The King of Klones (the Ganon character design thread)

[Piedro]

Honestly, why not just remove him?

*chuckles* Oh god, the best post ever!

 

[Douglas Jay Ganon]

I actually don't know if someone has mentioned this before, but I'm gonna do it.

I LOVE Ganon playstyle in Smash, but also the character, as a TLOZ char. He's evil, he's a king, he's a mage AND a swordsman. It just doesn't feel that badass in Smash... I have an idea, to not alienate ppl who love his playstyle and still be faithfull to the franchise!

So, what about a Visual Rework? If someone has played League of Legends, they will know. The visual rework (VR) is exactly that. Just a... skin, maybe? It's used to maintain the character as it is gameplay wise but making his look a bit different and improve his animations. Having the same speed, weaknesses and pros, hitboxes and stuff.

Catching the idea? I've been thinking about it for a long time, and so, I've reached a conclusion.

Take the Twilight Princess (TP) Dorf, the one we all (I guess) love. The one who you fight at the final battle, the one who stands so tall, with his sword, walking towards you without fear, wielding his sword. Do you have him in mind? Good, let's continue.

So he's the TP Dorf, WITH his sword. Before you attack me, let me explain my idea pls.
He has the same hitboxes and end/start up lag, etc. ONLY his attack LOOK different. My idea with this is to make him use all of his resources of combat, magic, sword and pure power.

His f-tilt, b-air, the glorious d-air keep unchanged visually. The same with Neutral B, Flame Choke and Dark Fists.
His d-tilt might be a explosion if magic on the ground (covering the same hitbox, end/startup lag, frames, etc as the actual d-tilt), u-tilt could be a charged punch with dark magic, and then he slams the ground as he did with that earthquake punch in OOT. His f-smash might be a thrust with his sword and his d-smash might keep unchanged (or maybe he could use his sword too).
(I really like this next idea ) His u-smash could be a quick, violent eruption of dark magic coming from the ground, as he raises his arm.

I have no idea what his u-air and his down b could be, I hope you give your ideas too. But my main idea of his VR is near that style, one hand sword, and the other one free, but he uses it without a doubt, confident of himself, knowing he's going to win. As the final battle of TP.

Thanks you so much for reading. This was my first post, hope my idea will put an end to all conflict of Falcondorf vs Complete Rework Ganon. (Srry for my bad English)

 

[RandomButton]

^The post above me makes a great point. I think a reskin and some possible move changes to fit that reskin are all we really need. Sword or no sword I think Ganondorf is a master of both. To open, I'd like to remind everyone that I'm not trying to offend people who like how Ganondorf is. I'm one of those people and wouldn't mind terribly if he stayed mostly the same. But He at least needs different animations and something to set him apart. Most of the clones have become more unique with each variation until they were different enough. Luigi has changed to become a very unique character from Mario. Bringing back Dr. Mario basically gives us Melee Mario to play with, and since Mario has changed he's a different enough character. But all of those are supposed to have similarities. I think what irks people most is the lack of connection or reason for Captain falcon and Ganondorf to be similar. Anyways, let's get this straight. By keeping him the same in Brawl, Sakurai made an irreversible, cement set-up for Ganondorf's playstyle. While they gave him some unique changes to his moves to make him stand out, they've spent a lot more time making acceptable clones (I'm looking at you, Luigi) different than separating Ganondorf from Falcon. Sorry, he's a brawler right now and I don't think he's bringing his sword to the fight anytime soon. But they could at least change the moves up a bit. Here are my suggestions for move changes.





Down Smash: Instead of a copy of Falcon's smash, there's a very simple solution. I think this should be a decisive, one-hitter attack. I would be happy to see a single powerful stomp that does heavy damage in front of him, perhaps with a flare-up of dark magic to really deliver the pain.



Up Smash: A very powerful uppercut punch cloaked in dark magic. It could be devastating if Ganondorf were to start on his knees and put all of his weight into it as he stands up.



Forward Smash. This one is very easy to change.There are a lot of options. I'd settle for a weaker version of his main backhand, or even a heavy sword slash if he holds it in future installments. I still feel like Ganondorf should be a very physical character, however. Perhaps just a standard one-two punch? Maybe a multiple hit beat down of sorts, akin to Little Mac but much heavier and slower?



Up Air: A total rotation uppercut in the air, like the ending of his current Up Special.



Down Air: It needs to be a spike of course-I think a good option would be a powerful mid-air dropkick, like that of Snake's Forward Air in the previous game.



Neutral Air: A shoulder lunge dealing small damage but with good knockback for spacing. Perhaps swapped out with his "Aerial Fist of Death" or Forward Air. If he has his sword, a wide swipe like that of Ike.



Throws: Throws really just need some different animation. The grab I would just have him pick them up by the throat as is expected of the King of Evil. Forward should be a kick, backwards cam be a slam to the ground directly behind him. Upward can be a nod to his original upward smash with the angled kick. Down can be smashing the opponent onto his knee, with some extra horizontal ground knock back for distancing.



Neutral Special: Sage's Sword. It would be an easy replacement for his backhand which we've already seen. He can wear it at his side and pull it out for a decisive heavy stab.



Down Special: Lightning Ball: Ganondorf's trademark trick of gathering electricity from the air and tossing it at his enemies. Would function like a powerful nonchargeable Aura Sphere. Holds in the air for a moment like Peach's floating.

OR

Wizard's Lunge: A sidestep lunge using the sword and shoulder and with less distance than Wizard's Foot. Ganondorf does a powerful shoulder lunge before following with a powerful downward sword slash. In the air it would just be a diagonal sword attack(think of the differences between Donkey Kong's down special in air and on ground.)



Side Special: Flame Choke

OR

Dark Current: Ganondorf moves forward and slightly upward, levitating just above the ground while he sucks the opponent to his palm and courses dark energy through them . (Basically a variation of his current up special without the same kind of vertical lift) Ends in a throw to the ground.



Up Special: Decisive Fist: Ganondorf jumps into the air, levitates momentarily, and slams down his fist with great force, punishing those directly hit and knocking back those caught in the impact zone.



Up Tilt: While this is a great edge-guard, it looks too much like Samus and Captain Falcon's tilts. Keep the functionality but change the animation slightly.



And that's everything I think we would need to make Ganondorf truly unique without alienating current players too much.

 

[I_hate_usernames]

Visual rework sounds like a wasted effort TBH, if we're going to re-do his animations we might as well tweak his moveset to be more effective and unique.

If you're going to go though that effort, might as well give it 100%

 

[Quillion]

As much as a good idea it sounds, a purely visual rework using one of his trademark weapons would lead to serious Hitbox Dissonance.

But I don't really mind a range increase; definitely would be necessary for a heavy character.

On another note, what if Ganondorf used all of his weapons for his smashes?

F-Smash: Pulls out either Sage Sword or the Demon Sword (Ghirahim), preferably the latter, and does a heavy slash

D-Smash: Pulls out his twin swords and slashes on either side

U-Smash: Pulls out his trident and spins it around above his head

 

[WwwWario]

I'm honestly very, VERY disapointed. Ganondorf is my favorite villain out of any game franchise, and my main in Smash, too. Sure, I like his moveset a lot, but to me, he simply feels... incomplete. There is absolutely NO reason for Ganon to still have Falcon moves. They did a great job with decloning him in Brawl, by making him slower and more powerful, new Jab, Side Tilt and Down Tilt, new Side B, and new animations. And in Smash 4, all the did was giving him a new animation for his grabbing Up B.... while they gave Bowser a total new makeover, Pit brand new specials, DK a new Dash attack and a areal Down B, and many others. Ganondorf is the one who DESERVED a makeover. Bowser didn't need one, yet it was very cool that he got one. Ganondorf NEEDED one, and didn't get anything new.

As I said, I do like his moveset now, and it feels like Ganon, but still, he feels half complete. Why keep his Down Smash, his Side Smash, his back Air, Down B, when they actually DO have moves to choose from? I personally don't want Ganon to become a sword fighter in Smash, but why not have his Warlock Blade as his standard one? Heck, he even uses it in his Classic Mode Ending! Why have his current Up Special, and not a more unique one? Why not use his Slam from OOT for, say, his Down Smash? And if not, at least make something new that's not from any Zelda game instead of reusing Falcon moves! Ganon could have been a fully rewamped character in Smash 4, he could feel like Ganondorf with a Warlock Blade and fully unique moves. He could have felt a lot more dangerous, and actually played more like Ganondorf and felt complete. As of now, it's just... eh, yeah, that's Ganon, but... he could have been SO much more.

Sakurai gave Little Mac 16 costumes, he gave Palutena 12 unique Specials, he makes TONS of Mii Costumes, he made other characters more true to their franchise (like Link's new Dash Attack), and all of that is great and all, but he STILL couldn't do anything with Ganon?! Sure, he would be different from the moveset we've grown to know, but so it is with other characters, too. Sigh... It's just pure lazyness, nothing more. Look at the effort he put in Ryu. And look at the effort he put in Ganon. It's almost like Sakurai is saying "Eh, well, alright, we'll throw Ganon in here, too".

Now, question for you Ganon fans: Do you think it is possible for Sakurai to change his moveset now? As I said, it bugs me so much. We have Ganon in Smash, and we're ALMOST there, but we're still stuck with this Ganon, a Ganon that just feels half-finished. Do you think it's possible to have some kind of poll, a change poll, or something similar, that could make Sakurai take action? Or is it too late?

 

[Douglas Jay Ganon]

Visual rework sounds like a wasted effort TBH, if we're going to re-do his animations we might as well tweak his moveset to be more effective and unique.

If you're going to go though that effort, might as well give it 100%

That's the problem. Sakurai doesn't want his moveset changed. They might do the same they did to Pit, but we never know...
The visual rework is enough effort for Ganon. Keep his players happy and the fans amazed.

 

[Codaption]

I'm honestly very, VERY disapointed. Ganondorf is my favorite villain out of any game franchise, and my main in Smash, too. Sure, I like his moveset a lot, but to me, he simply feels... incomplete. There is absolutely NO reason for Ganon to still have Falcon moves. They did a great job with decloning him in Brawl, by making him slower and more powerful, new Jab, Side Tilt and Down Tilt, new Side B, and new animations. And in Smash 4, all the did was giving him a new animation for his grabbing Up B.... while they gave Bowser a total new makeover, Pit brand new specials, DK a new Dash attack and a areal Down B, and many others. Ganondorf is the one who DESERVED a makeover. Bowser didn't need one, yet it was very cool that he got one. Ganondorf NEEDED one, and didn't get anything new.

As I said, I do like his moveset now, and it feels like Ganon, but still, he feels half complete. Why keep his Down Smash, his Side Smash, his back Air, Down B, when they actually DO have moves to choose from? I personally don't want Ganon to become a sword fighter in Smash, but why not have his Warlock Blade as his standard one? Heck, he even uses it in his Classic Mode Ending! Why have his current Up Special, and not a more unique one? Why not use his Slam from OOT for, say, his Down Smash? And if not, at least make something new that's not from any Zelda game instead of reusing Falcon moves! Ganon could have been a fully revamped character in Smash 4, he could feel like Ganondorf with a Warlock Blade and fully unique moves. He could have felt a lot more dangerous, and actually played more like Ganondorf and felt complete. As of now, it's just... eh, yeah, that's Ganon, but... he could have been SO much more.

Sakurai gave Little Mac 16 costumes, he gave Palutena 12 unique Specials, he makes TONS of Mii Costumes, he made other characters more true to their franchise (like Link's new Dash Attack), and all of that is great and all, but he STILL couldn't do anything with Ganon?! Sure, he would be different from the moveset we've grown to know, but so it is with other characters, too. Sigh... It's just pure lazyness, nothing more. Look at the effort he put in Ryu. And look at the effort he put in Ganon. It's almost like Sakurai is saying "Eh, well, alright, we'll throw Ganon in here, too".

Now, question for you Ganon fans: Do you think it is possible for Sakurai to change his moveset now? As I said, it bugs me so much. We have Ganon in Smash, and we're ALMOST there, but we're still stuck with this Ganon, a Ganon that just feels half-finished. Do you think it's possible to have some kind of poll, a change poll, or something similar, that could make Sakurai take action? Or is it too late?

A little clarification on Bowser and Pit, because the mentioning of them in your post caught my eye.

Bowser's changes came from a balancing perspective, not an accuracy perspective. Ganondorf had his issues in Melee and Brawl, but Bowser was absolutely terrible in both games. If he hadn't been changed this time around, we'd have seen a repeat of that.

Pit's changes were basically to keep up to date with Uprising, nothing more. While this in of itself is a pretty flimsy reason...if you look at Brawl Pit and Smash 4 Pit, and compare their specials:
-Down Special is still a shield that reflects and repels opponents, albeit with a few new strengths and weaknesses;
-Side Special is another reflector that also serves as a lunging move; and
-Up Special is still a recovery that goes quite a long way but is otherwise very, very bad.
There were a few visual and practical changes here and there, but conceptually he's still the same character he was in Brawl.

Of course, that means jack when we look at Ganon. Reasonably he could've been given the same treatment as Pit, and yet he wasn't. Why is that?

The way I see it, the developers hit a similar roadblock that some people are hitting in this thread- attempts to come up with a new moveset would likely alienate his player base from previous games, and simply changing the visuals on his moves is almost impossible without throwing his hitboxes completely out of whack. Since leaving him the same with (very) minor differences avoids both of these outcomes and doesn't really throw as many people off, it seems like the smartest choice of the three.

Making a game isn't easy- people know this and agree with it, yet they don't really comprehend how hard it is. There's a bajillion different things developers have to consider for their game, and it's impossible to cover all the bases and please everyone. Glitches and exploits are found that were not accounted for (*cough* wavedashing *cough*), and people may find fault with things that other may have the exact opposite opinion on. In the end, it's really a matter of what pleases people the most... and while most of you want Ganon to change (which, to clarify, this post is not denying your right to think so), you still play Ganon as he is now. While you want better things for him, you don't avoid the character with every ounce of your being...if he were changed as drastically as some would like, I can't say the same would be true of the players who love Smash Ganon.

 

[FP-Takyon]

I'm a huge fan of Zelda and Ganondorf is among my favorite nintendo villains (seconded only by majora), and I absolutely love his playstyle in smash 4. I'm on the fence, actually. sure, I'd like for ganon to be more accurately repped, but I wouldn't want to sacrifice what we have.

the popular opinion is to add black shadow from f zero, give ganon's old moveset to him, and give ganondorf a new moveset. I think this is the overall best option

 

[Jotari]

I think they should keep Ganondorf's forward smash (maybe change it to the single elbow attack from Twilight Princess) and change Falcon's. The flaming kick he had in Smash 64 was cool.

 

[Quillion]

The way I see it, the developers hit a similar roadblock that some people are hitting in this thread- attempts to come up with a new moveset would likely alienate his player base from previous games, and simply changing the visuals on his moves is almost impossible without throwing his hitboxes completely out of whack. Since leaving him the same with (very) minor differences avoids both of these outcomes and doesn't really throw as many people off, it seems like the smartest choice of the three.

Thing is, I WAS ALIENATED BY THE NEW BOWSER, and I still am. And I have encountered a few people who are alienated by new Bowser as well. I love the original Melee/Brawl Bowser much more than the one we have now just because he's a vicious monster with an epic headbutt (and really, the only replacement for that Fsmash would be the epic punch from Bowser's Inside Story).

Yet, 99% of people pretty much welcomed the revamped Bowser with open arms, saying that this one was more canon (which I don't really think it was), plus there was the whole Bowser was finally good thing.

And according to @ LancerStaff , there are a few people who are alienated by Pit's new Uprising specials (want him to give sources, so tagged him), yet it's really difficult to see anyone complaining about that either.

Bowser got a lot of hitbox range with the revamp, and it's not too hard to see how Ganondorf can have a similar revamp; even then while still keeping him as slow as he is now.

• For example, his F-Smash? An attack that involves him lunching while stepping forward? Either make it a sword/trident lunge with two hands, or have him do his battering item F-smash where he horizontally swings his sword. I say horizontally because this way the hitbox can be kept thin, so all the move would get would be crazy range that works the way it does.
• His D-Smash? He pulls out his dual swords and slashes on either side. More range, works the same.
• His very useful B-air could have him pulling out his sword and slashing behind him.

Sure doing Ganon justice would be alienating to some, but as long as it balances out with a few moves that work/look the same as before as with Bowser, it would work out.

Now, question for you Ganon fans: Do you think it is possible for Sakurai to change his moveset now? As I said, it bugs me so much. We have Ganon in Smash, and we're ALMOST there, but we're still stuck with this Ganon, a Ganon that just feels half-finished. Do you think it's possible to have some kind of poll, a change poll, or something similar, that could make Sakurai take action? Or is it too late?

I'm still spamming the character poll with requests for a different Ganondorf, either as a separate character or as a complete revamp for the one we have now, so we can do that.

 

[LancerStaff]

And according to @ LancerStaff , there are a few people who are alienated by Pit's new Uprising specials (want him to give sources, so tagged him), yet it's really difficult to see anyone complaining about that either.

Bowser got a lot of hitbox range with the revamp, and it's not too hard to see how Ganondorf can have a similar revamp; even then while still keeping him as slow as he is now.

Just go back in the Pit forums if you want to see... Little spread out, but people were upset since day one when we saw the Uspecial change.

To elaborate, Pit's received the most changes of any character. None of his current specials even resemble his old ones, sans one. None of them function similarly outside of a loose definition either. Fsmash, Usmash, Dsmash, Jab, Utilt, Ftilt, Fair, Bair, Dash Attack, and Fthrow all either function differently or are completely different moves. Playstyle wise there's no resemblance. Brawl Pit was campy, nonconfrontational, and took days to ever get a KO. Smash 4 Pit is a defensive all-arounder with tons of unique tools who wins matches by making use of his strengths compared to his opponent's. And that's without some kind of weapon change like what you guys are suggesting for Dorf.

And a quick note, Bowser lost some range on a few moves too. Jab and Dtilt no longer make use of his claws.

 

[Quillion]

And a quick note, Bowser lost some range on a few moves too. Jab and Dtilt no longer make use of his claws.

Really? I was under the impression that Bowser gained range with the new punching given that his arms are bigger and actually fully extends them.

 

[LancerStaff]

Really? I was under the impression that Bowser gained range with the new punching given that his arms are bigger and actually fully extends them.

Lost a bit of a disjoint at least... Thing is that since he isn't hunched over, I don't think his arms reach as far in his jab.

 

[Quillion]

Lost a bit of a disjoint at least... Thing is that since he isn't hunched over, I don't think his arms reach as far in his jab.

Relative to the back of his body, maybe, but relative to the center, yes he got more range.

 

[LancerStaff]

Relative to the back of his body, maybe, but relative to the center, yes he got more range.

I just remember this so well because I remember people saying how it was one of the big ways Bowser was nerfed back when everybody else was saying he was OP.

But then again that was back around launch and people didn't really know what they were doing, so I'm not entirely sure.

 

[SleuthMechanism]

keep tp ganon as this ganon and add in oot ganon with a more wizardy moveset. there, everyone's happy. I think this set really fits the more brutish, slow, and calculated power motif of tp ganondorf in nature even if it's not necessarily accurate to the game. there, you have your game accurate ganon with his most iconic design whilst not alienating those who like the current ganondorf.(like i do, and id love to see both one day)

 

[Rialdospaldacht]

keep tp ganon as this ganon and add in oot ganon with a more wizardy moveset. there, everyone's happy. I think this set really fits the more brutish, slow, and calculated power motif of tp ganondorf in nature even if it's not necessarily accurate to the game. there, you have your game accurate ganon with his most iconic design whilst not alienating those who like the current ganondorf.(like i do, and id love to see both one day)

Tbh, this is my ideal solution if we have to keep the fat one. OoT's my favorite design for him, he's a wizard, which I want an accurate him to be way more than a swordsman...

 

[TehMud]

I just want to get his double jump back after an aerial Wizard Kick. Helps his recovery immensely and allows for...stuff. I'm tired.

 

[Quillion]

You know, I'm kinda tired of arguing about this, so I'll go for a third option:

Why don't we petition for Aonuma to change Ganondorf into a puncher within the Zelda series? Everyone pretty much wins there: Ganondorf is finally canon because Zelda has conformed to that, and Ganondorf stays the same he's always been in Smash.

I never really wanted Ganon to be a sword/magic fighter; just to be canon, and there's more than one way to that path, I've realized.

 

[Jotari]

You know, I'm kinda tired of arguing about this, so I'll go for a third option:

Why don't we petition for Aonuma to change Ganondorf into a puncher within the Zelda series? Everyone pretty much wins there: Ganondorf is finally canon because Zelda has conformed to that, and Ganondorf stays the same he's always been in Smash.

I never really wanted Ganon to be a sword/magic fighter; just to be canon, and there's more than one way to that path, I've realized.

There actually was a thread about that at some point. My opinion is that it'd be fine for one battle or one game but it shouldn't bbe his definitive style for all Zelda games. Since he doesn't have a definitive style. Even when using a sword he's used it differently in every game and that's the way it should be. It keeps the battles fun and interesting. I'd love if they gave him a Smash Bros. moveset in Hyrule Warriors though. It'd feel totally awesome to mow down waves of mooks with Wizard's Foot.

 

[Quillion]

There actually was a thread about that at some point. My opinion is that it'd be fine for one battle or one game but it shouldn't bbe his definitive style for all Zelda games. Since he doesn't have a definitive style. Even when using a sword he's used it differently in every game and that's the way it should be. It keeps the battles fun and interesting. I'd love if they gave him a Smash Bros. moveset in Hyrule Warriors though. It'd feel totally awesome to mow down waves of mooks with Wizard's Foot.

Can you search for it? The main problem with Smash Ganondorf is that he's associated with bladed weapons (usually swords) despite the different styles, and that's what's salting people up.

But I agree that if Ganondorf did more of a hand-to-hand fighting style for one final boss battle, no one would complain anymore.

They even did something similar in Skyward Sword with Ghirahim III phase 1:

Notice him doing punches and kicks despite him using a sword throughout most of the game. Remind you of a certain argument?

 

[Rialdospaldacht]

You know, I'm kinda tired of arguing about this, so I'll go for a third option:

Why don't we petition for Aonuma to change Ganondorf into a puncher within the Zelda series? Everyone pretty much wins there: Ganondorf is finally canon because Zelda has conformed to that, and Ganondorf stays the same he's always been in Smash.

I never really wanted Ganon to be a sword/magic fighter; just to be canon, and there's more than one way to that path, I've realized.

That's about the worst way it could possibly be handled. You do not fix a problem by turning the solution into the problem.

 

[Quillion]

That's about the worst way it could possibly be handled. You do not fix a problem by turning the solution into the problem.

The problem is that Ganon isn't canon, not that he's not a swordfighter + magic user. You'll find that everyone just wants the former, not the latter for its own sake.

 

[Jotari]

That's about the worst way it could possibly be handled. You do not fix a problem by turning the solution into the problem.

Does it really bother you on a conceptual level to think of Ganondorf using his fists? It's not like there's some kind of canon reason he can't punch people. In fact every appearance he's had as Ganondorf (and at least two as pig beast Ganon) he's had a physical attack of some sort without using a weapon, most predominantly in the cutscenes in The Wind Waker. It's just never been the basis for a boss battle.

Also I tried to find that thread but couldn't. I can't seem to find any option in my profile that let's me check everything I've posted in. I think it was actually a more general thread about Smash Bros. affecting other games, or at the very least I made a comment pointing out other cases where Smash Bros. original moves have bled into their own series.

 

[Rialdospaldacht]

The problem is that Ganon isn't canon, not that he's not a swordfighter + magic user. You'll find that everyone just wants the former, not the latter for its own sake.

Does it really bother you on a conceptual level to think of Ganondorf using his fists? It's not like there's some kind of canon reason he can't punch people. In fact every appearance he's had as Ganondorf (and at least two as pig beast Ganon) he's had a physical attack of some sort without using a weapon, most predominantly in the cutscenes in The Wind Waker. It's just never been the basis for a boss battle.

Again, as I said, it's not even fixing the problem if you do that, it's bending the Zelda series over to conform to Smash's problem. That's not how you handle problems.

Second, it'd be pathetic if he did. He's a powerful and ancient demon king and sorcerer. With everything he has at his disposal, doing something as simple as punching you really slowly is just sad. Even in Hyrule Warriors, at his most physical, he's still throwing dark energy around with every physical blow. So yes, yes it does bother me on a conceptual level.

 

[LancerStaff]

Since Aonuma has been giving Sakurai the a-okay since Brawl for Falcondorf I'd say there's a chance Aonuma will end up making it cannon. He probably didn't talk about Falcondorf until TP had a bunch of work done and couldn't implement anything major until later, and Dorf wasn't in SS so...

My biggest beef with how it's an "injustice" to Dorf to be the way he is in Smash is that Aonuma could just go "Hey bro, need more sla****y-slash and less punchity-punch on the Demon King" and Sakurai would do it. People over at Nintendo care a lot about protecting their IPs and there's constant back-and-fourth about how the characters should work when they're making cameos or significant appearances. Either Aonuma doesn't care about Zelda in Smash (After HW that's not probable...) or he likes Punchendorf.

 

[Jotari]

Again, as I said, it's not even fixing the problem if you do that, it's bending the Zelda series over to conform to Smash's problem. That's not how you handle problems.

Second, it'd be pathetic if he did. He's a powerful and ancient demon king and sorcerer. With everything he has at his disposal, doing something as simple as punching you really slowly is just sad. Even in Hyrule Warriors, at his most physical, he's still throwing dark energy around with every physical blow. So yes, yes it does bother me on a conceptual level.

So did you dislike it when Ganondorf was pimp slapping everyone in The Wind Waker? If Smash Bros didn't exist would you still be against the concept of Ganondorf fighting unarmed? Do you consider Kid Icarus Uprising to be bending to conform to Smash by using the Brawl character designs including the very origin of Dark Pit? Or Mario using his forward smash in Super Star Saga? How about Captain Falcon ending his anime with a Falcon Punch? I agree that Smash shouldn't dictate the path of other series but I think it should (and it has) influence it. And it's not like he's ignoring magic in Smash. He is using the power of darkness to charge his attacks just like Hyrule Warriors. They just have a larger area of affect due to the nature of the gameplay (which would probably remain true if it was ported to a Zelda Boss Battle). He even uses the same version of Warlock Punch albeit quicker. Personally I have no problem with Ganondorf kicking the ever loving crap out of anyone who stands in his way. It makes him look physically intimidating. But if you disagree with it on a conceptional level then I can't change your mind. Though I do think your letting your Smash based bias affect your opinion.

 

[Rialdospaldacht]

So did you dislike it when Ganondorf was pimp slapping everyone in The Wind Waker?

No, because he displays various other abilities throughout, unlike in Smash.

If Smash Bros didn't exist would you still be against the concept of Ganondorf fighting unarmed?

I have no idea; I'm terrible at hypotheticals. I'd assume so, since I was introduced to Smash Ganondorf before Zelda Ganondorf, and I still have a problem with it. And for the others, KIU aside, which was intentionally enormously revamped, and by Smash's director no less, they all fall under what you say later, that it influences the main series but doesn't dictate them. Completely changing Ganondorf's fighting style and stripping him of everything he can do is not merely influence.

And it's not like he's ignoring magic in Smash. He is using the power of darkness to charge his attacks just like Hyrule Warriors.

His magic has little-to-no effect on anything he does. All it is is special effects that make his attacks purple. The only ones that wouldn't be able to function exactly the same without using magic are the grab part of Dark Dive, and Flame Choke.



When, say, a given biggest, baddest dude in the prison yard could fight exactly the same way as a demon king, then something is very, very wrong with the latter's moveset.

 

[Jotari]

No, because he displays various other abilities throughout, unlike in Smash.



I have no idea; I'm terrible at hypotheticals. I'd assume so, since I was introduced to Smash Ganondorf before Zelda Ganondorf, and I still have a problem with it. And for the others, KIU aside, which was intentionally enormously revamped, and by Smash's director no less, they all fall under what you say later, that it influences the main series but doesn't dictate them. Completely changing Ganondorf's fighting style and stripping him of everything he can do is not merely influence.




His magic has little-to-no effect on anything he does. All it is is special effects that make his attacks purple. The only ones that wouldn't be able to function exactly the same without using magic are the grab part of Dark Dive, and Flame Choke.



When, say, a given biggest, baddest dude in the prison yard could fight exactly the same way as a demon king, then something is very, very wrong with the latter's moveset.

But having Ganondorf fight hand to hand in a single boss battle wouldn't be dictating his fighting style. It wouldn't necessarily even strip him of anything other than the mere fact of having a weapon. He could still have a hypothetical boss battle where he approaches Link and punches him in the face or throws a ball of energy if Link is far away. Jumps up in the air and does an earthquake punch etc. He could do literally everything you see him do in every other boss fight he's had with the exception of swinging a sword, something that is a tool he has and not part of his actual ability set. Hell you could even have him fight unarmed at first because he wants to keep Link alive to use the Triforce, and then draws his sword half way through when he's losing. Basically making that cutscene before the final battle of The Wind Waker a part of the final battle. Ganondorf doesn't have a set canon fighting style. He flew and threw magic in one appearance; punched, didn't use any magic and dual wielded katanas in another appearance and then kicked and used a long sword in his latest appearance, only using magic on horse back. You literally can't change Ganondorf's base fighting style because it's been completely different in every single appearance. I agree that if Ganondorf was to only ever fight like he does in Smash then that would be bad, but for him to do it for a single boss battle, use elements of his Smash moveset, or hell don't take any direct inspiration at all but still fight unarmed, then it could make for a good boss battle.

 

[Rialdospaldacht]

But having Ganondorf fight hand to hand in a single boss battle wouldn't be dictating his fighting style. It wouldn't necessarily even strip him of anything other than the mere fact of having a weapon. He could still have a hypothetical boss battle where he approaches Link and punches him in the face or throws a ball of energy if Link is far away. Jumps up in the air and does an earthquake punch etc. He could do literally everything you see him do in every other boss fight he's had with the exception of swinging a sword, something that is a tool he has and not part of his actual ability set. Hell you could even have him fight unarmed at first because he wants to keep Link alive to use the Triforce, and then draws his sword half way through when he's losing. Basically making that cutscene before the final battle of The Wind Waker a part of the final battle. Ganondorf doesn't have a set canon fighting style. He flew and threw magic in one appearance; punched, didn't use any magic and dual wielded katanas in another appearance and then kicked and used a long sword in his latest appearance, only using magic on horse back. You literally can't change Ganondorf's base fighting style because it's been completely different in every single appearance. I agree that if Ganondorf was to only ever fight like he does in Smash then that would be bad, but for him to do it for a single boss battle, use elements of his Smash moveset, or hell don't take any direct inspiration at all but still fight unarmed, then it could make for a good boss battle.

Oh, yeah, that's all fine then, since that still goes back to "he has a variety of things he can do". I've been running with what Quillon said, which implies that he'd exclusively be a purple puncher in Zelda.

Though that still carries the problem of his Smash self only showing one of the many, many things he can do, even if this were to come to pass, and one that most anyone else could at that.

 

[Jotari]

I think his customs will be a clear way to show off his other abilities and something they'll definitely take advantage of if they expand the idea and give everyone unique customs. He can keep Wizards Foot, Flame Choke etc but his alternate specials could easily be energy balls, trident, ground pounds and a cape attack. Already they've included the sword as one of his alt specials so I think it is something they want to do. It's just making unique customs for everyone is super time consuming and as evidence by the games so far, they're hesitant to change his base moveset style. But including more things from his own series shouldn't be considered inconsolable with his current moveset in smash, especially since they have hybridized it before. Personally I'd love if the charged fist punch he used in the Oracle games was his Down Smash.

 

[Powerman293]

I'm part of the camp who thinks they should give Ganondorf's moveset to Balck Shadow from F-Zero (sans the side tilt, since that's atually from TP).

Although I can imagine the dev team would still make him generally slow but powerful, though. But give him moves much more accurate to his games. Like a teleport or a sword.

 

[Porygon2]

Ganondorf should be tweaked, not completely revamped. He's very satisfying to play as, and has gained something of a cult following, so I doubt he will undergo any major, major changes.

Still, I doubt anyone would complain if, say, his running speed were buffed - especially if he had a new animation to go along with it. I love the more animalistic, 'charging into battle' pose that some of the Brawl mods have. On top of that, buff a few moves, but give them aesthetic, warlock-y changes that keep similar hitboxes:

D Smash > Still attacks on either side, but does so with small columns of dark magic, rather than a kick. Picture it like a double hitting, bigger version of Mewtwo's D Smash.

D Special > Aerial version creates a shockwave after hitting the ground.

U Special > Revamped as a small range teleport with some control over angle. Still keeps the latch-on properties if it hits. That or Dark Fists.

Pummel > Something not terrible. Dark magic shock.

For a totally revamped character, we need blue pig Ganon. He would be far from a clone, and would keep up the Zelda pattern of Link > Toon Link, Zelda > Shiek, Ganondorf > Ganon.

I imagine that there's already hundreds of threads suggesting his potential moveset, but for my two cents, I picture him striking a balance between being huge combo bait and having the range to keep people from comboing him. It would take a skilled player, but proper timing of keepaway, Dedede-esque trident moves; ranged special attacks and opportunistic super armour would make him quite viable.

 

[Jotari]

Ganondorf should be tweaked, not completely revamped. He's very satisfying to play as, and has gained something of a cult following, so I doubt he will undergo any major, major changes.

Still, I doubt anyone would complain if, say, his running speed were buffed - especially if he had a new animation to go along with it. I love the more animalistic, 'charging into battle' pose that some of the Brawl mods have. On top of that, buff a few moves, but give them aesthetic, warlock-y changes that keep similar hitboxes:

D Smash > Still attacks on either side, but does so with small columns of dark magic, rather than a kick. Picture it like a double hitting, bigger version of Mewtwo's D Smash.

D Special > Aerial version creates a shockwave after hitting the ground.

U Special > Revamped as a small range teleport with some control over angle. Still keeps the latch-on properties if it hits. That or Dark Fists.

Pummel > Something not terrible. Dark magic shock.

For a totally revamped character, we need blue pig Ganon. He would be far from a clone, and would keep up the Zelda pattern of Link > Toon Link, Zelda > Shiek, Ganondorf > Ganon.

I imagine that there's already hundreds of threads suggesting his potential moveset, but for my two cents, I picture him striking a balance between being huge combo bait and having the range to keep people from comboing him. It would take a skilled player, but proper timing of keepaway, Dedede-esque trident moves; ranged special attacks and opportunistic super armour would make him quite viable.

I'd love to see pig beast Ganon as a fighter and honestly haven't seen it suggested before (though I'm sure it has). I'm a little disappointed I never thought of it myself.

 

[LancerStaff]

As interesting as the king of porkness would be, he's kinda huge. Pretty sure he's been shown to be bigger then SNES-onwards Ridley on more then one occasion.

Then there's there's the moveset issue. DDD is already the most extreme Heavyweight in the game, boasting power & disjointed range at the cost of having basically no fast anything at all. A character who's bigger, has a bigger weapon, and is the physical embodiment of power really wouldn't be able to have anything faster then DDD, and he's basically unusable in 1v1s for it.

 

[Quillion]

As interesting as the king of porkness would be, he's kinda huge. Pretty sure he's been shown to be bigger then SNES-onwards Ridley on more then one occasion.

Then there's there's the moveset issue. DDD is already the most extreme Heavyweight in the game, boasting power & disjointed range at the cost of having basically no fast anything at all. A character who's bigger, has a bigger weapon, and is the physical embodiment of power really wouldn't be able to have anything faster then DDD, and he's basically unusable in 1v1s for it.

Both DDD and Ganon would need a speedy yet fairly strong attack then. DDD used to have that chaingrab and a good projectile, but those had to be nerfed for being degenerate in the former and 8-player and the 3DS not handling it in the latter.

 

[Porygon2]

As interesting as the king of porkness would be, he's kinda huge. Pretty sure he's been shown to be bigger then SNES-onwards Ridley on more then one occasion.

Then there's there's the moveset issue. DDD is already the most extreme Heavyweight in the game, boasting power & disjointed range at the cost of having basically no fast anything at all. A character who's bigger, has a bigger weapon, and is the physical embodiment of power really wouldn't be able to have anything faster then DDD, and he's basically unusable in 1v1s for it.

Eh, I appreciate your points, though I do think that Ganon's shape would be easy enough to shrink. His fluctuating size could at least be chalked up to funky summoning / triforce / transformation magic - an excuse that Ridley doesn't quite have, space bird magic aside.

Ganon would essentially have to play like an more extreme risk / reward Dedede, though I don't necessarily think that there's anything wrong with that. Little Mac, Wii Fit and Bowser Jr. showed that the Smash devs really are great at bringing balanced variation into the game, despite the gripes of some fans.

 

[Jotari]

I'd imagine him to be noticeably bigger than Dedede and quite a bit slower which would make him a prime punching bag. However to compensate he have a lot of invincibility frames on most of his attacks making him a bit of a juggernaut. Still probably be considered a low tier character but that's just the kind of moveset I think would suit and make him distinct.

 

[LancerStaff]

Both DDD and Ganon would need a speedy yet fairly strong attack then. DDD used to have that chaingrab and a good projectile, but those had to be nerfed for being degenerate in the former and 8-player and the 3DS not handling it in the latter.

Gordo was a straight buff for FFAs though. It's fast, powerful, and doesn't require DDD to be close to hit with it. Since everybody else is going to be focused on each other he can afford to throw it out, but if he gets predictable then he's getting punished hard. If Gordos weren't so easy to bounce back or if DDD had much better CQC options then he'd would be the only character to use in FFA by a wide margin.

Eh, I appreciate your points, though I do think that Ganon's shape would be easy enough to shrink. His fluctuating size could at least be chalked up to funky summoning / triforce / transformation magic - an excuse that Ridley doesn't quite have, space bird magic aside.

Ganon would essentially have to play like an more extreme risk / reward Dedede, though I don't necessarily think that there's anything wrong with that. Little Mac, Wii Fit and Bowser Jr. showed that the Smash devs really are great at bringing balanced variation into the game, despite the gripes of some fans.

Everything past aLttP has been huge though... And yet there's the wrinkle that Beast Ganon is Dorf's Final Smash.

Like people have said, Dorf lacks consistency between fights. The only thing he has that would be suitable for a Final Smash is really just Beast Ganon. Unless you want something generic like Triforce Slash...

I'd imagine him to be noticeably bigger than Dedede and quite a bit slower which would make him a prime punching bag. However to compensate he have a lot of invincibility frames on most of his attacks making him a bit of a juggernaut. Still probably be considered a low tier character but that's just the kind of moveset I think would suit and make him distinct.

The whole "my moves beat out everybody else's" thing is already on Little Mac, and he's enough of a noob character already. Unless he had something ridiculous to balance it out like having basically no recovery (kinda awkward with the bat powers and all) then there's not a lot of wiggle room here.