The King of Klones (the Ganon character design thread)

[Enderwoman]

So long as Falcondorf continues to exist (at least without a downlaodable alternative), no.

If you're just on this board to complain then you probably shouldn't be on this board. Go find another character or something, jeez. I bet you'd like Robin and Ike.

http://smashboards.com/forums/robin.489/
http://smashboards.com/forums/ike.479/

 

[Jotari]

I just want to put down, for the record, that attacks originating in smash have transitioned into their main series before. As I mentioned above, Ganondorf uses Warlock Punch in Hyrule Warriors. Mario's forward smash became the Firebran in Superstar Saga and Samus got a flamethrower move in Metroid Prime. I'm sure if you dig a bit you could find a lot more.

 

[MagiusNecros]

Samus doesn't have a flamethrower in Smash.

That said. No. They shouldn't align Ganondorf with Sakurai's headcanon.

Same with Lu Bu Ridley.

 

[PhantomShab]

main series

Hyrule Warriors.

 

[Jotari]

Huh. Actually all three of the games I mentioned are spin offs. Funny.

 

[MagiusNecros]

HW is a Zelda game but different parallel dimension.

Huh. Actually all three of the games I mentioned are spin offs. Funny.

Your previous post implied Warlock Punch transitioned into the mainline Zelda series. Of which you cited Hyrule Warriors. A spinoff that takes place in a alternate time line of sorts.

 

[PhantomShab]

Huh. Actually all three of the games I mentioned are spin offs. Funny.

How is Metroid Prime a spinoff?

 

[Quillion]

If you're just on this board to complain then you probably shouldn't be on this board. Go find another character or something, jeez. I bet you'd like Robin and Ike.

http://smashboards.com/forums/robin.489/
http://smashboards.com/forums/ike.479/

Well I'm done with Falcondorf. I did my best to tolerate him in Melee and Brawl, but I'm not taking him sitting down this time.

Unless, of course, the Zelda team actually does stop insisting on him using swords (though that wouldn't solve the problem of Ganondorf lacking ranged projectiles).

 

[Enderwoman]

Well I'm done with Falcondorf. I did my best to tolerate him in Melee and Brawl, but I'm not taking him sitting down this time.

Unless, of course, the Zelda team actually does stop insisting on him using swords (though that wouldn't solve the problem of Ganondorf lacking ranged projectiles).

Well yeah, you couldn't possibly make it more clear you dislike Falcondorf. But your constant complaining on this board is obnoxious to people who actually like how he currently is. You are not doing anybody any favors, by doing the same crap over and over.

(also why the hell does ganondorf need a projectile)

 

[MagiusNecros]

Ganon needs a reflector on his jab or all his attacks. Because I said so.

 

[Jotari]

How is Metroid Prime a spinoff?

It's made by a different company, has a big change in gameplay and takes place in an alternate canon. Exactly like Hyrule Warriors. Only difference being Retro Studios is owned by Nintendo despite being an American company.

 

[MagiusNecros]

It's made by a different company, has a big change in gameplay and takes place in an alternate canon. Exactly like Hyrule Warriors. Only difference being Retro Studios is owned by Nintendo despite being an American company.

Nah man Prime like happens before Super. In my head it does. Also I wouldn't call the Prime trilogy a spinoff. More a subseries.

 

[Jotari]

Nah man Prime like happens before Super. In my head it does. Also I wouldn't call the Prime trilogy a spinoff. More a subseries.

If it would to be shoved into the main canon then it'd happen before Metroid II since there are still Metroids and Metroid II leads directly into Super. The problems arise when you consider the fact that Metroids are a lot more widespread and considered a lot less dangerous in the Prime Series. The design of the pirates are also completely different and Mother Brain is strangely absent, maybe killed in the first game which still happened in Prime's canon. In Other M Samus also says she's never been on a joint mission since becoming a bounty hunter, completely ignoring the battle on Norion and assisting the demolition squad on the Pirate Homeworld. Likewise you probably could shove Hyrule Warriors into the main canon somewhere since it does make reference to the other games but I'd video both series as subseries for the same reasons (along with the RPG Mario games).

 

[MagiusNecros]

By extension by the thought of shoving HW in the mainline we can make HW Fabudorf a thing huh.

Works for me.

 

[Triggerpig]

If it would to be shoved into the main canon then it'd happen before Metroid II since there are still Metroids and Metroid II leads directly into Super. The problems arise when you consider the fact that Metroids are a lot more widespread and considered a lot less dangerous in the Prime Series. The design of the pirates are also completely different and Mother Brain is strangely absent, maybe killed in the first game which still happened in Prime's canon. In Other M Samus also says she's never been on a joint mission since becoming a bounty hunter, completely ignoring the battle on Norion and assisting the demolition squad on the Pirate Homeworld. Likewise you probably could shove Hyrule Warriors into the main canon somewhere since it does make reference to the other games but I'd video both series as subseries for the same reasons (along with the RPG Mario games).

Hyrule warriors is quite literally impossible to put into canon, when you consider just how it'd **** up all the other timelines and the events that happen in them( wish we'd had some side campaigns taking place in the actual wars that happened in hyrule), metroid prime is in canon i believe it's been stated before to happen after the original metroid which explains the lack of mother brain and the lack of fear of the metroids especially when you consider the fact that phazon was a bigger threat at the time then the metroids could ever be, we don't even see other chars then samus up until 3 where the threat of phazon was high, the scene in other M could very well have been an oversight on the writers part or they may not have even played the prime games and it's not a big deal unlike if they'd completely retconned phazon or something, besides other M's writing....not the greatest if that counts as a retcon you might as well retcon ridley in super metroid as well due to samus's little freakout.

Honestly I don't see why canon matters anyway, most of the attacks other chars do fit with them but they are'nt ripped straight out of canon(aside from maybe megaman and a few others).

imo the ganon in smash feels like ganon regardless of his lack of weaponry(though a float ability like project m would be cool), ganon is an intellectual and physical powerhouse, you have to be patient, wait for your opponents to make a mistake and then beat the everloving hell out of them, which honestly feels like ganon from the games to me.

 

[Jotari]

Hyrule warriors is quite literally impossible to put into canon, when you consider just how it'd **** up all the other timelines and the events that happen in them( wish we'd had some side campaigns taking place in the actual wars that happened in hyrule), metroid prime is in canon i believe it's been stated before to happen after the original metroid which explains the lack of mother brain and the lack of fear of the metroids especially when you consider the fact that phazon was a bigger threat at the time then the metroids could ever be, we don't even see other chars then samus up until 3 where the threat of phazon was high, the scene in other M could very well have been an oversight on the writers part or they may not have even played the prime games and it's not a big deal unlike if they'd completely retconned phazon or something, besides other M's writing....not the greatest if that counts as a retcon you might as well retcon ridley in super metroid as well due to samus's little freakout.

Honestly I don't see why canon matters anyway, most of the attacks other chars do fit with them but they are'nt ripped straight out of canon(aside from maybe megaman and a few others).

imo the ganon in smash feels like ganon regardless of his lack of weaponry(though a float ability like project m would be cool), ganon is an intellectual and physical powerhouse, you have to be patient, wait for your opponents to make a mistake and then beat the everloving hell out of them, which honestly feels like ganon from the games to me.

The only issue with Hyrule Warriors is that it's transdimensional. If the timeline was important than we'd regulate most of the games as non canon since they happen on split timelines, especially the one where Link loses since that's just like a hypothetical. The game doesn't just pull characters out of it ass, it talks about time portals and stuff to bring them there so if anything it could tie all the games together.

Say what you will about Other M's writing but one thing it did do was firmly establish its relationship to the vanilla Metroid games. Including flashbacks to both Super Metroid and Metroid II and connecting itself very firmly to Metroid Fusion even though that happens later. What would Samus' freak out mean anything in Super Metroid needs to be retconed?

BTW, I realize this is somewhat off topic so I'm cool with no more replies. I'll just add that that Link in Soul Calibur II uses a lot of his Smash attacks and even has the same names for them. It's also, coincidentally or otherwise, the first instance of his Shield Bash ability. So regardless of canon, my original point stands that a character's abilities in one appearance can and has affected their abilities in other appearances.

 

[MagiusNecros]

It also got the go ahead by Aonuma and other Zelda devs.

Samus having a disorder regarding Ridley after killing him on Zebes is natural honestly just the acting and voice direction was subpar.

 

[Triggerpig]

Well the timeline does matter but only if you like to look deeper into the games(as I do) such as with ganondorfs development, it's very much a dark souls to dark souls 2 thing, implying connections so the viewers can fill in the gaps if they want and I Love that form of storytelling, in hyrule warriors case, characters that should'nt be fighting are fighting, zant is alive as is ghirahim(though ghirahims fate is somewhat unknown) and I feel there's alot of events that would mess up whats going on in the other games such as the war on skyloft and the sealed grounds.
Other M referenced alot of it's previous works admittedly but did'nt work well with them, and the only reason the prime games were'nt mentioned is due to them not being Sakamoto's babys, they don't have much to do with the rest of the games but that does'nt mean they're not canon.
But yep this is getting off topic so i'll leave it here, i'm pretty into the zelda canon and despise other M so I wanted to throw my two cents into this XD.

 

[MagiusNecros]

Thing is with Ganon here is they want to exude their Base OoT Ganon and transition to TP Ganon which mainly used strong attacks and no sorcery unlike OoT Ganon who used a bit of everything. And since in Melee they cut corners with him with the rise of TP they were able to cheesecake and rationalize Falcondorf with the addition of saying those who dealt with it would be sad if he changed.

Meanwhile on the same token...Zelda still free falls from Aerial Side B.

 

[snuffysam]

See, here's the way to look at this.

SITUATION - Ganondorf's moveset is passable at best. He's powerful, he's scary, you need lots of planning to use him effectively, and his final smash, forward tilt, and sort-of side b are the only things actually from a game. That's about it. Out of all the clones, he makes the least sense (at least Pichu is from the same evolution line as Pikachu, Toon Link is a reincarnation of Link, Lucina pretended to be Marth for a while, etc). It's been three games. Something has to be done to fix it.

SOLUTION 1 - Get rid of his moveset except the three moves that make sense and his unique properties, and maybe give him dark fists for the up b. Other than that, anything is fair game. Twin swords, make him faster, energy projectiles, floating, reflector, trident, whatever floats your boat.
PROBLEM - While impractical and not very faithful, Warlock Punch is cool, yo. Same with the Volcano Kick. It would also be a shame to take away a playstyle as unique as Ganondorf's by adding floating and the like. Plus, I've been racking my brain, and I'm having a hard time coming up with something really unique for Ganondorf. Twin swords is really just aesthetic, Peach floats, everyone and their mom has an energy projectile and reflector, and all the trident could do that swords wouldn't is extra damage against the Fire Emblem characters. Dead Man's Volley is cool, but it'd be essentially a horizontal version of the Gordo. The only thing I can think of that could be interesting is a jab that reflects, but that's just a neat touch. Maybe his smash attacks are melee when uncharged, but ranged when fully charged? I dunno, man.

SOLUTION 2 - Change his moveset somewhat, but not too much. Increase his speed a bit, and give him the sword for some of his smashes, tilts, and/or aerials.
PROBLEM - Like any Zelda fan would be satisfied with that. Besides, that only gives Ganondorf 2/3 of the methods he's ever used for fighting. Where would his energy projectile attacks be? People like the side b, the neutral b is fun, and the up b can't really be Dead Man's Volley practically. The down b could work, but what character gets just a projectile for their down b? Peach & Link pluck stuff that they throw normally, and Zelda's is more of a ranged melee attack than a basic projectile. I guess make Dead Man's Volley the neutral b, Warlock Punch the side b, and Flame Choke the down b? That's just weird.

SOLUTION 3 - No need to get rid of the moveset at all- just offload it onto someone else! Namely, Black Shadow. He's from F-Zero, so it makes sense that he'd be a clone. Plus, he's some sort of dark magic guy I guess, and he's got huge pecs. Fits the bill quite nicely.
PROBLEM - Man, even assuming F-Zero deserves another rep (and it hasn't had a game in ages so it's probably pretty low on the list), Black Shadow would NOT be the first on any F-Zero fan's list. I love F-Zero, and I will be the first to admit that Black Shadow is a dumb character. Even his name is stupid. Like, he's Captain Falcon's nemesis? But, like, 99% of people would want Samurai Goroh, Falcon's rival, over Shadow. At least Jody Summer was an important character in the anime and is listed as being athletic in her biography, and at least Dr. Stewart and Pico were in the original game. Adding in Black Shadow would be like adding in Dr. Andonauts from the Mother games. Like, yeah, he's in multiple games, and he's super important to the plot of both, but... why not Po(r)ky, Paula, Jeff, or Ninten first?

SOLUTION 4 - We already have two Links and two Zeldas-ish. Why not add Toon Dorf or Warrior Dorf, and keep this guy the way he is?
PROBLEM - Yeah, but that does bring up another host of problems. First off, it's a bit weird from a Smash Bros perspective to have an alternate version of a character and not have them play pretty much the same- we already have Young Link, Toon Link, and Dr. Mario to show for that. But whatever. Let's assume Sakurai adds Toon Ganondorf and takes some inspiration from Warriors- not too much of a stretch, seeing as both Mario and Bowser seem to have inspiration from Super Mario RPG, another non-Nintendo Nintendo spinoff. Would you make Toonendorf faster than Twilendorf? If anything, Wind Waker had the slow, hesitant guy, who snapped unexpectedly, while Twilight Princess had the faster, angrier one, a bit less like a lumbering old man. Plus, Wind Waker was the guy who was LEAST about magic- he would likely just be a swordsman, maybe borrowing some attacks from Warriors. Is that really the unique character you want in Smash? Would that really satisfy the Zelda fans?

SOLUTION 5 - People want to cut Lucina and Dark Pit. Why not just cut Ganondorf?
PROBLEM - Lol yeah no.

So there you have it. In the end, there's no perfect solution. Nothing that wouldn't cause some eyebrow raises and groans, anyway. I guess solution 4 is the most likely one, given DLC, but looking at poll results so far I wouldn't count on it. I think each Smash game will slightly differentiate Ganondorf as it's been doing, and that's that. It's a shame, but what can you do?

 

[Codaption]

The way I see it, what people have been saying about implementing his magical abilities makes more sense than dual swords. regardless of whether he's wielding one (or two) a lot of the times, I just can't picture the guy with one and still keeping the same charm as he does now.

If there's a way to change the animations of his moves without doing so much to change their functionality, that would be superb...which is where magic comes in. Magic augmenting physical attacks is something that's really, really cool. I mean.....we KINDA get that with Robin, but let's face it- he's more about the magic aspect of it, the powerful projectiles, the arcfire/thunder traps that set up for attacks with a sword that's pretty wimpy without the magic AND functions more like a tome in the main Fire Emblem series! Taking already-powerful attacks and giving them that dark magic "oomph" is something that really appeals to me.

The only thing that I would recommend specifically is to move the utilt to his side smash. That would seal the deal in my eyes.

 

[Quillion]

The way I see it, what people have been saying about implementing his magical abilities makes more sense than dual swords. regardless of whether he's wielding one (or two) a lot of the times, I just can't picture the guy with one and still keeping the same charm as he does now.

If there's a way to change the animations of his moves without doing so much to change their functionality, that would be superb...which is where magic comes in. Magic augmenting physical attacks is something that's really, really cool. I mean.....we KINDA get that with Robin, but let's face it- he's more about the magic aspect of it, the powerful projectiles, the arcfire/thunder traps that set up for attacks with a sword that's pretty wimpy without the magic AND functions more like a tome in the main Fire Emblem series! Taking already-powerful attacks and giving them that dark magic "oomph" is something that really appeals to me.

The only thing that I would recommend specifically is to move the utilt to his side smash. That would seal the deal in my eyes.

This is something I don't understand about the "punches are more brutal".

If anything, Ganondorf having a sword or trident would be waaaaaayyyyyy more brutal than using punches and kicks. He's still using his Triforce-boosted strength, so if he's using a bladed weapon, you're going to get sliced in two or skewered clean through.

The punches and kicks he has now make no sense, and they're unfitting of an iconic fantasy Evil King. He can use one or two or three like Ike and Shulk do, but I'm sick and tired of it after trying my best to tolerate it for two games.

 

[Quillion]

Thing is with Ganon here is they want to exude their Base OoT Ganon and transition to TP Ganon which mainly used strong attacks and no sorcery unlike OoT Ganon who used a bit of everything. And since in Melee they cut corners with him with the rise of TP they were able to cheesecake and rationalize Falcondorf with the addition of saying those who dealt with it would be sad if he changed.

Meanwhile on the same token...Zelda still free falls from Aerial Side B.

TP Ganon used Sorcery in the horseback fight and while possessing Zelda:

But honestly, the thing with Falcondorf is that Sakurai... hasn't really explained at all why he's not changing him, and it's really getting on my nerves even more than him not changing him. Please Sakurai!

 

[Codaption]

Oooh, I did forget about the trident. I liked that idea.

 

[MagiusNecros]

Everyone forgets about the trident of power. Which doesn't really surprise me.

 

[Jotari]

Everyone forgets about the trident of power. Which doesn't really surprise me.

Out of curiosity, when is it ever called the Trident of Power? I've seen that phrase thrown about a bit but it's never mentioned in Four Swords Adventures where the Trident plays a significant role and I don't think it's ever even referenced at all in the other games.

 

[MagiusNecros]

Out of curiosity, when is it ever called the Trident of Power? I've seen that phrase thrown about a bit but it's never mentioned in Four Swords Adventures where the Trident plays a significant role and I don't think it's ever even referenced at all in the other games.

Maybe once in lttp. Otherwise fan name. Just the weapon of choice for pig ganon in most installments.

 

[Jotari]

Nope. Doesn't appear in either of the text dumps (SNES and GBA)

http://www.zeldalegends.net/files/emulation/dumps/zelda3/z3dump(evilgiegue).txt

http://www.gamefaqs.com/gba/561559-the-legend-of-zelda-a-link-to-the-past/faqs/29462

Which isn't really surprising since its just something he uses in battle meaning the game has little reason or opportunity to mention it.

 

[MagiusNecros]

I think it's just a fan name. Probably since Ganon has the ToP in most games they affixed a honorific and labeled it Trident of Power. And I guess it stuck with me ever since.

 

[The Shadow Emperor]

Trident of Power is a fan name for the trident in FSA.

 

[Duplighost]

I feel like it is too late to change Ganon at this point. Although this has been stated before, people would not like the change. I realize Smash is all about change and new experiences, but to Ganon mains, completely altering his moveset would be detrimental to their playstyle. In essence, it is similar to changing Diddy or Sheik's moveset completely. It would affect people in various ways, and more than 90% of Ganon mains would be unhappy.

 

[Codaption]

I feel like it is too late to change Ganon at this point. Although this has been stated before, people would not like the change. I realize Smash is all about change and new experiences, but to Ganon mains, completely altering his moveset would be detrimental to their playstyle. In essence, it is similar to changing Diddy or Sheik's moveset completely. It would affect people in various ways, and more than 90% of Ganon mains would be unhappy.

^^^^^^^This. So much of this. It's been brought up before, heck, I've brought it up before, but I'm glad somebody was able to make an actual comparison to other characters.

I mean....look at Dedede. Very little changed about him, and yet his entire playstyle underwent a major change.

 

[MagiusNecros]

I'll make Sakurai a deal. This current Ganon can stay if he makes Ridley playable. *smirk*

 

[XxSmashM4sterxX]

So many butthurt kiddies here not used to people not circlejerking them off all the time. I like Ganon but I also agree with what you're saying.

 

[WorstSSBPlayerInTheWorld]

yes, imagine him using up tilt during a boss fight : )

 

[Quillion]

I feel like it is too late to change Ganon at this point. Although this has been stated before, people would not like the change. I realize Smash is all about change and new experiences, but to Ganon mains, completely altering his moveset would be detrimental to their playstyle. In essence, it is similar to changing Diddy or Sheik's moveset completely. It would affect people in various ways, and more than 90% of Ganon mains would be unhappy.

No **** Ganon mains wouldn't be happy.

But the rest of everyone else who hates Ganondorf's moveset and refuses to use him would be happy. And I've encountered a lot more Falcondorf haters than I do mains. Anyone who says that "more people like Ganon the way he is" is suffering from severe Fan Myopia.

Heck, it's probably best if Falcondorf hate just continues on in that thread I made for a separate "canon" Ganondorf for DLC since at least I won't give up hope.

I'll make Sakurai a deal. This current Ganon can stay if he makes Ridley playable. *smirk*

This is what I'm thinking.

Most people here don't even like Falcondorf and just accept him because "he's there in some fashion". Unlike Ridley who's there in no fashion.

Therefore, the only people who like/tolerate Falcondorf are just Ridley fans.

 

[Jotari]

No **** Ganon mains wouldn't be happy.
Most people here don't even like Falcondorf and just accept him because "he's there in some fashion". Unlike Ridley who's there in no fashion.

Therefore, the only people who like/tolerate Falcondorf are just Ridley fans.

There's also people who like him purely based on the moveset and don't care about the history at all.

 

[1FC0]

Decloning Ganondorf would just alienate people who like playing as him (like myself), and the only good it would do is pleasing Zelda fans who already have 3 other perfectly represented characters.

Which 3? TL, Link, And Sheik? Because Zelda is not very good represented indeed. I am not sure about Sheik though, I only know him from OoT.

 

[MagiusNecros]

This is what I'm thinking.

Most people here don't even like Falcondorf and just accept him because "he's there in some fashion". Unlike Ridley who's there in no fashion.

Therefore, the only people who like/tolerate Falcondorf are just Ridley fans.

I hate both Ganon and Ridley in this game. I only play Ganon because of the character itself.

And I am a big Ridley supporter and his characterization in this iteration of smash is insulting.

 

[Enderwoman]

Which 3? TL, Link, And Sheik? Because Zelda is not very good represented indeed. I am not sure about Sheik though, I only know him from OoT.

Link, Zelda, Sheik and TL are all fine. How is Zelda not represented well? Her specials are magic attacks from Zelda named after the goddesses and summons a recurring enemy from the franchise, she uses magic in all of her attacks (except D tilt) and her Final Smash is her signature Light Arrows. What's the problem with it?

Most of Sheik's attacks are made up but they fit a ninja. Ninja stars, smoke bombs to disappear, flips, kicks, there is alot.

I hate both Ganon and Ridley in this game. I only play Ganon because of the character itself.

And I am a big Ridley supporter and his characterization in this iteration of smash is insulting.

A giant dragon beast acts like a giant dragon beast. How horrible.