out my blog, facebook and/or twitter!

Blog: http://smashprojectganondorf.blogspot.ca/
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/Smash-Project-Ganondorf-433243623544755/timeline/
Twitter: BronzeGreekGod

It has but it is always good to post again. This is something that should be brought in but NEVER will.

 

[BronzeGreekGod]

It has but it is always good to post again. This is something that should be brought in but NEVER will.

Well if anyone here plays project m it'll be their chance to play it when I release it

 

[WwwWario]

I personally keep going back and fourth on how I feel about Ganondorf. One day I can feel very satisfied with how he's represented, while I can feel the complete opposite the next.

Thing is, as for now, I'm happy with how Ganondorf turned out, but still wish more was done to him. Twilight Princess Ganondorf doesn't use lots of magic, he's more of a physical fighter. And while he uses a sword, I never wanted Ganon to use it in Smash, so I'm glad for that. His Side Tilt is from the game, his Flame Choke looks similar to how he kills the Sage in that cutscene, and something that people overlook: He actually uses his Side Smash in Twilight Princess. In the final battle, one of his attacks is him dashing forward with his elbow, before swinging around with a sword slash. In addition to this, his entry is him coming out of a dark portal, he has dark magic effects on several moves, his Up Taunt makes him float, he has Ganon as his Final Smash, Warlock Blade as a custom special, etc. Now, I kinda wish the Blade was his actual Neutral Special, but at the same time, I would miss the devastating, monstrous Warlock Punch. I guess that's the reason Sakurai made the blade as a custom.

All in all, as of today, I like how Ganon turned out. That being said, I still feel he could be more of... you know, King of Evil-ish. I wish he could be more brutal, have more effects on moves, feel more threatening. If his throws could include levitating his opponents and making them fly away, his grab could include dark magic, his Down Smash could be changed to a magic-based move, he could float in some way or another - then he would feel more like Ganondorf, the scary king of evil as he is. He has his Sword for his taunt, so it is indeed represented. It's like he's saying "I have a sword... but heh, I don't even need to use it to win". As Twilight Princess Ganondorf, I feel he's represented pretty well, it's just that the Falcon-clone moves overshadows this. I just like to think of it as their moves being similar, and that's all. Like Samus and Falcon having similar Up Tilts and Dash Attacks, for example. However, if this was Ocarina of Time Ganondorf we were talking about, I would indeed be disappointed. Then I would expect more magic and projectiles. But as TP Ganon, I actually like him a lot.

I heard that the reason Sakurai doesn't change him, is because Sakurai said in an interview that Ganon reminded him of his old father, who he respected and feared as a kid, but as Sakurai grew older, he understood that he really was an old man who was tired. He sees his father in Ganondorf, and he has gotten a personal bond to the character, and therefore doesn't want to change him. Not sure if this is true, but if it is, I don't think that's a good reason at all, honestly. To have a character not represent his game and origin more because the character remind you of your father... that's not a valid reason, really. But again, Dorf is pretty well represented as TP Ganon, imo.

All in all, I'm happy. But I wouldn't say no to even more effects, more bruatality, more King of Evil.

 

[Rialdospaldacht]

I heard that the reason Sakurai doesn't change him, is because Sakurai said in an interview that Ganon reminded him of his old father, who he respected and feared as a kid, but as Sakurai grew older, he understood that he really was an old man who was tired. He sees his father in Ganondorf, and he has gotten a personal bond to the character, and therefore doesn't want to change him. Not sure if this is true, but if it is, I don't think that's a good reason at all, honestly. To have a character not represent his game and origin more because the character remind you of your father... that's not a valid reason, really. But again, Dorf is pretty well represented as TP Ganon, imo.

Ugh. Why does misinformation always travel so much faster than truth? This has been debunked for ages.

 

[MagiusNecros]

Ugh. Why does misinformation always travel so much faster than truth? This has been debunked for ages.

Because people are dumb.

 

[WwwWario]

Because people are dumb.

Ugh. Why does misinformation always travel so much faster than truth? This has been debunked for ages.

Yeah sure, call me dumb. I'd love to hear some feedback on the other stuff I wrote, instead of calling me dumb for one sentence. So maby I haven't heard about the debunking, huh? Maybe I first found it a few days ago...

 

[MagiusNecros]

Yeah sure, call me dumb. I'd love to hear some feedback on the other stuff I wrote, instead of calling me dumb for one sentence. So maby I haven't heard about the debunking, huh? Maybe I first found it a few days ago...

He asked a question about it so I answered. This thing has been around for years and the source was always false. You found it and assumed it was fact. And it isn't.

Sakurai has always felt if he just makes Ganon have powerful attacks that's all the work he needs to do with him.

 

[Codaption]

......I mean..... You're still ignoring the vast majority of what the guy said.

Personally, I feel that what WwwWario makes sense. It'd be nice to have Ganon be more representative of himself, but if what we have now isn't too far off-base from TP Ganon (which is the version we have in Smash), it's not exactly horrible like some people might make it out to be.

 

[MagiusNecros]

I don't really feel much TP Ganon out of it honestly. Maybe I need more Twili magic effects but I really don't feel like the King of Evil. I still feel I am Black Shadow from F-zero. Or Deathborn.

Most of the attacks may have a rather obscure and skewed derivative of an action Ganon partook in such as grabbing someone or lunging at them but they only ever occur once except for maybe the kick which was a standard action in the TP Ganon fight.

I really want Ganon to have his own feel and playstyle. And not just have a majority of similar actions with different effects deriving off of Falcon.

If Sakurai is about accurate portrayals then he dropped the Triforce hard here.

But then again see Ridley for more accuracy.

Only part of Ganon all of us probably like is the strong single hit per attack and getting those attacks to land.

But really if I want to play as Ganondorf I can just boot up Hyrule Warriors and fire Energy Balls, have a real Warlock Punch, summon Puppet Ganon and actually smash the ground.

Plus Dual Greatswords. Not to mention Skyward Strike.

And then we get Dark Beast Ganon that got relegated to FS duty while in HW I can full out play as the thing.

 

[Clock Tower Prison]

I don't really feel much TP Ganon out of it honestly. Maybe I need more Twili magic effects but I really don't feel like the King of Evil. I still feel I am Black Shadow from F-zero. Or Deathborn.

Most of the attacks may have a rather obscure and skewed derivative of an action Ganon partook in such as grabbing someone or lunging at them but they only ever occur once except for maybe the kick which was a standard action in the TP Ganon fight.

I really want Ganon to have his own feel and playstyle. And not just have a majority of similar actions with different effects deriving off of Falcon.

If Sakurai is about accurate portrayals then he dropped the Triforce hard here.

But then again see Ridley for more accuracy.

Only part of Ganon all of us probably like is the strong single hit per attack and getting those attacks to land.

But really if I want to play as Ganondorf I can just boot up Hyrule Warriors and fire Energy Balls, have a real Warlock Punch, summon Puppet Ganon and actually smash the ground.

Plus Dual Greatswords. Not to mention Skyward Strike.

And then we get Dark Beast Ganon that got relegated to FS duty while in HW I can full out play as the thing.

/thread

 

[PK Rekt]

Noo ganondorf is so much fun! I mean, his playstyle and the use of attacks are drastically different compared to falcon. Sure, he doesn't have a moveset that represents the zelda series very well. But he still plays like ganon, bashing his opponents with incredible power. At least that's my opinion on this whole thing

 

[_Ganondorf_]

Noo ganondorf is so much fun! I mean, his playstyle and the use of attacks are drastically different compared to falcon. Sure, he doesn't have a moveset that represents the zelda series very well. But he still plays like ganon, bashing his opponents with incredible power. At least that's my opinion on this whole thing

No he doesn't play like Ganondorf... If he did then he would fight with swords and magic like he does in every single game he is in.
Also he would move and fight with some grace and agility not like a fat old man like he is in smash.

Power is the one thing he does have in smash (although he isn't the strongest, although he is probably the strongest Nintendo Character) but other wise except like 2-3 moves that he does he is absolutely nothing like any of Ganondorf iterations. And his "fun playstyle" can remain with the inclusion of a sword and magic just look at all the PM Ganon mods. They keep the same exact playstyle but add a sword and magic and make him unique.

 

[PK Rekt]

No he doesn't play like Ganondorf... If he did then he would fight with swords and magic like he does in every single game he is in.
Also he would move and fight with some grace and agility not like a fat old man like he is in smash.

Power is the one thing he does have in smash (although he isn't the strongest, although he is probably the strongest Nintendo Character) but other wise except like 2-3 moves that he does he is absolutely nothing like any of Ganondorf iterations. And his "fun playstyle" can remain with the inclusion of a sword and magic just look at all the PM Ganon mods. They keep the same exact playstyle but add a sword and magic and make him unique.

Just my personal opinion matey

 

[Clock Tower Prison]

Just my personal opinion matey

It isn't wrong but

Noo ganondorf is so much fun! I mean, his playstyle and the use of attacks are drastically different compared to falcon. Sure, he doesn't have a moveset that represents the zelda series very well. But he still plays like ganon, bashing his opponents with incredible power. At least that's my opinion on this whole thing

You did say that and sure he bashes his opponents with power but OK then you could also just play roy or ryu. It shouldn't be power that draws you to him, even though yes the king is very powerful and we like him for it, but a unique playstyle. I do secondary him but honestly it just feels like I'm playing a slightly stronger(which does nothing) Falcon who is overwhelmingly slower.

 

[_Ganondorf_]

Just my personal opinion matey

Nothing against you my friend I was just disagreeing with your opinion. No hard feelings.

Listen we all like Ganon in smash to some extent otherwise we wouldn't play him. But on an objective level he doesn't fight at all as to how he fight in any of his games that he is in. And in some form he uses magic and a weapon in all of them.

In Melee he was at least somewhat fast so his power felt visceral. In Brawl and Smash4 he is just a walking potato that throws his weight at people. Just take a look at the fight in twilight princess; he goes into Zelda's body and fights with her body win Magic, he transforms into beast Ganon and teleports around, he summons ghost warriors while fighting on horse back and then has a sword duel with link where his attack are very agile and quick while also *strong* as that's his inherent trait. In fact he is so agile and swift that if the player with a Link flubs an attack he immediately hits back or even out right counters if the player is just attacking him without thinking. He also jumps like 20 ft in the air and behind a Link all while doing swift strikes. He doesn't run in slow motion meandering his way while throwing slow huge arching blows like he does in smash it's all technical and very quick and precise in his original games.

Same could be said to his Wind Waker appearance. And in OoT he fight with Magic while flying around and then as Beast Ganon while duel wielding swords.

Smash Ganon just doesn't do any of these things. He doesn't even move or fights as Ganon in the games regardless of not using magic or a sword. But his technical & precise fighting style *while remaining brutal* is just not there unfortunately...

 

[Clock Tower Prison]

. He doesn't run in slow motion meandering his way while throwing slow huge arching blows like he does in smash it's all technical and very quick and precise.

Perfect example would be the other great powerful King*Bowser* He is extremely fast and hits really hard. I don't mind not having like Sheik's or Zss or Mario or whoevers great frame data but why is he so damn slow.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ktc6LK9lAU0 most people may have already seen this vid but seriously wtf?

 

[_Ganondorf_]

Never seen that video, and yeah Ganon should be faster than D3, Donkey Kong, Bowser and Ike and why the hell is Bowser so fast!?!?!
I mean good for him but sheesh!

 

[MagiusNecros]

Never seen that video, and yeah Ganon should be faster than D3, Donkey Kong, Bowser and Ike and why the hell is Bowser so fast!?!?!
I mean good for him but sheesh!

Bowser's Inside Story. That is all.

 

[Jotari]

He asked a question about it so I answered. This thing has been around for years and the source was always false. You found it and assumed it was fact. And it isn't.

Sakurai has always felt if he just makes Ganon have powerful attacks that's all the work he needs to do with him.

He didn't assume it was fact. He literally said it was something he heard and, I quote, "I'm not sure if it's true."

 

[MagiusNecros]

That said. Would you want to stick with what we have now? A novelty character or a character that fights in a way to match their very representation.

And for a game about Nintendo history, the Zelda series is a big deal and not only does this mockery of Ganon not only do him a disservice it also does the Zelda franchise a disservice as a whole. For people that have never played Zelda will see him as a weak old man. Zelda fans will probably see issues with the way Ganondorf performs in battle compared to every other appearance with him in any other ****ing Zelda game.

Us the "fans" merely have to "deal with it". All because Sakurai and co. wasn't in the mood to rework him to the extent Bowser got. Whether that's for better or worse is up for debate however.

 

[LancerStaff]

But really if I want to play as Ganondorf I can just boot up Hyrule Warriors and fire Energy Balls, have a real Warlock Punch, summon Puppet Ganon and actually smash the ground.

Plus Dual Greatswords. Not to mention Skyward Strike.

And then we get Dark Beast Ganon that got relegated to FS duty while in HW I can full out play as the thing.

Too bad HW Dorf is low tier and beasty is basically Broken Camera: The Mode.

 

[Rialdospaldacht]

Too bad HW Dorf is low tier and beasty is basically Broken Camera: The Mode.

When's the last time you played him? He's one of the best characters in the game now after the patch that buffed his C1 and 6.

 

[MagiusNecros]

Too bad HW Dorf is low tier and beasty is basically Broken Camera: The Mode.

I dunno man. HW tier list looks like Spin to win, VOLGA NATION, Ganon C1 pound, Dominatrix stomp, and Fierce Deity rage mode.

Ganon's C1 since a patch like a few months ago makes his C1 invincible and you can dodge/dash out of it.

Also Ganondorf + Hasty Attacks is the truth.