The King of Klones (the Ganon character design thread)

[Enderwoman]

Nothing. They're perfect.










....though the default Dark Dive could be more powerful, because as of now there's really no reason to use it over Dark Fists unless you like situational stage spikes.

Now I'm gonna go pray that this thread doesn't become Falcondorf complaint thread #6426

 

[Jotari]

Add a small projectile to warlock thrust. It would make it more usable.

That's a good idea. He already does an attack very similar to Warlock Thrust that launches a projectile in Hyrule Warriors.

Change his neutral b to the cape like in Project M

Since it'd be a projectile reflecting move or something to flip people I think a Down or Side Special would work better.

Nothing. They're perfect.

What about Flame Wave? I can't really see any reason to use that over Flame Choke or Flame Chain. One of them will knock them with something of similar power while the other will leave them in a position where you can knock them with something of comparable power.

 

[Diddy Kong]

-Neutral B: is now a nerfed Dark Fist which shoots out a projectile.
-Down B: is a teleport move similar to MetaKnight's Down B, but stronger. Also useable for recovery. Hitting while teleporting is also possible.
-Up B: The better Custom version of this one, but it also spawns as Fire Keese to protect Ganon from edgeguarders.
-Side B: keep it the same.

 

[Jotari]

-Down B: is a teleport move similar to MetaKnight's Down B, but stronger. Also useable for recovery. Hitting while teleporting is also possible.

Just plain vanilla teleports are boring, especially since we have so many of them. I suggest he summon and throws his trident with the player having the ability to curve it like Link's boomerang. After it travels a set distance away from him (around half the width of battle field) he warps beside it and strikes.

I also don't think we need to keep all his Down Specials. Just give Wizard's Foot the power of Wizard's Assault and make it so you can angle the attack in the air. That way we get all variations of it in one move, the only thing were missing is the grounded version of Wizard's Drop kick, which travels over half the cast anyway. That'd free up the down special for things like a cape reflector or maybe short range stunning move.

 

[CyberHyperPhoenix]

The reason why I think that Ganondorf shouldn't get a new moveset is entirely on the point of alienating people who have already played and mained him in the past.
Real talk, if Ganondorf got a new moveset in smash 4, the only Non-DLC character I would be maining is Little Mac lol

 

[MagiusNecros]

Just give us a second Ganon. Worked well enough for Zelda and Samus.

 

[Jotari]

You really are reaching here. His purple fire isn't a reference to ALttP, it's just Falcon's fire given a re-color, nothing more. And are you saying that Sakurai couldn't give a moveset to a guy who "could fly, shoot lightning balls and punch the ground.", when he came up with movesets for characters who spent all their time in an Arwing or F-Zero machine? Yeah, I'm not buying it. Ganondorf has plenty to work with, but he was shoved into Melee last minute. Now that potential will never be realized all because of Sakurai's apparent quantity>quality mindset during Melee's development.


They changed his foward-air, Sakurai does care! You can hope for his custom specials to get the Palutena special treatment. I'll hope for Sakurai to not make the next Smash so Ganondorf at least has a shot at being freaking Ganondorf.

(sorry for the late reply, I wasn't getting email updates for this thread for some reason)
Well consider, why did they bother to change the fire? Ganon does use fire in A Link to the Past, they could have just kept in Falcon's fire. But they didn't because they wanted to distinguish them despite using the same moveset base. So they gave it the same colour as the waves of darkness he used at the start of his battle in Ocarina of Time. Why did they give him an explosion based up tilt or change his aerial? Because they wanted to distinguish them. I'm not going to deny Ganondorf is a clone but when they came to making the clone I believe they approached it with the mind set of "okay, this is his moveset, how can we make it more Ganondorf like?". That's why we got electrical attacks, an explosion attach, a new forward aerial and a different animation. And then the same design mindset was carried over to Brawl which gave us his entrance, forward tilt side special etc. Smash 4 only gave his the sword as a new Ganondorf inspired attack but I imagine that's because the timing and formula made it so specials had to be clone. I believe if given the time to give everyone unique specials they would give Ganondorf special attacks based on his games. If they didn't care then we wouldn't have made it so the aerial version of flame choke has the same animation as his ground punch in Ocarina of Time. That's meticulous detail that would go unnoticed by over 99% of people playing the game yet they still wanted to put it in because they care. They care both about representing the character and retaining the moveset he already has. The two things don't have to be so heavily opposed, they can coexist.

 

[Poxnixles]

The reason why I think that Ganondorf shouldn't get a new moveset is entirely on the point of alienating people who have already played and mained him in the past.
Real talk, if Ganondorf got a new moveset in smash 4, the only Non-DLC character I would be maining is Little Mac lol

Didn't Sakurai basically say this was the reason they made Doc a separate fighter again rather than a costume?

 

[Xinc]

Neutral B: Hold B to unleash a projectille perhaps (brawl minus, yes), or Flame Wave/Gerudo Dragon
Side B: Opponent cannot tech
Up B: Knockback a bit stronger and no lag upon landing when grabbing an opponent.
Down B: Spikes throughout the entire animation. Wider window for ledge canceling.

 

[Codaption]

Didn't Sakurai basically say this was the reason they made Doc a separate fighter again rather than a costume?

I personally dislike the good doctor, but considering he was actually more popular than his plumber counterpart in Melee I wouldn't be surprised if that was the case.

 

[Blobface]

Only thing I'd change is to supercharge his grab Up-B's so they're actually useful. Maybe all the way up to like, 25% (he electrocutes you and blows you up. How does that only do 11 damage?) I'd also change it so it's knockback is backwards/upwards so they can't just tech the stage and bop you in the face.

 

[Tino]

Only thing I'd change is to supercharge his grab Up-B's so they're actually useful. Maybe all the way up to like, 25% (he electrocutes you and blows you up. How does that only do 11 damage?) I'd also change it so it's knockback is backwards/upwards so they can't just tech the stage and bop you in the face.

^ This right here.

Other than that, everything else are fine to me.

 

[MagiusNecros]

Change the Up B or make Dark Fists the standard.

 

[Jotari]

Thinking about it, they could easily merge Flame Choke and Flame Wave as well. Hold B to Blast enemies away or simply press it to knock them to the ground. It'd give the move more diversity and would be helpful in the air if you want to grab them but don't want to suicide.

 

[WwwWario]

We need to find a way to make Sakurai buff Ganon's knockback and damage on Dark Dive on the next patch. That's the one thing that bugs me with Ganon. He makes them explode, it does only 11 damage and has SO little knockback. I don't know how we're going to make this happen, but there has to be a way to let him know. A poll? Something?

 

[Jotari]

I think the tracking on Dark Dive would need to be improved too. I haven't even bothered trying to use it as an attack since Melee since its so much grab with.

 

[Rialdospaldacht]

I agree with Dark Dive. Either make it Fists by default, or give it Melee levels of damage and knockback again. As an attack, it's arguably the most worthless move in the game. I can't think of a single situation you'd want to use it.

 

[Piedro]

I agree with Dark Dive. Either make it Fists by default, or give it Melee levels of damage and knockback again. As an attack, it's arguably the most worthless move in the game. I can't think of a single situation you'd want to use it.

Vertical recovery? :/

 

[Jotari]

Vertical recovery? :/

I agree with Dark Dive. Either make it Fists by default, or give it Melee levels of damage and knockback again. As an attack, it's arguably the most worthless move in the game. I can't think of a single situation you'd want to use it.

It's still a useful move, but as an attacking option it's one of the worst.

 

[MrAnimorie]

Rather than his custom warlock blade be a thrust, it should be an overhead to ground slam, possibly a spike if done in the air.

 

[Rialdospaldacht]

Actually, while I'm at it, just completely copy/paste WFT's B over his. Animation and everything I don't care. It'd still be the most Ganondorfy thing in his moveset, and on a more serious note, probably vastly more useful to him than the current B.

 

[Candlejack]

I just need wizkick to be a little bit safer to use frame data wise, and for heavens sake let warlock punch break shields consistently. It's a shame to do a reverse warlock punch and someone shields it without it breaking.

 

[Dark Phazon]

I completely agree about making his UpB stronger.

 

[MagiusNecros]

I think his UP B is like the worst in the game. Even Yoshi's regular one gets better application.

 

[WwwWario]

Glad to see you people agree. Ganon's Up B is so cool! The way he shocks them before making THAT explosion... it doesn't only look cool, but feels satisfying to hit with. But the lack of power is just too bad.

 

[Tino]

If they were to change Ganondorf's movesets in this game, I would stop playing as him completely.

 

[Jotari]

I know everyone and their mother has a counter but I think having one on Ganondorf would actually really suit his moveset. He has a punish based moveset which means it's already counter based in design. Giving him an actual counter would only highlight that.

 

[adom4]

Just give Dark dive the melee damage + knockback & i'll be happy.

 

[Enderwoman]

Just give Dark dive the melee damage + knockback & i'll be happy.

Yeah, same. Like, at the moment there is no reason to use it over Dark Fists and its power isn't enough to justify using it at all. It feels like a joke move.

 

[Xinc]

Yeah, same. Like, at the moment there is no reason to use it over Dark Fists and its power isn't enough to justify using it at all. It feels like a joke move.

Going back to my changes and adding:

But overall, this would not make Ganondorf OP but fix a lot of his flaws and give him a better competitive standing.

Dark Dive: Better recovery please. Also more knock back with the grab area. Also please fix the part where you receive lag if you reach the ground upon grabbing someone.
Dark Fists: Make it so the first hit will result in a guaranteed second hit. (Sometimes it misses) Unless if you're off the stage, which the first hit could result in a stage spike.
Dark Vault: More horizontal recovery and knockback

Wizard's Foot: Spikes throughout and aerial gives jump back. (I want)
WDK: Give the jump back maybe (I dunno)
Assault: GIVE THE JUMP BACK AND SPIKE THE ENTIRE DURATION (We need a reason to use this)

Warlock Blade: More power at the tip (It's not bad)
Warlock Fast punch: Flame Wave/Flame Chain (I dunno, it seemed like a good option)
Warlock Punch: Charge it up for a GANONDOUKEN (Projectile pls)

Flame Choke: No tech pls. Also more distance (So like from Brawl)
Flame Wave: More distance, less lag (We need a reason to use this)
Flame Chain: Less cool down (It's fine as is, really)

 

[Enderwoman]

The only change I'd make to Warlock Thrust is its ending lag. For such a weak and fast attack its end lag is absurd.

 

[Z1GMA]

Untechable Gerudo.

Assault: GIVE THE JUMP BACK AND SPIKE THE ENTIRE DURATION (We need a reason to use this)

Flame Wave: More distance, less lag (We need a reason to use this)

I agree it's a bad move, but, it's decent for Team Combos as well as saving teamates with bad horizontal recoveries.
I still wouldn't use it w/o a strong gameplan and smart teamate, though.
And I'd never use it in 1on1.

Flame Wave is useful on stages with platforms, especially stages with high platforms as it kills at around 70% (aerial version), and it does 20% damage.
It's can sometimes also be effective in teams as the shockwave wrecks surrounding ppl.

 

[FriendlySpaceDragon@32]

Just some rants though. Yet, I hope the people can actually read my comment carefully. I have heard people, regardless of detractors and supporters of current Ganondorf design. I do hope that people can realize that character treatments are not equal. For a rather notorious example:

-There are some "animal lovers" who shout out for the protection of endangered animals; however, the "lovers" probably could not name one endangered animal in Asia beside panda or take care only cats and dogs whatever they prefer.

Similar circumstances apply beside some twists. Ganondorf DID earn some better treatment since Brawl, but, it is not what a character should deserve regardless how successful a franchise or how popular a series is known. Ironically, some fans still deny the obvious and keep on supporting. Also, some fans already have earned what they have wanted, so the attitudes may be already different.

I do NOT care I got thumb up or down like alike. I only hope people can stop acting delusional and understand they we do have power to influence one another if we can accept one another without having some prejudice or bias involve. They unnecessary bias/arguments and cycle of digression should be STOP. If one does not want Ganondorf change for various reasons. Cool, then beware that this discussion since this discussion is for people who want declone Ganondorf. We are still welcomed to people of various sides. But, please stop throw in biases or digressions.

 

[Jotari]

Just some rants though. Yet, I hope the people can actually read my comment carefully. I have heard people, regardless of detractors and supporters of current Ganondorf design. I do hope that people can realize that character treatments are not equal. For a rather notorious example:

-There are some "animal lovers" who shout out for the protection of endangered animals; however, the "lovers" probably could not name one endangered animal in Asia beside panda or take care only cats and dogs whatever they prefer.

Similar circumstances apply beside some twists. Ganondorf DID earn some better treatment since Brawl, but, it is not what a character should deserve regardless how successful a franchise or how popular a series is known. Ironically, some fans still deny the obvious and keep on supporting. Also, some fans already have earned what they have wanted, so the attitudes may be already different.

I do NOT care I got thumb up or down like alike. I only hope people can stop acting delusional and understand they we do have power to influence one another if we can accept one another without having some prejudice or bias involve. They unnecessary bias/arguments and cycle of digression should be STOP. If one does not want Ganondorf change for various reasons. Cool, then beware that this discussion since this discussion is for people who want declone Ganondorf. We are still welcomed to people of various sides. But, please stop throw in biases or digressions.

To completely miss the point you were making, I'm sure plenty of people are aware the Bengal Tiger is under threat too.

 

[FriendlySpaceDragon@32]

I was saying that some fans are making hasty accusations without even want to know the issues or the topics. I am hopping that people could spent more time on discussing in depth than spamming bias arguments. That is all. Also, you did make a solid point too.

Also making some dumb rants because some previous arguments are either full of biases or detractors. I do not hope the Ridley discussion happens again. It is whether the detractors know their positions in the discussion and leave.

 

[Jotari]

First and foremost, THIS THREAD IS NOT FOR DISCUSSING WHETHER GANONDORF SHOULD GET A WEAPON, ONLY WHAT IT WOULD BE LIKE IF HE DID. Sorry to go all caps on the matter but I can't stress that enough. I want Ganondorf to stay fist to fist yet still I can't help wondering what they would change given a complete overall. So let's forget about what we think should happen and just theorize what things would be like if this did happen.

 

[Tarry]

Do we really need another one of these?

 

[goodgrief]

he would be broken. /end thread

 

[Jotari]

Do we really need another one of these?

Well I haven't actually seen any threads legitimately examining the moveset possibilities instead of just arguing whether it should happen.

 

[divade]

It would be tough to make him while keeping him unique from Ike. I did however want to see a moveset that came from his games so I'll say a couple things.
I think he should have his cape whip from the tennis battle in Oot, maybe have it be a counter that can reflect projectiles properly.
Sword moves would likely come from twillight or Windwaker maybe.
looking at

at 1:35 I think his side smash should be a two hit like link, but with elbow to sword swing.
at 1:55 He walks into a downward swing, I feel that could be his fast walk and side tilt, or his run and dash attack.
A jab would be one, long reach sword stab.