The King of Klones (the Ganon character design thread)

[TTTTTsd]

P:M 3.5 Ganondorf doesn't change him at his core, well it does, but it's a very natural change (not like giving him a sword which, IMO, is really really boring, we've got enough swordies). The float adds to his arsenal, replaces nothing (Warlock Punch FSmash, DTaunt shenanigans.) Everything that made me want to play the character is still there, but with more.

 

[-Jax]

If I was on the development team, and this issue was presented to me as something that needed to be solved, I would come up with the following (given the time and resources were actually available to redesign Ganon in the first place):

I would add Demise (from Skyward Sword if people don't know him) to the game and give him Ganon's moveset. Demise actually is a close combat fighter in the game, though he's using a sword instead of his fists, but that shouldn't really change the overal moveset. The moveset would only need some visual changes, replacing some normals with a Sword-based equivalent, and adding a lightning effect to the moves instead of Ganon's 'darkness' effect.

Additionally, Demise has the same 'Brutal Evil' feel as Ganon, keeping that feeling of the character intact as well, and he's a Zelda character to boot! It would essentially keep most of the key likeable things about the original Ganon in the game.

After that, Ganon would be available for a completely new moveset, much more true to his in-game appearances. It is a bit of a shame that his Smash appearance became based off a Captain Falcon clone, even if the two characters are nothing alike anymore, but I really love his current playstyle too much to see it go completely.

How would you guys feel if this had happened with this smash release? Would you think it's weird or downright unacceptable to have a 'newcomer' with a veteran playstyle, while giving the veteran a new moveset? Even if they explained their choice when the hypothetical announcement was made?

 

[Sykkamorre]

If I was on the development team, and this issue was presented to me as something that needed to be solved, I would come up with the following (given the time and resources were actually available to redesign Ganon in the first place):

I would add Demise (from Skyward Sword if people don't know him) to the game and give him Ganon's moveset. Demise actually is a close combat fighter in the game, though he's using a sword instead of his fists, but that shouldn't really change the overal moveset. The moveset would only need some visual changes, replacing some normals with a Sword-based equivalent, and adding a lightning effect to the moves instead of Ganon's 'darkness' effect.

Additionally, Demise has the same 'Brutal Evil' feel as Ganon, keeping that feeling of the character intact as well, and he's a Zelda character to boot! It would essentially keep most of the key likeable things about the original Ganon in the game.

After that, Ganon would be available for a completely new moveset, much more true to his in-game appearances. It is a bit of a shame that his Smash appearance became based off a Captain Falcon clone, even if the two characters are nothing alike anymore, but I really love his current playstyle too much to see it go completely.

How would you guys feel if this had happened with this smash release? Would you think it's weird or downright unacceptable to have a 'newcomer' with a veteran playstyle, while giving the veteran a new moveset? Even if they explained their choice when the hypothetical announcement was made?

While it's a good idea... it'd still irritate the hell outta me.

But not for any decent reason, just that I want Warriordorf if we're getting a new dorf char.

 

[Storm Eagle]

Ganondorf should get TWO swords to make him unique from the other swordies in the game.

 

[Reila]

Ganondorf should get a trident, if anything. **** swords, there are more than enough sword fighters in the game already.

 

[MagiusNecros]

Ganondorf should get a trident, if anything. **** swords, there are more than enough sword fighters in the game already.

On the same token. There are too many dweebs that fight with their hands and feet.

 

[Reila]

On the same token. There are too many dweebs that fight with their hands and feet.

Yeah, that is totally the same thing.

 

[MagiusNecros]

On a more serious note Ganon does deserve his Trident. And no one in the game uses a spear like weapon yet.

 

[Ryu Myuutsu]

Ganondorf is not a clone of Captain Falcon, he is a semi clone at the very least. He has some moves from Brawl onward that make him different from the Capn', like his tilts, USmash, Fair, Jab and his Side B; plus both play very, very different. Ganondorf's current moveset takes cues from Twilight Princess, just watch the final battle against him in that game.

Anyways, I disagree, Ganondorf is fine the way he is because he has been shown to be capable in hand-to-hand combat. Yes, it's true he has used his magic blasts and a sword but there is also stuff like this that shows that the king of evil is not afraid of using his fists:

Spoiler

And someone said earlier that they've never seen Ganondorf do a Warlock Punch or anything similar in Zelda, right? Well just look at the beginning of his fight in Ocarina of Time where he punches the floor with a magic-charged fist:

Spoiler

Let no one say that Ganondorf has never used something like that in Zelda.

In Twilight Princess, he occasionally elbow charges you (similar to his FSmash) and does his Sparta Kick as well.

Spoiler

Behold!

Spoiler

The triforce of power grants it's user sheer super human strength, which he uses to break off his chains and choke the Water Sage to death (inspiration for his Side B)!


So I have to disagree and say that it's not wrong the way Ganon is portrayed in Smash. His moveset takes advantage of his pure power and shows him as the super human he is, capable of crushing his opponents with his bare hands.

Ganondorf may not be the way some people want him to be, specially because his fighting style is not consistent, but you are mistaken to call his moveset wholly inaccurate.

 

[MagiusNecros]

Umm the TP Fight references are VAGUE as hell. Just like most of his attacks in regards to source material.

 

[TheBearsnake]

if were honest here, he should be a fat pig man.

 

[MagiusNecros]

if were honest here, he should be a fat pig man.

Fat Pig Man should be a new Zelda Rep. Wielding a large Trident with whirls and swirls.

 

[HeavyLobster]

Fat Pig Man should be a new Zelda Rep. Wielding a large Trident with whirls and swirls.

If Link and Zelda can both get multiple character slots, why not Ganon/dorf?

 

[MagiusNecros]

If Link and Zelda can both get multiple character slots, why not Ganon/dorf?

Maybe Sakurai wouldn't be able to accurately portray the King of Porkness. *Pig Snort*

 

[Shogger]

I think if it were to be done, the best way of pleasing everyone would be to either move Ganon's current moveset onto another character and then give him his own, or keep him as-is and give him a new character slot and moveset in either Toon Ganondorf or Giant Pig Ganondorf.

 

[MagiusNecros]

I'd rather have Fabudorf from HW over Toon Dorf honestly.

 

[Merkabo]

I'm hoping they make good use of Dlc to solve these sorts of issues people have. Toon Ganon would be badass.

 

[Xevious 1]

Just give Ganondorf's moveset to Black Shadow (makes more sense and adds a F-Zero rep), and give Ganondorf a new moveset.

 

[MagiusNecros]

I don't think Falcondorf is going anywhere.

 

[Xinc]

I don't think Falcondorf is going anywhere.

Definitely won't happen as long as Sakurai is boss.

 

[_Ganondorf_]

Definitely won't happen as long as Sakurai is boss.

Sad truth...

After the interview about Ganon reminding him of his late father I kind of understand the hesitation in changing him. But it's not fair to the character or fans of Zelda Ganodorf.

I see no reason to keep most of his moveset + style intact while changing other key features about him to make everyone happy.

-Aerials stay the same (with some buffs) just with more magic effects and unique animations.
- tilts stay the same *except up tilt should change.
- jab is 2 hits; Melee jab+Brawl jab
- smashes make use of his sword
- Neutral B is dead mans volley *if reflected he can reflect it back by pressing N-B again (he can only reflect his own projectile)
- down B standard will become the Custom 2 Dive Kick. And animation change to become a punch (imagine OoT ground punch but with trajectory of the dive kick).
- up B becomes teleport and the end will be the arm swipe he has now after dark dive (but stronger like custom up B 2)

More unique animation changes to dodges, rolls, get up attacks, pummel, grab, throws (perhaps new throws all together to use more magic) etc.

Play style remains intact except he has more options like a projectile, reflect and his smashs will have a nice range on them.

I don't think anyone would complain if he was changed but kept his "feel/style". That what people really love about the character the "feel".

 

[MagiusNecros]

I don't think that Ganondad interview is even a thing. Just pure fantasy.

 

[_Ganondorf_]

I don't think that Ganondad interview is even a thing. Just pure fantasy.

Oh... Lol my mistake than.

If so though he should for sure make Ganon more close to his canon (the more the better). I don't expect him to I lost a hope by this point. I wish he lets a Zelda fan on his team design his moveset.

And if he really is attached to that moveset give to a different character. People keep mentioning Black Shadow but he can add Hades from Kid Icarus and give him that moveset it is his character after all... But Ganon isn't.

 

[ChronoPenguin]

On a more serious note Ganon does deserve his Trident. And no one in the game uses a spear like weapon yet.

Ganondorf doesn't wield a trident, nor does Ganon in any game that shows Ganondorf.

Given that Ganon isn't playable outside of an On-Rails Final Smash, why would he have his trident?


Ganons moveset is almost it's own entity when you account for Wizard Drop Kick. If Warlock Punch was changed he'd be fairly different from Captain Falcon.

 

[Ryu Myuutsu]

Sad truth...

After the interview about Ganon reminding him of his late father I kind of understand the hesitation in changing him. But it's not fair to the character or fans of Zelda Ganodorf.

I see no reason to keep most of his moveset + style intact while changing other key features about him to make everyone happy.

-Aerials stay the same (with some buffs) just with more magic effects and unique animations.
- tilts stay the same *except up tilt should change.
- jab is 2 hits; Melee jab+Brawl jab
- smashes make use of his sword
- Neutral B is dead mans volley *if reflected he can reflect it back by pressing N-B again (he can only reflect his own projectile)
- down B standard will become the Custom 2 Dive Kick. And animation change to become a punch (imagine OoT ground punch but with trajectory of the dive kick).
- up B becomes teleport and the end will be the arm swipe he has now after dark dive (but stronger like custom up B 2)

More unique animation changes to dodges, rolls, get up attacks, pummel, grab, throws (perhaps new throws all together to use more magic) etc.

Play style remains intact except he has more options like a projectile, reflect and his smashs will have a nice range on them.

I don't think anyone would complain if he was changed but kept his "feel/style". That what people really love about the character the "feel".

I don't know why you speak of giving his own moveset, Ganondorf has had that since he was luigified in Brawl despite predating C. Falcon back in Melee. I think people are confused in this regard and don't mean "unique" moveset but rather a projectile and a his sword. But either way, I think Ganondorf is fine the way he is, his current moveset has him exude power the way he is.

 

[Folt]

To be honest, I'd be really sad if Warlock Punch had to go. It's true that you'll have to land it using quite a good amount of planning, but it's so immensely satisfying to land.

 

[Waluigi is too big]

I am not going to stop saying Ganondorf shouldn't get a new moveset.

Dorfy is perfect the way he is.

 

[Ryu Myuutsu]

To be honest, I'd be really sad if Warlock Punch had to go. It's true that you'll have to land it using quite a good amount of planning, but it's so immensely satisfying to land.

Besides, for those people who worry to much about canonical moves, Ganondorf does use a Warlock Punch-esque move in Ocarina of Time at the beginning of the battle against him.

 

[MagiusNecros]

Ganondorf doesn't wield a trident, nor does Ganon in any game that shows Ganondorf.

Given that Ganon isn't playable outside of an On-Rails Final Smash, why would he have his trident?


Ganons moveset is almost it's own entity when you account for Wizard Drop Kick. If Warlock Punch was changed he'd be fairly different from Captain Falcon.

Phantom Ganon in OoT wields one kiddo.

 

[Folt]

And Phantom Ganon is basically a different character created by Ganondorf.

 

[MagiusNecros]

And Phantom Ganon is basically a different character created by Ganondorf.

Right. In Ganondorf's image. If we want a new moveset true to source Material Pig Ganon or Phantom Ganon seems to be the way to go.

 

[Folt]

Right. In Ganondorf's image. If we want a new moveset true to source Material Pig Ganon or Phantom Ganon seems to be the way to go.

Yes. In Ganondorf's image. Doesn't mean he is Ganondorf or Ganon for that matter.

 

[MagiusNecros]

Yes. In Ganondorf's image. Doesn't mean he is Ganondorf or Ganon for that matter.

Which is irrelevant. PG uses a Trident and that can extend to Dorf. And Ganondorf is the humanoid version of Ganon most prominently known for using the Trident of Power in several Zelda games. And on occasion Dual Swords.

 

[Folt]

Which is irrelevant. PG uses a Trident and that can extend to Dorf. And Ganondorf is the humanoid version of Ganon most prominently known for using the Trident of Power in several Zelda games. And on occasion Dual Swords.

And also magic and fists and kicks.

(And body blows.)

His only consistency between all games is that he is powerful. Really powerful.

Phantom Ganon on the flipside is a rather poor imitation of him, though that is to be expected.

 

[_Ganondorf_]

I don't know why you speak of giving his own moveset, Ganondorf has had that since he was luigified in Brawl despite predating C. Falcon back in Melee. I think people are confused in this regard and don't mean "unique" moveset but rather a projectile and a his sword. But either way, I think Ganondorf is fine the way he is, his current moveset has him exude power the way he is.

My main issue is the laziness that goes into his moveset.
Sakurai has so many options he can do like:
1- Same move set but make all animations unique. So far Ganon still has many cloned animations Fsmash, down smash, Nair, Bair, throws, pummel etc. those can all be changed to be unique but keep them the same.
2- introduce some more magic or sword to his moveset. Like a new magic Nair, DMV for N-B, smashes have use of his sword etc.
And still keep the over all feel and playstyle of the character a few more useful moves, a projectile and sword smashes aren't going to change that.

 

[SmashBro99]

I had such high hopes for Smash Bros Ganondorf when I saw this, he is my favorite video game
villain, the only one who can come close is Albert Wesker from Resident Evil. I hate that he is a clone, I hate that just because he has stayed a clone that itself is a reason to not fix him, but I can understand that updating his moveset now wouldn't be the best idea, he has a certain playstyle and why change it now? This is one of the few things I cannot forgive Sakurai for, he never should have been a clone in the first place. But at least I can play as him, and at least it still feels like Ganondorf (the brutality he shows, the purple effects show a little bit of dark magic/element in his attacks)

At the end of the day, I wish he had Dead Man's Volley, a sword, some projectile magic but whatever, I can play as one of my favorite video game characters, so I can't complain.

 

[MagiusNecros]

Well at least Hyrule Warriors is the first game you can actually play as Ganondorf.

 

[Folt]

First Zelda game at least.

 

[Tonzura Koite]

Please, no more sword characters.

Ganondorf has diverged from Falcon to an extent that the Sm4sh Ganon feels closer to what he's all about in our eyes (brutality and savage punishment) than if he were made to use his keep-away techniques from his own games, albeit in an abstract way. Similar arguments could be made that Fox's side-b and up-b make no sense for character, but would replacing them be better for the game?

I see where you're coming from, but in my opinion, there comes a point in the evolution of a franchise that certain aspects take on a life of their own and become important to the legacy of the franchise in question. Iconic Smash moves have arisen seemingly out of nowhere. The Smash portrayals of the characters we know and love have been made all their own. Look at how so many of Sonic's moves are a dull variation on "I spindash at you" in the interest of keeping Sonic close to the original games.
It sort of stifles originality in a fighting game character.

Edit: Giving Ganon a hover or something similar would be fine, but as someone who plays Ganon as a close secondary because I love his playstyle, I don't want my toys taken away and replaced. Add, don't replace.

 

[_Ganondorf_]

Please, no more sword characters.

Ganondorf has diverged from Falcon to an extent that the Sm4sh Ganon feels closer to what he's all about in our eyes (brutality and savage punishment) than if he were made to use his keep-away techniques from his own games, albeit in an abstract way. Similar arguments could be made that Fox's side-b and up-b make no sense for character, but would replacing them be better for the game?

I see where you're coming from, but in my opinion, there comes a point in the evolution of a franchise that certain aspects take on a life of their own and become important to the legacy of the franchise in question. Iconic Smash moves have arisen seemingly out of nowhere. The Smash portrayals of the characters we know and love have been made all their own. Look at how so many of Sonic's moves are a dull variation on "I spindash at you" in the interest of keeping Sonic close to the original games.
It sort of stifles originality in a fighting game character.

Edit: Giving Ganon a hover or something similar would be fine, but as someone who plays Ganon as a close secondary because I love his playstyle, I don't want my toys taken away and replaced. Add, don't replace.

I disagree with this whole heatedly! he was barely changed at all from Brawl. And he still shares way too many moves and animations with C. Falcon to be considered unique. And how would Sword smashes, a new N-B, a new Up tilt with maybe a new Nair and some new throws and making each of his animations be unique and differ from Falcon would change the character too much? I can almost guarantee that 99% of current Ganon mains would love these types of changes if they were done in Smash 4/5. people don't like change until they see it in action. See what happened with Project M Ganon; someone said he will be getting a float + a reflector and he got laughed at and everyone hated the idea. As soon as they saw it in action everyone loved it.